The point of Christianity is derived from the ritual logic of the Scapegoat Ritual in the Jewish Day of Atonement ceremonies. In the Scapegoat Ritual, two goats are selected:
>One goat is sacrificed to YHVH
>The other goat is symbolically imbued with the sins of the tribe and then cast out into the wilderness as an offering to Azazel (hence where we get the term "scapegoat" today)
Jesus symbolically took on the role of both goats within the crucifixion narrative, absorbing the sins of the tribe and acting as a literal human sacrifice to God.

Ephesians 5:2
>And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

So in order to "get" Christianity you have to buy into the ritual logic of Judaism, which states that sins have a transitive property you can symbolically imbue on a sacrifice to be absolved for.

I can't bump this enough...

duh...sin can be transfered like a financial transaction...daaaar

Can you name a more fundamentally Jewish concept. I cant

That was a Mesopotamian ritual not a Jewish one

>>17835080 (OP) Lol, you've missed the point of the Christ entirely, like every atheist do.

>>17835108
Most Christians actually miss this point entirely, and it is absolutely biblical, that Christ died as a burnt offering and sacrifice to God to once and for all forgive the sins of all who believe on Him. Because of this single fact you will not be judged unrighteous by God, and will have eternal life so long as you believe on Jesus Christ. Whatever sins you commit will not condemn you, they will bring you disaster in this life, but not in the next, that is God's promise.

Good post. Just a commentary from my side:

At the risk of being pedantic I would like to point out that "derived" is a wrong word to use. You don't derive an archetype (Christ) from its types (predecessors). It's the types that are derived from the archetype, regardless of which appeared chronologically earlier.

>Jesus symbolically took on the role of both goats within the crucifixion narrative, absorbing the sins of the tribe
Correct.
>acting as a literal human sacrifice to God.
And a divine communion offering to humans, yes.

>sins have a transitive property you can symbolically imbue on a sacrifice to be absolved for
Maybe it's because of the concise phrasing, but what you're communicating sounds very close to "substitutionary atonement". Treating sin as a sort of mistake sheet and re-assigning these individual mistakes to someone else conforms to the legalistic understanding of sin, but it doesn't completely conform to how Hebrews saw sin in general. Sure, transgressions were among the individual sins, but sin itself was a uniform force, a disease, a filth that lies around and that needs to be cleansed (with or without someone else taking the blame). The point of the OT rituals was to show all the different ways in which sin needs to be combated - that it needs to be brought back to the evil one (goat for Azazel), that it's only combatted by life itself (blood of a creature), that it needs habitual cleansing and even this habitual repetition doesn't really solve the original sin...

So you're right about sin being transferable, I just want to make sure it doesn't mislead people into penal substitution theories, which are misleading at best and outright wrong at worst.

>>17835108
You worship a metaphorical chicken lol

Also how do you not know this about your religion. Your rabbi is a sin sacrifice

>>17835080 (OP)
God's plan to reconcile the fall was to unite all of God in Christ, and to make that possible he had to incarnate and willingly die to ascend in order for his people to be able to receive salvation through him by forming collectively his body, the body of God, with his authority to do in his name that which glorifies heaven's kingdom and brings them everlasting life.

You... you are a damned lying heretic and your lies will never be truth.

>>17835138
>I'm saving you from problems I created myself

Peak Jewish religion

>>17835138
>You... you are a damned lying heretic and your lies will never be truth.
Bible literally says it clear as day. OP posted the verse.

>>17835141
>My sin is God's fault
Adam is that you?

>>17835141
God profered up his body, authority, and name so that in them his people would have justification to do all which ensures their eternal life. The world hates and would otherwise destroy those who are of God, and so it was a great act signifying his love that he should allow such a thing to come to pass. And do not be mistaken, the world does hate and will destroy his people, those who are of God, if they do not find their salvation in him in this way.

>>17835152
Is god in control? Yes or no

>>17835153
>god killed himself to save you from himself
Lol ok

Literally every global empire adopted chritscuckery as their religion. Stop pretending to be perpetual oppressed victims like a Jew lmao

>>17835159
>Is god in control? Yes or no
Of course he is! Wait a minute... that.... that means I can refuse all responsibility for my actiosn! I'm an automaton! YAAAY
Haha no. God is in control and personal responsibility still exists.

