I have read a lot of literature about the Hyksos, and according to Mourad in the work "Rise of the Hyksos Egypt and the Levant, from the Middle Kingdom to the beginning of the Second Intermediate Period", they presented fundamentally northern Levantine archaeological characteristics,

however, I would like to ask if the hypothesis of an IE origin of the Hyksos is really as "discredited" as historians say?
there is no basis at all?
I would like to know if there are good arguments and evidence for such a hypothesis, I am open.

Unfortunately, I have noticed a certain hysterical childishness about some of the opponents of this hypothesis with arguments such as "fitted European dreams of Indo-European supremacy, now discredited" (Van de Mieroop) I do not believe that this is a consistent counter-argument.

Before you label me as Eurocentric, know that I am aware that ancient Egypt was not a European civilization or any kind of objection like that. Thank you.

>>17789110 (OP)
There was some guy who used to post Vahaduo charts on /pol/ and /his/ with samples he called "Hyksos". I never looked at it closely at the time but he claimed there were samples in Egypt, and I think also the Levant, with steppe admixture.

I didn't think much of it back then but it's been bugging me lately because now I want to go look at those samples and try modeling their ancestry myself. I don't know their sample IDs. I don't think they were actually labeled Hyksos, but he called them that. I'm not sure if their coordinates are in standard G25 or if I need to download them off a forum like genarchivist. Maybe I need to go looking through desuarchive or 4plebs and see any of that guy's posts show up. I think he had a Swedish flag on /pol/.

>>17789129
It's interesting, but I'm a bit reluctant about the samples. If you find anything, please share it with us. I'm curious if the anons have any other possible evidence, or at least similarities to something that could be "IE".
but to be fair, looking at the pottery I didn't find much of a pattern with any IE people's pottery. There are those low-quality samples from Egypt with 12% bell beaker ancestry, but they said it was a fake leak.

>>17789129
There are some _o in Israel with steppe, it's true, but I'm not sure which people measured them, there are also those samples in the Zagros with almost 60% steppe if I remember correctly.
>>17789110 (OP)
Just look at their names, and analyzing the names of their rulers, it is definitely Semitic. I don't believe they were IEs, however, they apparently introduced the chariot and horse to Egypt, and perhaps religious concepts? like a god killing a serpent? But one would have to look at the chronology of that. I don't know how old these tales are in Egypt. But since they exist even in Mesopotamia and Japan, I doubt it is IE.

>>17789148
I'm looking through desuarchive now and I found a post talking about the Swede Hyksos so I know I'm not misremembering now.
https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/16829291/#q16830358
I'm going to find out if this is complete bullshit or not.

>>17789172
These are Iranian samples
>>17789165
Nice

>>17789175
>These are Iranian samples
I know. I'm just saying there's proof this poster existed

>>17789179
you talking about this, I think I remember. but as they said here, there is at least a low influx of steppe in the Levant

>>17789110 (OP)
>IE origin of the Hyksos is really as "discredited"
i sure don't know, wasn't there. but there's somebody still holding them close, labeling them as "peaceful migrants" and such. there was a mural of the "sea peoples" which i can't find now that had a guy on the left side with hair like this. likely with big butt hurt after the ejection they gathered all manner of "peaceful immigrants" to pay visits to the "civilizations" on the mediterranean. maybe start of phoenician empires there as well.

>>17789181
interesting, I know which mural you're talking about
but I think it's a modern reconstruction. anyway, I don't think they were related to the Sea Peoples, since most of what we know about the Sea Peoples comes from the Egyptians themselves and they didn't say they were the same.
but anyway, the Egyptians themselves treated them as foreigners, so I don't think it was really a "peaceful" thing

>>17789148
Turns out the Swede poster mostly posted on /pol/. I'm looking at his infographics and I think he primarily posted about those Israel outliers with steppe. I apologize if that's all it was. I'll keep looking to see if he ever posted anything Egyptian but it's Israel and Iran over and over.

>>17789291
this model is pretty crazy
but I'm not aware of any Egyptian samples with high steppe, if you find something, don't hesitate to share

>>17789192
not "were" sea people, collected them. gave them rides, unleashed them. just a guess, but traders would have contact with many laborer, miner, agri worker type societies. along with lukkans, mercenaries. climate issues causing drought, famine, somebody with boats offered them rides to the lands of milk and honey. and then those traders became phoenicians. maybe.

>>17789110 (OP)
There’s no evidence of wether the Hyksos were Indo-Europeans or weren’t. We don’t know.

