Why do people pretend that the National Syndicalist model wouldn't work as long as you excised the cancer of imperialism and war-mongering from Fascist thought?

>>17844322 (OP)
Going by the Italian experience, it could have worked had they overthrown capitalism.
But, being explicitly anti-communist, the party took power and re-organized all of Italy to its financial backer's liking, down to literally replacing locally elected functionaries with party people who explicitly ruled according to the wishes of local captains of industry.

>>17844322 (OP)
Because working class are not capable of running governments in a competent manner

>>17844322 (OP)
It's literally just a cope to try to make workers obey massa just like all of the other social-democrat drivel

>>17844340
That's an overly simplified meme analysis of the actual events, and there was a massive internal struggle between various elements of the Fascist government. See: Edmondo Rossoni.

>>17844349
It's not about obedience; it's about unity. A people all working together towards a common goal. The nation strengthened through empowering the individual, and the individual strengthened through empowering the nation.

>>17844351
I'm aware of not all Fascist being on board with it, but the outcome was as stated. People were imprisoned in their province if they were deemed a necessary work force for local industries and their means of political participation were culled in favour of estate owners and industrialists.

>>17844360
Which is why we should learn from the mistakes the Italians made, and follow the lines of thought that were obviously promising but were not able to be carried out because of the darker elements of the government.

>>17844367
That would be Socialism.

>>17844371
Syndicalism is a type of socialism, yes.

>>17844353
>common goal (buying massa a new yacht)
>the nation (controlled by your massa and friends)
>The nation strengthened through empowering the massa, and the massa strengthened through empowering the nation.
Fascists are just houseniggers

>>17844322 (OP)
Spain was pretty corporativist until Franco's death and its GDP per capita gre 5% a year for 2 decades on average

>>17844382
You're thinking of (((capitalism))) and (((communism))).
>>17844389
Exactly. The Nordic model borrows heavily from the Fascists as well.

>>17844322 (OP)
the establishment financial system attacks other financial systems through critique. With communism they sort of have an argument because so much of the economy boils down to people extorting one another and the efficiency shits the bed. Fascism very clearly worked economically but the caveat was that it wasn't actually different than bog standard imperialism. Germany's economic recovery was more due to the secession of war reparations to the west and the requisition of important industrial centers in western Germany. Ultimately one caan't actually critique fascist economics because there wasn't anything special about them at all

>>17844404
Hitlerism wasn't Fascism. I'm talking about Italy.

>>17844394
Im sorry you are a little slow but fascism is capitalism
It was literally a reaction to communism to create a more militant alternative to social-democracy to keep workers from revolting either by deluding them with drivel about "the nation" or beating them to death with truncheons
What is the "((( )))" supposed to say here, retard? That you are spreading your asshole for your boss?

>>17844405
It's the same thing. people try and pretend that they're different when they're not. Hitler too allied with industrialists, actually without him allying very early on with industrialists WWII would have never happened

They pretended to be the voice of the socialists but what they really were were liberals fighting the decay of their countries.

>>17844411
see
>>17844351
The "fascism is just capitalism" crowd is a neoliberal capitalist cope they use to try to hide the fact that their system of organization is far more authoritarian and oppressive than fascism ever was.
>>17844412
Spain wasn't imperialist, and their economic organization system was much closer to Italian Fascism than schizo Hitler's was.

>>17844412
>>17844415
>crowd
claim*

>>17844418
I don't see a break in the continuum of liberal economics into europe and the subsequent creation of socialism and communism. I propose there never was a break and the foundation is still understood from a liberal perspective. There's no real way to create communism and people will just rebuild what they know

>>17844422
Like I said, the idea that "fascism" is somehow just capitalism when the pursuit of personal profit is not the purpose of National Syndicalist economic organization is just a neoliberal smokescreen for the ruthless authoritarian centralization that characterizes globalist capitalist.

>>17844427
Except capitalism's goal was never profit, it was efficiency. England's entire industrialization was based around them turning technology into money printing devices. Invention, competition, efficiency. Socialists and Communists proposed that "capitalism" (which doesn't exist, it's mercantilism and economic imperialism) wasn't efficient because it didn't provide for the people sufficiently. It was always a debate of efficiency and socialists believed that replacing everybody with eggheads would be better.

What socialists don't understand is that struggle and wealth disparity is the mother of invention and leads to the development of of more efficient systems. Putting a socialist in charge of a capitalist system doesn't make it socialist, it makes it less efficient.

