>In ancient lays, their only type of historical tradition, they celebrate Tuisto, a god brought forth from the earth. They attribute to him a son, Mannus, the source and founder of their people, and to Mannus three sons, from whose names those nearest the ocean are called Ingvaeones, those in the middle Herminones, and the rest Istvaeones. Some people, inasmuch as antiquity gives free rein to speculation, maintain that there were more sons born from the god and hence more tribal designations—Marsi, Gambrivii, Suebi, and Vandilii—and that those names are genuine and ancient.

Mannus is clearly related to the proto-Germanic word mannaz, from which we get the word 'man', so we can assume the myth is accurate. Presumably, the son who the tribe of the Herminones/Irminones would be named after is Irmin, and Irmin is used as an epithet for Odin in the Poetic Edda several times.

Does this mean that Tacitus actually mentions Odin by name?

>>17795372 (OP)
Odin is 100% post bronze age i.e. non_aryan
It's a shitty shamanic deity probably of GAC origin

>>17795399
>pre-bronze age deity from a farmer culture hides somewhere the entire Bronze Age and then pops up to take over the Norse pantheon during Roman times
vgh...there are no words in anglic, norse or the gothic language for this mediterranean treachery

>>17795403
>>17795399
Odin was not always the chief deity. Odin became the Chief deity when he replaced Tyr because the priestly role merged with the chief role.

>>17795403
Look at the languages even, Germanic languages have I think a liberal estimate is 40% of influence from pre-Indo-European proto-Nordic language.
Indo-Europeans did not have boats, nor did they use them for religious purposes, the Paleo-Europeans did, and what do we see in Scandinavia? Much greater emphasis on boats, the sea, ships, and other things. Almost no Chariots in Scandinavia and where there are Chariots they are found in Denmark, not in Sweden and Norway.

>>17795426
it is a fact that the Germanic people are not IE in almost anything
their mythology is strange and without parallels, their gods are shamanic and so different that we have to force similarities, and there is evidence of HG substrate

>>17795403
See the Vanir group of deities in Norse mythology, thry represent pre-Indo-European deities or Indo-European fertility gods, adding another layer to the complexity of Odin's origins

>>17795433
>>17795430
>>17795403
cuckdin is definitely hunter-jeet or farmbug trash.
there are aspects of cuckdin's mythology that don't seem to align directly with other Indo-European deities, and his deep connections to knowledge, magic, and the dead aren't easily reflected in other gods of the Indo-European pantheon. it sounds like keto trash, it sounds a lot like those Etruscan or Iberian gay gods.

This suggests origins from a distinct cultural tradition that may have existed before the Indo-European migration into northern Europe, did you know that even northern European houses are of funnelbeaker origin? and many tombs were reused?

despite being the titular "chief of the gods", Odin is in many ways more of a shaman than other Indo-European deities. shamanism smells like chinkcope to me, so maybe it's SHG.

This is clearly reflected in his practices of seeking knowledge through deep spiritual journeys, along with his association with animals and birds of prey.

>>17795372 (OP)
No, he refers to Odin as mercury because of both of the gods’ peripatetic natures

>>17795425
This is complete fanficition based on the fact that Tyr is etymologically cognate with Zeus, but there’s no evidence that Tyr was ever actually Germanic Zeus beyond word association.
>>17795433
The Vanir don’t represent anything. With the exception of abhor the, Freyr, and Freya who are all functionally Aesir, the Vanir are vague, non-descript, and otherwise totally absent from mythological sources.

>>17795446
Odin's origins remain a matter of debate. However, there is evidence to suggest that the sky god Tyr, whose name is linked to the root of the word "god," may have been the original leader of the Norse pantheon. During the Age of Migrations, the later Proto-Germanic "shaman" known as Odin emerged and replaced him. By capturing the runes and becoming their master, Odin took his place not only as a wise old man, but also as the original shaman and supreme spiritual leader.

>>17795372 (OP)
Yes, he equates Odin with Mercury via Interpretatio romana
The connection with Mercury and Odin makes sense. Both are associated with extensive travel, secret knowledge, magic, trickery, and a role in the guiding of souls.

>>17795399
I don't think that it is particularly helpful to look at other "Indo-European" pantheons for comparison with the Norse pantheon. The idea that all Indo-European peoples would have the same structure to their gods is an understandable mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. Indo-European peoples are a grouping that is primarily concerned with linguistics and language change. While there are some common cultural elements that are evident in their pre-Christian belief systems, trying to compose a singular "Indo-European" approach to their gods that should be the same across cultural lines and across the millennia seems a bit far fetched to me. Why shouldn't the chief deity in a pantheon change a little over time? As worshipers encounter new ideas, respond to new problems, and change culturally it is only natural to expect that the most prominent deities will change over time, and indeed this is the case in Greek pantheon as you mention.

>>17795459
Realizing right now that the nordic neopagans are ironically worshipping a cargo cult spawned in imitation of Attila the Hun— Odin is just a mythologized form of Attila the Hun— my theory that their mythos is post-apocalyptic is correct— it was created in the aftermath of Attila the Hun.

>>17795372 (OP)
>Mannus is clearly related to the proto-Germanic word mannaz, from which we get the word 'man', so we can assume the myth is accurate.
You can assume that part is accurate. You can't extend it to the whole thing.
Just because Wilusa is a real city, doesn't mean that the Trojan War happened as Homer described.

Nevertheless, Tacitus did strive for accuracy. So it's all probably mostly true.

>>17795474
Hunnic steppechads are based, Heyerdahl considered Odin to be Turkic long ago. Varg probably would consider Attila whiter than modern Italians too.

>>17795451
the war between the Aryans and the Early European Farmers was quite one-sided; as was the case in most of Europe.
In Norse myth the war between the two tribes was a draw. We, white/pagans, honour both parts of our legacy, we should to honour both tribes of Gods
Everyone against the abrahamic desert shitty
Hail steppe
Hail agriculture

>>17795477
>You can't extend it to the whole thing.
translation ? Its 200% fake

>>17795481
The ancient norse stories of Odin punishing those who commit incest always made me wonder if it was just a WEIRD Christian interpretation.
But, it was probably some tradition passed down from the Steppe. Which appears downstream in norse, greek, roman mythology and germanic culture.

>>17795439
He is truly uniquely Germanic. Though he attained Dhyeauwas Pater status, he is not a direct forebear of said god… he is not Zeus nor Jupiter nor Tyr (who is compatible)

>>17795474
just read that the Norse God Odin was known as "Wuotan" in High German. And he had a clan. I think you all know where I'm going with this.
Odin was a king mentioned throughout the Saxon Chronicles. the modern odin is a fantasy.l

>>17795451
ok thanks for the ChatGPT post but your argument is still premised entirely on faulty word association. Tyr is etymologically related to Zeus, which simply means god or sky.

>>17795474
Tacitus refers to "mercury" or Odin worship by germans hundreds of years before Attila the Hun's birth.
And in any event, Attila the Hun is alredy personally a major character in germanic paganism, where he's a separate entity from Odin. How would this happen if Odin was Attila?

>>17795492
>nor Tyr (who is compatible)
list all of the sky-fatherly attributes of Tyr.
Impossible mode: the etymology of his name doesn't count.

>>17795372 (OP)
>>17795442
>>17795459
What I find interesting with the identification with Hermes/Mercury is that Norse Mythology is obsessed with the number 9 and Hermes Trismegistus (that means Hermes Thrice Great, that is, 3+3+3), has this name because the Egyptian version he was based on, Thoth, was the patron god of the Ogdoad.

