If its plausible the Bronze Age Achaeans and Danaans of Homer practiced circumcision according to the records of pharaoh Merneptah's time and the Karnak inscription, why did greeks do a 180 in the Iron Age, completely abhorring it?

Iron Age greeks considered it a severe dessecration of the genitalia. Apparently in the Hellenistic period jews tried to hide their circumcision to go to greek gymnasiums, where men often worked out naked.

However egyptian sources mention the Ekwesh, alongside the Shekelesh, Sherden and Denyen, practiced circumcision. The records mention them explecitly lacking a foreskin so they hands were cut off instead of their penises. Others like the Peleset and the Libyans that aided the Ekwesh in their attack on the nile delta, were uncircumcised so they had their penises cut off.

What were the origins of this practice in Mycenaean Greece? Was it common for all social classes or only for the aristocracy? I'd assume its related to phoenician influence, due to their legends of dynasties that trace themselves to figures like Cadmus of Phoenicia or Danaus from Egypt (for whom the danaans are named after).

These guys probably weren't Indo-Europeans but their Semitic or whatever allies.

>>17825118
I would assume so but the Karnak inscription (in the linked document) mentions them as coming from the North (i.e. Greece) to Egypt which makes that interpretation more problematic. Their armor description seems to match the one given by Homer in the iliad (check after page 91 on the pdf reader for their armor description, page 77 in the books numbering). In certain places Ekwesh is spelled "Akawasha", linked to the Ahhiyawa of Hittite records. Semites are mentioned by other terms in another part of the inscription (Instruction to Amenemhat XIIc)

Nontheless this practice isn't Indo-European like you said, but I can see it developing in Achaean culture due to the extended contact and trade between Mycenae and the Bronze Age levant.

https://www.ancientportsantiques.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/PLACES/Egypt-Libya/PerireBattle-Manassa2003.pdf

>>17825140
>Mentions them as coming from the North (i.e. Greece)
This is such an insane leap of logic that it defies belief.

>>17825114 (OP)
>If its plausible the Bronze Age Achaeans and Danaans of Homer practiced circumcision according to the records of pharaoh Merneptah's time and the Karnak inscription,
Can you try reading what you posted first? These are people that Egyptians encountered locally. While it is possible to take a boat from Greece to Egypt, it would make a lot of sense if those attacking Egypt were more locally affiliated, perhaps from the Levant. Greeks had colonies around the Eastern Mediterranean and were in constant contact with Levantine peoples. They setup a colony in Israel and created the Philistines who were Mycenaean/Levantine mutts. I wouldn't be surprised if people like that in these mixed Greek colonies maintained connections with Greece.

I find it unlikely that circumcision would be a prominent indigenous practice of mainland Greeks without recent Levantine ancestry. For one, genital mutilation in general was originally associated with slavery (yes even circumcision). It later got transformed into "slavery to Yahweh" > "devotion to Yahweh" but Judaism wouldn't be on the scene until quite late, so one expects it to be practiced on those of lower social status. Does a military unit of slaves invading Egypt make sense? Yes, they could have been offered freedom in return for achievements in battle.

>>17825152
Where do you suggest the Ekwesh/Akawesh come from then? Anatolia? Cyprus?

>>17825161
You can't think of or imagine any Semitic groups to the north of Egypt?

>>17825118
IE is a language, not a race, just like Semitic, retard. The Mycenaeans were 20% R1b/Steppe, closer genetically and culturally to the CHG-Iran_N/J2 ANF/G2 Minoans, who used the Linear B script derived from Minoan Linear A, with the addition of more words of IE origin. The "original Semites" in reference to where they lived, were not even J, but E (ANA).

>>17825173
kill yourself retarded brazilian

>>17825157
This explanation makes sense to me. Honeslt the aristocratic thing might have been a stretch but I was just trying to make sense of it. The thing is the Peleset, who I assume to be Philistines proper, werent circumcised but the other sea peoples were.

>>17825165
Semites in egyptian records are said to come from the east not north. Although I do concede the Ekwesh were some form of Myecenean-Semite mix, the text says they came from the islands in the north. The levant isn't an island.

>>17825173
>The "original Semites" in reference to where they lived, were not even J, but E (ANA)

So much so that the oldest cases of circumcision are found in Egypt and not Arabia/Levant.

>At Oued Djerat, in Algeria, engraved rock art with masked bowmen, which feature male circumcision and may be a scene involving ritual, have been dated to earlier than 6000 BP amid the Bubaline Period, more specifically, while possibly dating much earlier than 10,000 BP, rock art walls from the Bubaline Period have been dated between 9200 BP and 5500 BP. The cultural practice of circumcision may have spread from the Central Sahara, toward the south in Sub-Saharan Africa and toward the east in the region of the Nile. Based on engraved evidence found on walls and evidence from mummies, circumcision has been dated to at least as early as 6000 BCE in ancient Egypt. Some ancient Egyptian mummies, which have been dated as early as 4000 BCE, show evidence of circumcision

>Evidence suggests that circumcision was practiced in the Middle East by the fourth millennium BCE, when the Sumerians and the Semites moved into the area that is modern-day Iraq from the North and West. The earliest historical record of circumcision comes from Egypt, in the form of an image of the circumcision of an adult carved into the tomb of Ankh-Mahor at Saqqara, dating to about 2400–2300 BCE. Circumcision was possibly done by the Egyptians for hygienic reasons, but also was part of their obsession with purity and was associated with spiritual and intellectual development. No well-accepted theory explains the significance of circumcision to the Egyptians, but it appears to have been endowed with great honor and importance as a rite of passage, performed in a public ceremony emphasizing the continuation of family generations and fertility. It may have been a mark of distinction for the elite: the Egyptian Book of the Dead describes the sun god Ra as having circumcised himself

>>17825175
>Semites in egyptian records are said to come from the east not north. Although I do concede the Ekwesh were some form of Myecenean-Semite mix, the text says they came from the islands in the north. The levant isn't an island.