>>17844415
>The "fascism is just capitalism" crowd is a neoliberal capitalist cope they use to try to hide the fact that their system of organization is far more authoritarian and oppressive than fascism ever was.
Neoliberalism is a synthesis of liberalism and fascism, thanks for playing

>>17844432
Except our economic model isn't fascist in the slightest, and authoritarianism has existed for thousands of years. Liberalism has always just been a mask for aristocracy.
>>17844431
>the system of economic organization that is based around extracting as much profit as possible doesn't have profit as its primary goal
lol

>>17844431
Genuine mental retardation that doesn't hold up to any amount of scrutiny and relies on hallucinating magic entity spririt animals following some grand plan while the reality is just a crowd of retards trying to maximise their personal gain.

>>17844437
"Capitalism" is reality, socialism is the proposed reality. Capitalism is more real than anything socialists ever wrote and capitalism was invented as an idea by socialists!

>>17844439
Meds! You are hallucinating
When you sober up, go take a philosophy and history course so you know what are you talking about

>>17844439
Human flight was just a proposed reality until it was reality.

>>17844443
Marx, the great social critic, invented capitalism as a philosophical idea and mostly just used it as a swear word. He didn't actually understand anything anything about economics besides greed

>>17844445
Marx didn't invent the term or even use it lol. You're thinking of Proudhon and Blanc.

>>17844447
Do you not find it interesting all these men were essentially social critics complaining about the state of society?

>>17844450
I'd probably find it interesting if I were very stupid.

>>17844456
Continental philosophy was underdeveloped and they had industrialization forced upon them by the british, this is why "socialists" were born, which are basically just very vocal complainers

>>17844460
And they inspired men of action like Mussolini to do something about it.

>>17844463
"Seizing the means of production" was grabbing ahold of the burgeoning industrialization and trying to create something better with it. Admirable, but ultimately fruitless for surpassing the status quo. In no small part because of the sheer development of western financial institutions

Then again even Lenin only proposed to create a system exactly like the British, ruled by a central bank

>>17844468
Which is why I'm a Fascist and not a communist.

>>17844470
And yet fascism is just a tool to hamstring socialists

>>17844472
Source: your own opinion.

Are you retarded?

>>17844473
Hitler was military intelligence who was tasked precisely with essentially hiring as many unemployed disgruntled socialists into their famous illegal army to fill their bellies so they couldn't be used by communists to destroy germany

>>17844432
Fascism arose precisely against classical liberal regimes precisely to defend the individual against the abuses of social elites and markets, and it also opposed communism because it still believed in the core ideas of liberalism and economic rights broadly within the parameters of "capitalism", such as private property, enterprise law, market economy, etc., but all kept under the scrutiny of the State to prevent the domination, for its own benefit, of an elite economic class over the general population and therefore over the individual.

>>17844479
see
>>17844405

>>17844411
>communist retard and his retarded failed theories

>>17844484
>not real fascism
Didn't Mussolini seize power the same way? Scaremongering about communist takeover in the north?

>>17844482
And that's exactly why the term has been bastardized and demonized by the people who own our economy and government. They don't want Americans to realize how true Fascist ideals are entirely compatible with individual liberty.

>>17844488
Mussolini was a socialist labor organizer who understood that communism is a spiritual and sociological dead end that doesn't empower people, but he was still a socialist who detested capitalist profiteering and lies.

>>17844492
If being a socialist is just being a socially conscious person about the detriment of unchecked industrialization I think everybody in the world are socialist

>>17844494
Most of the US's infamous think tanks were originally created by industrialists to make the world a better place, but have since been derailed

>>17844494
Except plenty of people are capitalists or sympathize with capitalists and do not care about anything about endless growth.

>>17844506
"Capitalists" are empiricists, "capitalism" came from the land of empiricism. They need to see to believe

>>17844508
they take great insult when you propose something without evidence

>>17844508

>>17844512
That is the ultimate reason why socialism failed, it can't convince empiricists it's better

>>17844488
>Didn't Mussolini seize power the same way?
The March on Rome was a success, actually. The Black Shirts literally took control of the North and successfully isolated all possible forces of resistance. So was the internal war against communist agitation and organization.

The Beer Hall putsch was a failure, Hitler literally threatened his hostages with suicide to get them to hand over power to him, but they gladly took the chance.
He eventually won by means of a long march through the institutions and could only begin to tackle communism after the Conservatives handed him the keys to the castle. Before that, he had to tell the provincial orgs to tone down the Antisemitism, simply because socialist counter-propaganda on that issue was absolutely tea-bagging their election results.

>>17844508
Except they see the damages unchecked profiteering causes and continue with it anyway.