>>17835159
>to save you from himself
from the world, which hates those who are of God and will destroy them, is currently trying like hell to destroy them.

>>17835120
>Whatever sins you commit will not condemn you, they will bring you disaster in this life, but not in the next, that is God's promise.

How convenient...no way to verify this. Shut your retarded ass up and quit shilling cope.

>>17835165
,>god is in control but blames you

Thanks for clearing that up. Logic failure noted

>>17835166
Who created the world?

>>17835171
>noooo I'm being blamed for the things I did
My bad.

>>17835171
>Who created the world?
>>17835138
>God's plan to reconcile the fall

The fall... if not for the fall then the Son would never have been necessary.

>>17835127
>You worship a metaphorical chicken lol

ahahahhaha it do be like dat. Someone needs to use generative ai and whip up a chicken crucified on a cross. I'm looking at (you) anon

>>17835108
Are you saying the Bible lied in Ephesians about the point of the crucifixion?

>>17835138
>God's plan to

This dumb motherfucker thinks he can understand god's plan and communicate it to us. Do you even listen to the dumbshit that comes out your mouth?

>>17835172
I didn't even choose to exist lol how is this my fault. Your god controls all the variables but pretends the responsibility is not his like a schizo.

>>17835180
Is it controversial to assert that the fall was reconciled through the cross? I think not, such is axiomatic in the context of Christian theology.

>>17835186
>how are my decisions my fault?

>>17835086
Sin. Sin is a more fundamentally Jewish concept than it's transference.
>>17835189
Can a person be sinless? Is that something which they can decide?

>>17835202
>Can a person be sinless? Is that something which they can decide?
Of course not. Nobody said you can be blamed for everything in your life. Just that you can be blamed for your own decisions. Which is not only extremely non-controversial, it is THE key of becoming an adult human being.

>>17835187
>Is it controversial to assert that the fall was reconciled through the cross?

It's just stupid. All this is just a way to cope with guilt. It's been weaponized. I alone am responsible for my actions. I can't just pawn it off on some metaphysical chicken (Jesus).

>>17835216
>rigged game
>but it's your fault

Levels of jewing off the charts

Also your jewgod created man with a sin nature then gets mad at his work lol

>>17835220
Sin nature? What's that? How come sin only appears after Adam is fully formed, Eve is fully formed and both live completely sinless for a period of time?

>>17835219
you have fundamentally misunderstood or are misrepresenting what it even is to be Christian. Refer to this which I have already explained for you in order that you may then have a more full understanding.
>>17835153
>God profered up his body, authority, and name so that in them his people would have justification to do all which ensures their eternal life.

>>17835225
Who created the tree? Who created satan?


Where was god and his legions of angels when the snake came for his children?

Garden of Eden was an inside job lol

>>17835225
There you go again anon, right back to the Jewish fairytales. Why do you absolutely insist on putting yourself in a judaic mental framework??? Break free

>>17835230
>who created the knife that I used to stab 25 people? obviously it's not my fault
>lol

>>17835232
Wait so are you now admitting that "sin nature" is not in the judaic framework or... ? I lost track of the coping now, all I know is you don't understand personal responsibility.

>>17835233
>I'm gonna leave this chocolate in my kids room
>I'm gonna send his uncle to tell him to eat it
>If he does the kid deserves to be burned forever

The Jewish god

>>17835216
Could you decide to be Good, to not need salvation? No? Then why are you talking about personal responsability? The doctrine of Original sin is not compatible with the idea that one is responsible for his own actions.
Or do you believe creatures have personal responsability for things they can't help? Are you going to try animals for crimes?
Also save the reddit speak, please.
>>17835225
Exactly two people had ever personal responsability, you just inherit their crimes, for no reason. Just how it is. Inmutable law of the universe. You are personally responsible for things you didn't do. Can't help it, so sad, the omnipotent creator of the universe is completely impotent to do anything else.

