Thread 105832168

FACT: C will never go away and will outlive C++ and Rust

>>105832168 (OP)
I doubt it.

>>105832168 (OP)
It won't go away as long as there are autists writing software for old devices

Are there new(ish) major C projects out there that actively chose C, instead of basically being forced to use C (non kernel/hardware/embedded... stuff)?

>>105832168 (OP)
LONDON
O
N
D
O
N

>>105832408
mostly libraries that are built for performance like sqlite, compression libs, etc. It is literally impossible to port sqlite to rust for example, since sqlite uses bit arithmetic to cheat performance out of CPUs.

>>105832168 (OP)
TRUKE

>>105832168 (OP)
Maybe. So what?

>>105832168 (OP)
who is this, OP

>>105832444
>sqlite
that's a doubly-funny mention since
1. sqlite is definitely not new.
2. https://github.com/tursodatabase/turso

>>105832444
>sqlite uses bit arithmetic to cheat performance out of CPUs
What?

>>105832472
>build simple db app to log temperature of sensors
>its a 500mb executable
>might as well just install MSSQL

>>105832168 (OP)
who dis in pic?

>>105832502
for example using the first bit of a 64byte reference to distinguish if its a pointer or a 63bit long string so that you can text search faster by saving yourself a memory operation. In rust this is illegal, reinterpreting memory is dangerous, only reinterpreting genitalia is legal and encouraged.

why do /r/ust users always try to casually inject their obscure meme language into C/C++ conversations? is this some kind of gaslighting?

>>105832469
>>105832506
have fun she a cute https://www.instagram.com/boople__snoot/

>>105832168 (OP)
what can c do that c++ cant?

>>105832539
nothing is "illegal" in rust. this can be done with unsafe.
with rust's definition of safety, 100% of C code is unsafe. but with rust, this "trick" would be nicely, AND SAFELY, abstracted away with a type-safe enum return. that is if it would be deemed required to begin with.

>>105832505
4jeet is not sending its best

>>105832539
Pointer tagging is not "ilegal" in Rust, IMHO pointer tagging should be banned, it may works now on some systems (or all of them), but there maybe a case on the future when users may need to use the full address space or address space randomization. I say fuck pointer tagging.

>>105832168 (OP)
You will never be a woman

>>105832408
I chose C over C++ for a small webassembly image processing project. Mostly so I could use variable length arrays. C++ could have been used but it wouldn't have made anything easier.

>>105832589
Variable length arrays (VLA).
https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/language/array.html
int main(void)
{
int n = 1;
label:;
int a[n]; // re-allocated 10 times, each with a different size
printf("The array has %zu elements\n", sizeof a / sizeof *a);
if (n++ < 10)
goto label; // leaving the scope of a VLA ends its lifetime
}

>>105833611
if the only other option is C++, i would stick with C too, but thankfully, Rust exists. hopefully other options will emerge too, although nothing serious has appeared on the horizon yet.
"VLAs" is a horrible reason to give, and you should stop using them, even if you're sticking with C.
your example is doubly stupid, because VLAs are for when the size is only known at run-time, but in your example, it's all known at compile-time.

>>105832168 (OP)
>thread about C
>Rustrannies make it about themsevles

>>105833741
Look again, n changes in that example.
Another example is using a VLA for a multidimensional array as a parameter to a function.
void transpose(int w, int h, const float in[h][w], float out[w][h]);

Sure you can pass raw pointers and do the index calculations yourself but this is cleaner and easier.

>>105834107
>Look again, n changes in that example.
all n values are known at compile-time.
your other example is valid... and an easy way to trigger random stack overflows.
a real solution involves higher-level typed-safe abstraction over (possibly) heap-allocated memory, but that's not possible in C. see rust's ndarray crate for an example.

>>105833611
you mean a vector? cpp has that.

>>105834419
It doesn't matter if all values of n are known at compile time, the size of a[n] has to change every iteration. Not sure there's any way to do something like that in C++. I never found a way.

>>105833974
>namedrop thing
>bitch and moan when people talk about thing
woman detected

Name one company/field that uses C over C++ except MAYBE embedded systems.

>>105834472
No, not a vector. A std::vector is on the heap, a local array is on the stack. It's a big difference because stack allocations are free and heap allocations are very expensive.