>>17844523
Empiricists see the whole system, not just the starving and dejected. Their ultimate concern would be how to lessen the suffering of all, but they understand how flawed human decisions are and know that taking a single thing out could not only actually increase the amount of suffering, but cause unforeseen social consequences that can't be fixed

Like open heart surgery

>>17844530
What you call "empiricists" everyone else correctly sees as delusional narcissism.

>>17844340
The centralised state monopolies were actually a reason why Italy was so shit at arms manufacturing. Instead of multiple ma ufacturing companies who could compete for ramped-up war time production, you had a sluggish monopoly who only made what they needed to be profitable.

>>17844536
I wouldn't doubt the 200 IQ chads that created empiricism were a bit anti-social

>>17844482
>Fascism arose precisely against classical liberal regimes precisely to defend the individual against the abuses of social elites and markets
Lol
Lmao, even
It arose as a way to organize and recruit retarded freikorps-style gangs to put down socialists threatening the liberal order

>>17844540
Then again, the "rationalists" which gave rise to socialism were far worse

>>17844482
>Fascism arose precisely against classical liberal regimes precisely to defend the individual against the abuses of social elites and markets
Well it was born half-cooked then, because that was the first thing it failed at.

>>17844550
What is human existence but a vessel that observes. As soon as humanity starts thinking more of itself we start killing each other and loving it

>>17844540
You are not a serious person.
>>17844546
>>17844552
Source: you made it up

>>17844583
>Source: you made it up
Hitler made it legal for business owners to beat their employees. Also slavery.

>>17844583
A common theme with actual 200 IQ philosophers was that they were anti social. English philosophers, being the most technologically advanced, poured this intelligence into the scientific method. And saw technology and invention as the fruit of industrialization.

People like Descartes were smug narcissists that thought reality was as they dictated because they dictated it. This is where socialism come from

>>17844598
Are you an LLM or something? How many times do I have to tell you that we're talking about Italy?

>>17844603
You act like philosophy begins in the 1600s and ends in the 1800s.

>>17844607
it basically does

>>17844598
You are talking to chuds with massive daddy issues and leech to any authority figure as a surogate father who also think that child abuse is good.
Mentioning this will only make them scream "based" and go masturbate.

>>17844609
I'm more interested in the economic organization that National Syndicalism produces than worshipping some figurehead who made plenty of mistakes.

>>17844615
Seeing as that italy, spain and portugal were liberal their established power structures simply adopted what was convenient for them from syndicalism

>>17844621
I don't think you've done much reading on the structure of the Italian economy in the 1920s.

>>17844604
We already mentioned Italy's issues further up ITT.

>>17844628
No, you didn't.

>>17844626
Were they still trading commodities like wool to other districts as their main source of economic activity?

These kinds of discussions about the economics of fascism or even almost any historical regime or even current regime are futile and almost never in good faith with just because leftists will claim that any minutiae was evidence of the reactionary conspiracy of big business against the proletariat to stamp out True Socialism™ and then on the other side you have the conservatives and libertarians who claim any government oversight or involvement in the economy is Communism. And of course they will hide or make excuses for the elements of the other in the success stories of their side like the successful capitalist reforms in China or government controlled economy of Singapore. Nobody ever cites any laws of the time, economic statistics, or any real evidence. Only pathetic gotchas, logical fallacies, and pointing to isolated trivial factoids trying to make them more important than they are and saying "woooow you didn't know that?". It is fruitless to discuss this.

>>17844640
Maybe you're right. : (

>>17844632
>>17844340
>>17844360
The Fascists turned Italy into an open air prison-industrial complex.

>>17844626
Everything pertaining to Italy after WWI also pertains to Germany. Fascism was a tool to prevent a communist revolution. It had less to do with capitalism and more to do with people being pissed off and hungry

>>17844657
Only someone who has done absolutely no research into the subject would believe this.

>>17844662
To the contrary. The more I research so called socialism the more I realize it's just bog standard populism

>>17844664
Okay, what specifics work have you read that were centered around the progression of the Fascist movement in Italy and the specifics of its economic and government organizational structure?

>>17844598
Hitler expanded workers' laws.

>slavery
of Slavs, not Germans

>>17844677
The fact that fascist movements were simply counter revolutionary movements to prevent communist takeover and that communists had no real game outside of recruiting actual starving poor people

>>17844687
That doesn't answer the question.

>>17844688
The answer to your question is that I know enough about human nature and the development of western philosophy to see a grift when I see one

>>17844689
I'm not familiar with that one. Who published it?

