It is impossible to explain the trinity without copping out to “god works in mysterious ways”

>how many times does it say in the Bible to worship god and god alone
>all prophets are referred to as “sons” of god in a metaphorical context
>get away from me, I never you

>>17830343 (OP)
Isn't God supposed to be completely different and separated from the creation in Islam? Trinity makes sense in this framework (nothing in creation is a Trinity).

>>17830343 (OP)
Better to understand it
>We are all the Son of God
>We are all part of the Holy Spirit and God the Father, too.
Sorry if it ruffles the orthodox and heterodox feathers but it’s the objective metaphysical truth.

>>17830343 (OP)
>It is impossible to explain
The one true God, the one created in Christ, the unification of spirit within son joined to father with one will

never make this gay thread again

>>17830351
Nice fuckins self-deification. These are the lows Christians are willing to go to.

>>17830349
Yes he is nothing like the creation at all, but it is emphasized in all our books that he is one and one alone. Jesus PBUH never preached the trinity, and if his divinity comes from the fact that he was conceived without a father then shouldn’t Adam fall into that same category?

>>17830359
Jesus literally said we in him and he is in us, and we are all sons of God. He said it verbatim . What else does he mean?

>>17830355
>The one true God
>created

Are you feeling okay Christ-bros?

>>17830363
Well. Maybe it was an invented saying from decaades after he was long dead? Or maybe this retard taught self-deification? Who knows.

>>17830360
Notice how Tawhid is specifically teaching to not associate partners with Allah. Because the pagans of Mecca believed in Allah AS WELL AS other deities. That's because this religion is constructed from a point of view of a 7th century Arab trader turned warlord.

>get away from me, I never you
saaaaarrrrrr

>>17830366
The one true God, the one united in Christ, the unification of spirit within son joined to father with one will

better, faggot?

>>17830382
Just let me know your view of Filioque too. Just so I know how this deity of you works exactly.

>>17830343 (OP)
I'm just not going to listen to Pakistani conmen lmao

>>17830343 (OP)
>It is impossible to explain the trinity without copping out to “god works in mysterious ways”
It is impossible to explain any mystery of God, period. How does God transcend time and space? You will not tell me. Because all our terms are based on structures in time and space. To lament that the biggest mystery of them all doesn't lend itself to current human understanding when you can barely even scratch the surface of how angels work is peak dishonesty.

>worship god and god alone
Sure. The triune God.
>"sons" of god in a metaphorical context
Not really, Job lists sons of God in a pretty direct context. It's just that among all sons one is THE Son just like among all lords one is THE Lord.

>>17830360
Sure he did. He said that the Father, Son and Spirit have the same name.

>>17830407
>Sure he did. He said that the Father, Son and Spirit have the same name.
And this name is YAHWEH THE BRONZE AGE STORM DEITY!

And also your deity used to poop lol. Maybe his glorified eternal body poops too. Hahahahaha

>>17830392
Jesus had no children, there is no "special" strain of the "spirit" with the right to rule the rest of God's people. The point is mute anyways, the kings of Europe no longer pretend at being his descendants anyways.

>>17830412
Imagine hating the human body this much. With capslock and emotional outbursts. Shame.

>>17830414
Just remember what happens if you got this wrong. TICK TOCK.

>>17830422
Isn't my body full of corruption and evil desires since the fall. Which... What was the fall exactly? Don't tell me it was the Adam and Eve story. That's just too naive.

>>17830430
Since the fall? Of course. The whole universe is full of sin since the fall. Are you now going to lament its existence?
>What was the fall exactly? And don't tell me about the fall.
Humans alienating themselves from God.

>>17830407
>among all lords
Polytheist detected, opinion discarded

>>17830378
>the pagans of Mecca believed in allah as well as other deities

Yeah, and Islam was god coming down and telling them to worship god and god alone. The Muslims got that message, Christians are still over here worshipping his prophet and Holy Spirit as his equal.

