Where does this motif come from? It's everywhere. From Scandanavia to Japan everyone believed their storm god fought a giant snake creature.

Norse
>Thor vs Jormungander

Greek
>Zeus vs Typhon

Hittite
>Tarhunna vs Illuyanka

Canaanite
>Ba'al vs Litan

Israelite
>Yahweh vs Leviathan

Egyptian
>Set and Ra vs Apep

Babylonian
>Marduk vs Tiamat

Indian
>Indra vs Vritra

Japanese
>Susanoo vs Yamata no Orochi

>>17755643 (OP)
This proves how retard the le IE studies are
Unless the aryan r1b chads invaded Japan and MENA KEK

>>17755646
Comparative mythology it's as reliable as flat earth
everyone starts from exaggerated premises and false similarities
we have a "thor" everywhere, even in africa. the apalachian indians had a "father god" and the assyrians had a solar cult, therefore
>le PIE culture, DuDe

>>17755646
>This proves how retard the le IE studies are
Retard take. PIEs were still a vector for the myth's dispersal. IE studies is good at telling us what culture IEs distributed, but it has no opinion about the ultimate global origin of things.

>>17755646
Japan received a fair amount of Hindu culture without any particular IE migration there. It's not that weird.

>>17755643 (OP)
>Thor vs Jormungander
Obviously IE.
>Zeus vs Typhon
>Tarhunna vs Illuyanka
>Ba'al vs Litan
>Yahweh vs Leviathan
>Set and Ra vs Apep
All of these have a common origin. The part of Anatolian nearest to Syria was inhabited by non-IE/Semite Hurrians. The Hurrian thunder god (Teshub) is attested after their contact with early Anatolians and PIEs. The first Semitic thunder god (Hadad, first called Hadda) appears in Ebla, northern Syria, adjacent to the Hurrians.

The Semitic trope pairing Hadad/Ba'al/Adad, a thunder god, with Yam/Lotan/Tiamat, an oceanic serpent monster, is clearly PIE-influenced. Hadad first appears as Eblaite Hadda in the fringe of Semitic territory in northern Syria adjacent to Hurrian lands in Anatolia. The Hurrians (neither Semitic nor IE) had a chief thunder god called Teshub who seems to have been an indigenous thunder god associated with Mount Zaphon (frequently struck by lightning) merged with the Hittite chief thunder god, the Indo-European Tarhunna (cognate with Thor/thunder). The Hittites were an Indo-European speaking people who conquered Hurrian lands from the north and blended with them.

In Egypt, Baal Hadad was syncretized with Seth. "Apophis was first mentioned in the Eighth Dynasty" so 2200 BC, and "Tales of Apep's battles against Seth were elaborated during the New Kingdom" so 1500 BC, AFTER Hyksos (Aka Amorites, the same ones who founded the Babylonian Dynasty of Hammurabi whose national god was Marduk) rule, they worshiped Seth and syncretized them with Apophis/Yam-Lotan (there was even a pharaoh named after him). They were from Canaan and were descendants ultimately of Amorites who originated near Ebla. Ebla was a major city from 2500 BC and was a short distance away from the Anatolia for 1000 years. Most likely path for Apep is Proto-Indo-Europeans > Anatolians > Ebla > Amorites > Ugarit > Canaanites > Hyksos > Egypt.

>>17755657
>yoruba deity of lightning, thunder, war
keeeeeeeeeeek

>>17755767
>Susanoo vs Yamata no Orochi
The earliest reference to the conflict between Susanoo and Yamata no Orochi is found in the sacred books of Japan, the Kojiki (712 AD) and the Nihon Shoki (720 AD).

The >>17755736 it's right. The Japanese god Fujin for example is influenced by the Greek Boreas and Vedic Vayu.

