Thread 17838868

Is Job some kind of spiritual filter? Like, a faith-based media literacy test to see who is ready to believe in a higher power and who would rather there be nothing?

>>17838868 (OP)
Sure

>>17838868 (OP)
>oi satan look at this guy, he loves me!
>are you sure
>ok that's it, go fuck his shit up and I bet he still like me!

Wouldn’t God have already known the the devil would want him to test Job? Since God knows everything that ever has and ever will occur?

>>17838868 (OP)
It's the ultimate atheist rage fuel
>What do you mean I am not the center of the universe and that God owns me?
>What do you mean there are layers to reality that I don't comprehend, and never will??
>What do you mean I have to learn to overcome temporary suffering with love and joy???
There are so many levels of this story that the pride filled mind cannot even begin to imagine as possible, it is really elegant

>>17838868 (OP)
It's the religious equivelant of that stupid story about the job interview
>show up for 7am interview
>interviewer doesn't show up
>12 hours pass, it's now 7pm
>the interviewer finally shows up and gives me the job
>the real interview was a test of patience

Job had every right to reject God, for God treated him like shit despite Job's endless faith in God. God knew Job was faithful and chose to punish him anyway, he didn't need to test him, he didn't need to do any of that, God is just a sadistic monster and no dignified person should pay any respect to him whatsoever

>>17839208
Contrast this with western gods

Zeus will strike you with lightning at random, regardless of how much you worship him, because he never actually claims to care about humanity or even like humanity, he makes no promises to reward humanity. Zeus is simply the king of gods and humanity must suffer under his immaturity whether you like it or not.

One is unjust suffering, while the other is sheer cuckholdry.

>>17839208
>God creates you, no thanks
>God takes life away, you damn him
Lol

>>17839208
It was not for the sake of God that He did the test, it was so that the angels of heaven could be convinced of the sanctity of mankind in the face of the accusations of satan

>>17838868 (OP)
It filters for the sort of person who is ripe for exploitation because they're signaling that they're willing to put up with abuse without coming to see the abuser in a bad light.

>>17839230
You're the type of guy who says his parents caused him trauma because they made you go to bed early while they were allowed to stay up late.

>>17839232
Instead of using a silly example example why not use what supposedly happened to Job? Maybe I'm the sort of person who says my parents caused me trauma because they murdered my children, murdered my pets, and gave me a painful disfiguring skin disease that caused all my friends to assume I had done something horrible to deserve it even though in fact I did nothing to offend them.

>>17839232
You are like a woman who think her husband beats him when his team loses a football game because he loves her

>>17839204
Atheists can't even begin to understand that it is thanks to us being made in God's image that were are capable of creating goodness out of suffering. They think they he OWES us a happy life when his blessing is that we are here at all. We could just be in a state of nothingness for ever, but instead, he makes the universe and graces us with abilities, intelligence, and emotions to create better lives for ourselves. Instead, he is blamed for the actions of evil instead of thanked that we have the means to fight it off.

Look at the people in this very thread who are so small-minded that they consider the cosmic creator of reality to be an "abuser". How fucking narcissistic. God giveth, God taketh away. I'm sure people here think they're smarter than the arbiter of reality when they probably struggle trying to grow a single tree on their first try.

If you think Jib is valuable/deep you were either raised Christian or Jewish, or you're a peabrain. The most overrated story in ancient literature, and more of a proto-Islamic anti-theodicy, despite the theodicean ending Christians are doctrinally obliged to reinterpret.

>>17839251
>Atheists can't even begin to understand that it is thanks to us being made in God's image
Is God a monkey?

>>17839389
>physical similarities mean we are identical to apes
What are the differences between us and the apes?

>>17839389
Medieval peasants were capable of understanding that God's image meant spiritually and not physically. How are we so dumb now?

>>17838868 (OP)
It's a shit test to see who is willing to tolerate such a stupid and evil religion.