>>17789297
>high steppe
I wouldn't expect to find high steppe that far south, only some to indicate IE gene flow. Anyway the Swede goes on and on about the Hyksos being IE invaders with chariots and stuff. Does anyone know if Egypt even has trace steppe? (Think like 1-3%). Trace steppe does turn up in the Levant sometimes.

>>17789110 (OP)
The Hurrians and the Canaanite Hyksos likely saw the power of steppe people and wanted to emulate them.
This culminated in the Hyksos famously conquering Egypt and the Hurrians forming the Mitanni empire.

>>17789329
Whem i said "high", is anything higher than residual, (1~5%) which is irrelevant
the OP talked about these samples with 13% bell beakers I have a screenshot

>>17789329
Unlikely, Hyksos was from 12th Dynasty, c. 1878-1837 B.C.

>>17789350
It is possible that the design of the chariot wheel was inspired by the Hyksos war chariots. Chariot technology originated in the steppes and spread to both Central Europe and Egypt after about 1700 B.C. Is your dating correct?

Could the concepts of the wheeled solar boat have spread along with the technology? This could be an interesting connection to explore. But who knows?

>>17789344
Well there might not be much genetic information but I found this idea interesting. A connection is made with the Golden Calf episode of the Bible and the idea of cows being holy in Aryan culture. Disclaimer: I'm not religious. The Bible is a completely fictional narrative and it's not about white people. I'm just thinking the authors had to come up with this Golden Calf idea from somewhere. What if that's what the Mitanni did? The Golden Calf story could be some sort of polemic against IE cultural practices that had reached the Levant.

I recall PIE cosmology has something like a cow that was divided into parts in order to make the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos
>The Hyksos use of horse burials suggest that the Hyksos introduced both the horse and the chariot to Egypt,[173]
Horse burials are a little suspicious

>>>/pol/353693155
>Also the fact studies has proven the sintashta horses, chariots and indo european language spread concurrently throughout the middle east.

>Hyksos bringing horse chariots, horses, having horse burials, being foreign conquerors. Worshipping a Storm God.

>Yet they can't have been indo europeans.


>Kek

>>17789529
Cool anon
Another thing like that???
>>17789387
>recall PIE cosmology has something like a cow that was divided into parts in order to make the world.
Going to read the post

>>17789387
Your post is a contradiction
If the Bible is a fictional book, what is the validity of this supposed connection? You can't choose both. If the Bible has the same validity as the Book of the Dead or the Book of the Dead, using this is quite irrelevant.
>>17789550
He's just using non related things

>>17789540
>Yet they can't have been indo europeans.
Correct

>>17789540
There's no IE languages in middle east
And we had "storm gods" in everywhere
>>17789387
What is this retard talking about?
>mitanni
Spoke a non-IE language.
>The Golden Calf story could be some sort of polemic against IE cultural practices that had reached the Levant.
Schizophrenic

>>17789556
Yes.. schizo

Real sources

>>17789569

>>17789529
Not really
We have "horse" burials among non_IE people
Gac buried their people with animals

>>17789110 (OP)
Couldn't be IE
Since they came from eastern parts
Were just Semitics fighting with Semitics

>>17789329
>Does anyone know if Egypt even has trace steppe?
This is the only question that matters. If an IE people were ever in Egypt we would expect trace DNA. The Hyksos were supposedly expelled, so we shouldn't expect a lot, just a sign that they were there. Unfortunately I only know of two Egypt samples in G25. If anyone knows of more I can start testing them.

It does seem like trace steppe is in Egypt. It may have been mediated by those of Iranian origin.

>>17789565
>There's no IE languages in middle east
Irrelevant

>>mitanni
>Spoke a non-IE language.
Irrelevant. This isn't the stone age. We can look at genetics. We just need more than two samples.

>>17789625

>>17789628

>>17789556
>If the Bible is a fictional book, what is the validity of this supposed connection?
Non-historical events inspired by historical practices. Is this hard to understand?

>>17789629
Israel_MLBA_o is one of the high steppe Israel outliers.
Turkey_Alalakh_MLBA_o is a potential Mitanni sample according to Davidski.

>>17789646
Turkey_Alalakh_MLBA_o by itself

>>17789646
Turkey_Alalakh_MLBA_o by itself.

>>17789656
Israel_MLBA_o by itself.

>>17789659
I forgot I had Ukraine_N in there. Ukraine_N eats steppe, but it's steppe too. It's a good sign if it shows up because many IE peoples have excess Ukraine_N

>>17789661
I'm making ChatGPT search the web for G25 coordinates. It gave me something called Egyptian_Middle_Kingdom-Djehuty_Nakht_2100B.C:I6130 with a surprising 12.6% Yamnaya.
However this is supposedly 2100 BC whereas the Hyksos in Egypt are dated 1650–1550 BC.