>Thoth was the patron god of Khemenu (Cities of the Eight/Ogdoad), known to the Greeks as Hermopolis. Being that the frogs and some snakes (Hydrophiinae) are inseminated from within water, the Ancient Egyptians must have seen the frog/serpent as being born of pure chaos, chaos here being defined as no distinguishable role between seed and nurturer in the development of the tadpole's life. They were born of chaos and thus are lords of chaos. Their interaction caused a mound of mud/land to emerge from the primordial waters, on which an Ibis (a bird associated with Thoth) laid an egg, from which the sun god Ra-Atum (Atum-Ra) who in turn engenders the Heliopolis 9-god family called the Ennead

>Nine is the number of worlds/homes connected via Yggdrasil, the cosmic world tree (Vǫluspá), that Woden hung himself from for nine days

-Nine is the number of witches in the wood (iviði) existing before the present world tree (Vǫluspá)

>Nine are the mothers of Hama
'World Dazzling', all sisters (Hyndluljóð, Heimdalargaldr, Snorri)

>Nine are the daughters owned by the ocean jötunn Aegir and Rán, personified in waves, streams, brightness and gold, often deadly (Snorri)

>Nine are the rune-carving daughters of the ocean god Njǫrðr, awaiting in the afterlife (Sólarljóð)

>Nine is the number of nights of the Nórna dómr - 'the verdict of the norns', where you sit in the Nornarstóll - 'the chair of the norns' after death, receiving your Fates' verdicts before moving on (Sólarljóð, Fafnismál) to what appears to be a whole specter of different afterlife possibilities

>Nine is the number of worlds in which Hel rules (Snorri)

>>17795372 (OP)
>>17795442
>>17795459
What I find interesting with the identification with Hermes/Mercury is that Norse Mythology is obsessed with the number 9 and Hermes Trismegistus (that means Hermes Thrice Great, that is, 3+3+3), has this name because the Egyptian version he was based on, Thoth, was the patron god of the Ogdoad.

>Thoth was the patron god of Khemenu (Cities of the Eight/Ogdoad), known to the Greeks as Hermopolis. Being that the frogs and some snakes (Hydrophiinae) are inseminated from within water, the Ancient Egyptians must have seen the frog/serpent as being born of pure chaos, chaos here being defined as no distinguishable role between seed and nurturer in the development of the tadpole's life. They were born of chaos and thus are lords of chaos. Their interaction caused a mound of mud/land to emerge from the primordial waters, on which an Ibis (a bird associated with Thoth) laid an egg, from which the sun god Ra-Atum (Atum-Ra) who in turn engenders the Heliopolis 9-god family called the Ennead

>Nine is the number of worlds/homes connected via Yggdrasil, the cosmic world tree (Vǫluspá), that Woden hung himself from for nine days

>Nine is the number of witches in the wood (iviði) existing before the present world tree (Vǫluspá)

>Nine are the mothers of Hama 'World Dazzling', all sisters (Hyndluljóð, Heimdalargaldr, Snorri)

>Nine are the daughters owned by the ocean jötunn Aegir and Rán, personified in waves, streams, brightness and gold, often deadly (Snorri)

>Nine are the rune-carving daughters of the ocean god Njǫrðr, awaiting in the afterlife (Sólarljóð)

>Nine is the number of nights of the Nórna dómr - 'the verdict of the norns', where you sit in the Nornarstóll - 'the chair of the norns' after death, receiving your Fates' verdicts before moving on (Sólarljóð, Fafnismál) to what appears to be a whole specter of different afterlife possibilities

>Nine is the number of worlds in which Hel rules (Snorri)

>>17795679
>Nine is the number of worlds beneath Misty Hel (Vafþrúðnismál)

>Ninth is the heaven ruled by Freyia, Fólkvangr (Grímnismál)

>Nine, or three by nine, is the number of valkyriur riding together (Helgakviða I, II & H. Hiǫrvarðssonar)

>Nine is the number of nights that Woden hung on the tree (Hávamál)

>Nine is the number of nights that Hermóðr spent riding down to Hel (Snorri)

>Nine is the number of nights that Skírnir rode down to the death-realm of Gerðr (Skírnismál)

>Nine is the number of nights that Yngve must wait before he can meet Gerðr in the breezeless grove (Skírnismál)

>Nine is the number of spellsongs that Woden received when he hung

>Nine is the number of spellsongs that Woden made himself (Hávamál)

>Nine is the number of spellsongs that Gróa sang from her grave (Gróagaldr)

>Nine is the number of maidens seated beneath the Tree of Memory on the Mountain of Medicine (Fjölsvinnsmál)

Iit's better to think about it as thrice three because three is the truly important number. Three is the number of manifestation.

1 is primordial masculine-feminine, but it is indivisible and complete. 2 is primordial masculine and feminine and is divisible, but only to one. 3 is 1 reborn, but it is the first "manifested" number, the number of the "world of multiplicity." Thrice three encompasses being.

It is also a lunar number, and we reside in the sublunar realm. 9*3 days in a sidereal month, or 3*3*3. there are also nine stations in the heavens; the seven planets and the two lunar nodes. All of being is encompassed by nine, the cycle repeats itself after this, but by a higher degree.

Nine is deeply related to digital roots. it is a sort of "seed number." the digital root of any number that equals nine is divisible by nine. the digital root of any number that is not nine is the remainder after dividing by nine.

Is the Mitra-Varuna hypothesis still taken seriously? If so, that would explain a lot of the questions in this thread regarding Odin and Tyr.

>>17795372 (OP)
Mani and Twin were probably the Indo-European or at least the Proto-Germanic 'First Men'.
Otherwise it's only oblique via the equating to Mercury. Who also had a role as the ferryman of the dead and as a wizard.
>>17795433
The term Vanir is probably just an artifact of Norse poetic conventions, rather than being a meaningful distinction.
>https://www.academia.edu/3695142/Verses_versus_the_Vanir_Response_to_Simeks_Vanir_Obituary_

>>17795430
germanic gods come from huns and other steppe niggers

>>17795715
>A Germanic god Irmin, inferred from the name Irminsûl and the tribal name Irminones, is in some older scholarship presumed to have been the national god or demi-god of the Saxons. It has been suggested that Irmin was more probably an aspect or epithet of some other deity – most likely Wodan (Odin). Irmin might also have been an epithet of the god Ziu (Tyr) in early Germanic times, only later transferred to Odin, as certain scholars subscribe to the idea that Odin replaced Tyr as the chief Germanic deity at the onset of the Migration Period. This was the favored view of early 20th century Nordicist writers, but it is not generally considered likely in modern times

>Irmin and Saxnot are two Old Saxon gods, whom certain researchers equate with the god Ziu (Old Saxon *Tiu; the name, however, has never been preserved!). But other meanings are also possible

>Irmin is only named by the monk Widukind of Corvey, in connection with the destruction of Irminsul. Widukind claims that Irmin can be equated with the Greek god Hermes and the Roman god Mars. Because Mars is the god of war, it is accepted that Irmin could be a form of *Tiu*. The Nordic god name Jörmunr corresponds to this, which is one of the many names of the god Odin. Therefore, a simile with the Old Saxon god Wodan is also possible. The name means "great, universal." Because Widukind's position is confused, many researchers consider Irmin to be a spurious god

>An irminsul or ermensul (/ˈer.men.sul/) is an object or symbol depicting something sacred by the Saxons, a group of ancient Germanic tribes. It is not known clearly what It is usually described as a 'divine tree', 'tree', '(tree) altar', or 'sacred pillar'. According to the former, Irminsul is presumed to refer to a world tree comparable to Yggdrasil in Norse mythology, and Benedictine Rudolf von Fulda, a monk, propounded this theory

>>17795786
>Analyzing the vocabulary of irminsul, the prefix '*irmin-' or '*ermin-', which is derived from the Proto-Germanic word '*ermunaz', meaning 'strong' or 'great', is derived from the meaning of 'furrow' or 'plow'. It is a combination of '-sul'. '*irmin-' is presumed to have the same etymology as 'jormun-' in Old Norse. Irmin was also the name of one of the gods and gods of war worshiped by the ancient Saxons, which was also identified with Odin, the god of war, or Tyr, the god of war in Norse. In light of these myths, it is possible that irminsul was a religious symbol related to irmin

>In the Old Saxon baptismal vow, the newly baptized Saxons worshipped their ancient gods, which the Saxons had to renounce. In the ancestral table of the kings of Essex in England, the Saxon god is the Soo von Wóden, and thus he can be considered the forefather of the Saxons. His name means either "Gnosis of the Saxon" or "Sword Gnosis," since a Sax is the name for the knight's sword. Thus, he is synonymous with the war and tribal god *Tiu woorschinli

