Even though Jesus didn't establish full world peace or restore the nation of Israel, because of him the entire world was successfully brought to the worship of the God of Israel. Isn't that major evidence in favor of him actually being the Messiah? I mean even in mainstream Orthodox Judaism this is a pretty major thing the Messiah is supposed to do, and Jesus actually did it.

Like no other Messianic claimant in history has even gotten close to being as successful as Jesus of Nazareth. Nobody other than Jewish people would know anything about the God of Abraham if it wasn't for Jesus. There would be no Christianity. There would be no Islam.

Why isn't this fact taken seriously by Jews? Isn't it worth at least considering that maybe Christians are right, that the Messianic mission is twofold? First as a suffering servant to gather the nations to the God of Israel, and then eventually from this return to judge the world and establish world peace? No one expected Jesus and his first followers to be as successful as they were. It looked like they were defeated and there was no way Jesus could be the Messiah. And it took some time indeed, but lo and behold, it happened, the nations converted, and look where we are now. Kinda crazy when you put it into perspective.

no, there was no concept of a singular titular messiah until rome decided to get handsy. it was always framed as a "state of mind" or an archetype, even if people used references to institutional structures for exegesis' sake.

>>17797436 (OP)
>There would be no Islam.
Doubt it. Mohammad would have just ripped off another popular religious figure for his fanfic

>>17797436 (OP)
>didn't establish full world peace or restore the nation of Israel
liar. the problem with today is that "christians" no longer define the body of Christ, Israel, as white people.

>>17797860
You need help.

>>17797436 (OP)
But the nations don't worship the God of Israel, they worship him.

>>17797436 (OP)
The Trinity is not the God of Israel. Yahweh (1 person) is.

Jesus the false messiah man-god brought half the world to 30,000 different denominations of Paganism.

>>17798225
the church only broke when it stopped defining the body of Christ, Israel, as white people.

>>17797436 (OP)
How did a 1st Century Palestinian Jew and a bunch of unlearned fishermen convert the entire world?

>Like no other Messianic claimant in history has even gotten close to being as successful as Jesus of Nazareth.
WRONG
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_bar_Kokhba

>>17798225
The trinity is one person if by person you mean the common sensical concept of one will, intellect, consciousness and so on. The trinity is about relational identities within GODs infinite mind.

>>17797856
This
Arabia was full of jewish tribes

>>17797436 (OP)
Jesus didn't fulfil any of the Messiah claims in judaism. He's not related to king David as he according to christian mythology was created through virgin birth

>>17798325
>failed revolutionary leader who was killed and his army was killed and Judea was destroyed and his sect died on the spot
Wow, so successful, so many gentiles brought to Zion

>>17798378
Jesus was executed by the romans, on the behest of the kikes, and did diddly squat in terms of military conquest

>>17798385
The body of Christ rose from the dust of the earth to take over the earth. as explained here >>17797860

>>17798390
Were was it predicted in the old testament?

Moreover:
Jeremiah
23 “Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares the Lord. 2 Therefore this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: “Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done,” declares the Lord. 3 “I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. 4 I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing,” declares the Lord.

5 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will raise up for David[a] a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The Lord Our Righteous Savior.

7 “So then, the days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when people will no longer say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,’ 8 but they will say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the descendants of Israel up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.’ Then they will live in their own land.”

Jesus wasn't a king and didn't reign

>>17798395
>Jesus wasn't a king and didn't reign
But he literally was... Where do you think the meme "Christ is King" is all about? Not only is he legally entitled to the Davidic throne according to the genealogy of Matthew, but he is actually overqualified for OT standards since his regality isn't even limited to the nation alone but to literally the entire world-order. Billions of people worldwide consider him King of the universe.

>>17798689
Do you agree that the real person of Jesus didn't directly reign over any historically verifiable kingdom?

>>17798377
Separate argument - do Jews believe Jesus was born of a virgin?