>>17830434
Sure thing. Make your religion sound as far from ancient Israelite mythology as possible. Make it deeply philosophical. Maybe steal some cool ideas from the Greeks.

>>17830435
Make sure to discard the Bible too I suppose.

>>17830442
>tell it to me without the narratives
>nooo you made it sound far from the narratives
Ahahaha is that all or do you have another question?

>>17830447
Hello Jordan Peterson. You sound like Kermit the frog.

>>17830435
All Israelites used to be polytheist until I believe like the 6th century BCE. That's why a lot of Biblical language is polytheistic (or more specifically henotheistic).

>>17830452
Sounds like a no. But hey, just five years ago the pic of YHWH and Ashera would grind some serious gears. You almost made it.

>>17830379
basterd bich

>>17830461
Must feel uncomfortable that you pray (or talk and talk in your mind) to an amalgamation of Yahweh and El from some Middle Eastern myths. What a sad sad situation.

>>17830343 (OP)
>how many times does it say in the Bible to worship god and god alone
you're confounding "being" with "person". Genesis 1:26
>26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness, to rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, and over all the earth itselfd and every creature that crawls upon it.”
Note that The Old Testament is devoid of the Royal We, because that figure of speech was only popularized in the early modern era.
Who is God speaking about when speaking in plural form, then? Pro tip : It's His persons.
>all prophets are referred to as “sons” of god in a metaphorical context
no they're not. They're referred to by a multitude of titles, the most proeminent of which is "Son of Man", which means "Son of Adam" when literlly translated. Interestingly, Jesus is referred as both "Son of Man" and "Son of God", lending credence to the Chalcedonian Creed that He was fully Man and Fully God.
>get away from me, I never knew* you
in that passage, Jesus uses the title of LORD to refer to Himself. He assumes not only the position of judge over Mankind, when no one is Good but God, but also the title of God, assuming His divinity.

>>17830469
Like I said, only five years too late. But by all means, be sad.

>>17830473
>Who is God speaking about when speaking in plural form, then? Pro tip : It's His persons.
It was probably an assemble of gods (El, Yaheh, Asherah, maybe even Baal) originally. And they forgor to change it when redacting the text.

>>17830425
>what happens if you got this wrong
Unfortunately I know exactly what it means to ascend to God's side in that high heaven, and what it means to be cast into outer dark. Eternity is the province of God, and there is but the one.

>>17830475
What happened 5 years ago that made the religious scholarship on Abrahamic origins wrong?

>>17830478
>has to make up a fanfiction to explain it away
cope and seethe

>>17830445
I follow the Quran, it tells us to follow Abraham, the upright one. He was no idolater
>>17830456
The Israelites who disobeyed their lord’s command to follow god and god alone. All the prophets preach the exact same message, saying polytheism is ok because some of the retard followers who went astray did it is retarded. Should I sacrifice my children to ba’Al too because some of them did? Or should I crush the heads of the baby descendants of Amalek with a stone because they do too?

>>17830497
Okay I won't argue with you. Let's crush Christians together. Just keepo in mind your religion is also a product of myth evoluton like all faiths.

>>17830486
I think around 5 years ago the scholarly research still wasn't widespread enough so whenever you pasted the image on this board it would trigger massive coping because of the possible implications. Since then it seems that most readers either got desensitized or actually read the research and the methods employed in the various scholarly works.

The methods expect to find antropologically evolutional patterns and so that's what they find. If it weren't for scripture, archeologists would believe that still in the 5th century BC YHWH worship was polutheistic, despite half the books of the Torah already firmly claiming monotheism. Said simply, people realized that seeing polytheism in YHWH worship is exactly what we would expect to find archeologically and exactly what scholarly research would consider the most natural conclusion in pretty much 99% of cases.

Though if you're keeping up with the research, you will no doubt find newer articles and studies that leap to suggestive conclusions. You are keeping up, aren't you?

