By who's authority did the Catholic Church change the 10 commandments that God write in stone with his own finger?

>>17827471 (OP)
God's Authority

>>17827471 (OP)
I imagine they would say by the authority of the Holy Spirit guiding the Church.

>>17827471 (OP)
catholics don't seriously use that fanfiction on the right do they? It's butchered all to hell.

>>17827471 (OP)
it's an interesting question but it does not detract from the fact that you can't spell for shit.
>who's

Protestants use Exodus 20.

Catholics use Deuteronomy 5.

Both are scriptural and correct.

>>17827502
Deuteronomy 5 in black
>Exodus 20 in green

7 “You shall have no other gods before[b] me.
>3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

8 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. ...
>4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. ...

11 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
>7“You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

12 “Observe the Sabbath day
>8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy

16 “Honor your father and your mother,
>12 “Honor your father and your mother

17 “You shall not murder.
>13 “You shall not murder.

18 “You shall not commit adultery.
>14 “You shall not commit adultery.

19 “You shall not steal.
>15 “You shall not steal.

20 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
>16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

21 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor’s house or land, his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
>17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

>>17827471 (OP)
They had to do away with number 2, otherwise their goddess worship in Mary, where they fall to their knees before statues of her, couldn't be pushed.

So many of these threads could be avoided if people only bothered to go to Catholic Answers @ catholic.com

>>17827471 (OP)
No one's authority. That image is a lie. They have the same text they just number them differently. For instance Catholics have the part about idols as the second sentence is number one. They are not actually numbered in the bible. That is just a convention. Of all the many things you could criticize the Catholic Church for this one is just wrong.
>>17827487
No, they don't.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-true-ten-commandments

>>17827511
We make it part of the first Commandment in line with ancient practice.

Peep the Handbook:
https://www.usccb.org/sites/default/files/flipbooks/catechism/518/index.html

>>17827515
And they repeatedly break number two, so what does it matter?

>>17827522
That was already a directive given by God to worship him alone. The Mary statues was something Catholics pulled entirely from their ass and used the Ark of the Covenant as an excuse. Nowhere does God say it's okay to """venerate""" carved idols in the likeness of anybody else, he was pretty clear.

>>17827523
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07636a.htm

https://www.catholic.com/tract/do-catholics-worship-statues

>>17827529
Idols were statues where a god physically resided. Paying respects to your brother through his picture or statue is ridiculously far from worship or idolatry.

>>17827529
Exodus 25:18-20
1st Chronicles 28:18-19
Ezekiel 41:17-18
Numbers 21:8-9
1st King 6:29-32
2nd Chronicles 3:7-14

>>17827542
TL;DR
God instructs his chosen to create graven images of cherubim for his temple and ark.

>>17827533
That's a false comparison, because you're not exalting your brother or another family member in your heart as somebody who's going to "pass along your prayers", your praying to God for them (unless you're a Catholic, then better pray to dead people).
>>17827542
Yeah...I'm not seeing Mary or anything else there, I'm seeing Cherubim, which I already said was ordained by God through an explicit directive, same with the bronze serpent.

Didn't Moses shatter the first tablets after seeing Israel worship the golden calf?

The ten commandments are in the Bible which Catholics are now graciously able to read themselves.

>>17827547
>which I already said

Not in this thread.

>>17827556
See:
>>17827529

>>17827547
>That's a false comparison
There is no comparison. That's my point. One is worship of other gods, the other is respecting my brothers and perhaps a request that they pray for me, which is an entirely biblical request.
>dead people
They are dead?

>>17827576
>which is an entirely biblical request.
It isn't, because the verse Catholics so willingly misinterpret
>“Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.”
Is practically nullified with their super cheat codes of asking sinless people in Heaven to pray for them. Why bother praying for each other on Earth to share our struggles and strengthen ourselves in the faith, when you have the Superwoman Virgin Mary readily available? Catholics trying to reconcile this with "Hey maaaaan, it's like, we're all in communion with each other and we can all pray, even saints", but they practically exalt Mary as the Queen of Heaven, so her prayers would already be on 10000000 steroids in effectiveness. It's practically a contradiction in itself that tries to get waved away with some handy mental gymnastics of inclusion, otherwise the whole belief collapses in on itself.

>>17827472
Proof?