>However, representatives of the three-function system assume that Saxnot belonged to the third function and therefore must have been a fertility god

>It is likely that Tiw (Tyr) was the original “irmin- god,” the greatest of the gods, to whom the Saxon Irminsul (Irmin-Pillar) was dedicated. On the daily human level, the Irminsul is embodied by the house-pillars; on the cosmic level it is the World-Tree, which preserves the levels of being by holding them apart and at the same time, as the central axis of the universe, connects them; and this is shown in the shape of the rune tiwaz, which can be interpreted either as the spear or as the pillar holding up the heavens. In the Old High German “Hildebrantslied,” the warrior Hildebrant calls upon “irmingot” (“the Irmin-god”) and “waltant got” (“the ruling god”) to witness the terrible fate which “Woe-Wyrd” has wrought for him

>>17795477
The Trojan War happened as Homer described

>>17795798
>tyr as the God of War
I don't agree with that at all
I don't like the tripartite theory, either.
It always comes off as extrapolating far beyond the source material that wale have or Orientalist chicanery where they treat the Indians as being the most 'pure' Indo-Europeans rather than heavily derived in their own way.

>>17795786
>>17795798
the irminsul was a pagan idol, most often described as a pillar or a tree, that the saxons worshiped as the holiest shrine of their religion. tensions between the franks and saxons escalated after the great migration as they began to compete for more land. in the 700s charlemange, king of the franks, invaded saxony and destroyed the irminsul in retaliation for many farm raids the saxons waged upon the franks. this began a very long and bloody war between the two tribes that ended with frankish victory and the conversion of the saxons. this stone relief is from near where the irminsul was supposed to be, and its theorized by some that the bent shape in the lower right is the irminsul, brought low before the cross in some kind of symbolic humiliation. irmin was the tribal deity of the western germanic tribes, and is sometimes used as a name for odin, so its possible the irminsul was the saxon version of yggdrasil, but too little is known about its cult and origins. nobody is even really sure what it looked like, this is just a theory that the relief shows the irminsul. the relief is very old and worn, and the lower part is much older and seems to depict pagan imagery more than christian stuff.

>>17795372 (OP)
>Does this mean that Tacitus actually mentions Odin by name?

In Heimskringla, Odin is a historical figure. In Bede, he's the ancestor of all of the major Germanic nations going back to recent memory, he probably lived around 100 AD.

>>17795477
>Wilusa is a real city
Oh fucking boy. We've got some work to do with you lad.

>>17795824
>This pagan deity was actually a human man
>my source for this is Christian authors writing well after the christianization of their homelands whose religion instilled them with an active need to delegitimize paganism
compelling

>>17795830
The other route is to use Chinese sources, which indicates that Odin was a Scythic god, which again lines up with a pre-Gothic date prior to 200 AD.

But I'm sure you've done tons of homework on all of this. Go on, enlighten us to your views.

>>17795786
>>17795798
None of that answers my question.

>>17795833
>these two things look similar so they must be related
if this is the standard of evidence then Odin is incontrovertibly the PIE sky-father.
>associated with the heavens
>associated with storms (Reginsmal) and the sky (Hlithskjalf)
>ruler of the cosmos and king of the gods
>Father of the PIE Striker figure (Thor, Heracles)
>sires offspring for narrative purposes

>>17795779
You lost
West 2007, p. 167 n. 8:
>The Germanic: *Tīwaz (Norse: Týr, etc.) also goes back to *deiwós. But he does not seem to be the ancient sky god, and it is preferable to suppose that he once had another name, which came to be supplanted by the title 'God

I.e. they didn't have a god father deity
as I said before, they weren't IEs

>>17796267
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*Dyēus
>Cognates deriving either from the stem *dyeu- ("daylight, bright sky"), the epithet *Dyēus Ph2ter ("Father Sky"), the vṛddhi-derivative *deiwós ("celestial", a "god"), the derivative *diwyós ("divine"), or the back-formation *deynos (a "day") are among the most widely attested in Indo-European languages

>Cypriot Syllabary: ti-wo, interpreted as pertaining to Zeus, and the possible genitive Diwoi

>Palaic: tiuna, "divine, a god"

>Proto-Armenian: *Tiw, the Sky- or Thunder-god

>Armenian: tiw (Տիւ), "day, daytime, morning" and ti, "day" (only in erk-ti "two days"); and possibly also ciacan "rainbow" (according to Martirosyan, from *Ti(w)-a- attached to *can- "sign, omen", thus "the sign of the Sky/Thunder-god")

>Messapic: Zis or Dis, the sky-god,

>Thracian: Zi-, Diu-, and Dias- (in personal names)

>Phrygian: Tiy-,

>Bithynia: Tiyes and the place name Tium (Τιεῖον)

>Other reflexes are variants that have retained both linguistic descendants of the stem *dyeu- ("sky") alongside the original structure "Father God". Some traditions have replaced the epithet *ph2ter with the nursery word papa ("dad, daddy"):

>Luwian: Tātis tiwaz, "Daddy Tiwaz", the Sun-god

>Palaic: Tiyaz papaz, "Papa Tiyaz", the Sun-god

>Scythian: Papaios (Papa Zios), "father Zeus", the god of the Sky

>Cognates stemming from *deywós, a vṛddhi-derivation of *dyēus (the sky-god), are attested in the following traditions:

>Germanic: *tīwaz (pl. *tīwōz), a word for "god" that probably also served as a title (*Tīwaz, "God") that came to be associated with a specific deity whose original name is now lost

>Late Proto-Germanic *Tiwasdag, a calque of Latin dies Martis which gave the word for 'Tuesday' in Old Norse Týs-dagr, Old English Tīwes-dæg, Old Frisian Tīesdi, and Old High German Zies-tag; interpreted as a remnant of the sky and war functions of *Tīwaz by G. Kroonen, although M. L. West views it as unlikely

>>17796402
>Old Norse: Týr, associated with justice; the plural tívar survived as a poetic word for 'the gods', and týr appears in kennings for Odin and Thor, such as in the Odin's names Sigtýr ("victory-god"), Gautatýr ("god of the Geats"), Fimbultýr ("powerful god"), or Hertýr ("army-god")

>Old English: Tīw (or Tīg)

>Old High German: Zio (or *Ziu), a god

>Gothic: *Teiws, a deity reconstructed from the associated rune ᛏ (Tyz)

https://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziu
>In Old High German, the god is not mentioned; we even know the name of the ᛠ-rune: ziu, a variation of the old ᛏ- rune. But the mane name is also known: Ziolf, which means "Zîo-Wolf." Because the name is still contained in the Wuchetag Ziischtig, old . ciestag

>For the ancient Saxons, the god was not known, and the form *Tiu is only the most revealed form. It is possible, however, that the god was worshipped by the Saxons under the names Irmin and Saxnot

>>17795399
>Odin is 100% post bronze age i.e. non_aryan
>It's a shitty shamanic deity probably of GAC origin
Terrible take completely at odds with the known facts.
First of all, Odin has a PIE etymology. There's no sign of a substrate word here. Odin does seem to be a late and uniquely Germanic development, but all the themes are PIE. Odin is just a new name that became popular and was used to syncretize PIE concepts like *Dyḗus ph2tḗr.

Tacitus says outright that Odin is an epithet for Irmin, which means Germanics were using Odin as an alternative name for *h2eryomṓn, the PIE version of Vedic Aryamán.

