Let’s talk about Jesus and his teachings and end this.

1) Gospels constantly cited by Christcucks weren’t written by people who really travelled with Jesus but by Greeks or others at least 30 years after followers’s deaths. This is academic consensus right now, not a fringe theory.


2) Paul never met Jesus IRL, in fact prosecuted Christians when he was alive

3) Jesus himself never wrote down what he preached

4) James, Jesus’s brother who would know Jesus’s teachings was ignored and Paul’s babble took center stage. In fact James fought with Paul about needing circumcision and other fundamental issues.


So when brainwashed brain dead Christcucks cite gospel for “Jesus said this”, they are citing what Paul said or what some rando Greek said while writing under the names of OV disciples( which in modern literary world is called a fraud).
No one knows what James the closest to Jesus know said or cares what he said. Same with no one knowing what OG disciples thought.

How does this stupid religion still survive?

If your viewpoint is “if it was fake and vacuous then how did it survive so long”, well we have islam surviving and it’s even more stupider as it involves some angel from heaven telling a pedophile in a lonely cave what god apparently believes in

>>17844370 (OP)
Why do any of your points matter?

>Gospels constantly cited by Christcucks weren’t written by people who really travelled with Jesus but by Greeks or others at least 30 years after followers’s deaths

Proof?

>>17844370 (OP)
1 and 4 are wrong... oldest NT script was from 60. AD by Apostle Peter. No one ignored Apostle James, God, trough James, gave us Liturgy. You present it as if Apostles fought eachother but they were one. Apostle Paul heard God's voice, but that was after resurrection. No, Jesus fidnt write... nut he also didnt just tell, he showed too.
Stop using foul words, they only invalidate you further and make you look bad.

>Paul never met Jesus IRL, in fact prosecuted Christians when he was alive
he met the risen Christ and the sight literally blinded him... that's not a mere apparition

>>17844370 (OP)
Unironically the most viable form of Christianity at this point in my view is some variety of Gnosticism x some variety of mythicism. (Though it's hard to imagine that this would appeal to nearly as many people)

In that perspective, the reason Paul's ideas could take off so hard at the expense of the other apostles is secretly because no one knew a historical Jesus, and so Paul's ideas won out on a relatively more equal playing field than most now imagine. The whole movement got started by mystical revelations and appearances like those of Paul's -- Paul was just a bit of a controversial latecomer. And Galatians 1:19 wasn't referring to James, the biological brother of Jesus, but James, a brother of the Lord -- to distinguish him as an ordinary Christian instead of an apostle, as Richard Carrier argues is a viable interpretation, though he still thinks that verse is some of the best evidence for a historical Jesus.

Though mythicism is supposed to be far off the table according to the academics, as, admittedly, an amateur, I think that's one topic they're mistaken about, though it's a long discussion. And although embracing mythicism might seem like a really absurd way to "save" Christianity, that really is how I'm thinking about it at the moment. For whosoever will save his religion shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his religion for Jesus' sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it?

>>17845645
>source? Paul of course
do you also believe mohamed or smith were visited and guided by angels ?

>772
do you believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead?

>>17845775
>do you believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead?

No

We at least know the original followers of irl Jesus kept kosher and the Jewish laws. As you'd expect from people who heard the rabbi preach

>>17845835


Exactly, original followers of Jesus who travelled with him were Jewish and Jesus himself was reading from Talmud and worshipping Yahweh. Christianity shouldn’t have existed, Jesus didn’t call for a new religion

>>17845769
Gnosticism is entirely fictional, made up in the 4th century by fraudsters.

>>17846322
That's a very bold take that goes against scholarly consensus

>>17846240
The talmud is the oral law and was written after the destruction of the temple; it's honestly not clear if jesus was reading anything at all, though tge authors of the gospels definetly read greek translations of the torah not the original hebrew

>>17845769
Occam disagrees.

>>17846240
Jesus didnt read from the talmud itself but a lot of the rabbinic arguments and logic in the talmud are demonstrated for the first time with jesus (the gospels are older than the mishnah). In matthew in particular he often does a "qal vahomer" argument where you take a weak principle and apply it to a strong principle. If god takes care of sparrows, he'll take care of humans. If you can help a hurt animal on the sabbath, surely you can heal a person. That type of argument is one of the fundamental arguments used in the talmud often.
Jesus is also the first person in history called a rabbi. Not to say other people werent called rabbi before, but the gospels are the oldest written evidence of the term being used.