>>105834509
sepples is still king for gamedev whether anyone likes it or not

>>105833611
> int main (void)
> goto label
> VLA
> no main function return
this is the most insane post i have ever seen by a long shot. vla's can fail randomly at runtime, this is not something you want. arrays of unknown size should always heap allocated, because you can properly handle a failure. this is not something that would make someone chose c over c++.

>>105832179
Cope
>>105832469
>>105832586
Dirty coomers. Have sex.
>>105832589
Be a sane and pragmatic language, instead of a huge dumping ground of broken features.

>>105834513
The only good part is what it inherited from C. Everything else about C++ is pure dogshit.

>>105834684
c does not support metaprogramming, polymorphism, or references.

>>105832168 (OP)
You're probably not wrong
>>105832308
True, but mostly big corpo with incredibly old software

>>105834513
>>105834684
>>105834727
The funny thing is that everyone avoids the STL like a plague.

>>105832168 (OP)
Coding is a meme.

>>105834472
STL is at minimum expensive and at worst retarded. starting with the name vector for this use case

>>105834513
that's c plus, you dolt

>>105834727
oh no its retarded dot jpg

>>105832680
>abstracted away with a type-safe enum
This kind of stuff is actively done by the compiler for Option and Result already. Also, nothing stopping from special casing this for different architectures already.

>>105832680
this is your brain without your dick, jfc

eventually the only new c code will be people just making new bootstrap compilers.

>>105832570
little brother syndrome.
rustoids have it really bad

>>105832472
>ALPHA
>Turso
>PRODUCTION READY
>Turso Cloud

>Turso is a distributed database built on libSQL, a fork of SQLite.
>libSQL is a fork of SQLite that is both Open Source, and Open Contributions.
>libSQL is 85% written in C

>Cloud pricing

>Turso Database is currently under heavy development and is not ready for production use.

WTF is this scam? Rebrand it as Rust, while it's basically still just a C project forked from Sqlite, but now you have to pay for cloud services? Despite Sqlite originally being about being in-process?
I guess there is also SQLite Cloud, which doesn't rebrand with Rust.

>>105835511
>make a rust wrapper for untouched open source c code
>put it behind a subscription
>offer comped daily HRT delivery (monday-thursday) for a team of up to 30 with the enterprise subscription package
>troons will gobble it up and nag their CTO to subscribe to it
many such cases

>>105834674
>Posts lust provoking image
>Calls other anons dirty coomers

>>105835941
>lust provoking image
>it's literally just a blurry image of a feminine looking humanoid in full clothing

>>105832168 (OP)
upscale attempt

>>105835894
I assume that they must have added some changes. But the marketing and naming is messy, possibly confusing on purpose, as part of branding.

>>105835982
just give up at this point, this is horrible

>>105832539
kek, made me lol Anon

>>105832168 (OP)
Fang

>>105832168 (OP)
this
People don't realize that C is more than just a language. It will forever be a way to glue different languages together with bindings. C benefits from the success of other languages, the more popular Rust gets, the more people will want to integrate it to their huge golang, js, ruby codebases

>>105834843
the next sentence of what you quoted hinted at that. i just didn't want to get too technical because of the level and nature of non-knowers here ;)

>>105832168 (OP)
open bob

>>105832586
>generic trend hopping tiktok/instagram thot #35628

>>105832472
>rustranny project
>mit loicence
I'm noooticing

>>105832586
goddess

>>105832168 (OP)
COBOL and Fortran are still around too!

although C gives us the ABI that everyone else piggybacks on, so that's immensely useful until we solve the problem for real (any decade now)

>>105837879
>thinks sqlite is GPL
4jeet is not sending its best

>>105832539
>a 63bit long string

>>105832762
>36MB when the same library in C is 300KB

>>105837921
>until we solve the problem for real
this
rewriting shit in a new language won't change a thing

>>105832168 (OP)
if troons looked like this I would learn Rust

>>105834663
>fail randomly
It would fail if there was a stack overflow I suppose.
>not something you want
It might be.
>because you can properly handle a failure
Does anyone actually put an exception handler around std::vector in case allocation fails? I guess you could.
Anyway C is not about being safe it's about being fast and simple and getting the job done and moving on. Presumably the author has some idea of the actual size of the VLA and has taken care that the stack size is going to be large enough.
If a programmer doesn't have a good sense of what's going on then yeah stick to Rust or Python or something where it's harder to mess up.