Various forums talk about this sample as being contaminated but in comparison to these other Egyptian samples, how different is it really? Not much. Could it be dated wrong?

>>17789706

>>17789110 (OP)
The Egyptians called them Aamu (Asiatics). They were Amorites, the same ones who founded the Babylonian Dynasty.

>Aamu (Ancient Egyptian: , romanized: ꜥꜣmw) was a name used to designate West Asians in ancient Egypt. It is often translated as "Western Asiatic", but it might refer specifically to Canaanites or Amorites. Contemporary Egyptian sources from the time of the wars against the Hyksos also refer to the latter as ꜥꜣmw

>Seuserenre Khyan (also Khayan or Khian) was a Hyksos king of the Fifteenth Dynasty of Egypt, ruling over Lower Egypt in the second half of the 17th century BCE. His royal name Seuserenre translates as "The one whom Re has caused to be strong." Khyan bears the titles of an Egyptian king, but also the title ruler of the foreign land (heqa-khaset). The later title is the typical designation of the Hyksos rulers

>Khyan is one of the better attested kings from the Hyksos period, known from many seals and seal impressions. Remarkable are objects with his name found at Knossos and Hattusha indicating diplomatic contacts with Crete and the Hittites. A sphinx with his name was bought on the art market at Baghdad and might demonstrate diplomatic contacts to Babylon, in an example of Egypt-Mesopotamia relations

>Ryholt notes that the name, Khyan, generally has been "interpreted as Amorite Hayanu (reading h-ya-a-n) which the Egyptian form represents perfectly, and this is in all likelihood the correct interpretation." It should be stressed that Khyan's name was not original and had been in use for centuries before the fifteenth (Hyksos) Dynasty. The name Hayanu is recorded in the Assyrian king lists—see "Khorsabad List I, 17 and the SDAS List, I, 16"--"for a remote ancestor of Shamshi-Adad I (c.1800 BC)."

>>17789730
>Shamshi-Adad (Akkadian: Šamši-Adad; Amorite: Shamshi-Addu), ruled c. 1813–1776 BC, was an Amorite warlord and conqueror who had conquered lands across much of Syria, Anatolia, and Upper Mesopotamia. His capital was originally at Ekallatum and later moved to Šubat-Enlil

>After the death of Shamshi-Adad I, Eshnunna captured cities around Assur. When the news of Shamshi-Adad I's death spread, his old rivals set out to topple his sons from the throne. Yasmah-Adad was soon expelled from Mari by Zimri-Lim (fl. c. 1775 BC – c. 1761 BC), and the rest of the empire was eventually lost during the reigns of Išme-Dagān I and Mut-Ashkur, first to a coalition of Mari, Andarig, and Eshnunna, then to another Amorite ruler, Hammurabi of Babylon (fl. c. 1792 BC – c. 1750 BC)

>The Old Babylonian Empire, or First Babylonian Empire, is dated to c.1894–1595 BC, and comes after the end of Sumerian power with the destruction of the Third Dynasty of Ur, and the subsequent Isin-Larsa period. The chronology of the first dynasty of Babylonia is debated; there is a Babylonian King List A and also a Babylonian King List B, with generally longer regnal lengths. In this chronology, the regnal years of List A are used due to their wide usage

>With little evidence on hand, there is not much known about the reigns of the kings from Sumuabum through Sin-muballit — other than the fact they were Amorites rather than Akkadians. What is known, however, is that they did not add much to the size of the territory. When the Amorite king Hammurabi came into power, his military victories were successful in gaining more land for the Empire. However, Babylon was just one of the several important powers among Isin and Larsa

>>17789713

>>17789625
You're that schizophrenic Swedish? Let's debate?? I can btfo you again

>>17789625
actually it is quite relevant
your whole post is pure carrion, you were the one who referred to the Mitanni, which again, without IE language

>>17789762
>You're that schizophrenic Swedish?
No.

>I can btfo you again
Both you and the Swede are retards who deserve each other. Now go kiss

>>17789741
Add one more sample to the list.

It's not much but I think there's reasonable evidence of steppe gene flow. Anyone want to speculate on the source?

>>17789632
It is a contradiction, for the simple fact that if you deny the Bible as having any degree of reliability, why would the supposed inspirations be true? And how do you determine these inspirations from other sources? How can we even be sure which "mythological source" is the oldest? Furthermore, you did not explain what kind of junction these were, you only said about a "conflict between Semites and Aryans". You should explain.
Is this hard to understand?
I still want to understand your post. By the way, why of all the "biblical tales", should the Exodus itself be considered a "real fact"? And is it real in relation to which historical fact? The history of the Hyksos and the Hebrews is extremely different, the only thing that unites them is that they were foreign people in Egypt, but this could be applied anywhere to any people, the same with the Nubians, for example

>>17789764
>actually it is quite relevant
There's no recorded IE languages in Iron Age Scandinavia either. I guess they didn't speak IE then.