>>17835240
>apple
>no animal touches it
>no human touches it
>don't even think about it
>had to be tricked into eating it
>>>>> obviously it was an irresistible temptation, chocolate in a kids room!!!

(You)

>>17835243
Like I said in >>17835216, nobody is pretending that personal responsibility encompasses the entire picture. But it is undeniably in the picture. And you seem to be extremely unhappy about that.

>The doctrine of Original sin is not compatible with the idea that one is responsible for his own actions.
Not really, no. Collective and personal mistakes both exist in real life.

>Or do you believe creatures have personal responsability for things they can't help?
I don't think animals are "personal" in the theological sense to begin with.

>you just inherit their crimes, for no reason
Huh? You don't see the reasoning behind children inheriting their parent's situation? You think when your parents move from Europe to Brazil you get born in Europe with a clean sleight? Lol that's not how being born works. You inherit the implications of your parents decisions, both good and bad.

>>17835247
Who created the apple?

Who created the trickster?

Come on christjew connect the dots

>>17835252
>I stabbed my sister but who put this knife here?
>w-why doesn't the jury c...connect the dots??

>>17835251
>Not really, no. Collective and personal mistakes both exist in real life.
Well certainly one has to commit those mistakes, unless you believe every german henceforth is guilty of the holocaust. I did not eat any fruit, neither did you.
>You think when your parents move from Europe to Brazil you get born in Europe with a clean sleight?
Well certainly no one is personaly responsible of that. And even then they are damned. Newborn children, without baptism, are damned. They inherit a crime they can't actually understand yet.
>>17835253
Your great(X30) grandfather stabbed his sister when he was a toddler, thus irreparably moving your bloodline into the status of Criminality forever, which makes you deserving of a life sentence in solitary, which you can only change by being inducted into a monastic order.

>>17835286
>Well certainly no one is personaly responsible of that.
Correct. You bear the consequences of something you did not personally choose. Meaning that there exist things in your life that both are and aren't your personal responsibility.
>They inherit a crime they can't actually understand yet.
Just like you don't understand what Brazil is despite having to be born there. It doesn't really matter what they understand or don't understand. They inherit conditions from their parents.
>irreparably moving your bloodline
No it can be repaired. Obviously you selected an example where there isn't any obvious damage TO be repaired tho lol

>>17835253
False equivalence. Imagine being sentenced eternal torture because you ate an apple lol

Your god entraps and abuses spiritual children

>>17835314
You know you have someone when their only defense is "no, I don't like the comparison so it's false" then proceed to hit you with the highly nuanced "eternal torture because you ate an apple".
Extremely insightful take, thank you. I now see that I can judge things which I don't understand and reject the little responsibility that I have in my life. Yay

>>17835307
Nonsensical semantics

>>17835328
>"Nonsensical semantics"
>Posts a meme that relies on not getting the semantics right
Alright buddy!

>>17835327
>"eternal torture because you ate an apple"

That is literally your original sin dogma

Thanks for agreeing that your cult is nonsense though

>>17835334
>I am gonna misunderstand because doing otherwise will reveal the stupidity of my semetic desert cult

Many such cases!

>>17835335
Not really. "Apple" doesn't even appear in the entire dogma, you're being obtuse because it's simpler to argue against something when you don't understand it. And if you're doing it unintentionally then I am genuinely sorry.

>>17835338
What do you think I misunderstood? I literally pointed out what you tried to infer and where it was false.

>>17835339
You called it an apple first lol

So it's a nondescript fruit

Eternal torture to those who eat nondescript fruit lol

Deranged

>>17835348
You'll be happy to learn that the description is "fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil".

>>17835354
Dang that sounds dangerous

Maybe he should've put it somewhere else then like someone reaponsible

>>17835358
Where?

>>17835170
If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.

>>17835171
>god is in control
His name is I AM.
Pick up your mat and walk.

>>17835219
>I alone
You, are not alone. I, am always with, you.

>>17835431
>god is in complete control

Then he also has complete responsibiity. Sin is nonsensical

>>17835447
One would almost think the popularity of determinism, despite being long scientifically outdated, is mainly due to people wanting an excuse to completely refuse responsibility.