>>105832168 (OP)
Name one standard C project made in last 5 years.

>>105835982
she's giving me the hairy eye

>>105838547
linux

FACT: JavaScript will never go away and will outlive TypeScript

>>105832168 (OP)
it already outlived c++.

>>105832168 (OP)
Rustranny probably.
I see no reason why C++ would go away if C never does.

>>105838658
unfortunately

>>105838721
why? types will come to vanilla javascript, don't know why but it will happen. fuck microsoft and fuck typescript
https://github.com/tc39/proposal-type-annotations

>>105838014
>rust 500MB
>C 300KB
>muh binary size most important (smaller better)

>>105838748
*when

>>105838748
actually I wanted both javascript and typescript gone but thanks for the link, I didn't know that

>>105838773
ah okay, you're a bad boy, since I am a JS/TS dev I hope TS goes away and JS becomes types

>>105838765
I'm scared of whatever is wrong with your brain being infectious

>>105838773
>actually I wanted both javascript and typescript gone
Same. I want a bytecode VM that can access the DOM. Then we could use whatever language we want and compile it.

>>105838787
I have to maintain an angular application and the braindead devs did it in typescript but just :any everything so I want to die every time I see a ticket for that fucken thing

>>105838876
>:any everything
lmao this is terrible, I have started working in a web dev/software agency after studies (am still there) and never saw :any, as a beginner I saw some really weird typescript shit which melted my brain but after some time I learned and understood what those senior devs did. You should talk to this people who do this with the :any or write some comments when they try to merge request.

>>105838928
they have all left or been fired. and management expects you to take exactly the required amount of time to fix a bug or implement a feature for working on any ticket.
asking them for a little bit of time to refactor what, to them, is working fine is no different than asking for time to play snooker at the recreation room all day.
I hope whatever TS project you're working on is saner than that.

>>105838964
>I hope whatever TS project you're working on is saner than that.
it is a mix of htmx, tsx/jsx, nestjs. the senior dev made his own "framework" and yeah, it was really really hard for me as a beginner but it all makes sense now. I think the most difficult part was the weird types they used and nestjs

>>105838964
>>105839007
and alpinejs

>>105838862
not allowing webassembly access to the dom is the biggest ploy from Big Script to hinder any advancement to the human race

>>105838964
>management expects you to take exactly the required amount of time
I hate them so much

>>105838862
You are describing wasm.

>>105839119
Wasm can't interact with the DOM or browser.

>>105832586
>>105832469
>>105832506
>>105834674
>>105837836
>>105837908
>doesn't have an onlyfans
Why do promote whores that just tease and won't give you anything to actually jerk off to?

>>105838620
Linux
>Standard C
>made in last 5 years

>>105840123
linux is constantly being made. in fact if you look at the commit history you'll see things being made in the last few hours or days

>>105840214
Linux is neither standard C nor was it made in last 5 years.

>>105840235
wrong.

>>105840381
Try to compile mainline Linux with clang and report back.

>>105832408
Yeah one of my side projects is in C. It's just easier to get into the flow with because you don't have to stop every five minutes to read documentation for other people's stuff.

>>105840592
works fine

>>105840822
It doesn't because Linux relies on nonstandard, GCC extensions.

https://maskray.me/blog/2024-05-12-exploring-gnu-extensions-in-linux-kernel

Why do cniles always lie and pretend to know more than they do?

>>105840914
imagine not using --std=c89 in current year

>>105841058
That's how it always has been. Standard C is really not suitable for such an ambitious project.

>>105840822
this is why you can never trust "werks for me" posters.

>>105841075
i would like to know what non standard gcc shit they are using

>>105839717
https://coomer.su/onlyfans/user/booplesnoot/
She does have an OnlyFans, anon.

>>105841183
Click the link 3 replies above?

>>105841183
none. that poster is a liar as evidenced by their own source.

>>105840822
It does? Last time I tried, the kernel insta crashed. I know they've been working on it for some time and I think I actually got a clang build kernel to modeset and actually run an init once.

Being able to go all in on clang distro would be really nice for autism purity reasons.

>>105834674
>having sex will cure your porn addiction
Quite the contrary, being a coomer makes sex difficult. Anyone with a brain unwarped by 24/7 gooning understands this.