>>17827471 (OP)
To further proof that all the statues they're full of are idols they remove the commandment against idols. If it weren't idols why bother removing the commandment?

>>17827597
>>request that they pray for me, which is an entirely biblical request.
>It isn't, because the verse Catholics so willingly misinterpret
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing... Paul asks people to pray for him on about 5 different occasions. Are you saying Catholics misinterpret all of those?
>her prayers would already be on 10000000 steroids in effectiveness
Sure. But communion isn't math. There are no cheat codes, there is God's divine Mercy and us praying for each other. That some pray better than other's isn't a contradiction.

>>17827613
Did Paul ask the saints in heaven to pray for him or other living people? That's the whole point of the verse. I'm not arguing not to pray for each other, I'm saying there are no shortcuts with any saint or relative "intercessors".
>Sure. But communion isn't math.
It is if your Catholic, because the more righteous the person, the more powerful the prayer, and what would the lovely Queen of Heaven be? Catholic line of thinking is that the closer to God a being is, the more powerful the prayer, and Mary has her own prayer and is basically at God's side in Catholic thought. Cut out the middle man and just rework the verse to say "Ask Mary to pray for you, because she's really powerful" instead of any redundancy of communion.

>>17827627
>Did Paul ask the saints in heaven to pray for him or other living people?
Living people. Just like the Saints are. Our God is the God of the living.
>>Sure. But communion isn't math.
>It is if your Catholic, because the more righteous the person, the more powerful the prayer
The closer you are to someone, the more valuable your opinion is to them. Doesn't make it math. It's relationship - there is no quantification and there are no cheat codes, it's how families work.
>Cut out the middle man
This would be the natural conclusion of what you're saying. But this is not the Catholic conclusion. So something you're saying does not represent Catholics.

>>17827645
>Living people. Just like the Saints are. Our God is the God of the living.
You're right in saying that nobody is truly dead with God, even people who have passed from this earth, but the point remains: If we who are currently separated from the kingdom of God and are not our highest selves (which basically is unblemished and wholly free with God in Heaven) are mired in sin, then we are to pray for each other in our communion of man and get closer to God in our struggles. Our struggles with and for each other are shared and the ones in Heaven no longer are shared in our mortal journey.
>The closer you are to someone, the more valuable your opinion is to them. Doesn't make it math. It's relationship - there is no quantification and there are no cheat codes, it's how families work.
Yet we don't go around making special prayers for our relatives in heaven, only Mary, right? Funny how all this talk of intercessors usually gets boiled down to rosaries and focus on Mary rather than Grandma. This is the warped Catholic doctrine both qualifying and excluding the idea of intercessors at the same time. As long as we exalt the right figure, we can kind of spread thin the rest of the idea, because what's really the point? She's "Queen of Heaven" she's already good enough.
>This would be the natural conclusion of what you're saying. But this is not the Catholic conclusion. So something you're saying does not represent Catholics.
Which wraps around to what I was saying about mental gymnastics of inclusion. Your drop in the puddle prayer in tandem with the steroid prayer of Mary is all well and good, but we both know who's in charge here to getting through to God. People in the Old Testament we're doing fine praying directly to God, why didn't they get directives to start asking Noah or Moses for themselves? Look at David and Solomon who returned Israel to God with their prayers solely from their own heart and no need for intercessors.

>>17827663
>then we are to pray for each other in our communion of man and get closer to God in our struggles
I completely agree. The only thing I disagree about is that this is in some way opposed to asking the Saints in heaven to pray for us too.
>Our struggles with and for each other are shared and the ones in Heaven no longer are shared in our mortal journey.
What conclusion do you draw from this? That since their soul is already purified their prayers are a different species from ours entirely? I'm not sure I understand the implications.
>Yet we don't go around making special prayers for our relatives in heaven, only Mary, right?
Yes we do.
>Your drop in the puddle prayer in tandem with the steroid prayer of Mary is all well and good, but we both know who's in charge here to getting through to God.
And we both know this isn't math. If you are filled with hopelessness when comparing your proximity to God with Mary, then your repentance is working, but to be discouraged from praying in comparison is an odd reaction desu.
>People in the Old Testament we're doing fine praying directly to God
Were they? An average believer periodically brought animals to the priests, didn't even really see the sacrifice and then went home. They were much more indirect about their worship than you or I are today as far as I read. God's elect few like David and Solomon excluding, obviously. I don't think either one of us compares to their situation.