>>17798689
>literally

>>17798753
No

>>17797436 (OP)
The part were god kills himself to forgive himself which is idiotic
jews can't consider you to worship the god of israel if you at the same time say things about that god and describe that god in ways that doesn't fit
Just like christians will point out that muslims does not worship the same god because the muslim description of allah is different and have different opinions etc
Its like saying i believe in santa claus but in my version santa claus comes and fucks your mom in exchange for gifts. Would that still be santa claus?
I believe in the tooth fairy. but actually in my version the tooth fairy takes you tooth and sticks it up your ass. is that still the tooth fairy?
I believe in Harry potter
But in my version harry potter is a schizo fag who shoots up a school
idk why rowlings doesn't accept that??

>>17798756
Then do you know why don't they acknowledge the Davidic succession?

>>17797436 (OP)
>Even though Jesus didn't establish full world peace or restore the nation of Israel, because of him the entire world was successfully brought to the worship of the God of Israel. Isn't that major evidence in favor of him actually being the Messiah? I mean even in mainstream Orthodox Judaism this is a pretty major thing the Messiah is supposed to do, and Jesus actually did it.
I hate when you retards pull the Bandwagon Argument, because it plays out exactly the same everytime.

>Hurr Christianity big, so it must be true.
Okay, well the majority of planet even today is not Christian. You’re like 25% of the planet.
>That doesn’t matter.
Islam is even set to outsize Christianity in like a decade
>Well, uhm
Hinduism is also huge, very old, and still one of the largest religions today
>Narrow is the path to heaven

Christianity (if you combine Catholics, Prots, and everyone else into one category) is just the largest religions today, and not even by that much. What exactly is so incredible about Christianity from a numbers perspective that it has to be divine? It took literal centuries to even become a semi-serious religion on any actual scale.

>>17797856
Mohammad was very likely an actual schizophrenic (even when accounting for how much is written of him that’s literal made-up bullshit). Whatever religions he had seen or heard would have presented themselves in his schizo dreams, and his new religion would have been founded on that.

Islam is not a religion that’s known for it’s incredibly convincing logic. It was spread by violence. Consistent theology was more of an afterthought.

>>17798689
>Not only is he legally entitled to the Davidic throne according to the genealogy of Matthew
Despite the fact that Jesus’s “dad” Joseph has no blood relation to him, and both genealogies run through Joseph (and even different sons of David). It’s literally just a retcon to say “see, he totally technically checked that box.”

Same thing with the convoluted birth stories that explain while Yeshua of NAZARETH is actually totally from Bethlehem technically (since this is another box he has to check). The Bethlehem story also only appears in two Gospels, and only one of them has the incredibly confusing census story that requires traveling to your hometown.

>>17798744
But he does reign over a historical kingdom, the Kingdom of God, the Church.

>I hate when you retards pull the Bandwagon Argument, because it plays out exactly the same everytime.
One of the things the Messiah is supossed to do is bring the gentile nations to the God of Israel. Jesus does this. It's not a bandwagon argument, it's a appealing to the fact that Jesus does fulfill one of the major Messianic prophecies that mainstream Judaism today still acknowledges.

>Okay, well the majority of planet even today is not Christian. You’re like 25% of the planet.
It's 33%. That's a very large portion of the world population. Add Islam on top and now you have more than half of humanity. Sure Islam is a false religion, but one of the few goods that comes from it is monotheism, the monotheism of the God of Abraham, and like Christianity it too acknowledges Jesus as the Messiah. Islam was historically seen as a Christian heresy by Europeans.

>Hinduism is also huge, very old, and still one of the largest religions today
Maybe because Hinduism is concentrated in a very specific places where over a billion people live? Christianity is global.

>What exactly is so incredible about Christianity from a numbers perspective that it has to be divine?
Again when Christians appeal to numbers, it's not because of the Bandwagon fallacy. This is usually what Muslims do. They bandwagon their religion. Christians argue that the size of their faith and the widespread belief in Jesus even outside of the religion is a fulfillment of Messianic prophecy. You're right, it did take centuies. That makes it more amazing. Who would have ever thought the Empire that killed Jesus would basically be conquered by his religion in just a few centuries? Through defeat, he paradoxically becomes victorious. This is the surprise of Christianity, which should have never succeeded like it did.