>Fūjin (風神, lit. "Wind God") or Fūten (風天, lit. "Heavenly Wind"), sometimes also known as Ryobu, is the Japanese god of the wind and one of the eldest Shinto and Buddhist gods. He is portrayed as a terrifying wizardly demon, resembling a red-haired, green-skinned humanoid wearing a tiger or leopard skin loincloth/kilt, carrying a large, inflated bag of winds (風袋; Kazebuko/Fūtai) on his shoulders. In Japanese art, the deity is often depicted together with his twin-brother, Raijin, the god of lightning & thunder, and together, along with their brother, Susanoo-no-Mikoto, they are the Shinto gods (Kami) of storms.

>According to Kojiki, Fūjin and his brother Raijin were born from Izanami after she died

>When Izanagi went down to Yomi to retrieve his wife, he saw her as a decaying corpse covered with demons. Izanagi rejected her, making Izanami furious, leading her and a few monsters to chase after Izanagi. Izanagi then blocked the entrance to Yomi. However, a few demons and oni escaped the underworld through a crack in the boulder, including Fūjin and his brother Raijin

>The iconography of Fūjin seems to have its origin in the cultural exchanges along the Silk Road. Starting with the Hellenistic period when Greece occupied parts of Central Asia and India, the Greek wind god Boreas became the god Wardo/Oado in Bactrian Greco-Buddhist art, then a wind deity in China (as seen frescoes of the Tarim Basin; usually named Feng Bo/Feng Po—"Uncle Wind"—among various other names), and finally the Japanese Wind God Fūjin. The wind god kept its symbol, the windbag, and its disheveled appearance throughout this evolution

>>17755778
>seems to have its origin
wishful conjecture from that point onward

>>17755771
>>17755767
We don't want to see your blacks gods

>>17755771
3 major Back to Africa and inter-African migrations happened that are relevant to Eurasian admixture amongst modern Subsaharans. For the duration of the Neolithic Subpluvial and the Agricultural Revolution where a Green Sahara fostered settlement. Which declined during the 5.9 kiloyear event that desertified both Arabia and the Sahara. But continued to contribute to North Africa and the Horn while the remainder of the continent was semi-isolated. The 2nd major Eurasian migration was around the time of the Late Bronze Age Collapse. Around 1,500-1,000 BC. When Middle Easterners and North Africans such as Ethio-Semetics, Berbers, Sub-Libyans, Levantines and other Africans already with Eurasian admixture began to traverse the Sahara forest or Red Sea. The 3rd major Eurasian migration came during the Christian and Islamic era. With the advent of "Camel men" from West Asia and followed by centuries of Bedouin settlers after the Arab conquests. All these 3 major events and possibly even earlier ones during the hunter-gatherer period were prime contributors of Eurasian admixture in modern Subsaharans.

West African agriculture come from Green Sahara. Early SSA were most likely Eurasianized Green Sahara refugees just like Egyptians in the Nile Valley.

>Based on dental evidence, Irish (2016) concluded that the common ancestors of West African and Proto-Bantu peoples may have originated in the western region of the Sahara, amid the Kiffian period at Gobero, and may have migrated southward, from the Sahara into various parts of West Africa (e.g., Benin, Cameroon, Ghana, Nigeria, Togo), as a result of as a result of desertification of the Green Sahara in 7000 BC. From Nigeria and Cameroon, agricultural Proto-Bantu peoples began to migrate, and amid migration, diverged into East Bantu peoples (e.g., Democratic Republic of Congo) and West Bantu peoples (e.g., Congo, Gabon) between 2500 BC and 1200 BC

>Israelite
>>Yahweh vs Leviathan
euphoric

>>17755724
>PIEs were still a vector for the myth's dispersal
No. Unless you actually argues that IE moved MENA and Egypt
>>17755736
How convenient, huh? Of all this supposed Hindu substrate, what became part of Japanese mythology, were essentially the serpents and a hero who kills them... your theory has a hole. Japan already had this myth PRE-BUDDHISM or any Indian culture went to India, research the demons of the Amerindian people, many were giant snakes.

>>17755818
>Green sahara
>genetics
The OP AT NO TIME mentioned genetics or even "Africa". Are you really going to flood?