>>17789771
Hey worm, is this the sample that was leaked that had 12% bell beakers? although 12% is pretty useless, maybe it could be consistent with at least a trivial indicator that there was some IE influx. anyway, your sample dates are messed up, try using samples closer to the supposed Hyksos conquest. and I don't think there are any "Hyksos" samples

>>17789780
>Hey worm, is this the sample that was leaked that had 12% bell beakers?
Hey that's not a very nice way to ask. What's with the attitude loser?
I'm just doing some investigation.

>>17789779
we wuzin is grotesque
false comparison, first of all, PROTO-GERMANIC was from the iron age, yes, but pre-proto-germanic, what the BAC spoke of, existed among the LBA, which means you failed in your example. Mitanni were an elite that possibly had some Indo-Aryan influence due to gods and common names, but that's it. no samples and nothing else relevant
it's cool that you yourself prove how useless this thread is, with an average of 3% steppe hahahaha

>>17789780
To answer your question: no BellBeaker found

>>17789785
>we wuzin is grotesque
Who in their right mind would identify as a Levantine-Egyptian-Iranian mutt?

>>17789110 (OP)
>I am aware that ancient Egypt was not a European civilization

>>17789782
stop being a crybaby, by the way look at this leaked sample
again, I searched day after day, night after night, siding with losers like your family to find the origin of this sample and APPARENTLY it comes from a leaked one. and that's it. those samples with almost 1/2 r1b turned out to be fakes. if the Hyksos were IE, they couldn't be older than 1400 BC at least, since the use of chariots in Europe began at this time

>>17789790
>>17789798
this sample is garbage, losers. kiss and have children by the way, this is very old... what source could steppe be? bell beakers would make sense, since the last study on Celtic languages said they arrived in Iberia very early, but if the g25 model is correct... I don't think it's a Celtic type for obvious reasons. maybe untice? via sword trade??? models on qpAdm would solve this doubt

>>17789771
>2100
>Intermediate Period of Ancient Egypt 1650-1550
nah they can't be Hyksos

>>17789798
There's no Bell Beaker in this sample. Are we even looking at the same sample? Israel_MLBA has trace Yamnaya by the way.

>>17789801
>>17789798
>>17789790

>>17789809
I'm not arguing the source, you idiot. I was talking about the presence of steppe in the sample
>yamnaya
unlikely. they didn't go beyond Hungary and why would they go down south? nowadays they are not even considered the vector for the Anatolian language

>>17789798
Governor of Djehutynakht? Who are him?

>>17789816
Djehutynakht, dated to the same time as the NakhtAnkh and KhnumNakht, exhibits a “European” haplogroup. Based on this sample, Ancient Egyptians were European. Absurd. Just like in the case of the Two Brothers, we can’t say much because of the small sample size.

>>17789824
I think it's either Yamnaya > Iran > Levant > Egypt
or Yamnaya > Caucasus > Armenia > Levant > Egypt

Iran neolithic showing up in the samples is a point for Iran I guess

at least, we know who the guy were
Djehutynakht (2000 bc), ruler of the Hare Nome in uUpper Egypt, had European mtDNA u5b2b5. This is originally from western Europe. Leaked data shows that he had autosomal ancestry from the Bell Beaker culture of western Europe. His haplogroup has also been found in BB samples 18th dynasty R1b may have also come from the BB culture. Analysis indicates it belongs to a western/central European clade associated with the BB culture.

>>17789844
Eurosistes keep trying to STEAL Egyptian history in 2026?
Neanderthal, 0% of these tested for autosomal DNA. In the first case, Djehutynakht having "European MtDNA" doesn't mean shit since mtdna is a small fraction of genome. Someone can be 90% African and still have a Euro MTDNA, dick face, i won and you lost with your shitty gcope25 models

Also the max planck study tested Greek & Roman periods

>>17789846
>keep trying to STEAL Egyptian history in 2026?
meds

>>17789849
Larp, Just to clarify, you consider this to be an Indo European Greek?

>>17789858
>>17789844


Hello my lord, I’m just looking for clarification here. I will be your servant
but doesn’t that mean the Djehutynakht and Theban woman samples we have are contaminated but the others from the leak are fine being they didn’t have Italian Bell Beaker admixture?