It doesn't say that at all. Are you just making things up and hoping we won't check?
>Akawesha from the foreign lands of the sea
This doesn't mention islands, and it doesn't mention the north. They could well have been Semites from the coast of the Red Sea.

>>17825114 (OP)
danaans are the tribe of dan, this isn't new. other greeks like pythagoras were circumcized too.

>>17825174
Cope and Seethe.

>The Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I2, E1b1b, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Levant was picked up in Anatolia along the way by Levantine farmers and herders. Minoan Greeks migrated from Mesopotamia via Anatolia. They were mostly J2 people, but probably had some E1b1b too

>A 2017 archaeogenetics study of mtDNA polymorphisms from Mycenaean and Minoan remains published in the journal Nature concluded that the Mycenaean Greeks were genetically closely related with the Minoans, and that both are closely related, but not identical, to modern Greek populations. The same study also stated that at least three-quarters of DNA of both the Mycenaeans and the Minoans came from the first Neolithic-era farmers that lived in Western Anatolia and the Aegean Sea (Mycenaeans ~74–78%, Minoans ~84–85%) while most of the remainder came from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus and Iran (Mycenaeans ~8–17%, Minoans ~14–15%)

>Unlike the Minoans, the Mycenaeans had also "4–16% ancestry from a 'northern' ultimate source related to the hunter-gatherers of Eastern Europe and [Upper Palaeolithic] Siberia"; however, Lazaridis et al. admit that they "cannot model Mycenaeans as a mixture of Anatolian Neolithic and steppe populations [...] due to the fact that Mycenaeans have more Iran-related than EHG-related ancestry". Among the Mycenaean samples was found one Y-DNA J2a1, and two mtDNA X2, one X2d and one H

>In their archaeogenetics study, Lazaridis et al. (2017) concluded that the Minoans and the Mycenaean Greeks were genetically highly similar – but not identical – and that modern Greeks descend from these populations, ultimately proving the genetic continuity between these civilizations and modern Greeks

>>17825181

>"The earliest textual reference to the Mycenaean world is in the Annals of Thutmosis III (c.1479–1425 BC), which refers to messengers from the king of the Tanaju, c.1437 BC, offering greeting gifts to the Egyptian king, in order to initiate diplomatic relations, when the latter campaigned in Syria.[21] Tanaju is also listed in an inscription at the Mortuary Temple of Amenhotep III. The latter ruled Egypt in c.1382–1344 BC. Moreover, a list of the cities and regions of the Tanaju is also mentioned in this inscription; among the cities listed are Mycenae, Nauplion, Kythera, Messenia and the Thebaid (region of Thebes)."

https://www.academia.edu/221955/The_Egyptian_Interest_in_Mycenaean_Greece

>>17825191
None of this implies that the Akawesha in the Karnak inscriptions (Karnak, by the way, is much closer to the Red Sea than the Med) refers to Greeks, none of it gives a northern direction, and none of it mentions islands.

>>17825181
https://www.ancientportsantiques.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/AUTHORS/SeaPeoples/SeaPeoples-Moreu2020.pdf

>>17825190
>The same study also stated that at least three-quarters of the DNA of both the Mycenaeans and the Minoans came from the first Neolithic-era farmers that lived in Western Anatolia and the Aegean Sea (Mycenaeans ~74–78%, Minoans ~84–85%) while most of the remainder came from ancient populations related to the Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers and Neolithic Iran (Mycenaeans ~8–17%, Minoans ~14–15%)

>The Y-DNA haplogroup of Mycenaeans, J2a1 (in Galatas Apatheia, ca. 1700-1200), shows continuity of haplogroups from Minoan samples, so it does not clarify the potential demic diffusion of Proto-Greeks marked by R1b subclade

>A cephalometric analysis by Argyropoulos et al. (1989) published in The Angle Orthodontist showed remarkable similarity in craniofacial morphology between ancient Greeks (including Mycenaeans) and modern Greeks, suggesting a close affinity, and that the Greek ethnic group remained stable in its cephalic and facial morphology for the last 4,000 years

>A craniofacial morphological study by Papagrigorakis et al. (2014) published in Anthropologischer Anzeiger also indicated craniological similarities between modern Greeks and ancient Greeks (including Mycenaeans), indicating continuity

>In an archaeogenetic study published in Nature, Lazaridis et al. (2017) found that Minoans and Mycenaean Greeks were genetically highly similar, but not identical; modern Greeks resembled the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the early Neolithic ancestry. Furthermore, proposed migrations by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists was not discernible in their data, thus "rejecting the hypothesis that the cultures of the Aegean were seeded by migrants from the old civilizations of these regions." The FST between the sampled Bronze Age populations and present-day West Eurasians was estimated, finding that Mycenaean Greeks and Minoans were least differentiated from the populations of modern Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy

>>17825193
It implies it for the Denyen/Tenaju at least.

The inscription is from Karnak but the battle happened at the Nile delta, its clear in the next

>>17825194
You are now posting a source that considers it explicitly implausible.