>>17755646
No, it proves the "myth" is true.

>>17755818
>He suggests that Igbo people and Yoruba people may have admixture from back-migrated Bantu peoples

>The Gobero archaeological site, dating to approximately 8000 BCE, is the oldest known graveyard in the Sahara Desert. The site contains important information for archaeologists on how early humans adapted to a constantly changing environment. Gobero is located in the Ténéré desert of Niger, and is named after the Tuareg name for the region. It is the type site of the Holocene era Kiffian culture and Tenerian culture

I read recently that the Yoruba had a sort of "pope" or "religious high king" called Ooni who resided at the sacred-city of Ife and who nobody could look at directly, cause he was permeated with divine energy that could kill you. So when rulers had audiences with him, the Ooni would stretch a single foot out from behind the curtains that hung before his throne, so that the supplicant would know he was paying attention.

After the Ooni died, a group of special potters - pottery was a big deal for the Yoruba, who likely adopted it from the Nok civilization - would make a clay sculpture of the Oonis face, which was then paraded around Ife so that people could see what the last Ooni looked like.
Those busts show a very characteristic pattern of vertical striped on the face, which has been interpreted as either a very radical form of scarification, or as a veil made of pearls that was further meant to protect the world from the divinely-powerful face of the Ooni.

>>17755818
>>17755837
Out of thread

>>17755820
>PIEs were still a vector for the myth's dispersal
>No. Unless you actually argues that IE moved MENA and Egypt
I am literally saying PIEs were a vector for the myth's dispersal to their IE descendants, which sufficiently explains the distribution among the Norse, the Greeks, and Indians.
Also there isn't any particular reason they couldn't have spread mythology to non-IE cultures like semites, but it's not that important to me who invented the story. I'm just saying IE studies helps with seeing culture that was spread through a shared unified source.

>>17755813
black gods are more powerful than your sissy PIE deities

>>17755869
Huehue

>>17755818
>>17755837
>sacred-city of Ife
BTW Most of the Yoruba myths take place in this place. You can trace the origin of these SSA thunder gods to here and the Back to Africa Eurasian Neolithic Revolution since that is what these cycles in nature are that these myths represent.

>Shango (Yoruba language: Ṣàngó, also known as Changó or Xangô in Latin America; as Jakuta or Badé; and as Ṣangó in Trinidad Orisha) is an Orisha (or spirit) of thunder in Yoruba religion

>The legendary origins of the Oyo Empire lie with Ọranyan (also known as Ọranmiyan), the last prince of the Yoruba Kingdom of Ile-Ife (Ife)

>Ifẹ̀ (Yoruba: Ifẹ̀, Ilé-Ifẹ̀) is an ancient Yoruba city in south-western Nigeria founded sometime between the years 1000 BC and 500 BC. By 900 AD, the city had become an important West African emporium producing sophisticated art forms

>According to the traditions of the Yoruba religion, Ilé-Ifẹ̀ was founded by the order of the Supreme God Olódùmarè by Obatala. It then fell into the hands of his brother Oduduwa, which created enmity between the two. Oduduwa created a dynasty there, and sons and daughters of this dynasty became rulers of many other kingdoms in Yorubaland. The first Ọọ̀ni of Ifẹ̀ is a descendant of Oduduwa, which was the 401st Orisha

Funny that Muzzies we wuzzing them.