>>17835447
You are made of God therefor share that responsibility

>>17835219
It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him

>>17835453
>the created is more responiable than the creator

Gross inversion of reality

>>17835457
If something good happens it's god

If something bad happens it's me

What a shit deal lmao or just abuse cult nonsense

>>17835468
More responsible?

ITT: /pol/ morons who know exactly fuck-all about Jewish ritual law

Jesus wasn't a sacrifice to anything just a small time conman and false messiah who was rightfully killed.

>>17835469
*created is more responsible

Yes

>>17835479
Who said that?

>>17835487
Anyone arguing humans who can barely control their life circumstance is more responsible than god

>>17835080 (OP)
It's literally just a sin offering; that's why jesus' blood is so important on christianity, blood in jewish religion and broadly all the middle east was sin as a simble of life and purifying force when offered to god; though it has to be noted that sin offerings could also be bloodless, yhwh just made a weird human sacrifice just because he wanted to

>>17835138
How does any of that happen by a guy dying on a piece of wood?

>>17835496
>>>the created is more responsible
>>Who said that?
>Anyone arguing... [created] is more responsible.
Yeah no shit. But who said that in this thread or any other?

>>17835468
>it's me
take up the cross and follow me

I AM the Lord your God. Who brings you out of slavery? ME!

When something bad happens, it is seperated, and thrown into the fire. Truly repent, confess your sins, and turn away from sin, and you are forgiven.

>>17835172
God choses who is saved from the beginnig of the world; it's all his doing

>We know that all things work together[r] for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family.[s] 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

>>17835187
Explain why god needed to kill a homunculus of himself to be less angry about two people that didn't know what "bad" was for eating an apple

>>17835141
>study physics.
>why?
>so physics can save you.
>from what?
>from what physics will do to you if you don't study it.

>>17835159
>Is god in control?
Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked

Pick up your mat and walk.

>>17835559
Yet god can't do this himself

Yet god created the problems humanity has to clean up

Deranged

>>17835540
Trial and error.

>>17835120
>God promised this
>Only source is a single schizo who refused to provide evidence for his own divinity

>>17835570
>Only source
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written

>>17835138
Do you even know what heresy means idiot?

>>17835575
The statement commits an ad hominem fallacy, attacking the person's intelligence ("idiot") rather than addressing the argument or question about heresy. It fails to engage with the substance of the discussion, instead resorting to personal insult.

Using an ad hominem fallacy often suggests that the person lacks a strong counterargument or is unwilling to engage with the actual substance of the discussion. It may indicate emotional frustration, a desire to deflect from the issue, or an attempt to win the argument through intimidation rather than reason
.

>>17835581
NTA but an insult isn't an ad hominem fallacy. Ad hominem fallacies just happen to often be insulting.

>>17835468
>If something good happens it's god
>If something bad happens it's me
>What a shit deal lmao or just abuse cult nonsense

If you make an immature strawman out of what you're arguing against you can discredit anything.
You are committing public masturbation at this point, and the only reason you suffer is that you are approach ideas in complete bad faith

>>17835166
>pic
You literally worship jews and participate in a jewish religion.

>>17835607
That's literally what your religion teaches

>>17835574
Like that one time He gave a rim job to every single man in Africa.

>>17835575
>Do you even know what heresy means idiot?

For Catholics anything that contradicts "pope said so". It's literally that simple, one of the primary reasons the eastern churches broke with the west.

>>17835504
>How does any of that happen by a guy dying on a piece of wood?

Jesus literally takes the place of a chicken or goat and becomes the scapegoat sacrifice like in yom kippur. Sin is a currency on a balance sheet that can be transfered around. lol. This shit is embarrassing

lol what a bunch of whiny seething bitches

>>17835474
What Jesus actually was or wasn't is irrelevant to OP's point about the theological underpinnings of Christianity

>>17835635
Nope
This world is fallen no matter what we do and sin will always be a part of it until the second coming of Christ
Our job is to learn to overcome these conditions through faith and learning to love despite the challenges of this world

>>17835080 (OP)
Enjoy Hell.