>>17846383
I go back and forth on whether jesus could read. You wouldnt expect someone from rural gallilee to be literate, but as a teacher maybe he could read the scriptures. And youre right the gospel authors read the Septuagint for sure, Matthew has a deep knowledge of it. But lots of jewish authors in the same period like Philo also read the septuagint, thats not unique to early christianity. Sometimes Matthew will do a scripture citation that isnt anywhere in the known bible like "He will be called a Nazorean". Maybe its a paraphrase from isaiah based on the hebrew word nezer meaning branch, or hes quoting some text we dont have anymore. The latter could actually be possible, Jude quotes Enoch which isnt in the canon and maybe Matthew was reading some other apocryphal book.

>>17844370 (OP)
Most Christians are women

>>17846345
I belive in the hyper monad called the solodad. The solodad actually created the monad, and the monad is a false god leading you away from the truth.

>>17846240
>Jesus himself was reading from Talmud
Are you fucking high the talmud did not exist when jesus was on earth

>>17846240
>Jesus didn’t call for a new religion
Every scholar of early christianity has been saying this for 100 years.
Its the classic trope of the religion of jesus vs the religion about jesus

>>17845772
Yes. Fallen angels.

Let's not forget the guy who Christianized Rome and created modern christianity and made the first bibles didn't become Christian his whole life (christians claim he converted on his death bed or posthumously)|

He obviously knew something we didn't

>>17847335
And? Paul literally admits he has a demon attached and talking to him

>thorn in the flesh, messenger from satan

>>17847355
And it's precisely the discernment that is missing in Muhammad, who at first suspected that he's posessed but then said "nah fuck it, it's prolly all good"

>>17847352
All contemporary sources we have claim he converted on his death-bed, as was usual. The earliest non-Christian sources don't even challenge this claim. Might they have known something you don't?

>>17847363
And? Jacob wrestled with an angel of god and obeyed him as well.

Paul is not supposed to have a demon at all as a true christian

>resist the devil and he WILL flee from you

How do you know his experience in damascus is legit

Christianity fails its internal logic just like Islam

>>17846869
>Most Christians are women.

This is very deliberate.

Christianity is a slave religion with slave morality. It kept peasants loyal and it kept the women and children of a family loyal to the male head of household.

I'm convinced any smart man knows the religion is entirely fraudulent, but the sense of community, social structure, career opportunity, and it's ability to keep women docile (and family's whole); is actually the real reason they follow it.

A Christian woman will be docile and submissive, which is far more of an asset to a man than a "loose woman" of modern values. Is it all based on bullshit, absolutely, but Christianity reenforces natural hierarchies.

>>17847372
>>>And?
>>And so this proves my point.
>And?
Lol

I don't know that Paul "has" a demon. Thorn in the flesh doesn't mean posession as far as I've seen.

>How do you know his experience in damascus is legit
Great question, thank you for raising this. Paul traveled to the apostles and talked to them. They had not only every right to reject him, they had the bet motivation to do so - self-preservation. And yet, they heard him out and concluded that his experience checks out with the Jesus they actually knew on a level nobody else did. Exactly this verification process is missing in Islam, where a warlord saw some spirit and took it for granted that it's divine. A very typical case of demonic posession.

>>17847399
>this proves my point
Muhamad and Jacob wrestled an angel of god. It's not unusual

>Thorn in the flesh
He literally clarifies it's a messenger from satan

>Paul traveled to the apostles and talked to them
Ah yes according to the book written by Paul. Funny how nobody can validate his claim.

>>17844370 (OP)
You discovered oral tradition now ? congratulations, when you will discover that the bible was not written on day one ? /his members on its best...

>>17847352
>>17847418
You are just hand waving and writting incoherent babble, many such cases, sound almost a lunatic and schizoid...

>>17847423
I can feel your fear christ cultist lol

>puh puh please don't listen to any criticism of my fraud cult

>>17846860
> You wouldnt expect someone from rural gallilee to be literate
Some ancient cultures tended to have a higher literacy rate than others. For some reason ancient Arabia was very literate where you would even see nomadic Arab writing. If I remember correctly, ancient Jews tended to be more literate than say rural Romans. I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus could read, it wouldn't be so unrealistic considering his role.
Pic unrelated to the topic but exemplifies my point and is pretty interesting. Safaitic graffiti in Italy either from Arab traders or Arabs recruited to the Roman army.