>Ile-Ife, the holy city of the Yoruba people, which is said to have been conquered by Oduduwa, Kisra's grandson in one version

>The Kisra legend is a migration story shared by a number of political and ethnic groups in modern Nigeria, Benin, and Cameroon, primarily the Borgu kingdom and the people of the Benue River valley. The migration legend depicts the arrival of a large military force in what is currently Northern Nigeria around the 7th Century AD. The Borgu kingdom claimed direct descent from the leader of this migration and a number of other polities recognize the migration through ceremony and formal regalia

REMEMBER THE BLACK GODS
RETVRN

>>17755906
>There are a number of different versions of the legend with Kisra sometimes being depicted as a religious and military rival to Muhammad near Mecca around the time that Islam was founded and sometimes as the remnant forces of a Persian king defeated in Egypt. The legend was a key piece of evidence in a number of Hamitic historical theories which argued that the political development of societies in sub-Saharan Africa was the result of contacts with societies from the Middle East (namely Egypt, Rome, and the Byzantine Empire). Whether the legend has a historical basis has been questioned by modern scholarship

>The legend is shared by many different political and ethnic entities throughout what is currently northern Nigeria and has provided important linkages between these communities. Although the different versions share a similar depiction of a large migration into the area along the Niger river in around the 7th Century, two of the most prominent versions of the story depict Kisra as a challenger to Muhammad on the Arabian peninsula or as a Persian ruler who suffered a military defeat in Egypt. However, in some versions Kisra is not an individual person but a generalized title for the leader of the migration as it moved across Africa. Versions also differ on other aspects of the story, namely whether or not Kisra himself founded any of the royal lines and the specifics of his death or magical disappearance

>In the most prominent version of the story in the Borgu kingdom, Kisra is depicted as an early political and religious challenger to Muhammad in the area around Mecca. In this version, Kisra was a prominent leader and possessed a number of magical powers. However, during his rule, a seer foresaw that his power would eventually be undermined by a child born within the city who would have divine powers

>>17755925
>To prevent this challenge, Kisra exiled all the men of his city on the date that the seer had predicted the baby to be conceived; however, the husband of Aminatu, Kisra's daughter, remained in the city and a son was conceived, Muhammad. As Muhammad grew, he began trying to convert Kisra to Islam, but the ruler resisted. Eventually, this resulted in open warfare between Muhammad and Kisra over religious issues and Kisra won the initial conflict. However, as Muhammad fled to a baobab tree he was provided divine assistance for his escape and to reorganize his forces. Seeing that the tables had turned, Kisra and his followers left the Arabian peninsula, eventually reaching the Niger river. Kisra's party visited many of the villages in the area before eventually founding the Borgu kingdom. In some versions of the legend, Kisra's oldest son Woru (or sometimes Kisra himself) founded the city of Bussa, which would become the capital of Borgu. Kisra's younger sons founded Nikki, founded by Shabi, and Illo, founded by Bio

>In later versions, this order of foundation of the main cities of the Borgu kingdom is changed. The legend became crucial in the Borgu kingdom in uniting the different cities, legitimizing the ruling dynasty (the Wasangari), and providing an ideological distinction between Borgu and the Islamic states in the area

>In 1909, the German anthropologist Leo Frobenius compiled an aggregate version of the Kisra legend from informants in the Benue river valley. This version depicts Kisra not as a challenger to Mohammad, but instead as a Persian king who suffered a military defeat in Egypt to a Byzantine army. Following this defeat, Kisra and his army were unable to return to Persia and had to work further into Africa. His army settled briefly in Nubia and Ethiopia where Kisra joined forces with a powerful king in the region, Napata, to conquer lands to the West

>>Yahweh vs Leviathan
??? Leviathan is just a nile crocodile. And all Yahweh does is tell Job to admire it.

>>17755933
>His army migrated into the Niger river region and then followed a similar route as that described above with Kisra's party visiting a number of communities in the area and eventually settling in the Borgu area

>Anthropologists and historians have conducted significant oral history studies and material research to identify any correspondence of key parts of the legend. These studies have come to different conclusions, with some suggesting that ideas of the Kisra migration were adopted by various African societies for sociopolitical reasons, and that "rather than by any specific migration, the idea of ‘Kisra’ was borne across the Sahara, to the areas where it took root in the form of the Kisra legends." Frobenius argued that the figure of Kisra was possibly the Persian king Khosrau II or Chosroes. Some parts of the historical account do correspond with the timeline of Khosrau II who conquered Egypt in the early 7th century before being defeated by a Byzantine army and it is considered possible that some parts of the army were unable to return to Persia and so journeyed through Africa