>>17798950
Meant this also for >>17798775

>>17798324
You can pull anything imaginable under
the sun when the right circumstances appear. It could have been any other eastern religion, hell it could have been judaism of all religions and you'll lack a foreskin right now, but it was christianity, especially the variant created by Paul, that was chosen

>>17798950
>But he does reign
He died 2000 years ago (presumably?)
>One of the things the Messiah is supossed to do is bring the gentile nations to the God of Israel. Jesus does this
There are still a lot of countries who aren't christian
>Add Islam on top and now you have more than half of humanity
Islam isn't christianity, why do you bring them up out of nowhere
>Christianity is global.
Not an argument.
>Through defeat, he paradoxically becomes victorious.
For all the shit he rightfully gets for being an unlikeable narcissistic prick, Paul and his version of christianity was the one that prevailed in the end. Jesus pretty much died for a tormenter of his followers to usurp his place, metaphorically speaking

>>17798989
Also, Jesus was also supposed to fulfill the messianic promise the very moment he appeared. The fact that he didn't shows that he wasn't the messiah

>>17798950
>One of the things the Messiah is supossed to do is bring the gentile nations to the God of Israel.
And that didn’t happen. The average goy is not a Christian unless you’re only counting white people
>Inb4 only white people count

>Jesus does this.
He doesn’t.
>It's not a bandwagon argument,
It is.
>it's a appealing to the fact that Jesus does fulfill one of the major Messianic prophecies that mainstream Judaism today still acknowledges.
They don’t acknowledge it.

>It's 33%.
Arguably and still not majority
>That's a very large portion of the world population.
So are Islam and Hinduism. You’re also adding all Christians together, but I’d imagine you consider all prots, Mormons, and Jehovah’s Witnesses non-Christians
>Add Islam on top and now you have more than half of humanity.
Adding Christianity and Islam together just so you can claim majority might be the biggest cope on this board yet.
>Sure Islam is a false religion, but one of the few goods that comes from it is monotheism,
There’s lots of monotheistic religions, like Zoroastrianism
>the monotheism of the God of Abraham,
Don’t you fags usually claim Muslims secretly worship a moon god or some shit
>and like Christianity it too acknowledges Jesus as the Messiah.
Uh, I know they consider Jesus a prophet, but do they accept the Messiah claim? I genuinely don’t know.

>Maybe because Hinduism is concentrated in a very specific places where over a billion people live?
And Christianity is very concentrated over the US, Canada, Australia, and Europe (aka the Anglosphere)

>You're right, it did take centuies. That makes it more amazing.
It really doesn’t.
>Who would have ever thought the Empire that killed Jesus would basically be conquered by his religion in just a few centuries?
You mean the religion was eventually strongest in the nation where the religion originated? Crazy.

>>17798385
He conquers the earth by the preaching of the gospel

>>17798395
>Jesus wasn't a king and didn't reign
Wrong

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."
Matthew 28:18

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1 Corinthians 15:25

>>17797436 (OP)
No. Christianity is a form of idolatry and also polytheism. Plus it's not the entire world, just a narrow majority of the population (53% or something like that counting Islam).
>Jesus actually did it.
He didn't. The disciples of the disciples (etc) of his alleged disciples did through the course of two thousand years of much change.
>Nobody other than Jewish people would know anything about the God of Abraham if it wasn't for Jesus.
Wrong, Judaism was a proselytizing religion back then. Without Christianity Judaism would have been far more widespread than it actually was. At least in my interpretation.

>Why isn't this fact taken seriously by Jews?
G-d is not three things. G-d did not nullify the law for lols. etc.
> Isn't it worth at least considering that maybe Christians are right, that the Messianic mission is twofold?
No. It's blatant re-interpretation of scripture to fit an ad-hoc frame. It makes no sense that he would show up as a wandering mystic to fulfill no prophecies and then show up later in an indeterminate amount of time to actually fulfill the prophecy.
>Kinda crazy when you put it into perspective.
Samael is patient and has a dark sense of humour.