>>17847418
>Muhamad and Jacob wrestled an angel of god. It's not unusual
What exactly is it that's unusual?
It is fairly unusual to assume that whatever spirit you encounter is from God point-blank. God talks to Jacob at multiple points before and after the wrestling, among other things confirming the name change that happened during it. Were you under the impression that Jacob was walking through the land, wrestled a man who told him he's God and there went the revelation to Jacob?
>He literally clarifies it's a messenger from satan
Which, again, doesn't mean posession as far as I've seen.
>Funny how nobody can validate his claim.
You mean besides Peter, who in his letter acknowledges Paul and his teachings (that he finds complex but valid)?

>>17847438
Were you under the impression that Jacob was walking through the land, wrestled a man who told him he's God and there went the revelation to Jacob?
That's literally what happened. The angel didn't even need to identify or validate itself before Jacob obeying it as god.

>possession
the verse saying a true christian can drive away demons definitively doesn't need possesion either. why would Jesus who drove out demons during his ministry GIVE a demon to paul?

>Peter
Jesus called him satan. Also why was the church built on paul instead of peter the rock?

>>17847457
>That's literally what happened. The angel didn't even need to identify or validate itself before Jacob obeying it as god.
And God validated Jacob's discernment. This is in every aspect different to Muhammad, who at first thought he's posessed and then did a 180 flip into "it's from God" without ever getting a confirmation to this day.
>why would Jesus who drove out demons during his ministry GIVE a demon to paul?
Again, I didn't see anything say that Paul HAS a demon.
>>Peter
>Jesus called him satan
Oh nooo..... lol is that what you thought my reaction would be?
>why was the church built on paul instead of peter the rock?
Peter affirms Paul. There is no instead.

>>17847418
>Paul traveled to the apostles and talked to them
>Ah yes according to the book written by Paul.
Paul's own account of this is interesting. In Galatians 1, he wants to emphasize that he is a true apostle because he got his gospel directly from Jesus, not a human, and he only reluctantly admits to talking with any other apostle three years after he was called by Jesus, as if that's a positive, not a negative. Then at the beginning of Galatians 2 he says that after *14 years* he went up to talk with the other leaders of the church in response to a revelation "to make sure that he had not been running in vain" which seems pretty weird. A *revelation* 14 years into his ministry led him to worry that maybe he was mistaken? Usually revelations are the sort of think that give you confidence in something, not doubt.

And then Paul says, "And from those who were supposed to be acknowledged leaders (what they actually were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those leaders contributed nothing to me." as if he has very little respect for the authority of the established leadership of the church.

There's a very awkward flip-flopping in his apparent level of respect for the apostles as authorities, and this leads me at least to wonder if the text has been interpolated.

>>17847472
Again Jacob didn't identify the angel he wrestled with either

Greek says angelos of satan. Its literally a demon

It fails Jesus declaration. We follow a Pauline church not Peter

You sound like you're just coping at this point.

>>17847495
And it also feels like the sort of thing that fits better with Jesus mythicism than historicity. If Jesus were a solidly historical character personally known by every apostle except Paul rather than a celestial being who revealed himself to select individuals, you'd think Paul would want to emphasize his close association with the other apostles as much as possible.

>>17847501
I've addressed all these points. Jacob received confirmation on who the Angel was. Muhammad didn't.

When you find the verse that shows that satanic thorn in the flesh is demonic posession, I'll be happy to look at it.

Peter affirms Paul in his letter.

>>17847530
The angel didn't identify itself

Do it yourself. You're wasting my time arguing when you have no idea what you're talking about.

Again Jesus declaration was Peter would be the rock yet we follow a Pauline Christianity

>>17847607
Does Jesus say Peter was to be the foundation of the church outside of Matthew? According to Paul, "On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel for the circumcised (for he who worked through Peter making him an apostle to the circumcised also worked through me in sending me to the gentiles), and when James and Cephas and John, who were acknowledged pillars, recognized the grace that had been given to me, they gave to Barnabas and me the right hand of fellowship, agreeing that we should go to the gentiles and they to the circumcised."

Though Mark and Luke do agree that Peter got his name from Jesus, the original meaning may have been a bit more modest, perhaps connected with Peter says in picrel, where it seems like Peter sees Jesus as the cornerstone, and every believer as another stone built on or around the cornerstone.