>Flora Shaw in contrast argued that Kisra was a mistranslation of "Christ" and that the migration legend was mostly of Christian origin. C.K. Moss instead contends that Kisra was more likely a Songhai or Mossi king who rose to prominence in the 15th century

>The legend played a key role in many (now largely discredited) Hamitic theories of African political and social development. These theories argued that political development, namely the formation of complex states, had its origins in migrations of people from the Middle East or of Christian influences (often Coptic). The Kisra legend, and particularly the hypothesis that Kisra was actually Khosrau II, was seen as clear evidence for Egyptian, Nubian, Byzantine, or Persian influence into the development of West Africa

>>17755906
I forgot to post that he was a kangz and shit from Oyo:

>Genealogically speaking, Shango is a royal ancestor of the Yoruba as he was the third Alaafin of the Oyo Kingdom prior to his posthumous deification

>The Alaafin of Oyo in Yoruba mythology and history is said to be one of Oduduwa seven grandsons who later became Kings, forming the bedrock of the Yoruba Civilization. According to tradition, he was the holder of the title of the Olofin of Ile-Ife, the Yoruba holy city

>>17755643 (OP)
Meteor. Big one. Video is related as an example. But it was probably much bigger than this Russian one.
https://youtu.be/dpmXyJrs7iU

- Flying serpents.
- Serpents with wings (how else could a snake fly eh?)
- Dragons.
Thunder. Well watch the video. Windows get blown out.
The myths are usually also associated with rain, so I assume it impacted in an ocean somewhere.
You missed the Australian Aborigine Rainbow Snake btw, though I don't remember if that has thunder associated with it. Chaos at least.

>>17755643 (OP)
>Where does this motif come from?
"Atlantis"

>>17755975
Modern representations*
Try again

>>17755643 (OP)
there's also the motif of a child of the conjoined primordial earth/sky separating them, which exists in some way in most IE religions and in Sumerian myth.
some form of contact between IE and Mesopotamia has existed since roughly 2500 BC via the amber trade and certainly after 2000 BC when domestic horses appear.
another possibility is that EEF people also had similar myths and IE picked it up when Corded Ware absorbed Globular Amphora and Funnelbeaker people.

garbage unique??

Aztec: Cipactli (Sipaktli)

Sioux (Lakota): Unk Cekula Unktehi (killed by Wakinyan meaning "Thunder")

*Chinese: Xiangliu

*Japanese: 大蛇 (woröti, orochi, daija) ("Great Serpent")

*Basque: Herensuge Sugaraar

*Canaanite: Yam ("The Sea", "The Serpent")

*Egyptian: Apep ("The Serpent that Encircles the World")

>>17756565
PIE sisters? Isn't our religious garbage unique??

>>17755643 (OP)
Storm is a generalized term, because many of the gods associated with it are only associated tangentially or by inference.
Thor has very little connection to the weather outside of his name.
YHWH as a storm god is a pretty vague connection that relies on a lot of stretching details from the Song of Deborah.
Marduk's fight with Tiamat is pretty different from the others too.

>>17755820
Japan believes it has the myth pre-Buddhism (and probably does, admittedly) but we don't actually know for a fact that's the case. Japan's earliest written sources postdate the introduction of Buddhism to the archipelago.

>>17756868
But it's the same premise..
God vs giant snake
Very common among all peoples>>17756565
Another PIE studies cope
>>17756909
Concession?

>>17758046
The Japanese myth is plausibly an import from Hindu culture. There is no evidence to the contrary. There is no sign that it even predates Buddhism, but even if there were, why would this necessarily indicate it's not from India?
Look at the list in the OP again. IE cultures, the Levant, Egypt, Near East. Japan is the one that sticks out. This is best explained by a known mechanism: Indian cultural imports.