>>105839316
It can interact with the DOM through JavaScript currently, but there is also the component model that is being drafted by some standards committee. I don't really care, I don't want a bytecode VM that can access the DOM myself, I hate the web and hope that AI destroys what's left of it. But you can already write your slick heckin' PWA in any language that compiles to wasm as long as you bind it to JS.

>>105840914
Clang supports std=gnu11, here's the official documentation on building Linux with Clang/LLVM: https://docs.kernel.org/kbuild/llvm.html

>>105841075
There is nothing so exotic about Linux or the idea of a multi-platform Unix-like kernel that standard C would be unsuitable, in fact it's literally the paradigmatic use case that they designed the standard around. But you would be right to imply that the de facto standard to which anyone would write a new C compiler in the current year would be the actual extant code that its users will want to compile and not whatever ISO says the standard should be. Clang and GCC are obviously both designed to function in the world their big corporate backers exist in.

>>105832168 (OP)
At least she doesn't have tattoos

>>105832168 (OP)
AI enhanced compilers will make C and C++ even more efficient. Just like they already have with video codes (and are backwards compatible with existing decoders)

>>105841709
>she

>>105841709
>womb tattoo
anon, i..........

>>105841748
no bulge. all foid. sorry to disappoint faggots.

>>105832408
>major
Who cares?

>>105834674
>Cope
Dude, no. C++ sucks and Rust is worse but it doesn't mean that C is a good language. You can think of C as the Rust of the 70s (or 80s) forced by government and Bell Labs.

>>105833611
Nobody is using VLAs, please stop using VLAs.

>>105841841
no, you cant

>>105841709
she has a literal womb tattoo you blind retard

she's still a 10/10 but you gotta be real

>>105841696
>Clang supports std=gnu11
Not standard

>>105842065
>she

>>105832168 (OP)
Give it 100 years and the only use of c will be to teach about computer history.

>>105841860
It's the true.

>>105842093
check >>105841203 if that's a dude then we've hit a point where it literally doesn't matter anymore

>>105841203
>softcore shit
welp

>>105842146
oh well if tony hoare said it, then you must be right
don't tell me what i want to do with my own software. i want complete control. i want performance. yes, really. i write scientific software than runs for days at a time on a compute cluster and it must be 1) correct and 2) fast. that retarded boomer can boomer all over whatever he was booming and handshaking and bootstrapping on at the time.

>>105841748
>>105842093
How can you tell?

>>105842462
bitches show teeth when they smile
the finger aspect ratio looks more on the dude side
oh yeah, the madams apple

>>105842507
this place has forever rotted your brain. hope you get better someday, anon.

>>105842507
Do you know how she's able to look that feminine? Her head to shoulder ratio seems right. Her hips seem wide. Her Q angle might be right. And she has the hourglass figure. But I might've been able to confirm her finger digit ratio being male.
>[...] show teeth when they smile
Do you recall where you learned that?

>>105832168 (OP)
TRVKE

>>105841767
>>105842065
And the only one
Looks like shit but way better than putting doodles all over your body

>>105842665
https://www.bradford.ac.uk/news/archive/2018/is-your-smile-male-or-female.php

theres plenty of peer reviewed papers on pubmed on the topic

>>105842665
have you not seen how fat bitches manipulate camera angles and lighting to hide 50-80 pounds?

>>105832168 (OP)
20 years ago this girl would have been a typical innocent quirk chungus and now she's making millions of dollars on onlyfans

>>105841696
I hate the web too, it was a disaster almost from the start.
>as long as you bind it to JS.
Yeah that's a problem if you want performance. Better to just do it all in JS at this point.

it will def go away most of freebsd is written in c++ for example

>>105842087
it is standard in most compilers

>>105841709
Wife material

>>105842796
>Looks like shit but way better than putting doodles all over your body
true. but a womb tattoo is "whore of babylon" tier. litteral succubus.

>>105842796
>womb tattoo
>better than random doodles
Cope of the century

>>105843300
Hot

>>105832168 (OP)
she's pointing the wrong way

>>105843300
>>105843757
Cope

>>105841512
If you just stop for a week you return to betting completely fine

>>105832168 (OP)
true but C++ is never going away either

>>105832168 (OP)
>will outlive C++
Nothing will outlive C++.