>>17839520
Nothing really. We’re just Apes that filled the intelligent tool user niche. Our ancestors were Chimps who got caught out of the jungle due to climate change and were forced to adopt to a terrestrial endurance build (IE not living in trees).

>>17839251
Do you not think you owe it to your children that they should live a happy life? Or are they just yours to torture and manipulate as you see fit since you created them?

Do you always show blind obedience and loyalty to those who are more powerful than you? Have you never thought that perhaps some of them are simply bullies who abuse their power and are unworthy of it?

>>17839872
If I created not only my kids, but the entire reality they live in including the universe and everything in it, then I say their lives are pretty much mine to do what I want. I already manifested them and everything they know into existence, I know what their life entails because I've already seen all of it since I exist in a realm where there is no time and thus I see the beginning and end of their life simultaneously. So if John's entire family dying means that people will be inspired and moved by his grief for thousands and thousands of years, then yes, he's gonna experience some pain in the mortal world and I promise him everlasting paradise in the spiritual world.

Stop thinking in things in such a basic human lens. As if God is just a normal human dad taking a belt off to spank you or some shit. Come on.

>>17839892
And because upon re-reading it, it sounds vague, "John" as in "John Doe" as in the unnamed kids in this scenario. Not a typo for Job.

>>17839892
>As if God is just a normal human dad taking a belt off to spank you or some shit.
Seems more like an insane dictator rather than an abusive father.

If such a being really did exist, he is unworthy or worship and adoration.

>>17839251
>Atheists
>They think they he OWES
they actually think he's not real

>>17839912
You are STILL only thinking in human terms because you refuse to open your mind to anything being above a human.

>you can't judge God by the same moral standards as you would judge any human because you just can't, okay!
>the only appropriate way to judge God is within a frame where whatever he does or allows is perfectly good and justified no matter how bad it would be if a human did it!

>>17839998
You can't judge God period. God created the heavens and the earth and everything in it. He does with it as he pleases. Yet he is good so all who trust in him never lack anything.

>>17839998
without God, you do not have the means to judge another human in the first place. your collective standards are relative and smuggled in to your atheist world view from a christian paradigm. list some actions from the bible you disagree with and then give an account for why it is wrong in a Godless world.

Job is fuckin based, and the final book of the Bible. You have to "get" it. Plebs view God as evil for afflicting Job, or agree with his friends' point of view.

>>17839998
This Anon didn't "get" it. Literally parroting the arguments of Job's friends.

Why do you anons think greek job is so much shorter than hebrew job? Was septuagint translated from a shorter hebrew manuscript? Or did the translater decide to trim out some of the repetition?
Translating this book is a nightmare too, theres so many words that occur once only in Job and nowhere else anywhere. My critical edition has the translator grasping for akkadian etymologies for some of these hapax legommenon.

>>17840895
it's believed the mt added outside traditional texts when it was compiled. for instance, much more background information on david being a shepherd boy, saul not knowing him, etc was believed to have been added later from additional sources. i can only assume the same likely happened in job.

>>17839208
Notably, God never reprimands Job for losing faith in him or being bitter. He takes umbrage with Job presuming God's intentions and believing that He has failed in his tasks.

>>17839204
>>17839251
Meaningless word salads. Bad things happen just as good things happen. You dont need to explode causes about it

>>17841183
>Make promises to bless and protect righteous men
>Intentionally break that promise to prove a vain point
>Righteous man gets upset and calls you out
>"How fucking dare you imply I didn't keep my word?"
Nothing stops God from simply not giving mankind a moral law, he can just watch as we act like animals with each other. Imagine being slavishly devoted to a lying demon. It's Indian tier. Want to know what happens when God makes big promises to people?

>>17841701
>Make promises to bless and protect righteous men
Weren't you BTFOd on this before? The covenant is about inheritance, salvation and a great nation. It's not about being healthy all the time. The closest thing that God promised to the Hebrews was that he wouldn't give them the diseases he gave to Egypt, which was death on every level.