>>17827693
>What conclusion do you draw from this? That since their soul is already purified their prayers are a different species from ours entirely? I'm not sure I understand the implications.
That they are removed from the search and struggle to become closer to God. They are complete and hence have no business any longer in man's struggle to come together and knit the threads that pulls us closer to God while we're here. The helping hand comes from God and the union of man, not anybody else.
>Yes we do.
Sounds like that should be a directive from the Catholic church, but is strangely absent with their own focus on Mary. There's far too much emphasis on Mary herself, even when throwing in relatives and other saints into the mix.
>And we both know this isn't math. If you are filled with hopelessness when comparing your proximity to God with Mary, then your repentance is working, but to be discouraged from praying in comparison is an odd reaction desu.
What hopelessness are you talking about? From my position? God loves all his children and we're all equally important to him. There are no proximity rules and boundaries when you come to him wholly in your heart. I'm saying that in having someone like Mary super charge your prayer, you're having her take you into deliverance, hence what I mean about "cheat codes". It goes from communion from the righteous, to outright goddess worship.

>>17827693
>Were they? An average believer periodically brought animals to the priests, didn't even really see the sacrifice and then went home. They were much more indirect about their worship than you or I are today as far as I read. God's elect few like David and Solomon excluding, obviously. I don't think either one of us compares to their situation.
You're talking about the guidelines of Mosaic Law, where before Christ the sacrifice of animals was required.
Leviticus 5:5–6:
>“When anyone becomes aware that they are guilty... they must confess in what way they have sinned. As a penalty... they must bring to the Lord a female lamb or goat from the flock...”
So, they were still praying regardless, it wasn't dumping some lamb at the altar and calling it a day. Just because the methods used for prayer were different, doesn't mean the intent and natures of the prayers were.

As for the "elect" of David and Solomon, you could argue they were "special", but everyone has a role to play and we're still all equal under God. Elect doesn't preclude the necessity of prayer. In fact, David and Solomon still regularly prayed to God for guidance.
Kings 3:7-9
>And now, O Lord my God, you have made your servant king in place of David my father, although I am but a little child. I do not know how to go out or come in. And your servant is in the midst of your people whom you have chosen, a great people, too many to be numbered or counted for multitude. Give your servant therefore an understanding mind to govern your people, that I may discern between good and evil, for who is able to govern this your great people?”
And God became pleased by Solomon praying to him, even when he was the "elect" as you said. There was no need for intercessors and God answered Solomon tenfold.

>>17827774
>They are complete and hence have no business any longer in man's struggle to come together
Says who? We are all part of the Church, we all pray for each other. That some of us have passed the test should put them beyond communion with us?
>The helping hand comes from God
And yet we should pray for each other.
>Sounds like that should be a directive from the Catholic church
I don't know about their directives but your problem isn't really with their handbooks, it's with the idea that departed saints are included in our community, right?
>There's far too much emphasis on Mary herself
Was anyone else selected to bear God?
>What hopelessness are you talking about?
Yes, you expressed that your prayer would be a drop in the puddle and that Mary would be "in charge". That sounds incredibly discouraged, which is an odd reaction to being offered help from a saint.
>It goes from communion from the righteous, to outright goddess worship.
She is not worshipped.

>>17827789
>Says who? We are all part of the Church, we all pray for each other. That some of us have passed the test should put them beyond communion with us?
Yes, it should put them beyond communion with us in the nature of prayers. The unity of man in the journey to God is us and us alone.
>And yet we should pray for each other.
What do you think I meant by "unity of man"? Why did you cut that part out?
>I don't know about their directives but your problem isn't really with their handbooks, it's with the idea that departed saints are included in our community, right?
It's the same thing, because their directives are for saint intercessors.
>Was anyone else selected to bear God?
There are verses that deliberately downplay Mary's exaltation from Jesus Christ himself.
Matthew 12:46–50:
>“While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, ‘Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.’ He replied to him, ‘Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?’ Pointing to his disciples, he said, ‘Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.’”
Luke 11:27–28:
>“As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, ‘Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you!’ He replied, ‘Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.’”
Mary had her role to play, just like everybody who came before and after her. She wasn't granted a special position of "Queen of Heaven", because Jesus himself is telling us we're all equal in his word.
>Yes, you expressed that your prayer would be a drop in the puddle and that Mary would be "in charge". That sounds incredibly discouraged, which is an odd reaction to being offered help from a saint.
I was following the Catholic line of thought, not what I believe.
>She is not worshipped.
She is, and I'm tired of pretending she isn't.

