The Argives mentioned in the Illiad originally refered to the inhabitants of Pelasgian Argos, the earlier name for Thessaly, this becomes clear upon reading the Thessalian section of the catalogue of ships (universally agreed to be the oldest part of the poem) in Greek, aswell as noting the sheer overrepresentation of Thessalians in the expedition.

Peleponesian Argos was irrelevant in Mycenaean times and was a backwater during the dark ages, but was conveniently the dominant force in Greece in Homer's days, meaning the refrences to Argos the city as important is likely an anachronism, same as with Sparta.
The political structure of the Mycenaean kingdoms also don't match what we see in the Illiad at all, but it does closely resemble the koine structure of the Thessalian leauge from the classical and Archaic periods with the Tagus as military leader. The theory also explains how Thebes was sacked (which we know happened in the late bronze-age) by the Epigoni, who couldn't possible have come from Argos(which wasn't even a major center yet) as the later mythographer clam and probably not Mycenae either since the Mycenaean kingdoms in general don't seem to have been very expansionistic. Finally this explains why so many of the Greek heroes are described as having fair features even though we know from depictions and now genetic testing that the late Mycenaeans were quite dark, the heroes were originally from northern Greece and some of them were reimagined as rulers of the larger centers down south during the Dark-age migrations.

>satanic mythology is satanic

>who woulda guessed

>>17837944
Hi chud anon
>>17837942 (OP)
Logkas

Rangeban all India IPs including Simon Cuckva

Fucking now

>>17837942 (OP)
I doubt northern greece would've looked much different from southern greece in the classical period...
Most northern greek/illyrian or even daunian sample cluster with Tuscans.
Tuscans, for your information, are an intermediate between west sicilians and venetians.
These people aren't germans. They have some light haired people, buy they are not germans.

>>17837950

Fuck Timmy gon do?

>>17837951
Why would it be the same in the north? The Iron Age Illyrians had up to 40% steppe, and they weren't that far from Greece. The dilution was massive in the south because apparently, the IE Greek branch, Catacomb, were migrants desperate due to drought or fearful of the Babinian culture. They would have numbered no more than 2,000 people. The Yamnaya/Catacomb population was no more than 40,000 people.

>>17837957
The "north" of what?
Also Illyrians had 40% steppe if you don't use CHG/ZNF in the model. They probably had around 35%. The problem is that having 40% steppe doesn't make you majority light haired if you don't have also a lot of WHG (you need to be GAC derived, which ancient greek were not). Look at north italians, the vast vast majority has still dark hair and dark eyes.
What's more probable is:
1. People are mistranslating ancient greek words.
Some people still think Augustus was blonde, because subflavum was translated as blonde.
Some books have ancient greek as a blonder population than scandinavians. That's retarded. In greece there are 40 degrees in the summer. Like c'mon.
2. Ancient greeks had the ideal of light hair as "noble". Even if they didn't have much incidence within the population (but they still thought themselves as superior to north europeans for some reason, probably ethnonarcissism, see Aristotle).

>>17837942 (OP)
If it weren't for Minoan Greece, what would Greece or the Mycenaeans themselves be? Architecture? Minoan
Government? Minoan
Technology? Minoan
Just to name a few. Greek greatness comes from the far south. Thessaly was seen as barbaric, and it was those you despise, the Athenian Pelagians, who were the foundations of Western civilization and the precursors of what the world envies. Athena herself is Minoan, damn it.

>>17837964
North of greece.
And semantics are not necessary here
Illyrians can have 40% steppe in models with conventional P-value and using paleo_balkan sources that the studies use.
The rest of your post=
>Starting from the premise that I think steppe = super Swedes Mediterranean n shiet

As an Mediterranean, I'm afraid to say we're suffering from a retarded persecution mania. No one mentioned hair or even phenotype; I'm talking about proxy and quantity.

>>17837972
Medcists>nordicists
The Same cancer cell

>>17837972
>>17837964
In fact, things are so retarded, just look at what Lazaridis says.
Basically, it's getting to the point where the mere act of mentioning:
> SOME GREEKS had light-colored features

is causing an uproar.

Most Hellenistic men were 1.90m blond?! No. But it wasn't as rare as we like to make it seem, it wasn't any less rare than we see today. In fact, at least according to the Gentink trash, one of the Logkas women was a redhead. Does this mean I'm saying that Greece was entirely composed of redheads? No.