>>17789846
Kek
this Bell Beaker autosomal ancestry in Djehutynakht, according to analysis of leaked data, was also from northern Italy. The study from Harvard identified that he had European Bell Beaker-related mtDNA, also found in Italy
>>17789864
What?

>>17789858
What are you even asking? Do I consider it comparable to a Mycenaean Greek?

All I know is there appears to be a trickle of steppe genes. It's not much to talk about since there's only 7 samples + 1 _avg. With information like this one might be justified looking for IE loanwords in Egyptian and Hebrew I guess.

>>17789864
No, its fake; An Italian contimainted Egyptian samples some time ago and they came back green for northern Italy.

>>17789867
I don't know about the uniparental markers in this sample but it's pretty obvious does not have BellBeaker autosomal. It prefers Yamnaya over BellBeaker.

Egyptian_Middle_Kingdom-Djehuty_Nakht_2100B.C:I6130,0.053504150,0.13702279,-0.042256778,-0.088577892,0.0016483012,-0.037922341,-0.014478379,-0.0022917330,0.032911256,0.0051009809,0.0091531458,-0.013376381,0.026522487,0.0012096728,-0.0043573045,-0.0011185066,-0.021307803,0.000060763451,0.0033831153,0.0024352202,0.0013938619,-0.0017261886,0.0014597641,0.0049339092,0.0086866961

>>17789873
>yamnaya
Cope.

>>17789872
>An Italian contimainted Egyptian samples some time ago and they came back green for northern Italy.
This sample has no northern Italy

>>17789876
Compared to all the other samples, there is NO sign of contamination autosomally. It looks completely normal compared to other Egyptian samples with a slight uptick in steppe.

>>17789129
>>17789165
Two Phoenician samples from Chhim in Lebanon have R1b-M269. Another study found an influx of European ancestry into the Phoenician pop of Beirut at the end of the Bronze Age, associated with the Sea People

>>17789844
>Leaked data shows that he had autosomal ancestry from the Bell Beaker culture of western Europe.

>>17789867
>this Bell Beaker autosomal ancestry in Djehutynakht, according to analysis of leaked data, was also from northern Italy.

I6130 is NOT contaminated. It has NO BellBeaker. As far as I can tell some jackass made a screenshot with BellBeaker and you goobers bought it hook line and sinker without even doing admixture analysis on the sample yourselves. Everything in this list but two has steppe: >>17789771
A jump from 4.2% steppe to 12.6% is not contamination. That's called a CLINE.

Is this where we're at now? If the public gets their hands on rare samples with steppe admix some idiot will make a bad model and pretend there's contamination? Was this intentional? Because I think anti-IE clowns would stoop low enough to make a screenshot of a fallacious model and try to pass it off as contamination to keep others from actually looking at the sample.

It might be hard to find clear genetic signals for the Hyksos specifically but a side effect of researching this is that we can now see a steppe cline going across Iran, the Levant, and Egypt.

I've never read about this before. This might be the first time anyone's ever mentioned this phenomenon on the internet. You heard it here first folks.

>>17790622
Here's the Egypt steppe cline by itself

>>17790447
Djehutynakht (2000 bc), ruler of the Hare Nome in uUpper Egypt, had European mtDNA u5b2b5. This is originally from western Europe. Leaked data shows that he had autosomal ancestry from the Bell Beaker culture of western Europe. His haplogroup has also been found in BB samples.

>>17791156
Crisis of the 23rd Century (1st Intermediate Period in Egyptian historiography) apparently involved an (Ligurian-speaking?) Indo-European group from northern Italy invading or migrating to Egypt.

>>17791156
>Leaked data shows that he had autosomal ancestry from the Bell Beaker culture
>"Leaked data shows"
What is the point in this weasel wording? There is no "data leak showing Bell Beaker ancestry". If something was leaked it was the PCA coordinates themselves.

Do you even understand how this works? You can model fallacious ancestry in Vahaduo all day long. It doesn't mean it's real. I can put Bell Beaker in whenever I want. See pic. That sample is uncontaminated. Vahaduo + G25 helps you navigate 25-dimensional PCA space. If you don't know what you're doing you will model something historically inaccurate. All the responsibility is in the hands of the user.

>>17791156
Look at this chart.
BellBeaker: All zeroes

>>17791245
>>17791256
Yes, bell beakers

>>17789110 (OP)
Levantine female refugees escaping hunger according to strontium isotopes of their skeletons
> Contrary to the model of the Hyksos coming to power from a foreign invasion, we did not find more males moving into the region. Gender parity would have been expected with families moving as economic opportunities arose, but instead we find a sex bias towards females. The greater proportion of non-local females compared to males could fit with patrilocality in Egypt and the Near East [73], but this rather high proportion of 77% of females as non-local deserves more careful contextual consideration.