>>105842112
C will probably persist as a protocol for inter-language interaction. Only a retard would use it for anything other than that, but it'll probably be used in that role forever.

>>105845073
according to tiobe, c is the #4 language this month, in a bit of a low, but not its worst showing.
fortran is #10. if the first language is still around and at the #10 spot after 70 fucking years, then i think its safe to say C is going to be around for a very long time.

>>105832408
Yeah, plus lots of people use C to target WASM since it's the only standardized ABI out there.

This is a bad thread and the OP is a bad poster.

https://materialize.com/blog/rust-concurrency-bug-unbounded-channels/
https://media.defense.gov/2022/Nov/10/2003112742/-1/-1/0/CSI_SOFTWARE_MEMORY_SAFETY.PDF
https://bpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/sites.gatech.edu/dist/a/2878/files/2022/10/OSSI-Final-Report-3.pdf
https://archive.ph/uLiWX
https://archive.ph/rESxe
https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/6/1292

>>105834501
I myself just replicated the functionality of a stack using 1 static heap allocation.

>>105839007
>the senior dev made his own "framework"
why do senior retards do this? genuinely what the fuck is the point. my job is to inspect other people's codebases and every single time someone comes up with a custom SPA or framework it's slower, less ergonomic, fucks with new devs and its just fucking ugly
USE A FRAMEWORK.

>>105846016
>fucks with new devs
it also fucks with older devs because it takes like 3 times the effort to use whatever the fuck they come up with instead of using react
They are retarded and have main character syndrome and read 3 articles on how react is bad because the blog author did something retarded

>>105832168 (OP)
And so? FORTRAN is still alive and won't go anywhere.

>>105834509
embedded systems

>>105834727
> does not support .. polymorphism,
If only linux developers knew that.

>>105846016
How did the popular frameworks come into being in the first place? In machine shops, being able to create your own tools to some degree is a major topic. Also, some prioritize their own learning or some kind of CV-building/prestige, whether responsible or not and whether they have talent or not.

>>105832168 (OP)
C is awesome sauce.

>>105832408
Don't know about "project" (I assume by projects you mean some cringe startup app) but as an actual engineer (not software "engineer") almost everything in the industry (like industrial robots or automation systems) is programmed using either C, C++ or assembly languages. You can even program FPGAs in C now

>>105832408
>(non kernel/hardware/embedded... stuff)
>bro do people even use c? and NO, don't give me examples of cases where people use c
Retard?

>>105847324
>You can even program FPGAs in C now
if they have a processor core on them, sure

you don't "program" FPGAs, underageb& retard

>>105845256
Rust seems to be the language of choice for wasm.
So ABI doesn't matter because literally every language supports C ABI nowadays for sake of FFI, even scripting languages like JS and Python.

>>105847339
What do you do with them then?

>>105847335
So the answer to his question is no?

>>105847345
you write a hardware definition. it doesn't "execute". C is fundamentally not capable of being an HDL, though maybe they've added some junk to it to allow you to write hardware definitions.

>>105847363
>*serious hat on*
>You don't PROGRAM them you IDIOT, you WRITE A HARDWARE DEFINITION
retard

Why are cniles always so melodramatic and wrong every single time lmao

>>105834727
jfc stick to your javascript you retard.
go look at python's c source if you want an example. structs and function pointers let you do exactly that.

>>105847515
NTA, JavaScript also doesn't support these. Stop talking about things you have no idea about.

>>105847564
>look at this meme
As expected if C programmer

>>105847585
do you identify yourself as a javascript programmer?
its a fucking tool, you dolt. you pick the right one for the job.
i use C but i am not a C programmer. i use java but i am not a java programmer. i use whatever is appropriate for the task at hand.

>>105847615
oh i get it, you can't use anything but JS and are super defensive about your "language." let me guess, 250-300 pound female?

I love womb tattoos so much
It's very degenerate but not in the same way as a butterfly tattoo, it's other way of being marked as a whore, a whore for weirdos and weebs.