>>17830497
>I follow the Quran, it tells us to follow Abraham, the upright one. He was no idolater
And what do you know of Abraham? You know what a warlord heard from some spirit. And we know for a fact some of those things were wrong, for example Mary being considered divine or part of the godhead.

>>17830502
Here. Print it and wear it. You fell for a Semitic tribal god of thunder, human worship and some really strange ghost worship. ALL AT ONCE buhahahaha

>>17830520
I'll take that as a no.

>>17830343 (OP)
>It is impossible to explain the trinity without copping out to “god works in mysterious ways”
1 essence
3 persons

Simple.

>>how many times does it say in the Bible to worship god and god alone
Which we do.
>all prophets are referred to as “sons” of god in a metaphorical context
They absolutely aren't. And being called "son" in a metaphorical way doesn't impede God from using it in a literal sense when it is the case.

>>17830343 (OP)
When the basedence can explain the physical universe without resorting to it being 96% invisible magic, I will listen to what it has to say about the contradictory nature about my 33% invisible God.

>>17830506
Nowhere does it say in the Quran that Mary is divine or part of the “godhead” whatever that means. She was a chaste woman and the pure vessel through which god created Jesus.
> You know what a warlord heard from some spirit
I know the literal word of God, transmitted through Gabriel to Muhammad PBUH. It’s interesting you use the term warlord when Christianity is historically the much more violent religion. Sure, Jesus was a lover not a fighter, but the nations who claim to follow him have committed indisputable atrocities in his name. Crusaders were Christian killing cannibals, Muhammad and his followers fought against those who tortured and killed them and drove them out of their own land, the people of quraysh used to bury baby girls alive, it’s just to go to war with people like that. You don’t really have moral ground to stand on here. As for the implication that revelation came from any other than the one true god, where is your proof? We as Muslims start off every prayer with “I seek refuge in god, from satan, the accursed one”. What malevolent spirit comes to a person who actively rebukes it? Would a malevolent spirit come to a man and tell him to give women rights to inheritance, divorce, etc, to unite all the tribes that were in a state of perpetual warfare before him, to worship god alone, and to respect all of god’s messengers?

>inb4 aisha
No Christian ever said Islam was wrong on the basis of Aisha’s (PBUH) age before the industrial age because that was normal for all of human history up to 100 years ago. Thomas Aquinas said it’s okay to arrange marriage with a gril as young as age 7.

>>17830577
>>17830473
>we believe in one God
>but he’s 3 people
Do you hear yourself?

>>17830645
>Nowhere does it say in the Quran that Mary is divine or part of the “godhead”
What I was saying is that the Quran falsesly says this was believed.
> Surah Al-Ma’idah (5:116):
>“And [beware] the Day when Allah will say, ‘O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, "Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?"’ He will say, ‘Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right.’”
This is false. Mary was never proposed to be a deity.

>I know the literal word of God,
>transmitted through Gabriel
>to Muhammad
So a warlord told you a spirit told him. It really boils down to this.

>you use the term warlord when Christianity is historically the much more violent religion
Warlord refers to a person. In Christianity, Christ was not a warlord whatsoever. Those are my grounds.

>As for the implication that revelation came from any other than the one true god, where is your proof?
In the fact that it contains a falsehood as shown above. In the fact that it reads like a simplified version of Christian theology. In the fact that we can trace its influences to simplified Christian sects. In the fact Muhammad himself wondered if he was demon-posessed when communing with the spirit, which doesn't happen when the spirit is from God of peace (Surah Al-‘Alaq 96:1–5).
>What malevolent spirit comes to a person who actively rebukes it?
Every single one of them. Drunkards rebuke the spirit of addiction every day and conclude the day with a drink.
>Would a malevolent spirit come to a man and tell him to give women rights to inheritance, divorce, etc, to unite all the tribes that were in a state of perpetual warfare before him, to worship god alone, and to respect all of god’s messengers?
Yes.