>>17847693
That passage from Paul is really weird in itself because it seems to imply that Peter and Cephas were two different people, though they're usually considered to be the same person just depending on whether the name is said in Aramaic or Greek.

>>17847731
E.g. compare with John 1:42, "He brought Simon to Jesus, who looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You are to be called Cephas” (which is translated Peter).

>>17847693
Maybe the section "just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel for the circumcised (for he who worked through Peter making him an apostle to the circumcised also worked through me in sending me to the gentiles)" there is an interpolation, like this journal article supposes: https://www.jstor.org/stable/43725070?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

That would just be one more thing to add to the pile of oddities in Paul's letters that make them seem thoroughly messed with, though.

>>17844370 (OP)
The Catholic and Orthodox Church have very rigorous academic traditions that directly acknowledge pretty much every theological or spiritual question one can have. Most of philosophy and epistemology comes directly from these two institutions, I promise you there is not a single question or quandary you can pose that hasn't been asked and answered a thousand times over. Start with Augustine or Aquinas or like the million other central figures to religious dogma if you are really genuinely /his/torically interested in the answers to these questions.

If you are just trying to bait people into a religious discussion, then just ignore them I guess.

>>17847935
>The Catholic and Orthodox Church have very rigorous academic traditions

I dont give a shit how many people bent their minds in twisters to justify Christcuckery, i am concerned with fundamentals.

At the elemental fundamental level, the gospels werent first hand accounts and not written by people who claim they are. Paul never met Jesus IRL and thats a fact.

Also views of James have taken the back seat with preference to whatever schizo babble Paul wrote. For Ex- Jesus was a devout jew and according to James wanted circumcision.Since James was much closer to historical Jesus i would have to assume that was Jesus's views too

>>17848068
>Also views of James have taken the back seat with preference to whatever schizo babble Paul wrote
Its well known paul hijacked christianity and the actual jewish followers of the teachings of jesus went extinct under the exponential growth of gentile christianity. The Ebionites were the last remnant of james and the jerusalem church.
Its a sad story where the followers of the rabbi become marginalized and declared heretics by the gentile offshoot.

>>17848159
>Its a sad story where the followers of the rabbi become marginalized and declared heretics by the gentile offshoot.


exactly what i meant, the current "Christianity" is a forgery, very far away from what the founder(Jesus) intended. Jesus was a devout jew who spent significant time in Jewish temple worshipping Yahweh

You can follow whatever you want but you dont get to subvert someone else's religion/teachings and then keep the same name. The current religion is a FRAUD

>>17847368
He lived a pagan his whole life while promoting the christ psyop. Converting on your deathbed means you werent christian lol

>>17844370 (OP)
Enjoy Hell.

>>17848178
>Yahweh
Pseud detected. Tick tock.

As you leave your body — you realize something is happening. You hear a sound getting louder and louder. Screaming. Weeping. Wailing. Terror and fear beyond anything you could imagine overtakes you.
>THIS CAN'T BE HAPPENING!!!
you scream. Your nostrils are filling with the awful stench of burning souls. Your face ignites from the heat. Flames are now blazing from your eyes, nostrils, ears, mouth — every opening in your body, flames are roaring out. Your body is sizzling and crackling from the flames.
Your body is now madly thrashing and convulsing from the horrible pain. "Why don't I die?", you scream. You begin weeping and gnashing your teeth with the millions. "When will this pain stop?" But you know it will never stop.
The darkness is so terrifying, it begins engulfing you. You feel something moving in the darkness. Something horrible is happening. "No! No! This can't be happening" you scream — as your worm emerges.

>>17848194

what God do you think Jesus was praying to when he spent all the time in that temple?

>>17848204
Definitely not one named Yahweh, a modern invention concocted to make the Lord sound ridiculous. Ever notice how it's not ONCE mentioned in the King James Bible?

>>17848208

Yahweh has been god of jews for a long time, why would i care what an interpretation of Bible in 1600s says?

Its funny i am neither christian jew or a muslim but i know more about Abrahamic religions than some christcucks themselves

>>17848219
>i hate God
Makes sense. That's why you believe in nonsense like "Yahweh".