>>17827806
>Yes, it should put them beyond communion with us in the nature of prayers. The unity of man in the journey to God is us and us alone.
Why? Who is "us" and why are saints, people who are in the presence of Unity and Oneness itself, somehow beyond unity of man?
>There are verses that deliberately downplay Mary's exaltation from Jesus Christ himself.
I suppose so. There are also verses that deliberately downplay the power of human action and humans in general. It seems to be a separate issue from who should pray for whom.
>I was following the Catholic line of thought, not what I believe.
So just to be clear, you would not be discouraged by knowing that Mary's prayers are purer than yours, yes? You would cheer that you are offered help from a saint...
>>She is not worshipped.
>She is
How are we serving her?

>>17827472
No.
Cuckolic are the niggers of the world.

>>17827815
>Why? Who is "us" and why are saints, people who are in the presence of Unity and Oneness itself, somehow beyond unity of man?
Think of it as men and women slogging it out in the mud together and using their combined power to battle enemies (which would be Evil) while they try to get to God through the mud. It'd be cheating to look up and ask people not in the mud to help out in the battle, because the struggle is no longer theirs. Probably not the best analogy, but it might be apt for my argument. Through struggle and cooperation we get stronger.
>I suppose so. There are also verses that deliberately downplay the power of human action and humans in general. It seems to be a separate issue from who should pray for whom
Not exactly separate, because Catholic doctrines consider Mary "blessed" and a "Queen". If you can't believe Jesus telling you yourself that we're all equal in the word and following God, then why would you believe the church?
>So just to be clear, you would not be discouraged by knowing that Mary's prayers are purer than yours, yes? You would cheer that you are offered help from a saint...
It's a moot point, because I don't and have never prayed to Mary, and I don't believe prayers asking for her intercessor do anything in the first place. That's the trouble with Catholicism - they're offering prayers to figures that are in no position to do anything about them.
>How are we serving her?
Kneeling before statues offering prayers before her (idolatry), concocting special prayers that really should be directly to God, putting emphasis on "spiritual apparitions from Mary herself" that give prophecies, etc etc. Tired of the "veneration" argument, Mary might as well be the God of Catholics with all the importance they throw at her feet.

>>17827833
>It'd be cheating to look up and ask people not in the mud to help out in the battle, because the struggle is no longer theirs.
It would be cheating if it were against the rules. If it weren't and you still refused to do it, it would just be a counter-productive strategy. The idea of praying for each other isn't about romanticizing the struggle. It's about communion. About multiple becoming one the same way three persons of God are one. And struggle plays a great role in attaining this communion, but that's not to say that the saints are cut off from us.
>If you can't believe Jesus telling you yourself that we're all equal in the word and following God
We're all equal following God? So there are no saints in general? Surely I'm just not understanding you right...
>It's a moot point
It's important in my eyes so please let me know - you would not be discouraged by knowing that Mary's prayers are purer than yours, yes? You would cheer that you are offered help from a saint...
>>How are we serving her?
>Kneeling before statues offering prayers before her (idolatry)
Kneeling isn't serving. Otherwise Jacob served and worshipped Esau when falling on his knees and face, bowing to him.
Idolatry means trapping a deity in a carved statue and then communing with it. It's not just prayer.
>putting emphasis on "spiritual apparitions from Mary herself" that give prophecies
I don't understand, how is that serving her...? What commandments of hers am I carrying out?
> Tired of the "veneration" argument
Well, you'll have to endure it until you can tell worship apart from veneration. And if you intend to worship God instead of merely venerating Him, that's something you will have to find sooner or later.

