While I know that Twitter threads can be problematic, I found this image that illustrates the point I am trying to make. For years, there have been debates about how Spanish America was supposedly more civilized compared to the English/Protestants, who are often accused of massacring the Indians and integrating them into the Spanish crown as "equals," and these debates are often approached from an antagonistic perspective. I notice that many "Hispanists" *related photo* make these arguments, and apparently the "Latin right" also makes these assumptions.

In addition, there is the idea that the Iberians were more open to miscegenation in general, in contrast to the racist chauvinism of the English. I would like to know to what extent these claims are legitimate and who started these debates
sources would be good

it's brown latinx trying to larp as european/hispanistas. the sad reality is they got raped into existence and they try to cope by pretending they are roman latin iberian tradcath conquisators

>>17799076 (OP)
Genetics has refuted a century of "Hispanicism"
The Spanish were not the ones who mixed, this happened in the POST-INDEPENDENCE periods.
And see how Hispanicism is dead outside of Latin countries. A Spanish trad cath who loves colonization does not see Pedro Martinez from Guanatos as his "brother"

>>17799209
This
>>17799206
Its funny to see these Brazilians larping as "muh Iberian civilization n shiet", Meanwhile throwing at anglos, as if Iberians somehow prefer latinos rather other euros haha

>>17799076 (OP)
>ardent defender
don't say that

>>17799076 (OP)
I can't say anything about the Spanish America.
But some of the "super traditional wealthy" Brazilian families are patrilineally descended from Native chiefs who sided with the Portuguese against other tribes.

>>17799250
Brazilian cope

>>17799076 (OP)
The British had many Native allies. In fact the Americans were incessantly complaining that Britain was too nice to the Natives. It was a major issue at the time.

>>17799250
You mean they raped the natives to death and then LARPed as them to justify a chimp out against other poortuguese

>>17799267
It always seemed to me that Empires consistently favored natives over settlers. Natives were free population that didn’t require planning or investment, were often engaged in or could be persuaded to the kind of trade that was profitable to the government, had simple power structures which could be easily co-opted by the government, and had far lower expectations/demands of the government’s attention and treasury. European settlers were fragile, interested in their own mundane trades and development, brought along church hierarchies and ideas of their own rights and the government’s duties to them, and were continually in need of financial, military, and even social support – and on many occasions constituted a refuge for government rivals, in people or ideas. Not that the empires were particularly benevolent toward the natives. Just seems like it was a more profitable association than with settlers most of the time. Settlement seemed to be more a way to both impose a nexus of government control and get rid of unwanted domestic elements (minorities, criminals, relatives), but not an exercise in nation-building or expanding the homeland in new territory. idk

>>17799076 (OP)
>I would like to know to what extent these claims are legitimate
For the first claim. They are partially legitimate, the Spanish did use Native American Auxilia, the monarchy did respect the status and titles of Native American Nobility. And ocassionably ennobled some native Americans. This is seen most clearly in the Tlaxcaltecs. Who even into the 18th century kept a lot of privileges on paper (though these were in practice ignored). And to this day, Tlaxcala as a territorial entity largely retains the borders of the original Tlaxcallan state.
As for miscegenation, ehhhhh, it's exaggerated. But not too much.

>who started these debates
Don't know. Probably unwittingly started by some spanish polemicist attempting to refute the black legend or something.

>>17799076 (OP)
If the Spanish had displaced natives into reservations and turned it into farmland for whites like the British did then the entire Americas would be as successful as the USA and there would be half a billion more white people on the globe. Humanity would be on Mars by now. Instead the Spanish preferred to racemix.

>>17799332
Hello, pedro

>>17799076 (OP)
(1/2)

The reason for this propaganda is because Hispanic people, particularly Hispanists are deeply insecure, which is the fault of the Spanish. I don’t have anything against Spain, that’s not what this is about.