>>17796402
>>17796415
>As for the figures to be found in the ancient hymns — Tuisto, Mannus, Ingui, Irmin, Istaev (and the others) — while I have already touched on Mannus above, he is named alongside Tuisto as the co-progenitor of the Germanic people. Linguistically speaking, the name Tuisto is obscure. It could be a corruption of the Proto-Germanic Tiwisko (son of Tiw/God) as Grimm suggested, or it could be some concept built upon the fairly evident Proto-Germanic twa- root, from whence we get the Modern English word two (as in the quantity) … such as twin or twist (the latter of which means dispute/conflict in all of the Germanic languages save the English). While I have been very much inclined to see Tiw himself in Tuisto over the years, and so preferred (and in fact formulated) the possible relation of Tuisto to twist (dispute; ie. Mars Thingsus, TyR is not a Peacemaker), it seems today far more likely that the name was either Tiwisko or Twin. Either would suffice, as either one will ultimately point us back in the direction of the other

>And here is why; the notion of co-progenitors is very well established in the creation of new tribal identities among the Germanic peoples and their various Indo-European relatives. It can be seen in Aggo and Ebbo for the migrating Lombards, Roas and Raptos for the migrating Asdingi, most famously in Horsa and Hengist for the migrating Anglo-Saxons, and even perceived in such Vandal co-rulers as Ambri and Assi, and Vinill and Vandill. In the greater Indo-European world we see it in Romulus and Remus for the tribes of Rome and in Castor and Pollux among the Greeks, and most specifically among the Spartans who modeled their dual kingship after the Dioscuri (Sons of God) wherein one king ruled the peace and the other ruled at war

>>17795798
We already had a thread on this. This analysis of Irmin is inadequate. It's on the right track by suggesting Irmin was a god though. Irmin is cognate with Sanskrit Aryamán. An entire paper was posted in the thread:
https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/17648715

>>17796447
>>17796447
>Such a dual kingship among the Germanic peoples, made up of a priest-king and a warrior-king, is observed in the literature as early as Tacitus, and so contemporary with the “Ancient Hymns”, and as late Jordanes, rears it’s head here and there throughout the better known legends and histories of our folk, eg. Hrothgar and Halga, and can even be gleaned in the relationship between the strongly martial Carolingians and the more sacral Merovingians of France. Moreover, the iconography of the “Divine Twins” and the supremacy of the intimately related “cult of the sun” saturates the rock-art and twinned deposits of the Nordic Bronze Age and continued in high style on the Gallehus Horns and the “twin dancers” of Anglo-Saxon art

>While Tacitus names Mannus as the son of Tuisto rather than his brother, this seems more likely some form of mistake in interpretation. Take for a handy example that the Aryan Manu is remembered as the father of mankind, while his fellow Aryan, Yama (Twin), is remembered as the first mortal to have died. One could be left with the impression that Manu is Yama’s father. And yet, in fact, Manu and Yama are remembered as brothers. As such, I tend to favor the theory that Tuisto and Mannus are in fact brothers, a Germaniversal expression of the “Divine Twins” as the co-progenitors of tribes and people

Buri = Tuisto (Son of Tiu/Tiw/Tyr) and
Saxnôt = *Yemo
Borr = Mannus and Irmin = *Manu
Vili = Ingvaeones
Odin = Herminones
Ve = Istvaeones
=
*Trito

However:

>Old English form Seaxnēat is recorded in the genealogies of the kings of Essex (as Seaxnēt, Saxnēat, Saxnat). Originally, Saxnôt and Irmin were the first two ancestors listed, with the first king of Essex, Æscwine, seven generations later. A later version of the genealogy, preserved in the 12th-century Chronicon ex chronicis, makes Seaxnēat a son of Wōden (Odin)

>>17796449
>h4eryós
The idea of an ⟨h4⟩ laryngeal has largely fallen out of favor these days. There's no particular reason to need ⟨h4⟩ in this situation anyway. The word should be reconstructed as *h2éryos from the root *h2ér-. ⟨h2⟩ is likely because of the various cognates which show an ⟨a⟩ vowel, but caution is needed because in various languages, including Greek, ⟨ar⟩ can reflect PIE syllabic *r̥. Sanskrit would have given r̥ya instead of arya if the root was zero-grade though.

There also seems to be another root *h1er- which should not be confused with *h2ér-. It is seen in Irish Éremon, Old Saxon & Old High German Irmin-, Old English eormen-, and Sanskrit अर्यमन् (Aryamán). The vowels here suggest the laryngeal is ⟨h1⟩ instead of ⟨h2⟩.

>>17796498
>bot post
Copying and pasting things from the archive is not an argument. Nobody mentioned h4, and the thread just linked to explains why h1 is not necessary for Irmin. Irmin comes from PIE *h2eryomṓn through regular sound changes. Now hang your head in shame. Or fire up ChatGPT like we expect you to.

>>17796490
>Buri = Tuisto (Son of Tiu/Tiw/Tyr) and Irmin = *Yemo
>Borr = Mannus and Saxnôt = *Manu

Fix'd.

>>17796520
You didn't refute what I said, Aryaman is not the ancestor god in the Vedas, but the protector of mares and stallions like the Ashvins, the ancestor gods are Yama and Manu. Irmin was used for both the Saxon Irmin (Buri/Tuisto, since he is the ancestor god of the Saxons and was probably the first man to die as *Yemo hanged on an Irminsul, the reason it is so worshipped) and the Germanic Irmin (Odin, who has three, not one brother, and is the grandson of the Ancestor God, not him). It makes no sense to connect gods with equal etymologies if they do not have equal attributes.

>>17796571
>You didn't refute what I said,
The thread I just linked to refutes what you just said completely. I do not care if you don't have time to read it. h1 is not necessary. An entire paper was posted in the thread with citations and bibliography in order to make arguments like this. The sound changes necessary for Irmin were addressed explicitly. You don't even have to read the whole paper to understand that part.

Aryamán is the chief of the forefathers in the Bhagavad-gītā. This was also mentioned in the thread.

>>17796608
>Aryamán is the chief of the forefathers in the Bhagavad-gītā

It's not a Vedic writing. This shit has more to do with the Puranas than Vedas. The Mahabharata sees Manu Vaivasvata as the primordial human ancestor. Aryaman is an Aditya who protects pacts, guides the dead, and upholds the order of clans, but is not the progenitor of humanity.

In some passages, the Pitris (ancestors) are said to follow the path of Aryaman, and he leads the dead on their way to the afterlife. This links him more to the role of spiritual guide of the ancestors in the underworld like Yama than to that of generator of humanity like Manu.

>>17796626
Aryaman is a psychopomp like Odin? So why couldn't they be the same Irmin?

>>17796626
>It's not a Vedic writing.
It's not necessary for this feature of Aryamán to be captured explicitly by the Vedas. If the Bhagavad-gītā reflects a wider IE phenomenon, then it's preserving an old tradition. If you disagree you are expecting us to believe it's just a coincidence that the Bhagavad-gītā says these things which I find absurd.

>>17796630
They are not the same twins as *Yemo and *Manu.

>Yama is described as the twin of the goddess Yami, and the son of the god Surya (sun) (in earlier traditions Vivasvat) and Sanjna. He judges the souls of the dead and, depending on their deeds, assigns them to the realm of the Pitris (forefathers), Naraka (hell), or to be reborn on the earth

>The pitris (Sanskrit: पितृ, lit.'forefathers', IAST: Pitṛ) are the spirits of departed ancestors in Hinduism. Following an individual's death, the performance of the antyesti (funeral rites) is regarded to allow the deceased to enter Pitrloka, the abode of one's ancestors. The non-performance of these rituals is believed to result in the fate of wandering the earth as a restless preta

>The amavasya (new moon day), as well as the occasion of Pitri Paksha during the Hindu month of Ashvin is recommended for the veneration of pitrs

>Ashvini is the first star that appears in the evening sky. In Indian astrology, it is the head of Aries, or the first of the 27 Nakshatra. Ashvin also stands for the divine twins, the Ashvins, the gods of vision, Ayurvedic medicine, the glow of sunrise and sunset, and the aversion of misfortune and sickness in Hindu mythology

>Tacitus mentions a divine pair of twins called the Alcis worshipped by the Naharvali, whom he compares to the Roman twin horsemen Castor and Pollux. These twins can be associated with the Indo-European myth of the divine twin horsemen (Dioscuri) attested in various Indo-European cultures. Among later Germanic peoples, twin founding figures such as Hengist and Horsa allude to the motif of the divine twins. The Anglo-Saxon heroes are said to have come by the sea in response to a plea from the beleaguered British king Vortigern. Descendants of Odin, their names mean 'Stallion' and 'Horse', respectively, strengthening the connection

>>17795533
Dubs of truth.