>>17841701
>>Intentionally break that promise to prove a vain point
i'd like to remind you that this part of the story takes place in heaven. it's an anthropomorphism, which happens alot in the early old testament books, for story telling purposes.

>>17841754
>>17841746
I think you're responding to bait, bro. Maybe just hide the post, that's what I do.

>>17841685
What's bad? What's good? A flood washing away a human settlement makes room for thriving nature. Is it bad because the humans are suffering even though the plants and animals are thriving? Humans putting animals in tiny cages that they can't even turn around in guarantees we have an overabundance of food. Is it bad because the animals are suffering while the humans are thriving? Can animals even suffer or is that a human concept? Does the deer suffer when it's eaten alive by the lion? Is the lion being cruel? Does that mean it's okay for us to torture animals if it means that they feed us because that's just survival?

>>17839251
Life sucks ass. I would prefer the nothingness.

>>17841823
Why would you want more of the same if you're already unhappy with it?

>>17841807
God is needed to guide.

>>17841830
I want my consciousness obliterated, anon. I wouldn't think or feel anything if I didn't exist. I actually kinda do believe in God but I just don't think he gives a shit about me.

>>17841888
But if your consciousness is separated from your physical body, then you would already feel nothing, while still being able to observe and engage with something. I believe a lot of those near death experiences and think we've had so many throughout human history with many overlapping elements across different cultures that there has to be an echo of truth to it.

>>17841888
>I want my consciousness obliterated
You don't even know what that means, and God knows you want it for cringe reasons tied to your mortal nature which will pass in a relatively short time and then you'll look back on your past self and think of how stupid you were for wanting to be annihilated. And then you will thank God for keeping you, and you will remember these words.

>>17841888
Be righteous and God will love you. He left instructions on how to do it.

>>17841923
>>17841899
God is not real. The 'soul' is a nonsensical concept and we know from provable experience that the brain is the only thing that experiences consciousness.

That's the sad irony of it all. When you tards die you won't even have a microsecond to learn how stupid and deluded your belief in the afterlife really is. You'll just experience the instant endless blackness of the void without even a moment to reflect on your foolishness.

>>17842360
>experience that the brain is the only thing that experiences consciousness.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41bIJ7hYbLs

>>17842360
There are many doctors who have surveyed people with near-death experiences that can verify these people had no detectable heartbeat for a certain amount of time, which means an immediate ceasing of brain activity and they somehow still have memories for the five, ten, fifteen minutes they were officially dead. Just look up Jeffrey Long, he has hours of content that talks about it.

>>17840963
>saul not knowing him
The language suggests that he was pretending not to know, which would make sense for a person in his position as king. It could also be that Saul simply had forgotten who David's father was over the course of time, even if he remembered who David was, since Saul is asking whose son it was. It could also be that David himself had become unrecognizable to Saul at the moment that he went out into the battle, and that when David came back Saul pretended not to realize who he was, as a way of keeping up the facade in the presence of other people. Barring any of this, it could also be Saul's way of expressing incredulity at the feat of David. The answer could really be any combination of these explanations.

It's not really a contradiction since the text doesn't explicitly say that Saul did not know who David was, it just reports what Saul was saying to Abner. Even if you assume for the sake of argument that Saul really didn't know, it might simply be that David had become unrecognizable, as mentioned before.

>>17842360
>When you tards die you won't even have a microsecond to learn how stupid and deluded your belief in the afterlife really is.

Personally, I subscribe to the notion that, as the brain dies and its ability to process information declines, one's conscious experience of time will slow down alongside it. So what awaits us all at the end of our life is actually the moment of death, logarithmically stretched by our dwindling perception of time, which never quite passes the horizon of death into oblivion. So it is quite possible that, if one's dying thought is a realization that God is not real, then the supermajority of their conscious experience across (perceived) time is actually spent trapped in a state of dawning disbelief in God.