>The excavated cemeteries and domestic burials are assumed to be more representative of the elites of the city rather than the ‘common’ population [13], and it is possible that these women are coming to the region for marriages cementing alliances with powerful families from beyond the Nile. During the Middle Kingdom and Second Intermediate Period, there is more documentation of men with Egyptian names marrying women with non-Egyptian names than vice versa [74]. This attitude towards marriage to foreign families continues into the 18th Dynasty [75]: foreign women could marry into high status Egyptian families, but Egyptian women would not marry foreign kings. It would be interesting if the technological and cultural transmission of the Hyksos dynasty on later Egyptian culture could be viewed through the lens of gender theory to explore this potential contribution from the influx of immigrant women, if the collection analyzed in this paper is indeed representative of the larger migration patterns.

>>17791156
>European mtDNA u5b2b5
>>17789844
>European mtDNA u5b2b5
It seems the Bell Beaker interpretation hinges on this uniparental, but this is complete nonsense. Bell Beakers are not the only potential source of the uniparental.

As has already been shown repeatedly, modeling the autosomal ancestry with Bell Beaker makes no sense when Yamnaya overrides it. You can't get Vahaduo to so easily prefer Yamnaya over BellBeakers if you're modeling a genuine BellBeaker. The BBs are a Corded Ware offshoot with additional farmer and HG admix. There's too much drift in BBs away from Yamnaya. That's why Yamnaya results in better distances.

What you're actually seeing is something unique about Italy_North_BellBeaker_3 since it can be made to randomly pop up in Israel MLBA samples: >>17791245
It wouldn't surprise me if it had something like Levantine, Natufian, or something similar mixed in making it a good match for Levantine and Egyptian samples with trace steppe.

>>17792528
There's no Hyksos samples cataloged, therefore, post 1000% disregarded

>>17792897
The lineage is BB
Not yamnaya.
>>17792528
Source please

>>17792897
This mtDNA is from Europe. It's a WHG haplogroup. There are plenty of samples with this haplogroup from Northeast Africa. Lots of Nubian samples. Where exactly they entered North Africa is hard to tell. Could be farmers, could be Beakers. The oldest samples with this subclade are South European farmers from Italy and Iberia.

Also, speaking of Hyksos. If they were at least partially Indo-European they would be Indo-Aryans. They were supposedly the guys that brought chariots and horses to Egypt.

There's an outlier sample from Bronze Age Levant that is R1a-Z93, so it's not impossible.
>>17789165
Might be this guy.

>>17793394
>the lineage is BB
It's really not.

https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_dna/slideshow_samples.php?searchcolumn=mtDNA_haplogroup&searchfor=U5b2b5&ybp=500000,0

>>17793420
>There's an outlier sample from Bronze Age Levant that is R1a-Z93
Is he already in the charts posted in this thread?
If not please give me a label or unique ID for this sample. I will even go hunt for it on genarchivist if the coordinates are available. If you don't know where it is I will get ChatGPT to find it.

>>17793413
>This mtDNA is from Europe. It's a WHG haplogroup.
That's the bottom line isn't it? It's not possible to uniquely associate the haplo with Indo-Europeans so I don't see the reason why anyone would want to insist this sample is Bell Beaker against all odds.

This sample is supposed to be royalty so I don't see why any fuss needs to be made over a European haplogroup. Egyptian royalty could have been gifted Neolithic European wives for whatever reason or they could have simply sailed somewhere and kidnapped them. Weird haplos show up when the population is able to make long distance connections.

Israel_MLBA_o:I2200 is probably a Mitanni sample since it prefers Sintashta over Yamnaya.

I'm noticing three steppe admix mediators in Iran, the Levant, and Egypt: direct Yamnaya (limited in scope), steppe admixed Maikop, and Sintashta, so it's probably best to think of this as multiple waves of steppe gene flow.

>>17793427
worm? there is evidence of bell beakers in north africa, not yamnaya. it makes no chronological sense much less material.
Sorry, its bb

>>17793493
Not reading that cope
>>17793579
>Mitanni
Not

>>17793579
>Mitanni
>sintashta
there are no confirmed samples as such. disregarded

>>17793420
What would Indo-Aryans have to do with it? If you were talking about the Mittani, it would be less retarded, but why would they be Indo-Aryans? It doesn't make sense. Especially chronologically. There are no Hyksos samples and Archaeologically, as the other retard BB Rider says here, we only have archaeological evidence of BB presence as far away as eastern Morocco and parts of Algeria. Furthermore, we have some samples that may be Indo-Aryans or at least related to them. And this is consistent with cultural aspects and migration theories, as well as chronologically.