>>17837972
>>17837991
Are greeks majority blonde haired? No.
Are they red haired? Lol lmao, no.
So why are you pretending "thessalians" being central italians explains nordicist claiming ancient greek figures were 80% blonde (blonder than scandinavians). It's completely retarded
"Yeah thessalians were the slightly less swarthy kind of paleo balkans so this means they were finns" no?

>>17837976
If medicist are claiming ancient greeks weren't irish, then they are Simply correct. I don't see what buzzwords or categorizations can do about this.

>>17837991
I don't know why this anon was rambling about hair color when no one mentioned this shit. The meds are buying into the pain of the Nordicist boogeyman in everything. Now they seem feminist about the evil patriarchal jargon. Some are so annoying that they are nothing more than Nordicists with the wrong flag. But to be fair, only one side is attacked. In this case, the retarded Nordicists, retarded "medics," don't get the punishment they deserve.
You don't fight Nordicism using the same tactics.
The problem with chauvinism is that it's intrinsic to this G25 nationalism. You guys sucks, both sides. Boring

>>17837998
retarded idiot, he never said that, what are you trying here? Schizophrenic faggot, stop creating fights where there are none. This isn't Xiiter for you to start with your garbage. This anon literally said that besides not being the majority, he even questioned the result of Gentinker. You ironically proved his point
>>17837942 (OP)
Because greek came from Thessaly? Dur

>>17838025
What do you mean "rambling about hair colors"? Are you completely mongoloid?
Your thread thesis is: "Mycenean figures are described as mostly light haired because they were based on thessalians, not mycenaeans". Then you go look at ancient thessalians and they are fucking central italians.
You do realize you're an idiot, right?
I doubt the incidence of light features is even 5% higher in central italy than it is in south italy, and south italians are not known for being very light.

>>17838025
exactly see above
It didn't take 3 minutes and the flies already ate the witch hunt with false premises. Now I'm a Nordicist even though I'm Italian somehow, this made sense in the insane mind of racial conflict

>>17838043
Your point is stupid because you are explaining a morphological difference in lightness claiming a population that isn't very morphologically light is the basis instead of the other non morphologically light population. This would be stupid even if you were north african. It's just stupid on a logical level.

>>17838038
>unrelated answer
You already started cursing me in the first line, control yourself, rethink your words and we can talk later. I never said that the Greeks were X or Y or Z, My argument is definitely different, not even related to how they described themselves.
but your young mind craves controversy. I understand. I was once pathetic like that, but life is not made of that, especially with something so irrelevant in the practical sense as the appearance of people who died thousands of years ago, listen boy, before cursing the Nordoids, Look at yourself, are you in a position for that? Or are you just a loser and insecure medoid like them? You deserve each other. It's incredible.

>>17838047
>morphologically
You don't even have the cognitive ability to use the right words to make sentences make sense.
Besides, another bizarre answer.
>North African
You barely master the repertoire and have to use adjectives for every word. Perhaps it's clear who the non-European is here, you hypocritical lunatic.

>>17838025
This is the point. Guys, how can they be so cynical about your life? You consider yourself better or fairer than the Nordics, while you're so toxic. Arrogance kills me. In these two groups, intrigue abounds. Many accounts aren't even white. However, ironically, making a Nordic man boil is simple: show a Viking with brown hair.
And making a Middle Eastern man boil is simple:
mention a character or even mention the existence of blond people in the ancient Mediterranean.
Both will have a mental breakdown. They're more alike than you think, hahaha. Cringe.

>>17838077
By the way, I said Middle East on purpose, haha.
But I'm talking about Southern Euros, obviously By the way, since I know you're female faggots who live off labels and 80s indentarianism from poor neighborhoods in LA I'm in my "place of speech," because my father is English and my mother is Italian, haha.

>>17837942 (OP)
>Finally this explains why so many of the Greek heroes are described as having fair features
false premise

>>17838034
>Because greek came from Thessaly?
Yes but the Trojan and Theban epic cycles have their origin in oral traditions from the 1200s BC, the Greeks had been in Greece for centuries at that point.

>>17837991
Being blonde is completely irrelevant, even if a minority of greeks were blonde it doesn't mean they were ''your people'' because you happen to be blonde. Same as dark haired germans or scandis aren't part of the ''med race''. The ethnicity/culture is completely different, that's what matters, not 1 aesthetic trait taken in isolation. This is no different than a bald guy going around the world claiming other bald people as his ''own race'' lol; it's so unbelievably retarded there are people who even think like this

Anyways, here is a good paper for those who want to look further into the topic and aren't blinded by modern nationalism:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/267669
You can find the paper for free here if you don't have university access.
https://archive.org/details/drews-studies-1962-2000

>>17837942 (OP)
>Peleponesian Argos was irrelevant in Mycenaean times and was a backwater during the dark ages, but was conveniently the dominant force in Greece in Homer's days, meaning the refrences to Argos the city as important is likely an anachronism, same as with Sparta.
Seems a little completely false to me. Will cite having gone to Mycenae, archaeology, genetics, AND history.