>>17844692
Some guy who wasn't convinced by propaganda and looked at the actual conditions on the ground

>>17844696
How do you know the actual conditions on the ground? Who accounts are you referencing?

>>17844692
>>17844696
Whose*
btw, if you actually want to read up on how the Italian Fascist state was organized, I suggest this article from Political Science Quarterly by Herbert Wallace Schneider, a non-Fascist American writer who visited Italy in the 1920s. It's about as unbiased of an account as you can get. https://www.jstor.org/stable/2142785

>>17844698
Humanity is a constant in every historical situation. There wasn't some magic formula in Italy that made them fascist besides the presence of revolutionary communists

>>17844681
No he didn't
He took them away and made their purchasing power go down
The average german was eating less, working more and was in worse health
For fuck sake the average height of children was falling compared to
>muh ebil weirmar
even before the war started

>>17844700
>claims to be an empiricist
>rejects facts in favor of vibes
lol

>>17844431
The purpose of a system is what it dose.

>>17844704
Facts like the establishment simply adopting power consolidating measures from socialists in order to save itself

>>17844711
cite your sources

>>17844713
Syndicalism was never actually implemented

>>17844719
cite your sources

>>17844722
Infighting in the movement, a general movement towards moderate liberal policies, ousting by socialists, the general push of communists and socialists for violent revolution culminating in the rise of fascism

>>17844726
>doesn't even know what a citation is
k

>>17844735
I mean just generally it doesn't look like syndicalism had any sort of presence at all in Italy

>>17844738
based on what research?

>>17844743
Based on the fact that it was smothered in its infancy

>>17844747
You know it's okay to just admit that you're talking out of your ass and haven't actually read much about a topic, right?

>>17844751
If I was talking out my ass you'd be able to refute my claims on something as concrete as syndicalism

>>17844755
see
>>17844699

>>17844757
This reads like apologetics for Mussolini not implementing actual syndicalism while taking over the syndicalist movement to obtain power

>>17844778
Which parts specifically do you feel illustrate your point? What are your refutations against those sections?

>>17844782
I'm not seeing any actual talk of structure I'm just seeing the author talking about how the fascists embody syndicalism without actual implementation. Was there any actual power wielded by the syndicates? The author says only one and it was dissolved as soon as it posed a problem

>>17844787
Have you finished the piece?

>>17844792
No I don't like reading propaganda. What actual power did the syndicates hold over Mussolini?

>>17844793
>impartial foreign observer describing reality as it was
>propaganda
How old are you?

>>17844796
He's definitely not impartial, he's an American fascist

>>17844640
>and then on the other side you have the conservatives and libertarians who claim any government oversight or involvement in the economy is Communism.
Yeah but when the Italian fascists actually did take power that was their position. They wanted to reduce the role of the state in the economy as much as possible but expand it everywhere else. This wasn't even a secret or anything.

>>17844804
>he's a fascist because I say so!
It's very funny how self-claimed "empiricists" are always the most outwardly biased and delusional.

>>17844808
source: you made it up
final (you) from me

>>17844809
He's a fascist because he's a German from Ohio and went to the Columbia school and studied pragmatism. He's a fully indoctrinated utopian hippy that would believe whatever you fed him. Obviously so because he's giving the benefit of the doubt to Mussolini in his implementation of worker enfranchisement

>buzzwords and cope
lol, have a nice day kiddo

>>17844820
Maybe someday you will realize contemporary accounts are as infallible as 4chan ass pulls

>Fascisti cannot at the same time serve the cause of Masonry and that of the Nation.

>>17844834
>Oh no are those people meeting in buildings not designated for worship of Christ? Must be a conspiracy

>>17844681
He introduced the Fuhrerprinzip into labour law. He literally, legally made the owner of the company a tiny ass dictator.
He made unions, works councils and strikes illegal and centralized their role in the Deutschen Arbeitsfront. The DAF explicitly represented the NSDAP's political aims for the industry at large though, not the worker's interests though. All it inherited from labour unions were the financial assets the SA stole from them.
He limited freedom of occupation by 1935 and eventually abolished it completely. Forced labourers were imported from across the non-German parts of the Reich and slavery filled the bulk of the work force in forestry and quarrying. The lack of labour in agriculture was filled with German children, even.

The only thing Hitler actually expanded were environmental protection laws. The Green party doesn't want you to know this.

>>17844859
The Catholic fear of masonry is a very interesting side effect of their industrialization

>>17844681
>>17844869
Hitlerism wasn't fascism.

>>17844875
Fascism is nothing but liberal imperialism

Fascism is the future.