>>17825198
A central mediterranean homeland is implausible not the aegean one

>>17825196
>A genetic study by Clemente et al. (2021) found that in the Early Bronze Age, the populations of the Minoan, Helladic, and Cycladic civilizations in the Aegean, were genetically homogeneous. In contrast, during the Middle Bronze Age, this population was more differentiated; probably due to gene flow from a Yamnaya-related population from the Pontic–Caspian steppe

>This is corroborated by sequenced genomes of Middle Bronze Age individuals from northern Greece, who had a much higher proportion of steppe-related ancestry; the timing of this gene flow was estimated at 2,300 BCE, and is consistent with the dominant linguistic theories explaining the emergence of the Proto-Greek language. Present-day Greeks share about 90% of their ancestry with them, suggesting continuity between the two time periods. In the case of Mycenaeans however, this steppe-related ancestry was diluted. The ancestry of the Mycenaeans could be explained via a 2-way admixture model of such MBA individuals in northern Greece, and either an EBA Aegean or MBA Minoan population

>A study by Lazaridis et al. (2022) analysed 21 new Mycenaean samples and one new Minoan sample, along with previously published samples. The study found that Mycenaeans were differentiated from Minoans by an influx of western steppe (Yamnaya-like) ancestry, with Mycenaean samples having approximately 8.6±2% steppe/Yamnaya-like ancestry on average, comprising 4.3±1% Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) ancestry on average and an approximately matching amount of Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry (4.3±1% on average), though some of the Mycenaeans lacked steppe ancestry altogether. Individual Mycenaean samples from mainland Greece had proportions of EHG ancestry ranging from 0% up to 19±7% at Kastrouli, or 12±2% at the Palace of Nestor. Another Mycenaean individual from Crete, dating from c.1370 – c.1340 BC (Crete Armenoi) had 24±6% EHG ancestry

>>17825114 (OP)
>What were the origins of this practice in Mycenaean Greece?
There were none.
>Was it common for all social classes or only for the aristocracy?
It was unknown for all of them.

>>17825201
>The remaining (non steppe-related) Mycenaean ancestry was similar to that of the Minoans and the Early Bronze Age population of mainland Greece, and elite Mycenaean samples (from the Palace of Nestor at Pylos and its environs) did not differ from the general population in terms of their average ancestral composition

>According to Lazaridis et al. these results strongly support the hypothesis that Mycenaeans were the outcome of admixture between descendants of Yamnaya-like steppe migrants and a Minoan-like population, with steppe migrants considered to be Indo-European speakers and progenitors of the Greek language. Minoans were predominantly of Early European Farmer ancestry (74±3% on average), with additional Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer ancestry (18.2±1.2% on average). Lazaridis et al. also identified Levant Pre-Pottery Neolithic ancestry in some Minoan and Mycenaean individuals

>In a comment on the study by Lazaridis et al. (2022), Paul Heggarty of the Max Planck Institute expressed doubts regarding the connection between the "small contribution in Mycenaean Greece" of the "ancestral mix of Yamnaya culture" and the steppe as the "earliest, original source" of Indo-European languages

>A study by Skourtanioti et al. (2023) generated genome-wide data from 95 Bronze Age individuals from mainland Greece and the Aegean, which was analysed in the context of all previously published samples from the region. Mycenaean (Late Bronze Age) individuals were found to deviate from Early Bronze Age individuals in the direction of Central and Eastern European Bronze Age populations, due to having western steppe-related ancestry not found in the earlier samples

>>17825114 (OP)
They quite literally were Israelites.

From Diodorus Siculus:
> Since we are about to give an account of the war against the Jews, we consider it appropriate, before we proceed further, in the first place to relate the origin of this nation, and their customs. In ancient times a great plague occurred in Egypt, and many ascribed the cause of it to the gods, who were offended with them. For since the multitudes of strangers of different nationalities, who lived there, made use of their foreign rites in religious ceremonies and sacrifices, the ancient manner of worshipping the gods, practised by the ancestors of the Egyptians, had been quite lost and forgotten. 2 Therefore the native inhabitants concluded that, unless all the foreigners were driven out, they would never be free from their miseries. All the foreigners were forthwith expelled, and the most valiant and noble among them, under some notable leaders, were brought to Greece and other places, as some relate; the most famous of their leaders were Danaus and Cadmus. But the majority of the people descended into a country not far from Egypt, which is now called Judaea and at that time was altogether uninhabited. 3 The leader of this colony was one Moses, a very wise and valiant man, who, after he had possessed himself of the country, amongst other cities, built that now most famous city, Jerusalem, and the temple there, which is so greatly revered among them. He instituted the holy rites and ceremonies with which they worship God; and made laws for the methodical government of the state.

>>17825209
>The potential source of this ancestry included related groups from Serbia (Early Bronze Age), Croatia (Middle Bronze Age), Italy (Early and Middle Bronze Age), 'Western Steppe Eneolithic-Bronze Age', and 'Germany Corded Ware'; the latter two were found to be the most adequate sources, but "at the moment it is not possible to more closely identify the region(s) from where this genetic affinity was derived." Using 'Germany Corded Ware' as a source proxy, it was estimated that Mycenaeans from the southern Greek mainland had 22.3% steppe-related ancestry on average

>Whereas Late Bronze Age individuals from nearby islands and the Cyclades had slightly lower amounts of this ancestry, and one individual from the island of Salamis had none; in Crete, samples dating from the 17th to the 16th centuries BC had minimal or no such steppe-related ancestry, whereas later samples dating from c.1300 BC varied from 0% to approximately 40% steppe-related ancestry. This influx of steppe-related ancestry was related to Mycenaean domination of the island from the 15th century BC onwards, and was possibly also due in part to later migrations from more distant areas such as Italy