The desperation to make Greeks more white is Varg-tier lunacy built on magical thinking and sexual attraction to pale men.

>>17838813
I didn't mean the Argolid, but rather the city of Argos itself. The term "Argos" is also never used as a refrence to the region in the Illiad, it's only applied to the city or to the Greeks as a whole.

>>17837944
the bible is founded on satanic mythology. So kill yourself

>>17838821
>general don't seem to have been very expansionistic. Finally this explains why so many of the Greek heroes are described as having fair features even though we know from depictions and now genetic testing that the late Mycenaeans were quite dark
Please read the post instead of getting triggered over nothing.

Let's stop pretending that's not what it is over half of the time. There's 19th century/Charles Murray-like conceptions of innate pale man superiority and half of the nordicist cartoon glorifications are straight out of old gay cartoon porn mags, I've studied them for research. It's fashionable love of pale white men, lines up with current haircuts and the resurgence of gold jewelry for guys. Feel we've seen enough to call it. This is a version of gay Byronic romanticism being sold to us by nefarious aesthetes. It's IMPOSSIBLE that people CLOSER TO EGYPT AND THE LEVANT WHERE CIVILIZATION HAD EXISTED FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS had a leg up on whitey at any point, not buff warrior elite jewelry wearing whitey. IMPOSSIBLE. ONLY WHITE PEOPLE ARE CIVILIZED. IT'S INNATE! IT'S INNATE! Strawman?

>>17838852
He's so cu-- STRONG, I bet he could lift like 3 femboys up and just chuck them around before having sex exclusively with women by conquest, oh my. Can you imagine?

>>17838851
I will NEVER read a full post

>>17838852
why does the middle east have such a vast history of being conquered by white people?

>>17838878
Would be willing to say white people ARE innately better at waging war on average. Maybe selected more for physical strength and willingness to die in battle.

>>17837944
Hows your TNWO thread going?

>>17838882
probably true. Maybe. I don't know.

>>17838835
See what you're saying now but I doubt Argos was a genuine backwater considering its proximity to Tiryns and Mycenae and several other major Mycenaean sites, if anything my bet would be the city of Argos itself was the region best known to those of Homer's generation but the region of Argos itself must have been powerhouse. Far as I understand it was the heart of Mycenaean culture and where it spread originally from.

Mycenaeans weren't proto-Greeks linguistically they were in some sense proto-Greek civilizationally.

>>17838909
Exact opposite.

>>17838955
Bold claim and I'm not convinced you can actually back it up. If you're OP, you're presenting myth as myth, rightly, and then cherrypicking what's true and false out of it. Mycenae was almost definitely expansionistic at the very beginning of what we call Mycenaean culture for a reason. Greeks (Greek-speakers) from the north originally, Greeks from the south spread the BA Greek culture depicted in the Iliad northwards. Not an expert but that seems to be the consensus, Mycenaean-style pottery reached Thessaly hundreds of years after spreading out of Mycenae where Argos is within walking distance.

>>17838973
It's a trivial thing. Maybe there were super advanced cultures Thessalians could have been in seafaring contact with from western Anatolia, I don't know (doesn't look like it), but it's Minoans who are the better candidate for borrowings leading to Mycenaean culture. Mycenaeans from Mycenae (3 hour walk from Argos), descendants of Greeks from places like Thessaly, were in close contact with the Aegean powerhouse leading to the proper birth of Greek civilization (not language, not even culture).

>>17838973
>>17838989
Your claim was that the Mycenaeans weren't the linguistic ancestors of the Greeks even though we have deciphered the Linear B tablets which shows that they indeed did speak a form of proto-Greek, in particular that dialect would live on as Arcadian and Greco-cypriot. The Dorian dialect seems to be associated with northern Greece in the Bronze age, with the Aeolean and Ionian being different blends of pre-doric northern Greek and Mycenaean Greek. As far as civilization goes the Linear B tablets and archeology have shown that the Mycenaean kingdoms were completely different from the later Greek states, being centralized bureaucracies ruled by a king (Wanax), they seem more similar to near-eastern states than Archaic or Classical Greece, and certianly weren't the societies described in Homer. Even the religion seems to be quite different even if they did worship (some) of the same gods. I might respond to some of the other claims you made later but I have other things to do right now.