>>17796686
The equivalent of Aryaman in Norse mythology is Hermod.

>Hermodr (Old Norse Hermóðr, meaning warrior, division or war), also known as Hermod, is, in Scandinavian mythology, the son of the Norse God Odin and the Goddess Frigga

>In addition to being the messenger of the gods, he is also the one who carries the souls of the dead to the underworld

>When the gods needed someone's help to ask Hela for Balder's soul, it was Hermod who volunteered. Odin lent him his horse Sleipnir in gratitude. Upon arriving in Niflheim, Hermod asked Hela to let his brother return. Hela imposed the condition that all creatures should cry or beg for his return. All animate and inanimate beings cried and begged for Balder's return, except the giantess Thok, actually Loki in disguise, who did not do so. And so, Balder could not return

>>17796415
>>17796402
Only deyeus pater is the true sky daddy
The rest is just another thing
>papai
Really?
>z
>t
No. Only the d matters, fuck off, Semitic

>>17796415
>>17796402
Nothing to do with sky
Another different deity

>>17796431
>Odin does seem to be a late
As i said, non_IE.
Tyr/Tiwaz was supposed to be the sky god and leader, as the linguistic descendant of Dyēus (Zeus/Jupiter), the Indo-European chief sky god. Following this logic, Tyr should have occupied this position, but instead he was relegated to the role of war god and replaced by Odin, a god who seems to be unique to the Germanic traditions. This change suggests a complex evolution in Norse mythology, as Odin is no older than the Age of Migrations. Anthony literally argues that the fact that the Norse supreme god is Odin, and not a "Dyēus", raises some interesting questions. Although Odin is basically unique, Indra, who is probably of non-IE origin (at least etymologically) also stole the place of the sky god. and in case you don't know, Odin himself was heavily influenced by Christianity in terms of his "paternal" aspect, the oldest sagas show him as more "indifferent" and alluding to chaos, only with sources from Christian monks do we have his "father of all" aspect.

>>17796431
Neither Proto-Indo-European nor Proto-Germanic are directly attested in any source. Everything we think we know about them is a reconstruction developed by comparing their descendents (e.g. Old Norse Óðinn, Old High German Wodan, Old English Wōden, as well as a bunch of non-god-name words across a bunch of Germanic languages).

>>17796854
Correct
The big problem with Brazilians who pretend to be linguistic geniuses is that etymology often does not correlate with mythology. The papaios hapa (Scythian) is literally a minor figure, since the one who holds the "god of heaven" is the wife with snake legs.
Odin and Loki have an unusual association and similarity that suggests they could have originated from the same god or represent heavenly/chthonic doppelgangers

>>17796700
It's rather bizarre how similar Hermóðr would be to a Proto-Germanic *Ermô (stem: *Erman-). This of course could be coincidental but Norse did an unusual but regular sound change, *-nnz > -ðr, resulting in PG *mannz > Old Norse maðr > Icelandic maður
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/mann-

Also PG *harjamann > Old Norse hermaðr > Icelandic hermaður
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/harjamann-

I don't believe it's unthinkable that the initial H- could appear due to contamination. Because the development PG *Ermô > Old Norse Jǫrmun- already requires an irregular development of the suffix in Norse in order to yield -mun-, this increases the chances that the suffix might have more than one reinterpretation.
By analogy of *mannz > Old Norse maðr we might also have something like *Ermô (n-stem) >> *Ermōnaz (a-stem) > *Ermōnz >> Old Norse Hermóðr (with contamination).
A form like Old Norse Jǫrmunr would represent an alternative a-stem that didn't experience the *-nnz > -ðr sound change. Additionally the stem *Erman- may have undergone sporadic gemination by analogy with *mann.

Because of these possibilities, it's worth considering that Hermóðr is the result of contamination and analogy or even a play on words.

>>17796854
>As i said, non_IE.
You have no evidence of this. It's just your personal fantasy which is contradicted by what is actually known.

>>17796854

Experts agree that Tyr's name means "sky" or possibly just "god, There is a lot of evidence that Tyr was the original boss of the pantheon and the terrifying Proto-Germanic berserker-shaman Odin rose up and replaced him.
>Odin himself was heavily influenced by Christianity in terms of his "paternal" aspect, the oldest sagas show him as more "indifferent" and alluding to chaos, only with sources from Christian monks do we have his "father of all" aspect.
Yes, yes, odin is not IE.
a hard "g" or "k" sound has been found where older or related forms of the same name had a "w" sound. but although the etymology is IE, odin does not display many IE characteristics of a father god and in terms of personality, Odin is a seeker of greater knowledge rather than a static patriarch. Odin is a god in motion rather than a representation of the status quo. The correlation between the raven and the Sky Father does not seem to have much basis is cope
Zeus and Jupiter do not bring to mind any specific correlation for either, for example. They are associated with more "majestic" birds such as swans or eagles. Rather than the darker-hued ravens. Which I think is a significant difference. odin is not an Aryan father god. 0%

>>17796854
>Tyr/Tiwaz was supposed to be the sky god and leader
Tyr is greek zeus/celtic lugh, the "sky father" who became king after his father
>replaced by Odin, a god who seems to be unique to the Germanic traditions
Odin is greek kronos and Apollo, celtic Nodens and Finn, indian rudra-shiva. So yes Tyr was replaced by Odin, but Odin/Saturn was originally the leader in IE mythology anyway

>>17796904
You didn't refuted me
Try again
>le etymology
I talking about MYTHOLOGY
>>17796907
>kronos
.......

>>17796863
Read my post
I am a linguistics researcher, and in all my threads, I present sources. Word reconstructions are not mere desulutionary guesses, it is a tiring job, to have knowledge of how words undergo morphological changes, it is not necessary to "be attested in sources" and we have PG runes. Furthermore, I recommend seeing my threads. my table that I made with my wife
Check-out my thread Aryomón, but its more a indianchad thing

disregard this anon above
he is a Brazilian neo-pagan who uses wikicopy and obscure sources. do the Nordics really have a Brazilian as their main ally? KEK he keeps spamming this shitty table every thread

>>17796906
>odin does not display many IE characteristics of a father god and in terms of personality, Odin is a seeker of greater knowledge rather than a static patriarch.
Eber Finn/Amergin/Erimon is the celtic Odin, all of their/his myths are virtually identical. Finn fasts under a tree next to white waters to gain power of prophecy? Odin hangs under a tree with no food or water to gain the power of prophecy, aka RUNES. Which people does Tacitus state uses RUNES to predict the future? GERMANS. Finn drinks from a well to gain wisdom? So does Odin. Here we have an IE god with the powers of prophecy and wisdom, in other words a god perfect to be a seeker of knowledge
>>17796910
I accept your concession

>>17796931
>Eber Finn/Amergin/Erimon is the celtic Odin
????
Odin's personality differs significantly from that expected of a god who would be the Germanic equivalent of Dyēus Pater, the Indo-European chief sky god. Whether you like it or not, and not Brazilian threads that changed that.

Dyēus Pater is often associated with authority, order, and justice, Odin is characterized by his cunning, his quest for knowledge, and his association with war and shamanic magic.

Rather than a paternal and authoritarian leader, Odin is often portrayed as a mysterious traveler and sorcerer, who seeks wisdom and power through unconventional means. And again, Odin was influenced by Christianity.

This difference suggests that the evolution of Norse mythology may have led to a significant reinterpretation of the role and personality of the "chief" god.

>>17796919
>>17796923
>obsessed
These are not my posts. They are unable to post with my tripcode.

This is my post: >>17796896

>>17796933
>Dyēus Pater, the Indo-European chief sky god
You are right he is not the chief sky god he is the father of said god, Saturn who was overthrown. The germans simply put him back on top
>Dyēus Pater is often associated with authority, order, and justice
Yes this is Zeus, Jupiter, Lugh, Mitra, the eagle god who most IE regarded as the ruler.
>Odin is characterized by his cunning, his quest for knowledge, and his association with war and shamanic magic
And this is Odin, the raven god whom only the Germans put back into power.