>>17844340
>explicitly anti-communist
This is actually a sensible decision for nationalist socialists as internationalist socialists are almost always subversive due to the emphasis they put on internationalising the struggle.

>>17844876
You'd have to be retarded to believe that.

>>17844886
The guy who made this test IP banned me from a website he admins

>>17846602
It's true, fascism was a reaction by the liberal establishment and industrialists to prevent a communist revolution. Communism of course only taking effect in countries torn by war meaning the solution to communism is nationalism because it solves the state being weak and prevents the communists from overthrowing it

there's no other purpose for fascism

>>17844347
Spbp
Wish people actually had the balls to realise how retarded most of the working class is

>>17844322 (OP)
Both fascism and communism were attempts to prevent sexhavers from hoarding too much pussy under liberal democracy. Communists were sexual Reaganites who believed individual emancipation would make pussy trickle down while fascists cracked down on personal liberties and made women dependent on men to ensure the average man would have sex

Luigi manigoni

>>17844322 (OP)
>imperialism and war-mongering
Whats actually wrong with imperialism and war mongering?
You dont believe in God, you dont believe in objective morality, why does it matter if one has a will to power?

The only explanation I can think of is youre a slave-morality type who knows theyd be defeated by a fascist power and so you want to hedge your bets against fascist aggression by convincing them not to aggress you.

Commoners are simple

>>17846738
but I do believe in God

>>17846714

>>17846738
I appreciate it when subhuman sociopaths like you make themselves clearly known, makes it so much easier to excise you fuckers from civilised society

>>17844322 (OP)
>>17844340


No matter the system, if there are no real counterweights against the executive power and its aides, then the system will inevitably fail on the middle term.

>>17844347
>>17844353

Also as long as social media exist as a source of information with all idiots speaking with a loudspeaker no system will escape ochlocracy and idiocracy

>>17844422
The western democratic system is Kuck3d and is collapsing In real time in into oblivion into our eyes now due to all being a big ass popularity contest and monkeys gonna monke. plus several other factors specially jewish lead mass immigration, AIPAC and media. Good thing is after the collapse the jewish led system wont be able to justify itself as we are seeing with low education and brain zoom-zooms going full antisemite on campuses and even attacking immigrants in Spain or doing Luigis

Jews themselves will pull the plug on the (((social medias)))

>>17844415
>no response
stormfags confirmed more retarded than commies

>>17846874
>No matter the system, if there are no real counterweights against the executive power and its aides, then the system will inevitably fail on the middle term.
retarded historical oversimplification
you are a fucking midwit

>>17844322 (OP)
Its all goes to resource, material and manpower, no matter the ideology it always will lose if it don't have sufficient, same goes to democracy, liberalism, etc... this is pure cope from both parts to say ''le best system''.

>>17844738
>>17844747
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. If you genuinely want to learn about the topic, best source on Italian syndicalism and Fascism is "Syndicalist Tradition and Italian Fascism" by David D. Roberts, its a detailed description of how a significant segment of Italian syndicalists evolved into Fascists and of their views.

>>17847737
I love how Kurt Erich Suckert keeps popping up in these, as his own political position is fairly murky in Technique of the Coup d'Etat. Beyond a general feeling that he's some kinda liberal, individualistic Syndicalist.

>>17844869
He had plans for substantial expansion of welfare post-war tho

>>17847737
>don't worry guys he never actually gave the syndicates any power
>but there were a bunch of fascists larping as syndicalists so that's fine
everything I read about fascist italy is cope, weren't the syndicalists who the fascists were crushing under their bootheel in the north?

>>17847776
That's just the generic postwar welfare program. Any place with money got that.

>>17847786
A lot of syndicalists were Fascists, but Mussolini co-opted and neutralized them eventually. Fascist Italy was then run as pro-business as any old African colony.

The Jstor link somebody posted describes how they got co-opted in some detail.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2142785

>>17847794
The "coopted and neutralized" part is largely non-sensical, because they remained one of the central factions within the regime, between which Mussolini (whose own views were heavily pessimistic and influenced by the belief in a need of generational ideological reeducation prior to institutional reform) mediated, and were involved in drafts of economic laws, training of new Fascist bureaucracy and development of ideology.

No remotely sane writer on the topic actually believes the second point.

>>17846932
prove it wrong niggy

>>17846714
I kneel, foid-chan

You can't really critique "Fascist" economic theory because it doesn't have a coherent economic theory. Its economic policies always devolve into "just keep doing capitalism" because economic concerns were always secondary to seizing power in order to violently prevent a leftist revolution.