>>17827862
>It would be cheating if it were against the rules. If it weren't and you still refused to do it, it would just be a counter-productive strategy. The idea of praying for each other isn't about romanticizing the struggle. It's about communion. About multiple becoming one the same way three persons of God are one. And struggle plays a great role in attaining this communion, but that's not to say that the saints are cut off from us.
"Against the rules" when there are zero rules for intercessors in the first place. I already gave my arguments on intercessors not being needed for prayer in the first place, so what rules are in place?
>We're all equal following God? So there are no saints in general? Surely I'm just not understanding you right...
Being a saint doesn't mean "Alright guys, line up in formation and get to the call center to start telephoning the prayers". Biblical canon has saints as a point of reference to the stories, just like Noah just like Moses just like Joshua just like Samuel etc etc. All have the roles to play and all had God working through them, just as he works through us. We're all blessed in the word. I see you're deliberately side stepping "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.". Again, if you can't believe what Jesus is saying, then why would you believe the church?
>It's important in my eyes so please let me know - you would not be discouraged by knowing that Mary's prayers are purer than yours, yes? You would cheer that you are offered help from a saint...
Basically saying "You would be cheered up for a prayer that would go into the void". Let me tell you something, because I've had prayers answered with concise and clear delivery and I've not once prayed to a saint or felt the need to. So, no, I don't care for le mommy Mary prayers being more powerful than mine, because they've never served me in the first place, just God.

>>17827862
>Idolatry means trapping a deity in a carved statue and then communing with it. It's not just prayer.
"Trapping a deity", I didn't realize we understood idolatry to mean Wiccan soul trapping or something. Idolatry is worshiping a figure that would be seen in the eyes of their Gods. When a Catholic kneels before Mary, their eyes on her and they open their spirits to try to bare it before the idol, which in this case is Mary 100 percent. There's no two ways about it.
>I don't understand, how is that serving her...? What commandments of hers am I carrying out?
By giving Catholic fanfiction precedence over God himself wanting the apparition to be known it was him. "Our Lady of Good Success" has Mary taking the reigns and making herself an authoritative figure, rather than the past precedent of either God or his messengers making the clear intent that it was all from him.
>Well, you'll have to endure it until you can tell worship apart from veneration. And if you intend to worship God instead of merely venerating Him, that's something you will have to find sooner or later.
I don't really have to endure anything, because I'm not mired in false "veneration" (we really mean worship here) of figures of Goddess worship. That's more on you to try to break out of it.

>>17827878
>"Against the rules" ... what rules are in place?
Praying for each other is biblical, saints are alive.
>Being a saint doesn't mean ... telephoning the prayers
>a point of reference to the stories, just like Noah just like Moses just like Joshua just like Samuel etc etc.
Moses made requests to God on behalf of Israelites. So does Samuel. So does Abraham. I'm not sure what you meant by "all equal following God" but there are very clearly people who are closer to Him and people who aren't.
>a prayer that would go into the void
See, this is exactly the discouraged response that I find absolutely incredible. In the actual sense of the word. I am happy your prayers work for you, but to do anything but cheer at the idea that people close to God are talking to Him about you might be a spiritual problem.

>>17827887
>I didn't realize we understood idolatry to mean Wiccan soul trapping or something
I'm not sure about Wiccans but idolatry in the Middle East refers to precisely this practice that is well documented in Canaanite pagan texts. A deity was tricked or summoned into an idol and then communed with, negotiated with or otherwise put to use while also being worshipped - meaning served.
I have yet to see a Catholic who thinks that Mary is trapped in the statue of Mary. I have yet to hear a Catholic proclaim he is serving Mary. And I have yet to hear any religion ever saying that worship is opening your heart bare to someone, lest half the psychotherapeutic sessions would be worship.
>By giving Catholic fanfiction precedence over God himself
Which doesn't happen.
>I'm not mired in false "veneration"
Or are you? You just described veneration and intimacy as though it was worship.

>>17827529
No one is "venerating" the images themselves.

>>17827597
Touch grass and stop making up things to get mad at.

>>17827502
>>17827510
So which one gives an exact quote of what was on Moses's tablets? Is it neither? Pretty weird time to resort to paraphrase.

>>17827627
>I'm saying there are no shortcuts with any saint
No Catholic believes this is a "shortcut".

>>17827973
There are 14 statements and no numbering was on the tablets. So putting them into 10 commandments takes some editing on the part of the reader.

>>17827973
Why is it weird? Is it a question of salvation whether it said "remember the Sabbath" or "observe the Sabbath"?

