is it possible to get decent shoulders without roids?

>>76455961 (OP)
its a total misconception that shoulder/traps only get huge with roids. With good muscle insertions and clavicle length its possible to get that juiced look.. its genetics, so for some people its just not possible, even with roids.

>>76455961 (OP)
Define decent?

If you really put on effort you can do shoulder press with 225lbs, but your shoulders will never be as impressive as an enhanced guy

>>76455961 (OP)
The trick is never letting tensions off the delt. Jeff Millard shit is retard, just jeeep tensions on the details of its cables or dumbbells you’ll get a good pump, eventually slowly move up in wieight.


I don’t even agree that a compound should be done first, ir heavy presses, as upper chest and tris take over heavy presses, better to pre fatigue to delta then move onto heavy presses

Approved

>>76455961 (OP)
Decent sure, but you won't get fat cannonball.
If you can do them without fucking yourself up, I've had the best results with upright rows and behind the neck presses

>>76455961 (OP)
>>76455967
>>76456044
>>76456069
>>76456111
The answer has always been Spam Lateral Raises!!!

>>76455961 (OP)
Depends on what you consider decent, nowadays the difference in shape is very distinct between natty and roided. Regardless, OHP is the answer.

>>76455961 (OP)
yea but current training styles are not made for that in mind
deltoids are made of mostly type 1 muscle fibers which means that they should be trained in different manners, most notably more sets and reps than usual

>t. the only guy in the gym that got shoulder DOMS
copy my shoulder workout:
>sitting military press (4x15)
>side lateral raises (4x15-20)
>rear delt fly machine (4x12)
>waiter walks (6x10 meters each hand, slow walk)
>farmer carry (main function of delts, 3x10 meters)
you will get shoulder doms

>>76455961 (OP)
Climbing

>>76456190
DOMS is a below substandard indicator of muscle hypertrophy

>>76456251
Your mother is a substandard pussy yet your father still had a go on it

>>76456257
Lmao
>>76456190
After the pump is gone they're small again, it sucks.

>>76456129
Going from 85 to 155 on OHP over the course of few months has given me pretty big shoulders. I do side db raises but OHP is definately why I have nice shoulders

>>76456289
>after the pump is gone
Muscle hyperthrophy, especially the myofibrillar and sarcoplastic kind usually take a long time, with much frequency

Even though it is not same muscle tissue type there was one crazy scientists that found you could increase dick size by injecting vasodilators alongside test in dick and have it edged for few hours a week to have it increase size, I assume thats why roidtrannies do so much volume, to just force muscle to take in the androgens

For long lasting results you want myofibrillar packing which takes conditions like lower overall body inflamation (so body can focus on specific area inflamation)

Science faggots try to proxy hyperthrophy with strength values even though that is flawed, then they backpedal and say that frequency is key. Volume and frequency is key, do baby weights for 100 reps once a week and you will have bigger shoulders than science faggots that do 3 reps every day

>>76456117
this. easy and it works.

Hold the bands like this, but instead of going out to your side, bring your arms up from your side, to over your head, like a dumbbell front shoulder raise, but going all the way over your head, while holding constant tension.

>ohp as staple of upper-body instead of bench
>actually well-developed deltoids and no Weider tits
>spare your rotator cuffs, can lift well into old age
there is really no downside. don't listen to the homosexual cult of bodybuilders

>>76455961 (OP)
Treat your side delts like they are as important as your chest, which in your case... they are.

So if you are doing 6-8 working sets to failure or 1 RIR for Chest... do the same for side delts. Don't fall into the "accessory lift" powershart meme.

bros i saw the mythical 1/2/3/4 Chad today i think. he was doing 2plate incline bench press for easy reps and he went on to OHP 1 plate later.

>>76456297
Kg?

>>76456663
>155 kg OHP

>>76456297
>Going from 85 to 155 on OHP over the course of few months
how? i swear to god OHP is the only thing that wont increase im hell stuck

>>76456653
>there is really no downside
what about lower back damage or losing a good inch in height? i hear thats why people shit on ohp usually

>can't ohp more than 95lbs
I'm not gonna make it :(

>>76455961 (OP)
(Assuming you're already doing heavy horizontal presses and thus already have your front delts taken care of)
- Switch from OHP to BTN press, and press straight up from the low/mid bar position (warm-up very carefully/thoroughly and pyramid your way up before you do your working sets)
- Switch from DB shoulder press to Arnold press
- Switch from DB lateral raises to DB Lu raises with normal lateral raises as mechanical drop set once you have Lu raised to failure
- Similarly switch cable lateral raises (if you have it in your routine) to cable Y-raises and use normal raises as mechanical drop set
- Upright rows -> wide grip overhead front raises, same as the previous 2

With all of these, you will not be lifting as heavy as your normal presses and raises but fret not, your normal presses and raises will still progress even if you don't do them, as you progress with these lifts.
Also do not neglect your rear delts, do your face pulls/reverse flys/cable pull-aparts (I'd recommend sideways machine reverse flys) at least once per week

>>76457871
>muh lu raise
stopped reading there and completely discarded the rest of what you said. you're a youtube memer that doesn't go to the gym

>>76455961 (OP)
Lat raises, OHP, mobility exercises to help keep everything in the right position and proportional.