>>17830645
Wait a minute, you don't believe two or more people can be one or more Thing ?
Genesis 2:24
>24For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
How many person in one flesh?

>>17830667
>“And [beware] the Day when Allah will say, ‘O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, "Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?"’ He will say, ‘Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right.’”

Don’t catholics have “the skull of the mother Mary” enshrined in the basilica of Saint-Maximin-la-Sainte-Baume and they go there to commemorate/worship it? Virgin Mary idol worship is all over the place dude that’s clearly what it’s referring to here. Crosses, crucifixes, Virgin Mary statues/paintings, all idol worship, all explicitly forbidden in all our books.

> In the fact that it contains a falsehood as shown above. In the fact that it reads like a simplified version of Christian theology. In the fact that we can trace its influences to simplified Christian sects.

Or maybe when the council of Nicaea gathered and said “this is Christianity” they actually left out some stuff that was true and added some stuff that was false and Muhammad was sent to correct this so we wouldn’t all be led astray.

Christ was not a warlord yes I agree PBUH

>yes
Wouldn’t it make more sense that a malevolent spirit would promote degeneracy and debauchery? Why would satan come to me and tell me to worship god? I thought satan deceived people into going astray from god and following him?

>>17830669
Dude you’re quoting the Bible to a Muslim. Your book is chock full of contradictions, mine isn’t. And as you can see above what people may perceive as contradictory are simply their own misunderstandings

>>17830577
If the trinity is one essence

How was your god able to forsake Christ during the crucifixion?

>>17830695
>mine isn’t
why did Allah make a rule about allowing mariage with your adopted son's wife if he abolished adoption afterward?

>>17830699
It must have something to do with the plurality of elohim being changed to Eloi.

>>17830699
Because Jesus the Man suffered and experienced the crucifixion and the weight of Mankind's sin, Jesus the Son experienced it but did not suffer it.
For once, there was a disconnect in the sinless life of Jesus that something sullied Him, the combined suffering of the world, without sullying His divine substance - because it is unsulliable by definition.

>>17830695
>commemorate/worship it?
Which one is it? If commemoration and veneration is worship then Catholics have literally everyone in the religion as a deity. Which is obviously not true. But be that as it may, nobody ever proposed that Mary is a deity. You would expect this description if it were words of an uneducated warlord, not an all-knowing God who can tell apart who is proposed to be a deity and who isn't.

>Or maybe ... they actually left out some stuff
Or maybe not. I didn't say Islam reads like a different version of Christianity (with something removed and something added). It reads, in every single concept. like a simplified and lower resolution bootleg of Christianity. Like someone had cursory knowledge of things and tried to make their own version. I've yet to see a single theological concept that is present in Islam that isn't just a simplified Christian idea.

>Wouldn’t it make more sense that a malevolent spirit would promote degeneracy and debauchery?
He did. I would consider the Islamic world to be very degenerate. Rome was far from being holy but what happened with köçeks in Ottoman Empire sometimes makes my head spin... It is no secret that spirits try to trick you and some would even propose things to you that we would conventionally see as virtuous. For example the spirit of greed sometimes makes you worry about giving alms and about other people's poverty. It seems paradoxical but your heart is tricked into focusing on money one way or another and the unclean spirit wins.
Some spirits even proclaim the One True God - like in Acts 16. It takes discernment to recognize a clean spirit from an unclean one. You cannot just trust all of what they tell you, like "Hello I am totally Gabriel." And when you are struck with worry and confusion instead of peace, this is one of the clearest signs that the spirit is not clean.

>>17830363
it means we are 69'ing jesus

>>17830728
>You cannot just trust all of what they tell you, like "Hello I am totally Gabriel.
desu the worst part is in the Qu'ran proper the angel never names itself. The narration and Mohammad _assumes_ it is Jibril but the ANGEL OF LIGHT never reveals his own name.
>14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
Corinthians 2:11

>>17830744
looks like captcha made me lose a part of the text
Corinthians 2:11 seems to point to Mohammad being right in his assumption, but then you're reminded that those passages exalt Jibril, not God.