As for the other non-IE cultures, there are multiple possibilities. It's not clear where the myth originates, but if it were desirable to do so, IE origins can be pursued more than one might think at first glance. For example, the Levant had multiple intrusions of steppe-admixed people and IE culture. The Torah is in large part derivative of Hellenistic culture, and all Jews and Samaritans have Mycenaean admixture. Greeks setup colonies in the Levant. That's who the "Philistines" were. But that's not the only steppe signal in the Levant. There's also one which is probably Proto-Armenian in origin. As for Egypt, I seem to recall someone posting some Vahaduo charts with what he called the "Hyksos" which apparently has steppe admix. I wish I knew the G25 labels so I could look at those samples again.

Anyway, it's totally plausible the myth has non-IE origins and is perhaps much older than PIEs, it's surprisingly hard to rule out IE influence.

>>17755911
What is he, and where is he from?

>>17755643 (OP)
It happened

>>17759036
What happened, yo?

>>17758046
You do realize cultures steal from each other all the time right? Like Aphrodite/Venus was one of the most popular gods in the Indo-European descended Greco-Roman pantheon, but she was an import from the Semetic pantheon. It's why all the mythic genealogies have to awkwardly bolt her onto the side of the divine family tree with no parents or siblings, because she was absorbed later from another culture.

>>17758521
>The Japanese myth is plausibly an import from Hindu culture. There is no evidence to the contrary
the myth is possibly pre-Hindu, mainly because it was already part of the Japanese oral tradition since the earliest feudal periods
>As for the other non-IE cultures, there are multiple possibilities. It's not clear where the myth originates, but if it were desirable to do so, IE origins can be pursued more than one might think at first glance.
If we don't even know where the myth originated as you say, then why use IE as a metric for anything? That's just avoiding the main issue.
>For example, the Levant had multiple intrusions of steppe-admixed people and IE culture
according to genetics, the most "IE" we have are Philistines with 20% Aegean, who particularly weren't very IE in the first place, the Assyrian r1b comes from the Armenians. there is no cultural intrusion between them.
>As for Egypt, I seem to recall someone posting some Vahaduo charts with what he called the "Hyksos" which apparently has steppe admix. I wish I knew the G25 labels so I could look at those samples again
What? See above
>it's totally plausible the myth has non-IE origins and is perhaps much older than PIEs
So... what's the point here anyway?
>>17760383
>You do realize cultures steal from each other all the time right
That's my point, tard

>>17761277
>was already part of the Japanese oral tradition since the earliest feudal periods
Oral tradition means there's no receipts. I don't see any particular reason to be convinced the myth wasn't imported from elsewhere when Japan is the outlier in the list.

>If we don't even know where the myth originated as you say, then why use IE as a metric for anything?
If we don't know where the myth originates, it is valid to consider IEs as the origin just as much as anyone else. It doesn't mean we will make much progress on solving the problem, but it is worth considering the maximum possible reach of any one culture. Because IEs were mobile and spread out in all directions from the steppe, their culture reached far. It doesn't mean they were responsible for everything however.

>according to genetics, the most "IE" we have are Philistines with 20% Aegean, who particularly weren't very IE in the first place, the Assyrian r1b comes from the Armenians. there is no cultural intrusion between them.
Factually wrong and bad reasoning. I'm looking at Ashkelon samples in G25 right now and 2 of them don't even have Israel admix. One is 61% Mycenaean, 34% Minoan. There's only 7 samples in this dataset and 3 of them have excess steppe that isn't explainable from standard Mycenaean admix. This is irrelevant however, because steppe % isn't a reliable indicator of how strong the cultural transmission would be. Mycenaeans and Indo-Iranians had a strong IE cultural transmission but low steppe admix. You need to see IE culture as having things in common with a religion. White Muslims with no Arab admix exist.
In any case, the Torah is a late work in large part derivative of Hellenistic culture.

>So... what's the point here anyway?
The point is it's surprisingly difficult to exhaust all options for the maximal extent of IE cultural transmission. My point is not that I have good evidence that these non-IE cultures received the myth from IEs.