>>76457875
>non-argument
And no one cares what you have to say, woman.

>>76457875
lu raises are god-tier, mobilitylet

>>76457871
This is a post engineered to trap noobs lmao
add it to the sticky

>>76457891
>she resorts to samefagging
No wonder this site's slowly dying off. Too many women/low-T numales

>>76457905
You're a saboteur just like Arnold was

>>76457875

Nah liu raises are goated, you don't know shit if you don't like them.

>>76457670

>or losing a good inch in height

I doubt you will lose an inch in height from OHP.

>what about lower back damage

Once I started tighting my glutes on OHP, I've never felt any back pain again whatsoever.

>>76457949
>>76457888
meme shit you saw on youtube and you don't work out

>>76457931
>I discovered how to turn off (you)
If I were a saboteur, I'd recommend continuing spamming lateral raises and train HIT like a methhead. Please. You have neither an argument, nor experience, nor result to show, ramjesh.

>>76457958
>continuing spamming
Why is it always the ESLs calling other people ESLs? lol. Your shit grammar always clocks you. Go away now

>>76457973
>still no argument
>no feat, no physique
Post tits.

>>76456313
Okay so by that logic if u want to grow biceps and back super fast I am better off just spamming chin ups and no other exercises so my body can focus on just dealing with growing that?

And if I do other exercises in different body parts it would slow down the growth in that area?


Is that really true? If I cut myself once that single cut heals faster than if I get 3 cuts?

>>76457983
this kind of common sense logic explodes anything a sciencetard has ever said about fitness

>>76457958
in only one of the two replies? how?

>>76457979
are you the same schizo calling everyone a woman in like 5 threads yesterday and today? get a tripcode dude

>>76457989
Idk if it's true or not but in general I am so angry the human body without blasting test has horrible recovery speed, I have never envied roiders for the extra gains but I do envy the recovery speed, I hate worrying about optimal training and recovery so I can grow 2 kilos if muscle per year instead of one, if I could just live in the gym and exercise and eat all day I would

>smallest shoulders among my gym group
>can bench and OHP 20kg more than them if not more
i hate myselff

>>76456251
The only true indicator of muscle hypertrophy is progressive overload. People chase DOMS and pump and end up doing high volume. That’s why all the guys in the 70s were in the gym for hours every day. They didn’t know any better

>>76457997
Either you remove it from storage (idk, never looked into how 4chanx/xt handles this stuff), or just good ol' Inspect/Inspect Elements
>>76458004
People don't realize it, but the way they write reveals more about themselves than just whether they're samefagging (thru their grammar and words usage, obviously). It also reveals the way they think. There's literally an online tool to determine whether a block of text is written by a man or a woman (cognitively male or female), and it's not even AI (not needed for this simple shit). To spot a cogfem (women, jews, MENA turdies, low-T numales/jeets, and fundies/actual schizos) is EASY, especially when all they can hurl at you are substanceless adhoms.
Also, nah. That's probably the "bot :D" fag. I rarely visit/interact with this site anymore precisely because of the quality of discussion you see above.

>>76458018
Instead of being a gym obsessed rat just get better in every facet of life in the meantime, use recovery to learn a new language or study philosophy or programming. Mike Mentzer said it nicely.

But there are also things you can do to increase your natural recovery speed, namely the timing of food intake. Carb loading few hours before training, sodium/potassium bicarbonate loading too, then carb immediatelly after workout (with fiber) and then protein (fiber slows down insulin spike and helps with better protein absorption), zinc and vitamin D3 are a must, zinc wont be absorbed without copper etc etc

>>76455961 (OP)
>higher freq less intense sessions(save joints, egolifting presses is usually done by people who dont prioritize it over legs and shit they just do other shit the rest of the week after maxing bench once or twice)
>abs/serratus brace, find where your shoulders dont move around i like thumbless narrow super strict super light, and try to get the muscle to failure over the movement
>just doing a bunch of different lifts to keep front/mid/rear even enough, rear delts can actually get massive compared to front and mid

just dont start your lifting day with shoulders or some stupid shit you gotta bench first, then delts then arms etc. if you roid you wont be able to build a sick chest 99% of the time without neglecting delts or vice versa because of joints being worse than natural then when you stop using for a few days you deflate massively.

>>76458323
>always hit delts after chest
I will sometimes do delts the day after chest/delts, or chest etc shits kinda nice but pushes your lifting week back if its 2 serious sessions. I prefer one to 2 days between muscle groups then a 3-4 day rest after a week or 2 over a traditional powerlifting block, its more of a hypertrophy program.

Shooting for 1234 this year. Prioritizing it in that order, 1 then 2 then 3 then 4. Took me maybe 4 months to take OHP from 90lbs to 1pl8 by making it the main lift. I do it first thing twice a week, chest second, and will continue this until I'm OHP the 1pl8 for reps. Just getting stronger has given me noticeable shoulder gains that lateral raises never did.
>just hit 1 for 1rep on OHP last month
>bench 165ish but I've been slacking on it
>squat lmao 45lbs I don't want to talk about it
>diddly 275lbs
I've got a barrel chest to start with, so I'm less worried about bench press aesthetically, but shoulders and arms need really filling out.

>>76455961 (OP)
Yes with a delta raise machine, something every gym should have but few do. You can't get proper leverage to lift heavy with cables or dumbells, it's pointless because even someone strong can only max at around 20lbs. It has to be the proper machine to isolate without the leverage being so fucking far from your shoulders.

>>76456190
Is this true for people with ACTN3 double deletion who dont form type 2 muscle fibers? That's 18% of whites.

>>76458514
How would you even figure out you have that? You can't bother with untestable variables - just sounds like an excuse.

>>76457617
only a real man

>>76458514
that's not even what no actn3 means you midwit

>>76458514
if you train power you develop more type 2, its called myrofibular vs sarcoplasmic training. if you took some random person and trained them right some scientist would say they have the genetics for strength or whatever.

>>76457875
You're right. All the retards frothing at the mouth to your comment. Traps take over once your arms go above parallel to the ground

>>76458058
That just means you have more advantageous insertions for strength. It doesn't take the same amount of muscle for people to move the same weight

>>76455967
but clavicles grow with hgh/test with heavy training, hypertrophy obviously results in more balloon like muscles. look at anyone benching above 5pl8s and then look at a picture of them as a college freshman.

>>76458649
just push from upper stomach and ribcage, need a super narrow footing. and yeah you usually fail the rep when its too light at humerus parallel to ground thats why you need to do half reps starting from a high rack.

>>76458573
>How would you even figure out you have that?
muscle biopsy
>You can't bother with untestable variables -
thats why you biopsy the muscle.
>just sounds like an excuse.
whats your excuse for not knowing the answer to this simple question

>>76458649

And this is a bad thing why? You're acting like the delts go slack at the top, when the fact of the matter is they're still being engaged, still used just with less tension.
>Not wanting to train your arms and shoulders through the full natural range of motion

side delt externally rotates shoulder while humerus is 90 degs abducted - so i just hold light dumbbell as if i was holding high handlebars motorcycle, shoulder must be dropped though and this requires u to understand and have control over scapula
>is it like upright row sorta?
sorta, without all the unnecessary bullshit though

>>76458736
Lmao, you're sitting here recommending a $5000 procedure to justify laziness. Just go lift, mang.

>>76458739
Longer rom doesn't necessarily mean better hypertrophy. If you want to extend rom it should be from the beginning of the lateral raise

>>76458739
It's even funnier when you consider the fact that the Lu raise IS the old way of doing lateral raises and isn't some new trendy "optimal exercise" thing. The snow angel raises dated all the way back to Vince Gironda's time at the very least ffs. I suspect the "normal" lateral raises was invented by some roidtroons later because they lacked overhead mobility due to having too much muscle and was afraid their muscles/tendons/ligaments would snap because of roidtrooning side effect

>>76458856
range of motion of multiple joints has zero to do with muscle hypertrophy, u need only the part where muscle works and nothing is fucked:
>>76458809
>side delt externally rotates shoulder while humerus is 90 degs abducted - so i just hold light dumbbell as if i was holding high handlebars motorcycle, shoulder must be dropped though and this requires u to understand and have control over scapula
>>is it like upright row sorta?
>sorta, without all the unnecessary bullshit though

>>76455961 (OP)
yes. but not for you unless you have good genetics. next

>>76458875
>range of motion of multiple joints has zero to do with muscle hypertrophy, u need only the part where muscle works and nothing is fucked
So it's all good then? Your delts still have to work in the overhead portion, even if your traps kick in (just do a few sets of power shrugs beforehand if you're afraid of your traps taking over that much). And you have the benefit of going full ROM and thus bulletproof your shoulder joints in the long run.