>>17830716
Again if he is one essence he cannot forsake/separate himself due to his nature being immutable

Trinity fails it's own internal logic

>>17830768
>Again if he is one essence he cannot forsake/separate himself due to his nature being immutable
you're conflating essence and nature and making a fallacious presupposition out of it.
The nature of an object isn't immutable, its essence thought definitely is.
God is One in essence, of three person in nature. Those two statements are not, in fact, contradictory.

>>17830780
>God is One
>He can separate from himself

Fails internal logic

>>17830699
>How was your god able to forsake Christ during the crucifixion?
He didn't? He was quoting Psalm 22.

https://www.esv.org/Psalm+22/

>>17830645
>Do you hear yourself?
Does the sun set on a muddy spring?
Does semen come from between the backbone and the ribcage?
Is the sex of a baby determined by if the father or the mother ejaculate first during sex?
Are shooting stars missiles that hit demons trying to spy on Allah?
Are the sun and the moon not allowed to be in the sky at the same time?
Do mountains stop the earth from moving?

>>17830343 (OP)
autotheism. john 20:17 is jesus talking about himself. he is god, and he is his own god. it is jesus reflecting on divine self-consciousness.
>god is his own cause
>god indwelling god
>god creates, knows, and loves himself
>god is the subject and object of divine consciousness
there, you can really make anything make sense through esoteric exegesis

>إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَىٰ مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ
What did the Qur'an mean by this?
>Inb4 "rough" in this one verse aktchually means mercy
Lol, I like how the عربي مبين turns into mumbojumbo wording that suddenly means something completely different just to explain how the Qur'an says that jesus/ISA was the spirit of God and the word of him..

>>17831418
rouh/روح*

>>17830881
The narrative was fulfilling Psalms

Which involves being forsaken by god the father. Which can't be possible because he is supposed to be god.

>>17830343 (OP)
>It is impossible to explain the trinity without copping out to “god works in mysterious ways”

And? So what? What's the proof that nothing about God is mysterious?

Do you have have full understanding about what it means for your fake god "allah" to have a shin, hands and a face? or is it mysterious?

>>all prophets are referred to as “sons” of god in a metaphorical context

Oh really, funny you should mention that since your fake book claiming to be following the same god as the God of Abraham says that "allah" is not a father and has no children (112:3)
Since you're admitting that the old and new testament clearly say God is father and prophets are his children , then you admit that "allah" is not the same god as the God of Abraham.

>>17831606
Do you know what a metaphor is

>>17831608
sounds mysterious

>>17831608
>>17830700
Answer the fucking question.
SAY THE WORDS, FAG. WE KNOW YOU WANT TO SAY IT EVERYTIME SOMEONE POINTS TO YOUR GOD BEING A FUCKING MONG.
>ALLAHU A'ALAM

>>17830343 (OP)
Images are haram, faggot, and so is 4chan.

>>17830343 (OP)
>without copping out to “god works in mysterious ways”
That's the entire basis for Islam. It starts with the autistic arguments over if the Quran is created or uncreated.

>>17830343 (OP)
It is not impossible, I am not even Christian but can explain it. There are different models that explain how the persons of the trinity relate to each.

Basically, there is a single divine essence (God) serves as the single substance or “matter” in a a sense of material constitution that constitutes three distinct “persons” (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), analogous to how one piece of clay might constitute multiple statues in different relational configurations/ Each divine person is not a part of God, but fully constituted by the same divine substance, sharing all essential properties of deity. Why three person, they have theological reasons for that but utltimately they ground out in the classical theist omniopotence. Their distinction in persons arises not from what they are made of (since they share the same divine essence), but from their internal relational properties (e.g., the Father begets the Son, the Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son). If you wanted to compare it to Islam think about how the Ashari Aqidah thinks about the 99 names of God and his attributes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIthUoXLpcg