Why has class consciousness been revealed to be such a gay and ineffectual cause to rally around? People will rather riot over their shared genitals or fear of vaccines than their shared class interests. Did people just grow out of class/labor politics after WW2 for some reason?

>>17847690 (OP)
Because classism is rarely the root of the ills plaguing civilization. A certain religious ideology purports that its people are held blameless for maliciously exploiting everyone else. Foreigners with no stake in the nation or loyalty to its people destabilize excessively. And other examples, no doubt.

>>17847690 (OP)
you mad the philly trash union gave up their strike? I'm impressed at their willingness to strike at all. It's fine to constantly move the goalposts and overton window in a conversation, but where working people are concerned they tend to make reasonable demands, eventually get what they want, and then go back to being loyal. Class consciousness to the point of destroying society isn't as popular because it has some issues.

>>17847690 (OP)
Who wants to flaunt being a lowly prole? Only for that fleeting moment in history when commies turned things on its head and made black white, up down, and the proletariat an aspirational goal instead of something you hope to leave behind.

>>17847690 (OP)
Maybe class consciousness has a million times more and more effective psychological and covert warfare waged against it compared to genital and vaccine consciousness.

>>17847832
Or at least it isn't likely to get much support from the upper class by comparison, and that's enough to tank it in the competition for attention.

>>17847832
Maybe supporting Hitler is really the right thing to do. A lot of powerful people are against it, and those Jews. Maybe if we kill enough we'll break through and everyone left will love it.

>>17847690 (OP)
Because class consciousness is false consciousness. Everyone at the biological level always puts their self-interests first.

>class consciousness

>>17848009
A quaint term, but taken to mean "awareness of the benefit of allying with the people with whom your interests align" it's still both relevant and useful

>>17848477
DUUUUDE my interests align with the whole WORLDbro

>>17848481
The interests of the super-rich align with the super-rich, and the interests of everyone else also align with the super-rich. There's no need for conflict, just do what they want and everyone benefits!

Because the only thing that actually matters in this world are values and behaviour. I've worked with lots of people who I have literally nothing in common with, who I want nothing to do with. Whatever shared interest we might have as co-workers is not even remotely enough to do something as extensive ass building an entire unifying identity

If you believe otherwise, you are completely disconnected from reality

>>17848523
They get sacrificed when a major disaster happens according to ancient custom and what you just said. It's not necessarily a fair system but it is growth oriented.

>>17847832
>saar da rich people are emitting magic propaganda rays at us to brainwash us saar

>>17848777
>Elon Musk paying people to shitpost on 4chins is "magic propaganda rays"

ok newfag

>>17848788

>>17848806
>a billionaire wouldnt pay $44 billion to control what's being said, that's crazy

>>17848988
Nigga nobody's trying to censor or hinder you from shitting on billionaires.

>>17847690 (OP)
because for some reason
>we should strike for better wages and working conditions
becomes
>we need to ban guns and castrate children and open the borders

>>17847690 (OP)
>OMG this guy has a job he is literally my brother who i would die for.

>>17847832
>vaccine consciousness

>>17848777
this was unironically intentional though, the creation of apps like tinder which are all owned by like 2 companies and the destruction of other places to meet women was intentionally designed to create modern day harems

>>17849003
you will do everything in your power to cope over being a virgin EXCEPT just admit that you have no game

>>17848996
Turns out "that's what someone who likes transvestites & niggers and wants to put women in charge would say" is the most effective way to counter "maybe we should stop giving more money to billionaires"

>>17848523
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zOVKTU4TJI

>>17849011
that's literally what they say, though. that's why they won't drop the tranny shit even though it's incredibly unpopular.
>>17849009
shalom

>>17847690 (OP)
>for some reason
The reason being getting absolutely everything they demanded, to the point where it's now ubiquitous and all that's left to protest about is genitals and vaccines. The fish doesn't notice the water etc.

>>17849018
>shalom
Shalom

>>17849028
Regular reminder thatin Jewish mythology Jacob wrestles with an angel and wins. In white mythology Thor turns into a woman and drinks semen.

>>17849018
The lie is that certain political positions belong together. They dont. Anti-trannie and pro-billionaire are 100% independent positions and it's 100% up to you how you want to mix and match them.

Only that hundreds of billions of dollars are spent on making you believe that if you want anti-trannie you also need to get pro-billionaire, because those two are a package deal.