>>17796431
>Tacitus says outright that Odin is an epithet for Irmin, which means Germanics were using Odin as an alternative name for *h2eryomṓn, the PIE version of Vedic Aryamán.
Oh its you and your strange "etymology thread", isn't?

>>17796947
Just ignore this Brazilian
>>17796700
>>17796626
>>17796498
Brazilian cope

>>17796906
>>Odin himself was heavily influenced by Christianity in terms of his "paternal" aspect, the oldest sagas show him as more "indifferent" and alluding to chaos, only with sources from Christian monks do we have his "father of all" aspect.
I don't know where you got this quote from but it's beyond retarded.
Saga Odin is always causing trouble and killing people in anticipation of Ragnarok, and sometimes he just kills people for slighting him, like King Heithrek the Wise.
It's Odin of the genuine, pagan poetry that's more paternalistic and caring. Vegtamskvitha features him pleading with undead witches to save his beloved son.

>>17796854
Stop relying purely on linguistics to create an elaborate theory.
Tyr is irrelevant even in our oldest Norse sources and he isn't depicted in ancient artwork, either.
Tyr isn't even a war god, either. Odin is the God of Battle and the one that starts wars and oversees combat.
Tyr is just a character in myths as an honorable but mostly unimportant member of the divine family. Assuming more just because of his name is an exercise in invention.

>>17796896
>contamination
If you've never heard of this term, what I mean is there was a word PG *Harjamōdaz that became Old Norse Hermóðr > Icelandic Hermóður, and this would be so similar to a form *Ermōnz >> *Ermōðr that speakers may mistakenly adopt the inital H- thinking it's the "right way" (or as I said earlier, it's a play on words). This scenario could play out if people have never heard of this obscure god before or if they've never heard it pronounced in this strange way with the -ðr ending, so they hypercorrect it to a word they do know, Hermóðr.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/Harjam%C5%8Ddaz

>>17796700
Hermod is irrelevant and only exists in a few lines in the middle of the Prose Edda.
He is not a substantial character that can be greatly extrapolated on or given a significant role in the spiritual physics of the Norse world.

>>17796994
>only exists in a few lines
Like Aryaman in the Vedas.

>>17796906
Odin having duality is not that unique.
Zeus is sometimes the embodiment of arete that saves the world from monsters and keeps order and wisely governs the world.
And sometimes he's capricious, rapacious, and conniving. The one that sets off conflicts in order to kill men or unreasonably punishes women for refusing his advances or one that sends natural disasters.
This duality is not all that unique to Odin, but is consistent across ancient literature.

>>17795464
le this
Boggles my mind how we literally see differences between similar cultures before our eyes in the present but people still can't grasp the same applying to the past.
If Aussies and Brits are already different after a mere 100 years apart, then fucking IE Pantheons will obviously diverge after 1000+ years

>>17795464
>>17797006
https://files.catbox.moe/j9tp8t.pdf
Interesting article about this question.

>>17796645
He BTFO'd you

>>17797012
Nord sisters??

>>17796976
I don’t care if this offends your dead religion, but it is a fact that much of what we know about the sagas was influenced by Christianity. Norse beliefs were often reinterpreted or merged with Christian narratives. This is especially evident in the 13th century and later, when Odin’s characteristics may have been adapted to resonate with a Christian audience. The image of Odin hanging from the tree Yggdrasil and wounded by a spear is often compared to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. The big problem is that almost all of the written evidence about Odin or other Old Norse gods was written by Christian monks, which inherently distorts everything we know about Odin. Even the Edda, which is the main source of knowledge about Old Norse religion, was written by a Christian monk.
Due to the ***lack**** of contemporary texts describing the perception and worship of Odin prior to the arrival of Christianity in Scandinavia, it is challenging to determine how his image evolved or was altered by Christian influence. The absence of pre-Christian primary sources limits our understanding of Old Norse religion and the figure of Odin in this context.
B
T
F
O

>>17797012
Article is trash virtually every norse god has obvious IE parallels and their stories are scarily identical
>Tyr
Lugh, Mitra, Zeus, Jupiter
>Thor
Indra, Taranis, Hercules, Fergus
>Odin
Rudra-shiva-agni-Varuna, Poseidon-Cronos-Apollo, Finn-Eremon-Emergin, Nodens
>Baldr
Aryaman, aspects of Lugh
I could go on all day
>>17797006
That's because those cultures don't have a dedicated caste of storytellers who undergo years of learning rhythmic and repetitive oral songs. Oral stories are infinitely more long lasting than the written word as they can be carried anywhere. Druids sometimes spent 2 decades learning their craft.

>>17797012
There's more
They aren't Aryans even in their disgusting language KEK
https://www.sgr.fi/sust/sust266/sust266_kroonen.pdf

>>17797006
PIE studies are COPE
Fanficoids

>>17797037
>Norse beliefs were often reinterpreted or merged with Christian narratives
Blatant lie
>The image of Odin hanging from the tree Yggdrasil and wounded by a spear is often compared to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ
Tacitus mentions germans hanging people in ritualistic practises, siberian shamans suspended people in trees in riutalistic practises, you are reaching

>>17797002
>>17796994
Which means? The Aryomón stuff is more irrelevant than we like to think. Seethe.
>>17797037
There is some rather sensual consensus among scholars as to the original "demonic" nature of cuckdin, associated with his close connection with the dead and with human sacrifice, as well as with the practice of various forms of magic. For this reason, Dumézil, in "Gods of the Ancient Northmen" (1973), proposed a parallel between Odin and the Indian god Varuna.

>>17797065
>HAIL WOOTAN
>its fake bacause... yeah u r wrong
Kek Christiancucks and cringepagans with their roast delusions
I accept, and i love your sweet concession
>Siberian
Yeah, odin could came from some useless SHG crap

>>17797065
>>17797037
>bla bla bla fighting for mythology like otakus
Regardless of the interpretation, it is safe to say that the myth of Odin's self-sacrifice was never used to equate the god with a Christ-like figure. Rather, Norse paganism is 2/3 shamanic garbage, which is why the Germanic people were so matriarchal.

>>17795439
Finally, I would like to address the attribute of 'Allfather' associated with Odin. While this attribute alone may not suffice to equate him with the Christian God, it could have played a role, alongside other features of the Norse god and his cult, in facilitating the conversion to Christianity by the rulers of Nordic countries. This idea is brought forward by Terry Gunnell in From One High One to Another: The Acceptance of Óðinn as Preparation for God.

>>17797072
No you're wrong because nearly every aspect of Odin hanging from the tree is demonstrated either in other myths like the celtic god Finn fasting under a tree in to gain the power of prophecy aka RUNES or in shamanistic practices like hanging someone from a central world tree or germans sacrificing people via hanging before christianity was barely a thing. Faggot

>>17797077
Again, retard, nearly all of Odin's tales can be found in his celtic counterpart Finn, and even in apollo. You lost he is IE

>>17796645
>>17796896
>Aryaman
What are you guys talking about?
hermaðr doesn't resemble Aryaman to me
Hermod and Aryaman only exists in a few lines in the Edda and Rigveda

>>17796986
>This scenario could play out if people have never heard of this obscure god before
Hahaha the larp as le sons of Aryaman it's dead, isn't? They it was so irrelevant that they didn't know who this shit was and there are no other cognates. this is different for the Indo-Iranians, especially the Indo-Aryan branch stop trying to relate how the Iranians saw their deities with the Indo-Europeans of the West, damn it. Aryaman is so relevant in the West, that besides the Germanics, we have nothing else. no Greeks, Romans and etc.
I think I saw something about Ariomanus Gauls, but I'm sure the author was skeptical. Aryaman was for the Europeans what religion is today for most of us KEK

>>17797127
the only gay who masturbates with this shit is the Brazilian above and his low quality charts>>17796919

>>17797127
Based ayran is only for these mutts who mixed with bmac creatures
If some guy with 40% iran_J used the term Aryan in iron age, why would Me, a polish with 52% steppe-related larp as "Aryan"? Only mutts should use it.