>Haplogroups of Mycenaean samples

>Date / Location / Sex / mtDNA/ Y-DNA

>c.1700 – c.1450 BC / Chania, Crete / Male / T2b / CT

>c.1700 – c.1200 BC / Apatheia Galatas, Peloponnese / Male / X2 / J2a1

>c.1700 – c.1200 BC / Apatheia Galatas, Peloponnese / Female / X2 / -

>c.1626 – c.1518 BC / Mygdalia, Achaea, Peloponnese / Female / H26b / –

>c.1626 – c.1508 BC / Lazarides, Aegina / Female / T1a5 / –

>c.1613 – c.1503 BC / Proskynas, Phthiotis / Male / ? / J

>c.1612 – c.1452 BC / Mygdalia, Achaea, Peloponnese / Male / T1a4 / J2b2a1

>c.1611 – c.1457 BC / Mygdalia, Achaea, Peloponnese / Male / K1a / J2b2a1

>c.1611 – c.1452 BC / Mygdalia, Achaea, Peloponnese / Male / K1a / J2b2a1

>c.1610 – c.1448 BC / Kolikrepi-Spata, Attica / Female / T2c1+146 / –

>>17825218
>c.1609 – c.1446 BC / Mygdalia, Achaea, Peloponnese / Male /U8b1a2b / G2a2a1

>c.1596 – c.1438 BC / Mygdalia, Achaea, Peloponnese / Female / U3c / –

>c.1520 – c.1440 BC / Palace of Nestor, Messenia, Peloponnese / Male / ? / F

>c.1516 – c.1436 BC / Kolikrepi-Spata, Attica / Female / HV /–

>c.1505 – c.1429 BC / Kolikrepi-Spata, Attica / Female / HV0a / –

>c.1504 – c.1425 BC / Mygdalia, Achaea, Peloponnese / Male / U8b1a2b / J2b2a1

>c.1500 BC / Aidonia, Corinthia, Peloponnese / Male / R0a1a / C1a2

>c.1500 BC / Aidonia, Corinthia, Peloponnese / Female / K1a2c / –

>c.1497 – c.1316 BC / Kolikrepi-Spata, Attica / Male / H5 / J2a1a2b2a2b2

>c.1440 – c.1299 BC / Tiryns, Argolid, Peloponnese / Male / W1h1 / J2a1a1a2

>c.1429 – c.1293 BC / Glyka Nera, Attica / Male / ? / R1b1a1b

>c.1424 – c.1293 BC / Lazarides, Aegina / Male / H / G2a

>c.1421 – c.1313 BC / Glyka Nera, Attica / Male / U3c / J2a1a

>c.1416 – c.1280 BC / Peristeria Tryfilia, Peloponnese / Female / H / –

>c.1411 – c.1262 BC / Agia Kyriaki, Salamis / Female / X2d / –

> c.1410 – c.1360 BC / Palace of Nestor, Messenia, Peloponnese / Female / J1c1 / –

> c.1403 – c.1233 BC / Lazarides, Aegina / Female / K2a2a / –

> c.1403 – c.1229 BC / Tiryns, Argolid, Peloponnese / Male / H13a2a / J2a

> c.1400 – c.1300 BC / Chania, Crete / Female / H41a / –

>c.1400 – c.1300 BC / Chania, Crete / Male / K1a+195 / J2a1a1a2

>c.1400 – c.1300 BC / Chania, Crete / Female / N1a1b / –

>c.1400 – c.1300 BC / Chania, Crete / Male / ? / G2

>c.1400 – c.1300 BC / Chania, Crete / Female / H4a1 / –

>c.1397 – c.1222 BC / Kastrouli-Desfina, Phokis / Female / K1a2 / –

>c.1394 – c.1222 BC / Tiryns, Argolid, Peloponnese / Female / V / –

>c.1386 – c.1217 BC / Kastrouli-Desfina, Phokis / Male / H2 / G2a2b

>c.1382 – c.1134 BC / Kastrouli-Desfina, Phokis / Male / W1 / J2a1a2b2a2b2

>>17825157
>>17825175
>>17825182
>>17825212

Mycenaean greeks practicing circumcizion doesn't make them automatically jewish. Stupid conclusion to jump to. Were the egyptians jews too because of that logic?

>>17825227
>c.1375 BC / Aidonia, Corinthia, Peloponnese / Female / U5a1d2b / –

>c.1375 – c.1200 BC / Aidonia, Corinthia, Peloponnese / Male / N1b1a2 / J2a

>c.1375 – c.1200 BC / Aidonia, Corinthia, Peloponnese / Male / N1b1a2 / J2a2

>c.1375 – c.1200 BC / Aidonia, Corinthia, Peloponnese / Male / ? / R1b1a1b

>c.1371 – c.1123 BC / Kastrouli-Desfina, Phokis / Male / K2b / G

>c.1367 – c.1112 BC / Kastrouli-Desfina, Phokis / Female / U3b1b / –

>c.1360 – c.1295 BC / Palace of Nestor, Messenia, Peloponnese / Male / H7 / G

>c.1360 – c.1295 BC / Palace of Nestor, Messenia, Peloponnese / Male / ? / G2a2a1a2a1a1

>c.1360 – c.1295 BC / Palace of Nestor, Messenia, Peloponnese / Female / J1c+16261 / –

>c.1360 – c.1070 BC / Palace of Nestor, Messenia, Peloponnese / Female / K1c1 / –