Basically, a lot of religious and political debates, and by extension of that, racial debates come from spats and intentionally dishonest propaganda narratives from colonial-era Europe when Western European powers were squabbling. Half of all arguments from the “new atheism” antagonists, anti-theists atheists come from pre-1800s propaganda against Catholics (because Britain no likely Spain), and sometimes more particularly, Puritan arguments against other English Protestants. Same thing goes for a lot of points made in “white supremacy” narratives coming out of Africa, LatAm, and even some parts of Asia. The nefarious, cunning, ever present but never seen ANGLOSAJON PIRATA is to blame for every single woe. The Spaniards had their narratives as did the Brits, and then the Spaniards lost their empire because they managed it inappropriately. This narrative, combined with the insecurity of Mestizos for having dysfunctional countries leads to the shit you see today. The Spaniards prohibited inter-colony communication and trade, so Latin American countries, obviously are not one giant unified country. However, this could NEVER be the fault of the Spanish, the social ideas of Latin Americans, or multigenerational societal dysfunction, no. Instead, the Latino Raza, obviously the most morally and intellectually superior of all races, was bound to create one massive Bolivarian Fascisto-Communistic Imperial-Republican State spanning from ISLAS MALVINAS (Falklands for normal people) to TERRITORIO DE NUTCA (Alaska for normal people) that had a larger economy, population size, and territory than any other country, and the ONLY thing standing in the way of that is the ETERNAL ANGLO.

>>17799076 (OP)
>>17799397
(2/2)

Anyways yeah, the le based but also totally morally perfect Spaniards (so much for the Christian doctrine of humans being inherently flawed) never did ANYTHING to le heckin’ wholesome Indiorinos (they did literally everything they constantly berate the English for). They did everything the Bri’ish did to the natives and yet because they mixed with them all their societies were unsuccessful. That’s not to say that Natives are incapable of creating civilizations, or that mixing inherently destroys chances of creating a civilization. Rather, the fact that they mixed with the natives without ensuring a full transfer of their social attitudes from indigenous to European means that you have people trying to operate within a predominantly western-inspired system without western ideals and ways of living. It’s syncretic, yet they’re trying to be politically European. This is why some of their ideas can seem so foreign, and why on paper these are the most devoutly Catholic areas on the planet yet they worship pagan deities and participate in more heresy and excommunicable offenses than any other self-identified Christian region of the planet, making a secular Turkish person look like a trad SSPX Latin Mass Vatican I Saint by comparison

>>17799402
>>17799397
OP here. Some source to share to us? Thank you.
>>17799332
I'll post the PDF, but apparently there was a caste system, right?

>>17799554
I genuinely wish I had a list for you. Years ago I used to argue with people about a myriad of topics, I no longer care to because most people don’t care to listen or engage in good faith, so all lists of sources I used to have are long gone.

Anyways, if you want resources about how a lot of leftist anti-religion and “anti-imperialist” arguments are adopted from old disputes between Protestant Northwestern Europeans and Catholic Western and Southern Europeans, I’d recommend listening to Christian apologists and polemicists. They have the same arguments thrown at them by Muslims, Atheists, and Jews and refute them while also explaining the origins of these arguments.

As for my statement about the Spanish only allowing their colonies to communicate and trade through them instead of directly with each other, it’s just sort of common knowledge amongst history buffs. I remember learning about it in both high school and college when the topic of New World colonization was addressed, as well as seeing it more in countless videos, articles, reports, and essays. If you go to some of the history nerds on youtube who make video essays you’ll often hear it brought up and maybe they’d have sources in their description. Other than that, honestly just check Wikipedia, NOW before anyone rips on me for that, I know Wiki can be inaccurate and is far from perfect, but it’s better than most other resources that cover millions of topics, and their sources listed are often good, so you may find something there.

>>17799581
This is false. You can literally just read the problems that the Basque monopoly caused in Venezuela with rewards to cocoa exports to Mexico which in the past they could do directly. Another huge item of intercolonial trade was the large textile industry in Quito which exported a lot to Mexico
What you are trying to talk about is the fair system which on purpose limited the number of ports which was replaced by direct trade by the Bourbons.

>>17799554
Yes, there was. Though you could buy yourself a higher status if you were wealthy enough, it wasn't like the Hindu Varna/Jati system.

>>17799262
>>17799271
What?
No, they are indeed patrilineally descended from chiefs.

Maybe you want to demonize the Hiberian nations for some political reason and of course like other nations they were not 100% good or 100% bad.

But many of the "old blood" families here are descended from indigenous families.