>>17827908
>Moses made requests to God on behalf of Israelites. So does Samuel. So does Abraham. I'm not sure what you meant by "all equal following God" but there are very clearly people who are closer to Him and people who aren't.
Must. Ignore. What. Jesus. Said
This is your brain on Catholicism
>See, this is exactly the discouraged response that I find absolutely incredible. In the actual sense of the word. I am happy your prayers work for you, but to do anything but cheer at the idea that people close to God are talking to Him about you might be a spiritual problem.
I want people to pray to God alone, especially when they pray for others. My problem doesn't stem from "I don't want people to be helped", my problem stems from people practicing false things that deliberately shit all over the Bible. Pagan practices involved the use of goddess worship, and making Mary a focal point is the exact same thing, no matter how many times you tell yourself
"It's just veneration when place her as a Queen of Heaven. It's just veneration when we ignore Jesus's own rebukes to not paint Mary as someone who should be exalted in the manner we place her in. It's just veneration when we erect statues in her figure.". The Catholic church has literally got people to indulge in Paganism and said "This is right and good". It's sick.

>>17828017
>rebukes
Protestants can't read, nowhere does Jesus "REBUKE" Mary. It takes a tortured reading of the Marian passages to reach that absurd conclusion.

>>17828024
READ, NIGGA, READ
Matthew 12:46–50:
>“While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, ‘Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.’ He replied to him, ‘Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?’ Pointing to his disciples, he said, ‘Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.’”
Luke 11:27–28:
>“As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, ‘Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you!’ He replied, ‘Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.’”

>>17828039
Not a rebuke.

>>17828040
No, of course not, Jesus simply diverted Mary being exalted by including everyone with blessings. Truly, she is the Queen of Heaven

>>17828017
I'm not Catholic. You made a point about how holiness doesn't imply telephone and you listed examples of people who played the telephone with requests to God. Are we abandoning this point entirely?
>goddess worship, and making Mary a focal point is the exact same thing
I don't mean to be offensive but it seems you aren't quite sure what it is exactly that makes the approach to Mary amount to worship. One second it's kneeling, then it's spirit laid bare, then it's making her the focal point, then it's that she's blessed... I think I sort of get where you're coming from in sentiment, but it is only a sentiment and I'm sure you can understand that I'm not going to abandon a historically and practically attested tradition just because its sentiment doesn't sit with you...
Let me put it this way - when I pray I usually start by a request to Mary to pray for me and I thank her for birthing Jesus. This takes about 8 seconds. Are those 8 seconds somehow the focal point of my prayer life?

I have recently been looking into the Quran and how it relates to previous scriptures in order to better argue for the Quranic dilemma. The Quran doesn't say that the previous scriptures were corrupted according to the early tafsirs but talks about misinterpretation. This looks like an example of this. The strongest argument for textual corruption of the torah is a hadith in al bukkari that explicitly talks about corruption.

>>17827999
It's weird because I can't think of any reason not to quote the tablets verbatim unless a writer didn't know what they said verbatim.

>Is it a question of salvation whether it said "remember the Sabbath" or "observe the Sabbath"?
No, but consider the two lists give different reasons for observing the Sabbath.
Exodus
>For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Deuteronomy
>Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.
So it's not like there's difference in meaning between the two. And when you think about it, one of those reasons could apply to everyone in the world but the other would apply to only Israelites, since not everyone was brought out of Egypt. You might still consider that unimportant but I just want to know which one was on the tablets, or was it both or neither?

>>17828070
>not like there's difference in meaning
*no difference

>>17828049
>but it is only a sentiment and I'm sure you can understand that I'm not going to abandon a historically and practically attested tradition just because its sentiment doesn't sit with you
Equating historicity with validity makes zero sense. You can only stretch the line of credibility of "Well, Jesus started the church" to hand wave everything that it's devolved into so far.
>Let me put it this way - when I pray I usually start by a request to Mary to pray for me and I thank her for birthing Jesus. This takes about 8 seconds. Are those 8 seconds somehow the focal point of my prayer life?
The whole point of your prayer is to have you carried by Mary, the rest of it is irrelevant. Whether you realize it or not, all you're doing is ceding authority to a false prayer recipient, when you could easily just do it to God alone. Mary won't help you and God would want you to pray to him alone.

>>17828070
>It's weird because I can't think of any reason not to quote the tablets verbatim unless a writer didn't know what they said verbatim.
I can - not considering verbatim quotes to be necessary.
>No, but consider the two lists give different reasons for observing the Sabbath.
That is a fair point, the two books are written in fairly different styles so I would probably ascribe it to that.
>the other would apply to only Israelites
The law is for Isrealites so that's a difference without a difference, I would say.