>c.1350 – c.1250 BC / Chania, Crete / Female / W1h1 / –

>c.1350 – c.1250 BC / Chania, Crete / Male / ? / CT

>c.1350 – c.1150 BC / Kastrouli-Desfina, Phokis / Male / T2c1d1 / G2a2b2b1a1a2

>c.1350 – c.1150 BC / Kastrouli-Desfina, Phokis / Female / U3b / –

>c.1350 – c.1150 BC / Kastrouli-Desfina, Phokis / Female / U3b1 / –

>c.1300 – c.1250 BC / Chania, Crete / Female / H7c / –

>c.1300 – c.1250 BC / Chania, Crete / Male / H4a1 / E1b1b1a1b

>c.1300 – c.1250 BC / Chania, Crete / Female / H1bm / –

>c.1300 – c.1250 BC / Chania, Crete / Female / HV1a'b'c / –

>c.1300 – c.1250 BC / Chania, Crete / Male / H / J2a / J2a1a~

>c.1300 – c.1250 BC / Chania, Crete / Male / J2b1 / R1b1a1b

>c.1300 – c.1250 BC / Chania, Crete / Male / K1a4b1 / J2a1a1a2

>c.1300 – c.1250 BC / Chania, Crete / Female / N1'5 / –

>c.1300 – c.1250 BC / Chania, Crete / Female / HV1 / –

>c.1300 – c.1200 BC / Chania, Crete / Male / H1 / G2a2b2a

>c.1300 – c.1200 BC / Chania, Crete / Female / H1e / –

>c.1300 – c.1200 BC / Chania, Crete / Female / H1 / –

>c.1300 – c.1200 BC / Chania, Crete / Female / H1az / –

>>17825232
>c.1300 – c.1200 BC / Chania, Crete / Female / W6 / –

>c.1300 – c.1200 BC / Chania, Crete / Female / HV4a1+16291 / –

>c.1300 – c.1200 BC / Chania, Crete / Male / X2 / J2a

>c.1300 – c.1200 BC / Chania, Crete / Female / H1m / –

>c.1300 – c.1200 BC / Chania, Crete / Male / J2b1 / G2a

>c.1200 – c.1070 BC / Palace of Nestor, Messenia, Peloponnese / Male / N1a1a1a3 / R1b1a1b2a

>c.1200 – c.1070 BC / Palace of Nestor, Messenia, Peloponnese / Male / ? / R1b1a1b

>c.1200 – c.1070 BC / Palace of Nestor, Messenia, Peloponnese / Male / X / R1b1a1b

>c.1175 – c.1150 BC / Koukounaries, Paros / Female / H5a2 / –

>c.1175 – c.1150 BC / Koukounaries, Paros / Male / U1a1a / J1 / J1b

>c.1175 – c.1150 BC / Koukounaries, Paros / Female / J2b1b1 / –

>c.1175 – c.1150 BC / Koukounaries, Paros / Female / H+16291 / –

>>17825180
>>At Oued Djerat, in Algeria, engraved rock art with masked bowmen, which feature male circumcision
Arab non-sense. Libyans were unmutilated. .

>Circumcision was possibly done by the Egyptians for hygienic reasons
More Arab non-sense. Egyptians were uncircumsed, they only circumcised their slaves, the word for circumcision itself in Egyptian means to make something dirty.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/s%EA%9C%A5b

>>17825114 (OP)
They practiced circumcision due to the cult of Ouranos as a form of symbolic castration, nothing to do with Phoenicia much less Jews.

>why did greeks do a 180 in the Iron Age, completely abhorring it?

Same way their pantheon got shifted around after the greek dark ages. Originally Poseidon was the main deity in mycenaean greece due to his associations with his chthonic "earth-shaker" epiphet. Zeus replaced Ouranos as the Sky-Father so it's cultic practices of male circumcisation stopped.

>>17825232
What's wrong with their feet?

>>17825228
If they practiced it, it was most likely relegated to slaves. Getting circumcized or castrated was a possible punishment for prisoners of war. The slave trade was bigger in the Levant though, which is probably why circumcision became so prominent there.

>>17825247
>According to Porphýrios (Porphyry, Πορφύριος), Zefs (Ζεύς) also castrated Krónos similarly.:

>"Saturn (Κρόνος), therefore, intoxicated with honey, is bound by Jupiter (Ζεὺς), and castrated in the same manner as Caelum (Οὐρανός). But the theological poet (Ὀρφεύς) intimates by this fable that the divine essences are, as it were, bound, and drawn down by delight into the fluctuating empire of generation; and that when resolved in pleasure, they produce certain powers by their seminal virtue. Thus Saturn castrates Caelum, who, by his desire of coition descends to earth. But the intoxication of honey signifies among theologists nothing more than the desire of coition; by the ensnaring power of which Saturn is castrated." (Περί του εν Ὀδυσσεία τῶν νυμφών ἄντρου Πορφυρίου, trans. Thomas Taylor, 1823.)

>In a fragment of an Orphic cosmogony, Zeus intoxicates Cronus with honey, sending him to sleep, and then castrates him

>One other account referred by Robert Graves, who claims to be following the account of the Byzantine mythographer Tzetzes, it is said that Cronus was castrated by his son Zeus just like he had done with his father Uranus before. However the subject of a son castrating his own father, or simply castration in general, was so repudiated by the Greek mythographers of that time that they suppressed it from their accounts until the Christian era

>The myth of Cronus castrating Uranus parallels the Hurrian Song of Kumarbi, where Anu (the heavens) is castrated by Kumarbi. In the Song of Ullikummi, Teshub uses the "sickle with which heaven and earth had once been separated" to defeat the monster Ullikummi, establishing that the "castration" of the heavens by means of a sickle was part of a creation myth, in origin a cut creating an opening or gap between heaven (imagined as a dome of stone) and earth enabling the beginning of time (chronos) and human history

>>17825228

> 20 King Arius of Sparta to Onias the High Priest, greetings. 21 We have found a document about the Spartans and the Jews indicating that we are related and that both of our nations are descended from Abraham. 22 Now that we have discovered this, please send us a report about your situation.