>>17849040
both sides are pro billionare, but one wants to castrate kids, ban guns and allow faggots to exist and they hate white people

>>17849050
It's like you're actually trying to come up with reasons why any other position than pro-billionaire is untenable. Say after me: "I'm allowed to be against heaping money on billionaires and have whatever other opinions I want to".

If you cant grasp this one simple concept it's either a very severe case of battered-wife syndrome, or else a very severe case of paid shilling.

Because in a society that provides a means for the intelligent to change their class you end up with mostly the less intelligent trying to fight those with the majority of resources and power.

It is in systems where people are stuck in a low class which forces intelligent dangerous leaders to build up as rebel leaders in the lower classes.
In a system that lets them leave that class the lower classes end up with brain drain and remain ineffective because the most capable switch sides.
Then you end up with the smart preying on the dumb for a higher quality of life, and the dumb cannot escape it.

Then some jew controlled pro tranny and pro everything contrary to what made society work organization funded by upper class elites pretends to be their voice, and since they are dumb because the smart ones switch sides, they support them.

>>17849069
the side that is saying
>muh class consciousness
is riding on parade floats sponsored by JP Morgan Chase were they celebrate sodomy and castrating children

>>17849071
What part arent you getting. Billionaires are bankrolling -both sides- to delude you into thinking that you have to support their agenda or else accept X (=abortion, trannies, immigration).

Maybe when push comes to shove, in a two-party country, in the general election, you are forced to put your vote in favor of whatever imperfect platform you can get behind.

That doesnt mean that you, personally, have to support taxcuts on billionaires if you want to also be against genderfluid bathrooms. There are primaries, and there is what you say and stand for 364 days a year that arent election day.

>>17847690 (OP)
Socialism can only work in a nationalist context. You can only feel fraternity without your blood brothers. Internationalism leads to ethnic tensions which is used by Jews to keep the masses in a perpetual state of division.

>>17847690 (OP)
it seems like you already know the answer and are just starting a conversation
but it's obvious that identity politics have been very successfully co opted and aggressively pushed precisely to distract the lower classes from the real problem
and then you also have the useful idiots simping for their masters, like you see in this thread already

>>17847690 (OP)
The western proletariat was "bought off" as it were with Social Democracy in the post-WW2 years, which does a hell of a lot to squelch any class consciousness by tricking a large enough segment of the proletariat into thinking they've been allowed into the bourgeois (they haven't) through their "merit" that they don't want to rock the boat and get impoverished along with "those" people. Capitalism, and especially the Neoliberalism variant of it, however are unsustainable, and this state of affairs has been rapidly collapsing throughout the west, as the segment of the proletariat who previously thought they had been allowed into the club are now finding out that no, they were proles all along and the bourgeois never considered them as anything more than useful idiots to be betrayed and thrown away the minute they believed labor defeated. We are thus now seeing the western proletariat, albeit very slowly, starting to rediscover class consciousness as their material conditions deteriorate.

What would Marx think about vaccines and lockdowns?

>>17849111
The buying off isnt the problem. It's the reneging on the buying off, once communism was no longer around as a boogieman that could put the fear of God (or of firing squad) in our fatcat rulers

>>17849104
>Internationalism leads to ethnic tensions which is used by Jews to keep the masses in a perpetual state of division.
This

It's because communism and other class-based ideologies are difficult to sell.

>racism
"Browns are ugly and are stealing our jobs and raping our women!!!!"
>anticolonialism
"Whites are stealing our wealth!!!!"
>antisemitism
"Da Joos are shady and evil and conspiring against us!!!"
>feminism
"Men want to rape us!!!!"
>vaccine consciousness
"The vax will kill us and evil Bill Gates is using it to depopulate us!!!!!"
>electoral politics
"My candidate is le good!!! Yours is le bad!!!"
>religion
"My religion is le good!!! Yours is le bad!!!"

Whereas class is more complex and Marxists themselves can't reach common ground on anything. Normies do hate or envy billionaires but they don't know how to fix the class inequality issue and it's all kinda abstract and intangible.

>>17849104
Retard logic. By this logic literally every form of society larger than the city-state cannot function because of "ethnic tensions". Like saying Greece cannot happen because the Dorians and Ionians will never be able to create a common identity.

>>17849138
It's not hard to sell. It took over half the world in record speed and got to the brink of world dominance. Put the first human ever in space, etc.

But all the enemies of communism joined forces and managed to defeat it. After that marxism was a spent force and thus something new will eventually arise unless things stop getting worse.

>>17849149
Marxism only happened in apocolyptic hellscapes like pre-revolution Russia, and with the USSR it died because Stalin failed to transition the USSR to a peacetime economy leading to a bloated military industrial complex that consumed the government and turned it into an oligarchy. The west will NEVER be as big of a shithole as pre-Revolution Russia. I don't even thing modern Russia will ever be as big of a shithole as pre-Revolution Russia and that's saying a lot.

>>17849166
There was nothing apocalyptic nor hellskapey about pre-revolution Russia that was worse than most of mankind had to suffer for most of its existence. What changed was that the number of proles and their means of communication and means to organize themselves developed to a certain point, which Marx was the first - or at least the most prominent - observer to recognize. At the end of the day all he did was draw conclusions from the french revolution and the further developments since then.

>>17849171
>There was nothing apocalyptic nor hellskapey about pre-revolution Russia that was worse than most of mankind had to suffer for most of its existence
Nothing at all? No great big war?
>"the name of the winter battle in Masuria charms like an icy wind, or the silence of death. Men will ask themselves, have earthly beings really done these things, or was it all but a fable or phantom?"
Somebody stepped over your frozen corpse to say this, but it's not an apocalyptic hellscape?

>>17849301
You're missing my point, which was that for large swathes of mankind, life was always an apocalyptic hellscape, from the very first time someone put a crown on his head and forced the lower classes to follow his commands, or else.

The proles of ancient egypt didnt have better lives or longer life expectancy than those living under Nicholas II. But the latter could cause much more havoc and in fact revolt.

>>17849398
Being a peasant is very different from working 12 hours a day, 6 hours a week in a dangerous factory making peanuts. That you are so out of touch with pre-WW1 industrial working condition shows how successful the labour movement was in improving conditions.

>>17849398
No, most people were not affected by war. They didn't have industrial technology, that highly capitalist and exploitive phenomenon, to either lift them up OR to put them in situations like WWI, where tens of millions of people went to their horrific doom in unprecedented ways. The industrial era was therefore uniquely revolutionary, following only the previous era (the enlightenment)

>>17849113
>In summary, a Marxist perspective would likely support vaccines and controlled lockdowns as necessary to protect the working class and public health but fiercely criticize failing capitalists—including vaccine nationalism, profit-driven inequalities, inadequate health provisions, and ideological smokescreens blaming individuals instead of systemic exploitation and state complicity.
>The pandemic, in Marxist terms, reveals the irreconcilability of capitalist profit motives with the health and well-being of the working class, highlighting the need for systemic change toward socialism to prioritize collective life over private gain.

>>17849467
>vaccine nationalism

>>17848993
Socialists tend to cope with their ideas not being popular by asserting that it's because of capitalists preventing the socialists from reaching the workers. There may be some truth to it, but the fact of the matter is that most workers most of the time in most of modern history have not been class-conscious revolutionaries. That was also true when socialism/communism was more popular than it is today. The working class has never been particularly internationalist. There were three socialist Internationals. The first one only represented a few people and basically didn't matter. The Second International was mainly a European group of socialist parties that imploded in World War I. The Third International was the USSR, the communist parties, and some anti-colonial movements, and it had some early enthusiasm but the USSR shut it down because in fact the Russians realized that they weren't going to be helped by a world revolution.

>>17849166
>>17849171
People only make revolution like what happened in Russia and China -- I am talking about an armed insurrection (and thus civil war) on such a large enough scale to take over the government -- if people feel their backs are up against the wall and it's a matter of life and death. It comes from COMPLETE despair, and has also happened when these countries were undergoing / coming out of major wars with mass conscription where there could be large defections from the army (so you have revolutionary soldiers):
https://youtu.be/gAlm53y5Txw

Socialism has to mesh with the average person and answer the problems that are pressing on him. People can say Zohran Mamdani is just another Democrat in reality but he understands this in his own time, place and context:
https://youtu.be/JN_WPjwr7yA

It's not a subculture. If you want to be effective as a political preson you can NEVER be like "fuck these normies," which is a shitty punk attitude.

The cultural differences between classes are not as big as they used to be.
>>17849413
>No, most people were not affected by war
The soldiers, who were the most important bolshevik recruits, were.

>>17849470
This is real-existing vaccine nationalism:
https://youtu.be/aaqDLuERhWA

>>17849491
We were talking about premodern wars. WWI was uniquely bad because of modernity.

>>17848996
I still don't know why this happens.

>>17849141
The Greeks contrasted themselves with non-Greeks ("barbarians"), that's how they were able to unify.