>>17842651
This is among the most horrifying conceivable possibilities, anon. Great job.

>>17842651
comments like this are how I know that demons are among the posters on this board

>>17838868 (OP)
Not necessarily.
But you can treat "God" as a synonym for "the reason things are the way they are" and that it is utterly maladaptive to blame reality for being reality. And that, for all the bad, there always could be good around the corner, so giving up is maladaptive.

>>17839915
And out of all the belief systems of the world, it is the most retarded

Even agnostics have my respect but atheists are just fuckin stupid

>>17838868 (OP)
As a chronically ill person, I fucking hate when normies constantly recommend it to me so I can "get over" the fact I'm in constant pain. If you know a sick person, recommend Paul's story about the thorn in his side instead.

SOREDEMO

I have come to turns with what I think Job means: it's more about perseverance and not losing hope even when your life is taken away from you. To not give up the hope that there will be a time when you are happy again. Being sick isn't God punishing you for not being good enough. Sometimes shit just happens and you have to get through it. I think that's the real lesson of the book.

>>17843028
>Being sick isn't God punishing you for not being good enough. Sometimes shit just happens and you have to get through it. I think that's the real lesson of the book.
You're exactly right. Just follow the structure. The story tells us, from the start, that Job did nothing wrong, and his life is being ruined because he did nothing wrong. All of his friends assume he must have done something wrong to deserve his misfortune, but the audience knows this is false. Job is never told the reason for his suffering, but the audience knows.

The whole thing is a parable about how suffering isn't always punishment, and you won't ever really know the reason. And people who think it must be punishment are being arrogant to believe they know the mind of God so well. That's it. The middle of the story matters. Job's friends are in the story for a reason.

>>17843028
I always recommend John chapter 9 in the KJV.

>>17843366
As a sick person, that one doesn't really help me because the guy got out of his sickness scott free in that case. If you want to help someone who is in deep shit, Paul's story is best. Just telling you what helped me. You don't want to hear about Job or the blind guy who were fixed when you're angry at the world.

>>17843388
I always liked Jesus' lines in the beginning and at the very end of the chapter. He is, as the ultimate authority, basically confirming that there is a point to it all. It wasn't the man's fault that he was born blind.

It wasn't his fault. Jesus Himself said it. That's the ultimate vindication.

He also said in another place, "to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little." Those who have been healed greatly when they meet Jesus will be able to praise Him that much more for eternity. That's how I came to terms with this passage. Maybe your perspective is just different than mine.

>>17843028
>To not give up the hope that there will be a time when you are happy again. Being sick isn't God punishing you for not being good enough. Sometimes shit just happens and you have to get through it. I think that's the real lesson of the book.
Good take Anon ...

>>17838868 (OP)
>god messing up a guy's life for a bet he made is actually good
Slave morality

>>17839194
God knows. The devil doesn't.

>>17843028
>Being sick isn't God punishing you for not being good enough. Sometimes shit just happens and you have to get through it

God is the cause of the problems in job's story, it's not punishment but the resultbof a bet; he really was just poker chips on a table

>>17839217
Atheists are masters of doublethink

>>17839239
Yeah but then they gave you everything back and a promise to see your dead children in the Afterlife
Doesn't sound terrible if you think about it

>>17839389
No, that's just your grandfathers

>>17843420
>it doesn't sound terrible to be horribly sick and losing your loved ones
Good sheep

>>17843425
You sound like a woman
There is a reason God spoke to Job and not his wife
Grow the fuck up little girl. Life is not rainbows and unicorns

>>17843413
The death of Job's children in the book of Job is just an example of a specific instance of the problem of evil. It's relevant because things like that happen in this fallen world all the time.

The purpose of it, in this one instance, was to cause the events of the book to transpire so it could be written for all eternity. From it, we learn much about God's purposes.