>>17797114
>hermaðr doesn't resemble Aryaman to me
It is weird and unexpected if you aren't familiar with the sound changes from PIE to Proto-Germanic to Old Norse, but I'll give a summary:
PIE */h2eri̯o-mṓn/ *[h2ari̯omṓn] (nom.sg) > Late PIE */h2eri̯o-mṓ/
> Proto-Indo-Iranian *Hari̯ā-mā́ > Sanskrit Aryamā́ (nom.sg)

Late PIE *h2eri̯o-mṓ > Pre-Proto-Germanic *ari̯o-mô > *ari̯a-mô > (umlaut + syncope)Proto-Germanic*er-mô

Once we have the form PGmc *er-mô, you need to know a little about how the word inflects. The inflectional stem should be cited as *er-man- because there would be *er-mô (nominative singular) ~ *er-manų (accusative singular) ~ *er-miniz (genitive singular), so while the final -n is missing in the nominative singular, it can reappear because it's part of the word's inflectional stem. In IE languages it was historically common to add the equivalent of PIE *-os at the end of a word to make a new word. For Germanic we have PIE *-os > PGmc *-az. If we did this to *er-mô, we would get *er-mōn-az. Remember *er-manų from a moment ago? This *a vowel makes the suffix similar to PGmc *mann- "man", commonly used as a suffix in Germanic languages.

PGmc *mann- received the *-az suffix just like I was talking about, and the development *mannaz > *mannz > Old Norse maðr occurred. Likewise *ermōnaz would yield *ermōnz, and there are two possibilities:
• *ermōnz was actually geminated at some point due to similarity to *mann-, so it was actually *ermōnnz. Then *ermōnnz > Old/Proto-Norse *ermōðr would be a regular sound change for this step.
• *ermōnz was similar enough to *mannz that it simply became Old/Proto-Norse *ermōðr by analogy with *mannz

The final step is just the addition of the initial H-, and this can be explained as contamination with the very similar word hermóðr or a play on words.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/Harjam%C5%8Ddaz

>>17797247
But what motivates this theory? This poster just said Hermóðr was the equivalent of Aryamán in Norse mythology: >>17796700
If this is true, is it just a coincidence that we can come up with an account for how Hermóðr and Aryamán are related etymologically?

>>17797258
>>17797247
Looks like cope
>Hermóðr was the equivalent of Aryamán in Norse
There's no evidence for such claims
Your Brazilian thread sucks, i its Nice how you basically disregard your old thread.

>>17797247
Also you may want to review these pages:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/mann-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ma%C3%B0r#Old_Norse

>>17797114
>hermaðr doesn't resemble Aryaman
And you're correct, dont be fooled by "'reconstructions"'. This supposed deity was so useless and irrelevant, if indeed it was a cognate of the Indian, that it was only mentioned in a 5-line verse, without irony.
>>17797295
Yes

>>17797247
One final note. You may be wondering about Old Norse jǫrmun. Assuming there were two Proto-Germanic words in circulation, *er-mô and *er-mōn-az, jǫrmun would ultimately come from *er-mô as has been discussed before.

>>17797049
>>tyr
>zeus/jupiter
Name a single story about Tyr that is similar to one about either.
>>thor
>indra/hercules
Name a single story about Thor that is similar to one about either without it being just generic monster slaying.
>odin
>>misc.
Again, name stories that are actually similar between these gods.

These parallels go no deeper than linguistics and of purely skin-deep vibes, rather than saying anything about their actual religious text.
Where is Poseidon's story about hanging on the world tree for knowledge? Where is Hercules's story about dressing as a woman for a gaff? Where's Tyr's stories about doing anything?

>>17797037
Odin hanging from the Tree has a lot in common with the story of Dionysius in the Dionysian Mysteries where he was killed and mutilated by the Titans, but was revived from the ashes and gained great knowledge about life and death and magic.
Odin in general has a lot in common with Dionysus as the god of alcohol, art, fugue states, hidden knowledge, madness, rage, magic, death and rebirth. There's also potentially a link between the Valkyries and Dionysus having tons of young woman followers.

There is pretty clearly a shared Indo-European character there, the only unknown part is how Odin ended up on top in the North, or how Dionysus ended up as a mid-level deity in mainstream Greek worship in the South.

>>17797376
Thor/Indra/Fergus/Kay/Achilles:
>Thor and Indra wield a special weapon forged for themselves which they use to kill the great serpent/dragon.
>Thor attempts to strike Utgard Loki three times and is mocked, whilst Fergus strikes conchobar's shield three times and is mocked
>Thor and Fergus both land blows that are do not budge conchobar/Utgard Loki
>Fergus cuts the tops off nearby mountains like to redirect his fury whilst Thor cuts holes in the mountains when his hammer is redirected
>When Thor attempts to strike Utgard Loki a mountain is moved to block his strike. When Indra attempts to strike Krishna's sacred cow herds Krishna moves a mountain to block his blow.
>Both Fergus and Indra lament having to fight their kinsmen
>Both Thor and Indra described as Thunderer/Lord of Thunder
>Sir Kay drinks enough for four men, Thor drinks part of a sea through a drinking horn and Indra drinks oceans before going into battle
>Fergus and Thor fight a monster twice, first failing to kill then the second time kill it before falling down dead
>Fergus's sword is called hard lightning, Indra's thunderbolt weapon is called hard
>Fergus's scrotum was large as a sack of flour and Indra is given the epithet "With the thousand testicles"
This isn't even all the similarities by the way I just grew tired.This is really tiresome for me to list the myth similarites so I'm going to take my time and roast you slowly

>>17797395
>someone else that realizes that Odin is Dionysus
I acknowledge and applaud your wisdom.
>the only unknown part is how Odin ended up on top in the North
I think they merged their Sky Father with their Dionysian God. You can imagine how something similar could have happened with Zeus if Orphism had become mainstream.

>>17797376
Odin/Apollo/Finn/Fintan/Fionn/Gwyn/Amergin/Nodens/Rudra-Shiva-Agni
>Finn fasts under a tree next to a lake which turns things white to gain the power of prophecy. Odin hanged from a tree above the well of Urd which turns things white to gain the powers of the runes whilst fasting. Tacitus mentions the germans used runes to tell the future. Hence the runes and prophesy are synonymous
>Odin and Fintan both turn into fish, Fintan eats nine hazelnuts that fall from nine trees into a well of wisom to gain knowledge similiar to Odin hanging from the tree for nine nights
>Both Odin and Finn drink from a well to gain wisdom
>Both Odin and Finn divide the earth and sky with their brothers
>Cronos and Odin split the Earth and Sky
>Odin and Fin steal a liquid from a giant by seducing his daughter
>Odin and Fionn lead warbands, Gwyn and Odin lead the Wild Hunt
>Odin and Amergin father the avengers of their dead sons
>Odin is pierced by a spear as Apollo is pierced by Cupids arrow, who then pursues a pale women vanishes/is turned into a tree. Apollo then receives prophetic whispers from the tree like how Odin recieves the runes of prophecy. Fionn also sees a pale girl who vanishes and a tree appears which gives prophetic knowledge to those who fast.
>Apollo and Odin are both healers and dealers of death.
>Rudra sacrifices himself to a higher form of himself to gain victory in battle, he also leads a warband
>Odin's ravens report back to him news as Apollo's raven reports back to him the lovemaking of Ischys and Coronis
Again this is only the tippy tip of the iceberg, but I have better things to do then smacking mentally freaks on the internet

>>17797535
Zeus wields a forged lightning bolt to slay monsters, including a partial serpent.
Odin has a forged spear he'll use to fight monsters.
Apollo has a special bow he uses to slay monsters, including a great serpent.
Marduk is given divine weaponry to slay monsters.
Gods having divine weaponry is extremely common. There is nothing to take from that without a stronger connection.