>>17793420
His samples has less than 30% steppe
And could be anything.
>mitanni
Unlikely, since they but it could be Gutians
remembering that we have samples with IBD Yamnaya in Iran, pre-Iranian

>>17793912
There is a cline of Yamnaya genes from Iran and the Caucasus to Lebanon, Israel, Syria, Jordan (yes even Jordan), and Egypt. It shows up in MLBA samples from these regions. Iranians were migrating all the way to Egypt bringing steppe and WHSG admix with them.

The steppe admix is so well spread around it's tempting to say the main hotspots other than Iran are unsampled. It could indicate the spreaders of the genes were very mobile because they were pastoralists.

>>17793579
>Maykop
Hmmm dont make sense
>yamnaya
They didn't go as far as Hungary or as far south as the Balkans, going to Egypt is unlikely. And the big flaw in your Gcpe96 model:
The oldest Yamnaya are dated to 3100, and the most recent to no more than 2500 BC according to Lazaridis.
So, this Egyptian sample has an age that doesn't correlate with the dates above. Unless the "Yamnaya" for some reason wanted to sunbathe and travel through temporal wormholes? You could claim that they could be Mycenaean Greeks, which is less retarded. Since it fits better chronologically. Even the amount of steppe is consistent

>>17793958
The highest Yamnaya Egypt sample at 12.6% is from 2100 BC. What's the problem?
Nobody is suggesting a direct trek from the steppes to Egypt. They would have mixed with an intermediary population first.

Maikop samples vary in G25. Some have steppe admix. One possibility is some Maikop admix was picked up while crossing the Caucasus.

>>17793976
Also I said "direct Yamnaya" admix would be limited in scope. There's that Bronze Age Iran sample with a lot of Yamnaya that doesn't require a lot of intermediary populations.

>>17793952
let's try again;
there is evidence of BB presence in North Africa, but no Yamnaya or Sintashta. the only group that corresponds to any "IE" in the region could be the BB. the other anons have good arguments about how Yamnaya in Egypt is cope
he had European Bell Beaker-related mtDNA, also found in Italy.
The 18th dynasty lineage appears to belong to a different branch of R1b (R1b-P312), associated with the Bell Beaker culture in central/western Europe.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC14590/

Its over

>>17793976
Can't you read it? It doesn't make any sense that it's Yamnaya, damn it.
It's really old and there's no reason why they would migrate it
You didn't answer me at all
>>17793998
Bell beakers in Egypt? Unlike

>>17793937
This.

>>17793998
If I'm not mistaken, there are BB pots in Morocco
>>17793579
What a shitty model

>>17793998
The 18th dynasty is from a totally different time period though. What's the point in bringing this up?

>>17794001
I already tested the sample for Greek admix (Both Minoan and Mycenaean) and Bell Beaker admix. Why does it not make sense for the ultimate source of steppe genes to be Yamnaya? They can be the source but I would expect them to mix with intermediaries before reaching Egypt. Yamnaya did in fact go south across the Caucasus.

>>17793945
Z-93 is a typical Indo-Aryan marker.
>>17793937
Mitanni were Indo-Aryans. Or rather they had some connection to them.

>>17793912
There is evidence of farmers in North Africa, then indirect evidence of Beakers and also evidence of Indo-Aryans in ancient Levant. There were clearly multiple migrations.
Add to this migrations from Anatolia and through Caucasus.
But this is about Hyksos, so it has nothing to do with Beakers migrating to Egypt between 2500-2000 BCE.

>>17794017
I accept your concession
Its over, anon.

>>17794031
What are you talking about? You haven't even made an argument yet

>>17794023
>Mitanni were Indo-Aryans. Or rather they had some connection to them
You must be that Swede from /pol/
Damn, did you even understand the post? The Mittani were not a direct branch of the Rigveds, but rather related to them. And remember that the evidence is purely linguistic and nomenclatural, the names of the deities present changes, for example. So, if we can get a sample of them, it would be more logical to say descendants of the "Proto-Indo-Aryan" branch, not an offshoot of the Vedas. And of course, there is no relation with the Hyksos, this is your personal theory. As the OP said, the Hyksos had northern Levantine material culture.

>>17794033
He always says that when he's lost and has no where to go. He's gambling that nobody will call his bluff. It's pretty funny because he's clearly an idiot but he himself does not know it yet

>>17794039
>You must be that Swede from /pol/

Can you go one thread without ranting and raving about that board? You're on /his/. Focus on /his/. It's been nine years now. Seek help.

>muh pots in North Africa
Reminder that pots are not people when it comes to BBs. There was an EEF BB culture before the IE BB culture.

>>17794039
I'm not. I'm not even some retarded nordicist. Hyksos had chariots and horse burials, which is something they probably borrowed from Indo-Aryans. I don't believe they were IA, but I think it's possible that at least some of them could be.
There's a guy with R1a-Z93 in MLBA Israel. That's around the time of Hyksos.

>>17794023
There's no bell beakers in Levant, only in north africa, and This evidence is pretty weak, but hardly from the Mitanni where we have the name of Indra, Varuna and some personal names, in North Africa at least we have some material and genetic evidence. One study used qpAdm and modeled the ancient Guanches as having 5~10% bell beakers. Is it insignificant? Sure. But it's better than evidence supported solely by etymology, although I accept the latter, by the way. You're confusing me with the other guy. The R1A found in the Levant is not really in the areas of Mitanni dominance, and although you're an atheist or some shit like that, the Bible mentions how some Scythian groups raided the Levant, so it could be any Indo-Iranian

>>17794045
We accept your concession ;)
>>17794055
they are retarded, they use models with samples that do not make temporal sense

>>17794055
That sample is from 1500 BCE. That's what, 700 years before Scythians?

>>17794045
>muh yamnaya in le desert
>muh le mittttaniii
>Reminder that pots are not people when it comes to BBs.
therefore, random etymologies are not people and much less gods name, given the pagan syncretism
thread conclusion? no evidence for IE in these regions
thanks anon

>>17794065
furthermore, by saying this, you must necessarily deny the existence of 1/3 of the IE groups, since their vast majority come from pot and tomb continua. so yes, no yamnaya as people, no CWC as people and no andronovo as people. whatever is considered evidence of "groups", I imagine only if they had self-registered? so many Germanic groups that are known only from Roman accounts or Iranian groups mentioned centuries after their supposed decline, must be called into question

This is so stupid. Are there even North African BBs with steppe admix or is it just pots and EEF/native North Africans?

All this is irrelevant anyway since we are talking about 2100 BC, not the 18th dynasty.

>>17794074
It's a problem with BBs because the EEF BBs came first. Corded Ware came and took EEF women who knew how to make BB pottery. There's nothing more to it than that. I'm sorry you won't admit it.

>>17794060
>1500 BC
I'm going to believe your dating is correct, but either way, these biblical accounts of horse-riding nomadic groups are an abstract term for that.
I didn't use the name of any specific tribe for this reason, horse-riding nomads existed much earlier. The point is that this r1a is just a marker for an _o and could be anything, but that's not the point of my post.
>>17794074
Ironically correct

>>17794083
>It's a problem with BBs because the EEF BBs came first
see how stupid you are? after I used your exact same argument, you co-existently say
>actually, it's just the BB!
assume that your argument depended on that, there's nothing you can do. the choice is yours;
if pots are not people, then 1/3 of the IE are not people
besides, not that a piece of trash like you knows, the original BB had as much steppe as the Sintashta and came from the Rhine. and if the problem is the "pots", CWC has a variety of pots and many of them have combination and continuity with GAC, andronovo with BMAC and so on etc.
genetics is more important here

>>17794093
>ignoring what I just said
Show me the North African BBs with steppe admix and show me how any of this is relevant to 2100 BC

>>17792528
Slave trading. Euros selling other euros into slavery

>>17793937
Chronology is wrong

>>17794031
Thank you. My concession was that you are dumb loser who should it's. I will lend you rope if you to poor to buy it.

I know of no other ancient Egyptian samples to test so I decided to look at modern Egyptians. They have small amounts of steppe admix too, but the surprising part is it's apparently not all mediated through Greeks.

Of course, some Egyptians have detectable Mycenaean admix as expected, but these Coptic samples do not. Vahaduo still prefers to model their steppe admix through Yamnaya.

Conclusion? The steppe admix contributors to ancient Egypt had a large enough population to spread their genes around such that traces of their ancestry still persist in modern Egyptians. It's unlikely that singular random outliers could preserve a sign of their legacy, so I expect that there were more at some place and time. (Note that I am not saying that whoever these people were, they must have had high steppe admix.)

Here's a look a the Jordan Bronze Age.

>Admixtures

>>17796242
Somewhat surprisingly, Russia_Afanasievo offers better distances than Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya.

To make sense of this, first understand that it doesn't suggest Afanasievo went into Iran and the Levant. Russia_Afanasievo has samples of pure WSHs located in a different geographical location, and they are unadmixed due to their rapid migration. The reason they can offer better distances is due to genetic variation within WSHs. WSHs existed on a cline between the CLV and Ukraine_N. I would assume Russia_Afanasievo offers a slightly better position on the cline for modeling certain populations.