>Is Job some kind of spiritual filter?
The entire Bible is a filter. Paul said, "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

>>17839204
Job is a story that perfectly encapsulates slave morality. It's the ruling class laughing at you while they write fiction about how you should be happy in suffering, how you'll get a reward in the magical afterlife and how you shouldn't rock the boat and demand better living conditions. It's a propaganda masterpiece.

>>17838868 (OP)
There are many ways to interpret Job. As a critique of prosperity Gospel type preaching where you will be recompensed if you do Good, as an affirmation of it, as a ploy by the priests of Israel to stop their subjects from abandoning their God and cult in favour of more fruitful Gods and Cults, or a tale about perseverance. You can also use it as cope.
Though Considering Job is one of the few non-antagonistic Gentile Characters in the OT maybe it has a far subtler meaning that those.

>>17843442
That's not what Slave Morality is, though.

>>17843428
>god can torture us for bets all he wants!
Slave

>>17843446
It is thoughever. It tries to make suffering virtuous and teach you to know your place and submit to God. Since God isn't real then you need to submit to his earthly representatives, namely the priesthood and aristocracy. Your average peasant won't demand lower taxes, or a equitable legal system where the aristocracy don't have greater legal rights than him if you convince him via religion morality that he needs to submit to God/the elites

>>17843430
So why did god torture his follower fora bet?

>>17843428
You can't have the "shit just happens" mindset in christian worldview, everything is under god's controll; job is not about that either

>>17843442
You haven't even read Job lol

>>17843454
Slave Morality as a term doesn't have anything to do with that. It's only slavery morality if you specifically reject everything the masters stand for, it's a form of rebellion.

>>17843495
Slave morality is the promulgation of the idea that the masters are morally corrupt via their decadent lifestyles. It's trying to lure you in with promises of an afterlife where all of your earthly suffering is rewarded with paradise. It glorifies weakness, obedience and its worst part is that it causes the unfortunate person wrapped up in its beliefs to honestly think he has a better life than the aristocrat that spends his life in luxury, doing whatever he wants to whomever he wants. Job is a story made by the masters for their slaves specifically to instill these values into them. A slave that thinks he's free and that his life is better than his master's won't rebel.

>>17843453
Cry me a river gaytheist

>>17843465
Why are you misrepresenting my words? This is not talmud class. Christianity is very clear on God-Man relationship

>>17838868 (OP) You guys talk about Job but forget Jesus. You think Jesus led a really peaceful life until the last moments. This is not how Spirituality works. Your ego will always be broken for you to be able to see your real Self.

>>17843853
Jesus was in constant communication with God and knew the plan. Job didn't and even got lectured by God when he demanded to know what was going on. A big point of the story is that we're never going to know God's plan, so stop acting like you're entitled to it. And the unknown is scary, so there is a fearful element to it.

>>17843902 Jesus was not an Avatar. He wasn't born knowing he was God. First he thought he was a Messenger of God, after that he thought he was the Son of God, and then, finally, he understood he was One with God. He developed this consciousness and you can bet it was not always easy for him. Everyone will do the same, in this lifetime or in the next, or the next, or the next...

>>17843912
Jesus knew at 12 he was the son of God, ordained to do his mission. there is something to be said about assimilating with the "human experience" he felt sharing the nature of man and growing in wisdom as man, but his mission was always known.

>>17843456
In the end, all things exist for God's glory.

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
- Deuteronomy 32:39

"Is it fit to say to a king, Thou art wicked? and to princes, Ye are ungodly?
How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands."
- Job 34:18-19

"And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellers and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase."
- Daniel 4:34-37

"Where the word of a king is, there is power: and who may say unto him, What doest thou?"
- Ecclesiastes 8:4

>>17843912
>Everyone will do the same, in this lifetime or in the next, or the next, or the next...
The Bible doesn't teach reincarnation.