Conchobar and Uthgard Loki have nothing in common. So trivialities about actions happening in trios mean nothing. Especially when even today, we write or make games based on the 'rule of threes'. Where actions done in triplicate have the best min-maxed impact on the viewer.
You're relying on digging for random details in myths over anything more narratively substantial. Lamenting about fighting one's family is so unspecific that a dozen different stories could be brought up with that detail in it.
As another example, cutting down or breaking natural features is something very common in world mythology. Plenty of stories work on the basis of, "a god did this and that is why this natural feature exists". Athena used magic to spawn an olive tree in Athens and turn it into the largest Greek city, now every story dealing with a god(dess) growing vegetation is related to her doing that?

This is what I expected but knew would disappoint me.
Instead of actually wholistically creating a comparison between the narratives that exist about these Gods that demonstrate this connection, you're relying on rummaging through a dozen unrelated myths and plucking out minor details from them that happen to coincide.
Where are the shared actual substantial narratives and stories that you can point to and say, "this plot and this plot are obviously sourced from the same primal theology". Not, "this detail and this other detail vaguely resemble one another when I phrase a story in a misleading manner".

>>17797568
There is something actually more substantial here.
The Irish myths and sagas having a stronger linkage to the Norse myths and sagas is a true point.
But I disagree entirely with your way of reasoning about them.

Finn has much more in common with your conventional saga heroes than any Norse deity.
Him eating a magical salmon to gain wisdom links well to stories about eating dragon hearts for the same. With the shift being that Finn's mentor loved him, while Sigurd's hated him. An interesting difference to think about. Sigurd also learns his fate.
This is a useful line of reasoning to pursue. Connecting saga heroes to saga heroes based on larger shared themes and substantial tropes.
Not this crass digging of random barely associated details and grabbing anything out of context that you can find that could be construed as similar.

Gods acting through animal agents is so common as to be meaningless without specificity. Agni and Thor both have chariots drawn by goats, therefore they're the same God. Regardless of them having nothing else in common.
Apollo and Odin share very few actual traits and could even be claimed to be lie in contradiction to one another philosophically. This makes a substantial connection unlikely.
Kronos is an extremely vague character without a lot of personality and massive differences like him eating his children while Odin plans to die to try and protect his own, is a huge shift that makes equating the two impossible. If there was any link it is irrelevant in what material we have from the derived belief systems.

The issue is that you write like you think its the 1800s and link random details with red thread on a cork board like a detective in a pulp film without taking into account greater context and narrative meaning like it is at all viable.
When someone asks for shared stories, they're not asking for what miscellaneous details you can sift through larger works for. They're asking for shared narratives and meanings.

>>17797636
>Conchobar and Uthgard Loki have nothing in common.
I just gave you an instance of them having something in common. But I could make a whole other post about the similarities between those two if you want, even though we're talking about the Thunderer type god at the moment
>Especially when even today, we write or make games based on the 'rule of threes'.
Those are both very specific things in in threes, namely three strikes on an entity which fail to do any damage. Combined with all the other identical elements in their stories it forms a picture
>As another example, cutting down or breaking natural features is something very common in world mythology.
Again very specific examples of cutting or breaking
>Instead of actually wholistically creating a comparison between the narratives that exist about these Gods that demonstrate this connection, you're relying on rummaging through a dozen unrelated myths and plucking out minor details from them that happen to coincide. Where are the shared actual substantial narratives and stories that you can point to and say, "this plot and this plot are obviously sourced from the same primal theology".
As I said this is the tip of the iceberg, I am merely providing very specific examples that one part of a larger picture. If you want to know more there is the book and youtube channel named Taliesin's Map which goes over all of this in greater detail.

>>17797641
>Agni and Thor both have chariots drawn by goats, therefore they're the same God.
This is something I agree with you on, but such examples are quite rare, it is a rare legitimate case of a god's attributes being transferred to another
>Apollo and Odin share very few actual traits and could even be claimed to be lie in contradiction to one another philosophically.
This is because gods have many different minor gods or aspects contained within them, Apollo is specifically the "Lord of Incantations" archetype. The Indo Europeans liked to give different names to these "aspects" of a god and presented them as different people or lower and higher stages of said god. The exact same god can have completely different personality types that even fight each other! Odin is rare in the sense that his mythos was simplified and dumbed down by giving most of his different aspects the same name, Odin. If it sounds confusing that's because it was probably designed that way, like I said druids could spend 20 years learning this stuff. If you want to know more check out Taliesin's Map he is the expert on the subject.

>>17797247
>there are two possibilities:
third possibility:
• The sound change is governed by syllable weight. Gemination isn't necessary. *mannz and *ermōnz have the same weight in their final syllables.

So basically

Dyēus Pater = Aryan
Odin = also Aryan

Interesting...

It's a shame that discussion of these sorts of topics always gets plagued by etymological and genetic dick-measuring from schizophrenics trying to claim sole descent from a people that lived in the late copper age.

>>17798223
If you want any sort of deep insight into Indo-European mythology and culture, linguistics is absolutely necessary. If you don't believe in historical linguistics, you are the historian version of a flat earther. If you believe in it but refuse to make use of the techniques, you are like a Luddite. Because there is so little left of many of these mythologies, the only way to make headway on reconstructing them is to adopt the attitude of a detective and use every tool at your disposal.

>>17798010
You lost
>>17797127

>>17797712
You didn't demonstrate that these personalities have anything in common.
You demonstrated that both of them had 3 things happen to them in different ways in different circumstances by different people. Things that are different from one another. Particularly because Uthgard Loki follows his 'embarrassing' of Thor with jerking the guy off for nearly killing him with each swing if not for UL's magic cowardice.

These aren't specific examples is the actual problem.
These are vagaries plucked out of context and told in a very manipulative manner in order to convince someone that didn't know the stories that they were alike.

Instead of giving me this vagueposting about 'the tip of the iceberg', you have to actually dig deep and demonstrate a real connection that isn't just a motley list of half-similar details from random places.
A good example of this type of comparative mythology that I'd point to as an example, is people reading the Enuma Elish and then pointing out how there are massive narrative connections to other Semitic and Eastern Mediterranean stories in some of its conflicts and ideas that make it likely there was direct influence or borrowing.
Which is of a much larger scope than henpecking minutia.
>>17797727
It is true that a single god can be heavily internally contradictory in the IE world.
Odin is the best example of this, as both a wise king and bestower of knowledge, and also an untrustworthy bastard that wants to get men killed for his own fear of death. But that doesn't mean that you can assume that you can combine two different gods based on an assumption of even greater duality in the past. Humans aren't that clever or coherent in their mythologizing.

I will watch some Talesin's Map videos.
But my main critique is a philosophical one, where I see you misdirecting your enthusiasm and energy away from more constructive types of comparative mythology towards combing the desert for individual grains of sand that look similar.

>>17795905
>>these two things look similar so they must be related
>if this is the standard of evidence

I don't see why you would even question this. If it happens once, it's a coincidence. When detail after detail, character after character lines up- it's a pattern. In today's market it would be grounds for a plagiarism lawsuit.

>>17798516
At some point all IE deities became obscure because of time and Christianity, but when these sound changes were occuring, there's no reason to believe the god itself was obscure. Rather, the results of the sound changes obviously make the connections between the different words obscure to anyone but a linguist.

There are three different Norse words:
• Jǫrmun
• Jǫrmunr
• *Ermōðr (>> Hermóðr)

Jǫrmun(r) is the most commonly attested, so the expectation is that most people would know who Jǫrmun(r) is, but if you said *Ermōðr, they might think, "Did you mean, Hermōðr?" However, this scenario is not necessary. Hermōðr could be a play on words. Hermōðr is attested in the Prose Edda after all. It could be poetic. On the other hand I do not know the textual history behind Hermóðr. It would be funny if the initial H- was introduced by a scribe who thought it was a spelling mistake without the H-.

>all these deleted posts
If you're gonna go nuclear against off-topic, it's only fair to delete >>17796919 >>17796923 since this is the troll post bait that derailed the thread and made it necessary to post with a tripcode. We aren't showing favoritism again are we?

>>17798696
I thought about this some more. Because of the complications involved with vowel breaking and umlaut in Germanic languages I've decided to discard this idea. Irmin/*Erman and Hermóðr are not etymologically related.

All etymologies need at least 24-48 hours of review to say the least. I don't trust myself to never overlook something.