>>17797436 (OP)
Did you know there were some early Christian sects who said that YHWH was an evil being Jesus came to save the world from?

ITT: Jews and Atheists triggered.

>>17798989
>He died 2000 years ago (presumably?)
He resurrected and now reigns supreme at the right hand of the Father.

>There are still a lot of countries who aren't christian
And the gospel continues to spread. It's called realized eschatology.

>Islam isn't christianity, why do you bring them up out of nowhere
No but they are a major Abrahamic religion that also believes Jesus is the Messiah.

>Not an argument.
Isaiah 11:10

>>17799019
>And that didn’t happen. The average goy is not a Christian unless you’re only counting white people
Almost every person on earth knows who Jesus of Nazareth was and more than half of humanity believes he is the Messiah.

>He doesn’t.
He does.

>It is
Nope see >>17799088

>They don’t acknowledge it.
Jews have historically believed the Messiah will be a catalyst to brings the gentiles to knowledge of the God of Israel. Jesus did this successfully.

>Arguably and still not majority
Islam is the other 23-25%. That's 56-58% of the world population that professes belief in Jesus to some degree.

> So are Islam and Hinduism. You’re also adding all Christians together, but I’d imagine you consider all prots, Mormons, and Jehovah’s Witnesses non-Christians
I never said Protestants aren't Christians. My central thesis isn't necessarily that Christianity is the most widespread, but that the most widespread and belived in Messiah in history and today is Jesus. No other person has come as close to him in this regard. When people think of Messiah, they typically think of Jesus of Nazareth.

>Don’t you fags usually claim Muslims secretly worship a moon god or some shit
I don't claim that and neither do the biggest Christian denominations. Only hard-core Fundamentalists think that.

>Uh, I know they consider Jesus a prophet, but do they accept the Messiah claim? I genuinely don’t know.
Literally a simple Google search will tell you Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah.

>>17799019

>And Christianity is very concentrated over the US, Canada, Australia, and Europe (aka the Anglosphere)
Christianity is in North America, Europe, Africa, Australia, South-East Asia, Northern Asia, and parts of the Middle East (Cyprus, Lebanon, and big communities on Egypt and Syria). Hinduism is concentrated really only to the Indian subcontinent where it arose. Christianity has spread far and wide beyond where it arose.

>It really doesn’t
It really does.


>You mean the religion was eventually strongest in the nation where the religion originated? Crazy.
Where it was also persecuted and looked on with suspicion for centuries.

>>17799056
And yet no Christian today thinks this.

>The prophesy is fulfilled because Muslims are basically Christians
We’ve reached levels of tradtard cope that I didn’t think was possible.

>>17799108
Even if Islam wasn't a thing, 33% of the world believes Jesus. An extremely larger percentage of the world. No other supossed Messiah has ever done this.

>>17799051
>Christianity is a form of idolatry and also polytheism
We do not worship idols nor do we acknowledge any god but G-d. For there are many gods and many lords among men, but for us there is one G-d, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, as Moses taught the congregation to recite.
>Plus it's not the entire world
Not yet. But entire nations were baptized into Christ, and were brought unto Zion to worship the G-d of Abraham. How is it that I know Him when I am a child of Japheth? Which false messiah ever did that?
>The disciples of the disciples (etc) of his alleged disciples did through the course of two thousand years of much change.
On His orders and by His Spirit. If Caesar conquered Gaul, then Jesus is conquering the world.
>Judaism was a proselytizing religion back then
First the gentiles came to them, in fulfillment of the prophecy "In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you.’” And the G-d-fearers came in to provide fertile ground for the Church, for when the gospel went out they flocked to Jesus in droves.
>G-d is not three things.
Amen.
>G-d did not nullify the law for lols. etc.
Nor did our Lord, for how can you condemn Him as "nullifying the law" when even your own rabbis say those laws are not binding on us gentiles?
>a wandering mystic to fulfill no prophecies
He fulfilled them, and is fulfilling is, for He rules in the midst of His enemies.

>>17798775
I might add also that Mormonism has apparently grown a great deal faster in the same amount of time as Christianity, and largely at the expense of Nicene Christianity