>>17839027
1) That doesn't mean they were the linguistic ancestors. Macedonian seems to have been a Hellenic language and isn't a descendant of Arcado-Cypriot. The Doric branch doesn't seem to have been either and the other 2 weren't either, suggesting strongly that proto-Greek was spoken pre-Mycenae and in the north of Greece.


2) I'll have to think about your other point. Could just be that Minoan-heavy southern Greek ancestry spread with Mycenaean economic dominance and Mycenaean culture (whatever separated it from other Greeks) didn't as much. Interesting if Archaic Greek customs really didn't draw much from Mycenaean forebears.

>>17839092
But also, adding on here, the idea of civilization itself (narrowly defined: written record keeping, centralized administration/military) could have been introduced to fellow Greek speakers through Mycenaeans, which would make sense due to proximity to Minoan world and known early contact with Crete/early conquering of Crete. I think Mycenaeans were the first Greek true civilization, let me rearrange the words a little, excluding possibly some early early city in Messenia apparently that probably had heavier duty contact with Crete.

The whole idea of writing Greek down almost definitely came from non-Greek Minoans doing heavy trade with southern Greek speakers made increasingly rich and advanced by Aegean trade networks. The whole concept of Greeks building civilizations (strictly defined) came from the south. The simpler explanation is that Greek civilization came from the south, the language from the north. Reflected in genetic studies. Northerners established military/linguistic dominance in a region that subsequently became highly advanced due to close contact with earlier and more advanced Aegean cultures.

>>17839166
Which is reflected in their genes. They're, for the most part barring some Anatolian BA looking outliers, they're roughly half MBA Greeks roughly like Mygdalia, half Minoan. So maybe something like 1/3 Macedonia_BA (early Greek-speaking), 1/3 Greece_EBA (presumably non-Greek), 1/3 Minoan (non-Greek).

>>17839187
Actually, forget the EBA, that's probably part of an earlier EBA step, it's really something like half-Minoan half-Macedonian_BA like. It's messier than that at the individual level but that captures the essence of what happened. The Minoan-heavier southerners seem to make up the bulk of Greek ancestry into the Classical period.

>>17839166
I mean, nobody disagrees but we're talking about events in the late Mycenaean period here...

I mean. I just like White people throwing spears far shadowed and stuff

>>17840688
It's a response to >>17838955

>>17840973
The post I was responding to said absolutely nothing about the Minoans, I'm assuming your original post >>17838909
confused the Minoans with the Mycenaeans?

>>17841087
What I'm saying is Mycenaeans from the Peloponnese (borrowing from Minoans originally) introduced the concept of ordering their settlements in a civilized (strictly defined) manner to their northern cousins. So Mycenaeans were in some sense proto-Greek civilizationally while their northern cousins/ancestors were proto-Greek linguistically. But it's interesting if subsequent Greek civs didn't borrow much from Mycenaeans.

>>17841491
Because Minoans didn't speak Greek and Mycenaeans did, you can say Mycenaean civ was the first Greek civ.

I've reread the OP a couple times and did get it wrong initially, and this might not apply to OP, but one thing that I think might be newly more or less settled and often framed wrong, is Mycenaeans didn't invade Greece, they formed there. Greeks/proto-Greeks "invaded" Greece, Minoans "invaded" mainland Greece (both groups owed some or most of their ancestry to local pre-Greeks), Mycenaeans formed there from the interactions between Greek invader tribes, non-invader tribes, and Minoans.

And then at least genetically those Mycenaeans spread their spin on Greek-Minoan ancestry throughout the rest of Greece outside maybe the far north and some islands. And form the bulk of Greek ancestry up through the Classical period it looks like, even if their uniquely Mycenaean culture and dialect was largely abandoned.

>>17837942 (OP)
Mycenaean Argos has never been excavated but it's one of the most continually inhabited cities in Greece. Nice try though. It's the same reason the Mycenaean citadel at the akropolis has never been excavated, because it's under the main Athenian classical akropolis, though the foundations of the walls are visible.

>>17842883
>Muh excavations
The fortress and material found at Larissa is vastly inferior to that of either Mycenae or Tirnys, and in the Dark ages there is 0 evidence of Argos having any influence through Greece at all. It's only in the 8th century that Argos becomes a key player in Greek history, and that's obviously the time when Diomedes was assigned to the city, similar to how Menelaus is originally only assigned to the region of Laconia in the Illiad but is said to rule ftom Sparta in the Odyssey.

>>17837944
unalive trumpanzee freak

>>17843604
You lost.