Truths coming out

>>17825290
>According to a badly mutilated text. Baal, son of Dagon, and his confederates attack El by surprise in his palace on Mount Sapan and succeed in tying him up and wounding him. Apparently "something" falls to the ground, which can be interpreted as the castration of the father of the gods. The hypothesis is plausible, not only because, in similar conflicts for the sovereignty, Uranus and the Hurrian/Hittite god Anu are castrated, but also because, despite the hostility he shows to Baal, EI will never attempt to recover his supreme position, not even when he learns that Baal has been killed by Mot. For in the ancient East, such a mutilation excludes the victim of it from sovereignty. Besides, except for text number, in which EI proves his virility by engendering the planetary gods, the Ugaritic documents seem to make him impotent. This explains his submissive and hesitant attitude and also the fact that Baal carries off El's wives, Asherah and Rahmayyu, wich could be a mirror of Dagon's and Baal's wives, Shalash and Shala

>When Hellenes encountered Phoenicians and, later, Hebrews, they identified the Semitic El, by interpretatio graeca, with Cronus. The association was recorded c. 100 AD by Philo of Byblos' Phoenician history, as reported in Eusebius' Præparatio Evangelica I.10.16. El (Cronus) is not the creator god or first god. El is rather the son of Sky (Uranus) and Earth (Ge), known to the Phoenicians as Šāmúma-wa-Ảrṣu. Sky and Earth are themselves children of 'Elyôn 'Most High' (Phoenician Ilib). El is brother to the God Bethel, to Dagon, Atlas (Thakaman-wa-Šanam) and to the goddesses Aphrodite/'Ashtart, Rhea (presumably Asherah), and Dione (equated with Ba'alat Gebal). To El/Cronus is attributed the practice of circumcision:

>"At the occurrence of a fatal plague, Kronos immolated his only son to his father Ouranos, and circumcised himself, forcing the allies (Eloim) who were with him to do the same."

>>17825209
Sauce of pic

weird. Should iron age greeks be more likely to practice circumcision due to phoenician contact?

>>17825350
Iron age greeks repudiated it. They must have stopped doing it because it became associated with "phoenicianess".

>>17825255
Are we to believe the entire hundred men strong Ekwesh army that raided egypt was only comprised of slaves?

>>17825365
>Are we to believe the entire hundred men strong Ekwesh army that raided egypt was only comprised of slaves?

They came to Egypt as mercenaries, so most likely yes.

>>17825387
>hired soldiers therefore slaves

This is the most insane reply in this thread. You yourself just conceeded they were mercenaries. Elsewhere they are described as having a coutry and kings, not just the Ekwesh but other Sea Peoples too. They weren't slaves. Them being a Mycenaean-Semitic mutt population makes more sense. >>17825157

>>17825114 (OP)
was egyptian circumcision male only, or females too?

>>17825173
>IE is a language, not a race
Wrong, hue
Indo-European is an ethnolinguistic group that geneticists identify as being the "Western Steppe Herders" component, and where there is such ancestry on a significant scale, there has been a change in language or culture. The samples are homogeneous and archaeologically show continuity. It is a people

>>17825114 (OP)

Male circumcision on the aegean is nothing new. Thales of Miletus was circumcized for example and it seems to have been present (although not common) in the ionian greeks living in anatolia which suggests they adopted local customs. Heraclitus was circumcized too I think. In mainland greece it was absolutely looked down upon and I seriously doubt they practiced it in any form then. Historicaly only present in Ionia. I was unaware the Ekwesh practiced it also, but keep in mind, nothing guarantees they were the Achaeans of Homer. If they were this could hint this practice was present in the Aegean prior to the iron age but thats purely speculative.

>>17825255
I think it's more of a cultural influence than a class difference. Greeks living in ionia and among levantines would probably try to integrate with the local customs. Pythagoras had to be circumcized to learn from Egyptians for instance.

>>17825114 (OP)
Little reminder that Yahweh is Velchanos-Zeus (Sky-Father of the Pre-IE Greeks that got kick out and exiled to Canaan) getting his revenge through Christianity against Olympian-Zeus (Sky-Father of the Achaeans, aka Aryan Greeks).

This is why you have a king of Sparta, Areus I, telling the High Priest of Israel, Onias, that Dorians and Israelites are cousins.

>>17825365
>Iron age greeks repudiated it. They must have stopped doing it because it became associated with "phoenicianess".
They didn't 'repudiate' it. They hated it, but never mentioned any previous use of the practice amongst the Hellenes. It is exclusively referred to as a mark of eastern Semitic peoples.

>>17826435
>Indo-European is an ethnolinguistic group that geneticists identify as being the "Western Steppe Herders" component

Who came from the Eastern Hunter-Gatherers/Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers, who came from the Western Hunter-Gatherers/Ancient Northern Eurasians. Why do you think genetically related peoples wouldn't have similar languages and words?

>and where there is such ancestry on a significant scale, there has been a change in language or culture

Basques and Etruscans are one of the people with the most Steppe and did not speak IE. They are not a people.