>>17835938
For actually understanding the religion you pretend to base your life around but never seriously studied?

>>17835965
Those flames just got hotter.

>>17835975
Get saved for real.

>>17835975
Aren't you supposed to be turning the other cheek right now? Christians forget how utterly pussified their doctrine actually commands them to be.

>>17836025
kekmaoing @ jewsus the simp

>>17835080 (OP)
>quoting the epistles of fucking paul, literal qanon schizobabble trying to convince other jews that christ is lord
retard. he died because he needed to fulfill prophecies in the old testament. if his coming is the new covenant, it needs to legitimize itself by fulfilling prophecies in the old one. not because god is limited by his own past words, but so that people have something to lean onto when believing.

>>17835080 (OP)
Yes, that's what the Eucharist is all about.

>>17837646
So you're saying Paul was full of shit? That's a lot of the Bible to just dismiss outright.

>>17838122
>Paul was full of shit?
he wasn't "full of shit", he was doing everything at hand to convince the local jew communities that jesus christ is the messiah and the son of god who died and resurrected three days later. but sometimes his epistles can devolve into incomprehensible schizobabbles that sound like he's having a mental breakdown. what i meant was that using someone's arguments specifically devised to convince a specific person or group of people to debunk an entire religion outright is stupid. i personally think that the gospels are more important to the faith, that jesus christ is the lord, than the epistles. i understand using the gospel narratives and pointing out parts to try to poke holes in the faith (although people who try to do that generally point to narrative differences or discrepancies, all of which very minor, between the four gospels written by different people of different cultures at different times.). i'm not dismissing the epistles, i'm just a believer of the supremacy of the gospels in the new testament.

>>17835166
>racial supremacism :0
>racial supremacism jews :/

>>17835089
>>17835127
>>17835141
>>17835171
>>17836025
Spotted the antiwhite antichrist r/atheism tourists.

>>17838331
As jews are the traitors in rebellion against God, defying the throne of heaven, they do indeed murder and by murder seek to become the sole inheritor of the heavenly kingdom. Understanding that this is indeed a war between the blood of the fall for dominion of the Father's creation is required if one hopes to have the Son's salvation.

>>17838239
So instead of arguing he's full of shit, you're arguing he was insane and that's why his text is inconsistent?

>>17838367
would love to see a jew respond to this

>>17838367
Jews don't see goyim as inheritors to anything, especially heretic Christians (as Jesus himself is burning in boiling shit right now), so it's a non-issue to them. You Christians massively overestimate how important you are to Jews.

>>17838463
>how important
uh huh

>>17838375
i'm not saying he was insane, ffs. i said in the endeavor of trying to convince the communities of jews he was writing to, he sounds like he was having a faith related breakdown. compare it to nietzsche's books where he argues on existentialism and tries to argue against nihilism and prove that life is worth living, but in said endeavor he goes through an emotional breakdown which makes him sound incoherent. at least thats what i remember from reading in my hs philosophy class. by 'schizobabble', i meant an emotional or mental breakdown where the writer sounds coherent in his own mind, but his writing ends up being incoherent.
in short, my usage of the word "schizobabble" can be replaced with "crashing out".

>>17838474
based and yakubpilled

>>17838490
Yakub was invented in a jew, wallace fard in the 1930s

>>17838487
>having a faith related breakdown
Still implies you view his contribution to the text as the result of a mental aberration so...

>>17835138
>it's the "god is when ytppl" retard again

>>17835138
>and to make that possible he had to
if he is and all powerful omnipotent God he would be able to do whatever he wanted by simply willing it without middle steps or an over-complicated human sacrifice ritual

>>17838463
>>17838474
Morons keep conflating the modern day Jews with the ones of The Bible. Everybody who believes in Christ is a true Jew, not the larpers we know today.

>>17835659
>Sin is a currency on a balance sheet that can be transfered around.
that the most jewish thing I ever heard
does it compound with interests too ?

>>17839238
>compound with interests too ?

Depends on how you feel about generational sin