How in the heck did uncreated Quran become a mainstream Muslim belief it makes absolutely no sense

It's absolutely wild isn't it
How do Muslims see the divinity of the Quran? Is it an eternally created non divine thing? Is it divine as the Word of God?

>>17790408 (OP)
>>17790451
The logic is really simple actually
The Qur'an (the words, not the literal book) is the word of Allah, Allah is beyond time, therefore when he was composing the Qur'an he was composing it in his head outside of Time because he doesn't actually have a head...

You get what I mean right? It makes sense

>>17790512
Muslims believe it exists on an eternal uncreated tablet in heaven

>the speech of God is eternal
>yet the some of the words of the speech of God come before others...
>but he still said all his words outside of time
>but in order

>>17790408 (OP)
>>17790451
>>17790620
its simpler then that
to say it is created is to say it is a creature and hence open to philosophical discussion and debate, this was the line followed by the Muatazala school which greatly angered the rest of the scholars who considered the Quran to be beyond such greek nonsense
so they had to invent a way to make it beyond crticism, the mutazala school eventually died out and so that view became mainstream

>>17790687
don't the Shia hold the same views as the Mutazilites on the created nature of the Quran?
Basically doesn't it go roughly like this :
Unified Ummah -> Ali'ites/Abuites legal schism -> schism curtailed ->mutazilism (createdness argument ->schism curtailed ->shi'ite Ali'ite revivalism -> adoption of createdness (mutazilism revival) ->modern shi'a Islam

>>17790697
Shias believe the Quran is pre existent but created

>>17790687
doesn't that make the Quran almost a second God?

*Sunnis only.

>>17790408 (OP)
>a mainstream Muslim belief
While it's something the orthodox clerics have reached a consensus on, the vast majority of Muslims wouldn't even know what you're talking about if you asked them about it.

>>17790719
It’s like The Trinity except hypocritical because Muslims hate The Trinity

>>17790719
Yes it absolutely does, but muslims are too low IQ
and theologically retarded to even notice.

>>17790724
Allahu 'alam, basically
I hate that fucking formula so much

>>17790719
wait until you hear about the fact that the Quran has a Mother.

>>17790408 (OP)
Like i have always said.
Shia politics + Mutazillah philosophy + Quranist theology for the dream combo

lmfao
as if there's a fact of the matter of it being uncreated or not - The Qur'an - it's a story made-up by Muhammad and later written down

Muslims can say whatever they want, right? And they say a lot of different things
You just have to settle it with each different tradition, case by case basis

>>17790620
The order of the words is eternal. What's wrong about that?

>>17790850
why did uthman need to burn the other Qurans if the Quran's word order is inviolable?

>>17790854
You're using the word "Quran" in two different senses (One meaning any physical book that's portrayed as the written revelation of Muhammad, and the word of God as it existed in Allah before creation)

>>17790859
ok, but then you implicitly admit that God's Word can be lost, hidden or worse, corrupted, correct? Because otherwise there is no other explanation as to why Uthman would have burned the other Qurans. Either God's Word is Self-Evident and cannot be corrupted, hidden or lost, or it is not, and is therefore susceptible to those three evils.

>>17790719
>>17790725
My experience of Muslims has been that they basically worship the religion of Islam itself and often ascribe actions or will to Islam in the same terms that other religions might speak about God or gods. You could argue that Allah, the Quran and Islam form a kind of trinity.

>>17790860
Again, what do you mean by "God's word"? Do you mean any physical book that has the title "Quran" on it, or His words in an abstract sense (as they exist in His mind)?

>>17790872
Let's assume that the Quran is two distinctive objects who exist in one nature : the Word of God, and the book upon which It is written.
If you were to modify the book, would you not agree that it is a dissimulation of the actual, transcendant Word?

>>17790872
How do you identify what is the true Quran, God's word? How do you distinguish it from a similar but ultimately corrupted book?

>>17790560
Source? I don't believe you
>>17790620
They were revealed to Mohammad in an order, and also they were composed in an order. What part of that doesn't make sense? I can theoretically write 2 words at the same time, one with each hand, but if I'm writing a sentence this way then I will compose it such that one comes before the other, even though I've enscribed them onto paper at the same time. Don't you know how printing works?

>>17790719
Yes, by their own definition the Quran, Muhammad and Kaaba worship all Muslims do would be major shirk, but muzzies aren't very bright and don't see the hypocrisy.

>>17790687
>the mutazala school eventually died out
They didn't die out. They went over to shi'ism after mutazilism became taboo which conveniently adopted mutazila beliefs around the same time. As such shias became double heretics

If the quran always existed then that means there is something that wasn't created by Allah. If the quran is an aspect of Allah then Allah is a cuck who is partly a book written for humans. The same humans that he hasn't even created yet at the beginning of time, making him basically the bitch of humans. It's completely retarded. It would be better for Sunnis to just say that the Quran was created by Allah, it would bring nothing but advantages to adopt this stance.

>>17790879
No. God brings down the 10 commandments and i could just as easily write my own version and spread it around, it doesn't say anything about the the law that was set down

>>17790915
By checking the isnad

>Quran was always there just like Allah
>it was always part of Allah because it's his speech and his speech is as eternal as Allah himself
>humans are mentioned in the Quran and the intended audience of the Quran
>humans didn't exist at the beginning of time, humans were created
>if humans never existed, the Quran would have no reason to exist
Humans are the reason for the Quran to exist. Our existence retroactively caused the existence of the Quran. This part of Allah the eternal only exists because of us even though we came later. Allah had to create us. Allah himself had no choice in that matter. If he didn't create us, the Quran which is a part of Allah wouldn't exist since it mentions us humans and is supposed to be read by us humans. Ergo humans are above the Quran and Allah.

>>17791684
That exists for the Quran too? I thought it was just for hadith
Even then, does God infallibly guarantee that the chain of transmission passed down the ages is true?

It makes perfect sense actually, im surprised this is so hard to get for people here, then again this isn't a philosophy board.

The law exists without any justification for itself, it places itself as its own authority and their is nothing sensible about it. The particularity of the laws: dont steal, dont kill, etc, are sensible BUT the law as such is nonsensical. It does not derive its authority from within the social order but stands firmly outside it which is how it has a firm grasp on people. For example their is no reason why their are 10 commandments and not 20, 25, 60, and this very fact of their being no particularity behind an aspect of the law is what gives the law a sense of transcendents, that it has no legislator. Their can be no contingency where the reason why we only have 604 pages in the Quran because Muhammed didnt have enough ink or lost a bunch of pages as he tripped and the wind blew them by.

Infact it is very clear within islam that the quran was not originally written by anyone, that it was actually brought down readily made from the heavens as the direct word of God. Rather then the particularity of Christianity where the Bible is only the inspired word of God, the Qurans Law maintains that it has no legislator.

>>17791684
The fact that it is written for humans does not negate its co-eternal nature, because what compels you to be at the mercy of the law itself is that it stands alone eternally unjustified.

>>17791771
Second response meant for>>17791700

>>17791624
https://islamweb.net/en/fatwa/309664/the-quran-was-in-the-preserved-tablet-before-creation-of-earth

>>17790790
>Quranist theology
You mean "picking an arabic lexicon and deciding what words mean based on your political leaning"? That's not theology anon.

>>17790869
THIS

>>17791674
But whether or not God brings it down again or not, the dissimulation of the transcendant Word on Earth_still_ happens. Therefore, it brings into question whether or not the Word is dissimulable or not. And if it is, then it is not Self-Evident, and therefore not the Word.
Stop tiptoein around the issue, it's unbecoming.