>>17827182
>but never mentioned any previous use of the practice amongst the Hellenes

Theres myths that Cronos circumcised himself and made others do the same. The pelasgians probably practiced a form of it.

>>17827365
Forgot pic. Source is Philo of Byblos.

>>17827078
>I think it's more of a cultural influence than a class difference. Greeks living in ionia and among levantines would probably try to integrate with the local customs. Pythagoras had to be circumcized to learn from Egyptians for instance.
You're not getting it. The way you're thinking about this is anachronistic. The local customs meant those of low social status were circumcized. Judaism hadn't been invented yet. The Elephantine papyri are proof.

There was only Canaanite polytheism and Yahwism at this stage. Instead of circumcision, sacrificing firstborn children as burnt offerings was common. That's the whole point behind the story of the binding of Isaac: the inventors of Judaism came up with the radical idea that Yahweh no longer needed human sacrifices, only a sign of sincere devotion. That's also why circumcision happens on the exact same day burnt offerings of firstborns were given: circumcision is a substitute.

Why is circumcision a sign of the covenant between Abraham and Yahweh to begin with? The act makes no sense socially unless you lived in the ancient Levant while the slave trade was active. If you were circumcized or had any kind of mutilated genitals, you were marked as someone's slave. It's really that simple. Circumcision was a symbolic act to mark someone as a slave to Yahweh so other forms of religious devotion such as human sacrifice could be deprecated.

It really is plausible that these "Mycenaeans" were just a military unit of slaves and nothing else. It's the best explanation for why they would be circumcized at all at the time and place, and it's not like we have extremely precise records from the Egyptians saying how many and how many were and weren't circumcized.

>>17827365
It's an embellishment of the earlier story where he castrated his father. That version of the story was seen as too illicit because it involved violence against one's own father and the total destruction of manhood. So they twisted it into violence against himself and mere circumcision because becoming a eunuch was in bad taste (like trooning out) and taught bad morals. Instead with circumcision they could make it into a message about sexual restraint.

The same thing happened with the story about Ham seeing Noah's nakedness and being punished for it. This was just a censored rehash of Cronus castrating his father, but the Biblical authors thought that version of the story was too obsene to tell straightforwardly.

>>17827365
>Theres myths that Cronos circumcised himself and made others do the same. The pelasgians probably practiced a form of it.
There is, frankly, no way in which such a practice, if it were widespread wouldn't have survived in some form amongst the Ionian Greeks or at least have been referenced somewhere by somebody. Being attested to in myth merely shows they were aware of it - which of course they would have been.

>>17827365
Cronus is YHWH, the god of the Jews

>>17827500
You keep thinking I'm trying to imply the Ekwesh were jews when they weren't. They were probably a Mycanean-Levantine mutt population like the Philistines so its likely they picked it up from their levantine ancestors. Theres no indication anywhere that sea peoples were slaves, many had their own kings and countries and coodinated raids on their own. Some of them picked up this practice from levantines others didn't. Theres no reason to justify it with social class when it justifies itself on its own. Myceneans didn't come up with circumcision on their own and didn't practice it, some sea peoples did however.

>and it's not like we have extremely precise records from the Egyptians saying how many and how many were and weren't circumcized

Actually the egyptian record gives you a total of 974 circumcized men if you add up all the circumcized dead soldiers the karnak inscription lists. And if you compare to the other numbers, they were a minority, and the circumcized men where exclusively Shekelesh, Sherden and Ekwesh and all Shekelesh, Sherden and Ekwesh were circumcized. The sea peoples didnt come all from the same place its entirely plausible some had weird practices they adopted from levantines that others didn't. You dont need to be scared of the easily falsifiable implication that the Achaeans were jews or something because thats not what I'm arguing.

>>17827544
>if it were widespread wouldn't have survived in some form amongst the Ionian Greeks

Thales of Miletus, from Anatolian Ionia was circumcized (Clement of Alexandria - Stromata, Book I, Chapter XV). It was rare but its recorded.

>>17827566
>You keep thinking I'm trying to imply the Ekwesh were jews when they weren't.
No, I'm not concerned about that.
974 slaves is plausible though.

>>17827684
In other words, I sincerely doubt there was a significant circumcision practice outside of slavery until Judaism. I am not concerned about them being Jews, but I am skeptical of there being a significant religious basis for circumcision until the advent of Judaism. Those are essentially the only two reasons for circumcision: slavery and religion. So I think a lot of effort should be spent proving there was a pre-Jewish religious practice if you want to argue they weren't slaves.

>>17827568
>Thales of Miletus, from Anatolian Ionia was circumcized (Clement of Alexandria - Stromata, Book I, Chapter XV). It was rare but its recorded.
It does not say that at all.

>These are the times of the oldest wise men and philosophers among the Greeks. And that the most of them were barbarians by extraction, and were trained among barbarians, what need is there to say? [...]
>Thales was a Phoenician by birth, and was said to have consorted with the prophets of the Egyptians; as also Pythagoras did with the same persons, by whom he was circumcised, that he might enter the adytum and learn from the Egyptians the mystic philosophy.

1) The passage says that Thales of Miletus was a Phoenician and not a Greek, and goes on to say that specifically Pythagoras (not Thales) got himself circumcised by Egyptians with the intention of learning more of their philosophy.
2) Clement of Alexandria was writing over 600 years after Pythagoras died
3) The passage makes obvious errors such as claiming Pythagoras was a Tyrian or Tuscan

>>17827721
Egyptian boys were circumcized as a rite of passage way before Jews did it. And it wasnt the slaves - it was the aristocracy, given mummies were circumcized.