>>17828075
I'll take it as "yes we're ignoring that saints did play telephone in the OT".
>Whether you realize it or not, all you're doing is ceding authority to a false prayer recipient, when you could easily just do it to God alone.
So are those 8 seconds somehow the focal point of my prayer life?

>>17828075
>The whole point of your prayer is to have you carried by Mary,
Oh god, we get it, you hate women.

>>17828087
>I'll take it as "yes we're ignoring that saints did play telephone in the OT".
I ignored it because it was stupid. They interceded on behalf of their people while they were still alive, they didn't start crying for Noah while he was in Heaven to pray to God for them.
>So are those 8 seconds somehow the focal point of my prayer life?
Mary is the bread and butter of your prayer, you want to play word games and semantics with "See, I'm not really falling down and kissing her feet". Mary won't save you and you're engaging in Goddess worship, just like the Satanic church wants you to.
>>17828095
I don't like doing the bidding of satanic idiots.

>>17828099
>They interceded on behalf of their people while they were still alive
That was what we were discussing - how holiness works in general. So you don't have any problem with the idea that while alive our prayers should be 'telephoned'?
>you're engaging in Goddess worship
So your answer is "yes, the 8 seconds daily are the focal point of your prayer life"? Anon, you have to see how this is completely insane. Would you be happier if I spent my whole prayer session praying to Mary and only spent 8 seconds on God? Maybe then he would become the focal point lol

It's not really about semantics, since you have never given an actual definition... it's about how far you're willing to exaggerate.

>>17827471 (OP)
These are rules for the Israelites and there's no Biblical justification for gentiles to follow them

>>17828099
>they didn't start crying for Noah while he was in Heaven to pray to God for them.

Luke 16:24

>>17828099
>I don't like doing the bidding of satanic idiots.
You prots have such a massive inferiority complex when you compare yourself to the One True Catholic and Apostolic Church of the Creed.

>>17828119
>That was what we were discussing - how holiness works in general. So you don't have any problem with the idea that while alive our prayers should be 'telephoned'?
We're just going around in circles. The point is that the saints were dealing with God directly while they were alive, and this was before Jesus Christ arrived to be a true mediator to the people. Necessity required God to make himself know to the people and required an intermediary, it doesn't immediately qualify the saint intercessions in heaven.
>So your answer is "yes, the 8 seconds daily are the focal point of your prayer life"? Anon, you have to see how this is completely insane. Would you be happier if I spent my whole prayer session praying to Mary and only spent 8 seconds on God? Maybe then he would become the focal point lol
Your prayer is being handed off to Mary so she can hand it off to God, that's the focal point. You wanted to argue that "it's not a cheat code" and "we can ask our relatives" to pray for us, but you've already immediately ceded authority to Mary, and why? Because you've wholly accepted what I've been arguing this whole thread - the communion of prayer is a redundant belief in Catholic thinking and Mary is the superwoman goddess you've all accepted her to be. I guarantee you right now every Catholic that graces this thread defers to Mary the most and everything else is just an excuse to prop up up her to a truly exalted position. You want to call it veneration, but it's clear she's pretty much the number one go to in all aspects of your prayers.
>>17828222
Which entails what? A parable spoken by Jesus about a man who's already dead crying out for salvation, and not receiving it regardless because he didn't truly repent? What does that have to do with saint intercession?
>>17828224
Your church got corrupted, I'm so sorry. I wish it wasn't the case, but it seems like inevitably in action.

>>17828317
>Which entails what?
Get Hooked on Phonics and learn to read.

>>17828317
>Your prayer is being handed off to Mary
Just like Paul's prayers were "being handed off" to Romans.
I can hear you typing "but Romans were alive" and I thank you for this point, make sure to also type how come prayers are automatically hijacked by saints in heaven the moment we ask them for help, but saints in here don't seem to be "handed off" prayers?
> "we can ask our relatives"
Yes.
>the communion of prayer is a redundant belief in Catholic thinking
Not according to Catholics. Again, if you're coming to different conclusions, it's not because you're smarter than centuries of theologians and philosophers. It's because you missed something. Merely re-iterating your claims while dodging questions will not be convincing.