>>76455961 (OP)
Do Arnold Press.
No need to thank me.

>>76457670
believe it or not you can OHP without egolifting and folding your lubar spine in half to
>geeeet it uuuupppp yeah brotheerrrr

>>76458924
yes it's all good when traps do nothing cause they lay dormant as u load side delt in isometric hold:
>>76458809
>side delt externally rotates shoulder while humerus is 90 degs abducted - so i just hold light dumbbell as if i was holding high handlebars motorcycle, shoulder must be dropped though and this requires u to understand and have control over scapula
>>is it like upright row sorta?
>sorta, without all the unnecessary bullshit though

>but is it good to upright row lu raises?
no it's not good, 1st of all u ain't getting any delt
secondly - u get fucked shoulders pronto

i am great proponent of distilling the motion to it's working component and making it into isometric hold, provided the motion can be saved
u can save bench/pushup like this:
>>76449345
with protraction of shoulder, and i just did the same to upright row now - also with control of scapula

>>76458988
> u get fucked shoulders pronto
And moving your shoulder joints thru the same motion as an OHP or a snatch but with even less weight gets it fucked because...?
You have neither the reasoning nor the physqiue, not even "le science", to back up any of your BS. Get your chatgpt-ass reply elsewhere, botnigger.

>>76455961 (OP)
Yes. Just don't be a retard and train with good form and awareness of biomechanics. No. Not the retarded Kike Israel meme biomechanics or the retarded stretch fetishists who have terrible results in spite of decades of training. The real biomechanics that kinesiologists have known for decades:
>range of motion with optimal actin and myosin overlap
>lowering the weight so that you're actually abducting the humerus instead of orienting the torso to move as much weight as possible
>not trying to get as much rom as possible which ends up taking tension off the muscle
Let's apply these principles. Lateral Raises:
>15 to 90 degrees of shoulder abduction; don't go all the way don't and don't go past the torso since the lateral head is not active from 0 to 15 degrees, stop concentric when arms are parallel to the floor
>reduce the load so you can move the cable or dumbbell without any sort of swing or orientation of the torso
>don't lift the shoulders
>slow down your concentric to avoid swinging, hold at the top for a second, then lower relatively slowly stopping short of 15 degrees
Shoulder press:
>bar stops just below the chin, going below can deload the delts and go into a portion of the rom where the delts go through active insufficiency
>do not try converge with your hands at the top, this is all traps since you are orienting the torso; it's better to avoid this to keep tension on the delts
>keep rom to within range where delts have tension 100% of the time
>slow down the rep speed to prevent any sort of cheating and to better control form and technique
And yes. Shorter rom where you keep tension on the muscle is better than going into positions at the end of rom where tension is lost, i.e. going for extreme "stretches."

>>76455961 (OP)
yeah bench for power and do delts 3x/wk

>>76459014
>And moving your shoulder joints thru the same motion as an OHP or a snatch but with even less weight gets it fucked because...?
frankly don't care huwhy :D all i care is to how to load muscle in question with continuous time under tension, like so:
>>76458809
>side delt externally rotates shoulder while humerus is 90 degs abducted - so i just hold light dumbbell as if i was holding high handlebars motorcycle, shoulder must be dropped though and this requires u to understand and have control over scapula
>>is it like upright row sorta?
>sorta, without all the unnecessary bullshit though
without fucking anything up :D
cause there's so much to fuck up :D i just want to skip to the muscle building part of idiotic motion that will cripple any human with enough intensity/volume/sheer weight/repetition, like just doing sth that nearly breaks bones or snaps tendons or straight up abuses em for no fucking reason whatsoever
>yeah i know this there is flopping over sth and it is a tad shakey loose and achy, but i gotta complete the movement in full range, gotta lift tha weight gotta make the motion
well yeah u've got it all backwards :D no u don't D:
>>76449307

>>76459236
You are a retarded windowlicker.

>>76459236
>Hey honey, can you raise your hand and get that jar on the upper shelf to your left?
>No, you stupid bitch. Don't you know that's gonna snap my poor widdle paper shoulders?????? D:
IOW, you have nothing other than re-chanting your own BS thinking it's somehow legit retort and people would be convinced when instead of utterly and completely revealing and self-humiliating how weak, small and retarded you are.

>>76456190
i'm gonna do gvt 10x10 for db ohp and rear delt flies.
volume is king, probably.

>>76457871
>Switch from DB shoulder press to Arnold press
Here's another hot tip for leg day: intersperse every back squat with a cha cha slide

>>76455967
>its genetics
cool contribution thanks

thoughts on these?