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/2021-12-29/ty-article/five-foot-six-and-circumcised-ct-scan-uncovers-mummy-of-pharaoh/0000017f-e0cd-d568-ad7f-f3efcbb60000

>>17827901
Okay I'm coming around to it. What do you think the social context was for these 974 Mycenaean-affiliated warriors to be circumcized? Just a rite of passage? Something else?

>>17827544
Greeks and Romans did not practice cremation before the 6th century BC. Your point is retarded.

>>17827954
Moreu 2020 suggests it was some sort of oath of allegiance to canaanites, like the egyptians required Pythagoras to be circumcised too to study with them.
Alternatively it could be religious, relating to Osiris' mysteries like the Egyptians, or to Chronos if we are to believe Philos account. Some anatolians also circumcised and castrated themselves out of devotion to the Phrygian deity Attis, that was castrated.

>>17825157
Like this anon suggested, some aegeans would have installed themselves in the levant and possibly adopted some practices. Thus me suggesting they were of a mixed mycenanean and levantine background, culturally and religiously. A big indicator of religious mixing is Aphrodite is possibly an adoption of Astarte, since she was absent in Linear B and enters greece with Phoenician contact.

The main reason I dont believe them to be slaves is the respect they are given. Egyptians (who practiced circumcisation) not cutting their circumcised penises, opting to cut off their hands instead shows they somehow respected them for it. For non circumcised sea peoples and libyans, they cut off the whole penis.

>>17827721
It’s not slavery.
“ Herodotus, writing in the 5th century BCE, wrote that the Egyptians “practise circumcision for the sake of cleanliness, considering it better to be cleanly than comely.”

The sea peoples were circumcised because Egyptian culture was influential in the Adriatic and Aegean probably

>>17828105
Circumcision is not castration or mutilation.

>>17828113
I mention Attis only as another example from that region. Not to imply all the others I mentioned did it for castration purposes.

The idea that an army consisting solely of slaves was sent to raid foreign lands across the sea is incredibly retarded. These are myceneans we're talking about not mamluks

>>17825114 (OP)
According to Prophet Muhammad, Alexander the Great was Muslim prophet. The Ancient Macedonians were likely circumcised which explains why all of them were banned from the olympics since circumcised individuals were banned.

>>17828129
Slaves are disposable. Why wouldn't you use disposable people to attack a foreign nation?

>>17828106
Herodotus isn't telling us the real reason. He's just relaying the most common cope of the circumcized.

>>17828197
Nope that was his reason for it as he knew it from them. If it were slavery he would have said it as so.

>>17825114 (OP)
Ekwesh=Ashkenazi
>>17825161
Germany obviously

>>17828105
>oath of allegiance
It's some mental gymnastics they came up with after too many men were buckbroken by involuntary genital mutilation. It's just a crabs in a bucket mentality where they had to make others endure what they went through.
You let me cut off your foreskin = you're my bitch
There's no other way to put it without spitting on the truth. A bunch of abused slaves turned their trauma into a hazing ritual. Letting a man mutilate your genitals is the ultimate act of submission. What the historians left out was the part where the circumcized sucked the circumcizer's cock and swallowed and said thanks for turning him into a woman while nearly bleeding to death.

>>17828100
>Greeks and Romans did not practice cremation before the 6th century BC. Your point is retarded.
Holy shit you're a totally retarded kike cretin. Not that this has any relevance to the subject at hand, but cremation is not only well attested to in ancient Greece but is a huge part of the Iliad, where in book 23 Patroclus is cremated on a funeral pyre.

>>17828468
I assume this is a fetish of yours given the detail you chose to give in your description. However, we are discussing history here not fanfiction. Again, them practicing circumcision didn't make them kikes or jews or slaves. Otherwise it wouldn't have been a practice in the Egyptian aristocracy, completely defeating those 2 points. You failed to provide sources linking bronze age circumcision to slavery and you have yet to explain how the whole ekwesh, sherden and shekelesh armies were comprised of only slaves simply because they were circumcised. Were do Egyptian or Hittite records suggest sea people mercenaries were all slaves?

>>17828511
Homer’s work were written after the fact and the story changed multiple times to include modern cultural norms like cremation. The Bronze Age Mycenaeans DID NOT PRACTICE CREMATION FUCKFACE

>>17828572
>You failed to provide sources
Huh? Not the same guy. I'm just pointing out grown men who get peer pressured into having their genitals mutilated are emasculated bitches. When your boss, parents or teachers told you to get vaccinated you probably bent over and said
>stick it in me daddy, I need that sweet sweet conformity juice
>if you wanna record while you do it it's okay. Im wearing a mask, hehe

A bunch of so.yboys who went through a hazing ritual because they were bitchmade got shipped off to Egypt. No different than when redditors get shipped off to Ukraine to die pointlessly because they're easily manipulated into doing anything.

>>17828711
You want me to believe that some of the most feared and respected warriors of the late bronze age were emasculated basedboy slaves?

Youre seething and losing the plot. No one here is defending circumcision retard, we are just discussing how common it was in the Mycenaean period and why.

>>17828468
>>17828711
when you're having your gay circumcision fantasies do you often self insert in them?

>>17828671
the fact we have mykenaean palatial burials should be evidence enough of this.

>>17828798
plus, the whole of antigone play by sophocles, set in that period, speaks exclusively of inhumation and burial practices.

>>17828139
Royal family might be as it was foreign stock. Most Macedonians were of local Slavic stock