>>105847341
>Rust seems to be the language of choice for wasm
only if you're cutting corners and dicks alike.
otherwise, no

>>105846526
exactly in the same way, like react from inside facebook. BUT, you're at a point that react exists for years now and has a lot of competent devs working on it (and not so competent ones giving it attention) so you can at least expect some level of quality.
a "framework" a senior dev put together 2 years ago and didn't see any iteration ever since it was first created is not even in the same realm of discussion

>>105832444
Sqlite was released 24 years ago

>>105848899
piece of shit liar, it was released less than 2 weeks ago

>>105848052
>I love womb tattoos
Even though they might be a succubus invention?

>>105849426
Are they? Or are you just shitposting?

>>105849720
its just a vagina

>>105849720
>are you just [...]posting?
I try not to.
>Are they?
I'm unaware. To clarify, not womb tattoos in general (location), but the pattern (or sigil) tattoos that get placed over the womb might be succubus inventions. Like these:
>>105848052
>>105849720
They appear in hentai. The is the one the girl in the OP has.

stop posting these hideous whore hags
this is a niece website

>>105832168 (OP)
C++ will never go away either, Rust might eventually fade into the background.

>>105850477
i like how you think rust isnt already in the background

>>105850396
It was her first and only tattoo

>>105832308
and new devices alike

>>105851250
Do you have the link for that?

>>105851241
>her

>>105850477
>might eventually
lmao people are already moving on

>>105851540
https://www.instagram.com/p/B2-0XYalZ9g/

>>105845073
>C will probably persist as a protocol for inter-language interaction. Only a retard would use it for anything other than that, but it'll probably be used in that role forever.
C is horrible for that purpose. You want a language with a powerful type system and object system like Common Lisp, not a language that just has int, float, and a pointer to a byte where you can add 1 until you (possibly) find a 0. C doesn't even let you use all the types that assembly does.

>>105852897
jfc its 2025 your strawmen aren't problems in C anymore

>>105853046
They're still problems, but you have 10,000 programmers and can use 32 GB of RAM to "work around" them (like converting all your objects to base64 JSON and sharing the JSON as files instead of sharing the objects themselves). How do you share a bignum between Java and Python using C? How do you share a string (that can contain nulls which are valid ASCII and Unicode characters) between two languages using C? How do you pass a closure (or just a function) between two languages using C? C doesn't solve any problems that using assembly doesn't solve, except assembly lets you pass things in registers, use SIMD, and have better strings. Your interface language should go beyond assembly and be better, not worse.

>>105853131
whcar was added to c 25 years ago. o t doesn't natively support unicode but you are one google search away from finding a library that does

>>105853157
That doesn't solve the problem.

>>105853161
if you want your hand held, C is not for you

>>105853178
You think solving a problem is having your "hand held" so you want things to be bad on purpose.

>>105853198
c gives me control. i want control. i don't want "good enough" solutions that other languages offer in their standard libraries. i know my problem and my data and i want to tailor the code to *that* problem and not *the* problem.
why?
i write scientific computing software. it must be 1) correct and 2) fast.

>>105853239
The solution is you have a common object system so you can share code written in any language (even brain dead ones like C). Your "solution" is that people should not be allowed to share any types more powerful than what C has and that banning that ability makes C look good because then you can only use the types C has. You like dumbing everything down to the lowest common denominator instead of letting each language communicate with others on their own level.

>>105853277
i feel like we are miscommunicating somewhere.

>>105852897
>C is horrible for that purpose.
No, it's actually great for that purpose because it's a pretty barebones abstraction of assembler, which makes it a good middle ground for all other languages, especially since they are basically further abstractions down the line. You wouldn't want some high level, already heavily abstracted language as the common protocol. A neutral, relatively low level language is the best choice.

>>105847339
What does the P in FPGA stand for, saar?

>>105850396
>>105851250
Human invention trying to imitate succubi (which respect elements, not marks or sigils, there's established demonology on this)

>>105845073
I feel that even for that it'll be forgotten.

>>105853658
>No, it's actually great for that purpose because it's a pretty barebones abstraction of assembler,
That's one reason why it's bad. C has LESS than assembly. Most languages have more.

>especially since they are basically further abstractions down the line.
None of those languages are abstractions of assembly, they're additions to assembly. They have additional concepts that do not exist in assembly.

>You wouldn't want some high level, already heavily abstracted language as the common protocol.
Actually you would because it's more powerful, which means more languages can translate their own features into the common language. It makes sense for languages people use to communicate and it makes sense for languages used in writing software too.