Look, I completely get where you're coming from emotionally. Catholic art definitely goes overboard. But emotionally doubling down on your assertions is obviously dysfunctional. You can claim that whenever I say "Mary, tell Jesus I'm trying" all my prayers from the preceding 24 hours are re-assigned from God to her, but it just makes no damn sense.

>>17828347
>Abraham was a le saint right? That means this totally applies here!
Take your own advice
>>17828356
>Yes.
Which takes a back seat for your goddess Mary. It doesn't matter how many times you tell yourself "Well, the option is always open" you'll go straight to Mary and do as the pagans and other satanists do who want the matriarchal feminine to supersede the almighty Father. All Catholics do is deceive themselves with other saints and even their own relatives just being an accessory to run cover for the Big M. She's the big Kahuna and what will always be defaulted to, it doesn't matter.
>Not according to Catholics. Again, if you're coming to different conclusions, it's not because you're smarter than centuries of theologians and philosophers. It's because you missed something. Merely re-iterating your claims while dodging questions will not be convincing.
Appeal to authority, it's irrelevant. For every "theologian" you want to cite, there's another who will say the same things I'm saying. Both you and I aren't pretending to be theologian experts, so let's forgo that argument and just settle for honest discourse.
>Look, I completely get where you're coming from emotionally. Catholic art definitely goes overboard. But emotionally doubling down on your assertions is obviously dysfunctional. You can claim that whenever I say "Mary, tell Jesus I'm trying" all my prayers from the preceding 24 hours are re-assigned from God to her, but it just makes no damn sense.
I'm not trying to paint Mary in a bad light because of some personal dislike, I'm disliking and trying to expose the way she's used. It has nothing to do with Mary and the other saints themselves, they're fine, it's the way people have been deceived into a disgusting practice that works to undermine God.

We should pray for each other directly to God, because he'll help us and would want us to reach righteousness for the power of our prayers through cooperation while we're alive.

>>17828500
>>emotionally doubling down on your assertions is obviously dysfunctional
>[emotionally doubling down on his assertions]
Ok.
>For every "theologian" you want to cite, there's another who will say the same things I'm saying.
Ok show me one saying "Mary pray for me" is automatically the focal point of one's prayer life.
>We should pray for each other directly to God
Including Mary.
>while we're alive
As are the saints in heaven.

>>17828518
Basically what it boils down to is that you can't even recognize that you yourself opted to go straight to the Virgin Mary for your prayers and I'm pretty much at the point where I don't even doubt that you don't even ask your other relatives that are in heaven or any of the other saints for intercession. What the Catholic church teaches is that Mary is the only one that matters and that's what gets filled in believers heads, and the rest is just to prop it up so scrutiny doesn't fall upon the practice.

The holy feminine gets propped up, because Satan and his gaggle of other spurned faggots know the Father wants nothing to do with them and are looking to worship something else for their salvation. Mary isn't going to save anybody, not you and certainly not them. I hope one day you can unshackle yourself from this great lie and embrace God wholly one day. God bless.

>>17828584
>Catholic church teaches is that Mary is the only one that matters
You're factually wrong but at this point I see your emotions are closer to you than your senses. Thanks for the discussion, but guess what ... *saint Anthony, pray for this discussion to bear fruit*... this discussion just got handed out. You didn't even ever have this discussion, it's not yours anymore. I don't think that's how it works but apparently it is?
Just fooling around, have a great day my man.

>>17827474
>By the authority of the convenient thing we made up guiding the other convenient thing we made up
Christianity is first and foremost a religion of made up convenient things. Truth is at best nowhere to be found or at worst actively buried and obfuscated.

>>17828087
>not considering verbatim quotes to be necessary.
When recording the commandments of God literally written in stone? idk seems weird to me.

>>17827472
>God, being flawed, made a mistake and had to correct his own commandments
Catholic logic

>>17827969
>Noo I'm not an idol worshipper I'm an ... uhh ... "Idol VENERATOR!"
>Uhm eggshually I don't venerate the idol, I'm venerating the ESSENCE of the idol (or some dumb shit like that)
Mary worshipper keep sliding down the slippery slope of cope

>>17827471 (OP)
Who cares? The laws given to the jews for their exile have dubious relevance under the new covenant.

>>17827523
Exodus. Deuteronomy is Moses' preaching.
>And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them &c. (Deuteronomy 5:1)
>And God spake all these words, saying &c. (Exodus 20:1)