>>17844370 (OP)
>This is academic consensus right now, not a fringe theory.
OH MY FUCKING SCIENCE, HECKIN' ACADEMIA SAID SO?!

>>17847375
Kys physicalist faggot.

>>17848178
What youre saying is right but i dont think it means christianity is a forgery necessarily. The religion about jesus doesnt have to be the same as the religion of jesus.
Buddha is a similar story where he rejects divine status or metaphysics and preaches ethics and philosophy but later he got worshipped and theres whole sects that venerate him. That doesnt make the buddhist sect a forgery, its just a separate religion that venerates a particular teacher.
Matthew 19:16–17 jesus says to get eternal life follow the commandments. He doesnt mention anything about himself or believing in his resurrection.
Tldr just because christians dont agree with jesus about how to get eternal life it doesnt make christianity a forgery. People can worship jesus while also not listening to jesus about how to get eternal life

>>17848202
Religion of peace and love

Also the bible teaches that heaven is a physical place in the sky

Since this isn't true either you can sybau

>>17848244

>>17848068
>I dont give a shit how many people bent their minds in twisters to justify Christcuckery

I mean if you don't care for the actual dogma of religious thinkers then why ask these questions at all? Just to throw /his/'s ten millionth tantrum about how heckin evil God is? Do you realize how this makes you look? This is like me asking why one boils water and then throwing a hissy fit when some one mentions microbes.

>>17848294
Because you shove your fraud religion into everyone's faces and threaten people who don't obey your religious narcissism

Hence you deserve to get shit on on every possible opportunity

>>17848255
Lol what's the matter

According to Jesus you can just fly up to the heavenly kingdom

Go rent a plane and join your jew god in his magic cloud kingdom

>>17848302
>>17848305
Those flames just got hotter. Have fun burning, rats.

>>17848313
No I'll just fly up to heaven when I feel like it. Later faggot.

>>17848302
There's no religious narcissism, the word doesn't even apply given that it is an organization of individuals, maybe you mean chauvinism? That also isn't really applicable given the influence the Churches of apostolic succession have over much of western thought, there is no academic tradition independent of Christian and particularly Latin influences. If you refuse to engage with the literature they have produced over the course of millennia and instead engage with slap fights with mentally unwell /his/ posters you aren't combating this "chauvinism" you are just flinging shit like a monkey in a cage.

>>17848321
Blah blah

You literally believe god talks to you and anyone who disagrees deserves torture lol what is that if not narcissism

I don't care about the millenia of fanfiction fairytales any more you care about zeus

>>17848343
>I don't care about the millennia of fanfiction fairytales any more you care about zeus

Most theologians, especially the famous ones, read and analyzed foundational pagan texts like the Odyssey and Iliad, Homer is still taught despite Greco-Roman paganism being a dead religion for thousands of years at this point. Just because you don't personally follow the religion or dislike it does not mean that the schools of thought which it created are useless. I have a feeling that you just want to yell at people you disagree with though, which is normal.

>>17845622
This isnt true, there are no 1st century manuscripts.

>>17848647
lmao I'm sorry you got duped the LLM threads on /pol/ but there are

>>17848682
Like what? All the manuscripts that make the cut off for 100-125 CE year mark are tiny fragments. I dont know of any fragments older than that let alone actually legible ones.

>>17848305
They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar.

>>17848787
Pauline epistles are the most often cited examples, all coming from somewhere between 60 and 90 CE, but there are plenty more first century texts from Judea contained in the Bible. Try and, in this case, get your knowledge from accredited sources and not some bot spamming this dog shit basket weaving forum.

>>17849869
Those fragments I mentioned are the Pauline epistles. Do you know the name of the actual manuscript(the fragment not the content). And I dont go to /pol/ or browse it

>>17846345
gnosticism is so pathetic, it took 2000 years for some bored rich class larpers to take it up after being refuted by christianity in the same century it was made. It's in the top 1 of KWAB religions of all time

>>17850622
Its certainly convenient how tons of Christian sects simply disappeared after the roman empire formally adopted Christianity and started imposing doctrine and killing heretics. Are we gonna act like Constantine and Theodosius were neutral parties?

>>17848318
You're so fucked. :)

>>17849869
Everything I read says the oldest manuscript we actually have of Paul's letters is a codex, P46, thought to be from around 200AD, and we're missing a lot of it, though interestingly it's thought not to have included the pastoral epistles based on the number of pages it originally contained.