>>17849070
This is it. If you're competent enough to organize and lead muh glorious revolution you're competent enough to be well off under the current system anyways, which despite what redd*t will tell you, is at least partially a meritocracy.

There's a reason communist revolutions are only successful in extremely oppressive non-meritocratic states (Tsarist Russia, Cuba under Batista etc...), they let all the disciplined, intelligent and competent people organize a revolt.

>>17849487
As Orwell said, "Some ideas are so stupid only intellectuals believe them". If you're not that smart you won't fall for communism/socialism, it's usually only midwits (average-above average intelligence, usually college educated etc...) that fall for ideas that are deemed "obviously wrong" to the general population, at the end of the day a random roofer in Kansas will look at the failure of the USSR, communist China, Cuba and North korea and come to the conclusion "this communism thing doesn't seem to work."
Midwits on the other hand

>>17847690 (OP)
because class is fucking retarded when non-Whites are invading your land and murdering your children.

Why cant lefties understand class war can be solved overnight if Whites werent under attack?
Whites are the only race capable of socialism because Whites are the only race capable of producing industrial revolutions.

If a race is not able to produce a mass proletariat it is not able to produce class consciousness.
Leftism will literally die on the hill of non-Whites and trannies.

>>17849569
All socialist countries today are non-white
>muh Scandinavia
Socdems are traitors

>>17849404
>>17849413
Nah, people had more reason to revolt, not less. Imagine living under fucking Genghis Khan - the Romanovs and WWI were cakewalk in comparison. Or the natives in America under colonization - they were pretty much completely exterminated or raped out of existence in many cases.

But they did not have the -means- to revolt.

There simply werent enough of them. Or rather, before the big migration to cities, they were too spread out, with no viable way to organize. The oppressive powers on the other hand were much more decentralized. Under feudalism you were oppressed by your local lord, but if you tried to resist him he would receive backup from the King and from other feudal lords. And from the church and potentially from Rome.

The game was 100% rigged and you had 0% chance of revolution. By the 19th century state power was centralized but the number of rifles it could wield was absolutely dwarfed by the huge number of proles concentrated in major cities.

And the system is even more fragile today. A couple of thousand committed guys could wreak absolute havoc bringing down the electronic infrastructure should they consider themselves in a position with nothing to lose.

And that is going to happen eventually, if 21st century libertarian tycoons like Musk are successful in getting their agenda (dismantling the welfare state) implemented.

>>17849584
"Living under" Genghis meant being a part of his horde. There would be plunder and good eating, what more do you want? At least do yourself the favor of an example that works.

>>17849111
>17849124
>>>17847690 (OP) (OP)
>The western proletariat was "bought off" as it were with Social Democracy in the post-WW2 years, which does a hell of a lot to squelch any class consciousness by tricking a large enough segment of the proletariat into thinking they've been allowed into the bourgeois (they haven't) through their "merit" that they don't want to rock the boat and get impoverished along with "those" people. Capitalism, and especially the Neoliberalism variant of it, however are unsustainable, and this state of affairs has been rapidly collapsing throughout the west, as the segment of the proletariat who previously thought they had been allowed into the club are now finding out that no, they were proles all along and the bourgeois never considered them as anything more than useful idiots to be betrayed and thrown away the minute they believed labor defeated. We are thus now seeing the western proletariat, albeit very slowly, starting to rediscover class consciousness as their material conditions deteriorate.
>>17849111

Because people are realizing that envious, divisive, greedy people who think class/inequality/capitalism is a problem like these idiots ARE the basic problem.

>>17849584
>yfw Jesus was an early revolutionary employing humanistic philosophy and propaganda of the deed

>>17849576
Those arent Socialists, they are peasant republics.
You know in your heart only Whites are capable of socialism and revolution, every communist revolution to date was a peasant revolution which Marx hated and said was not capable of bringing about true socialism or the end state of communism.
lefties dont even read Marx anymore they only want a brown utopia, completely ignoring the historical and material conditions necessary for revolution, socialism, and communism.

>>17847690 (OP)
Class is an abstract fucking concept, while you're hardwired to be hostile to people who look visibly different than you out of survival
This dude having a skin colour other than yours makes your monkey brain go
>I HAVE to keep this NEATHERDAL away from the local water stream or MY family will die of thirst
While a rich guy's could be any dude.
Plus, racial conflicts are easier to happen cause you got no way to defend yourself from your crazed neighbour, while richfags spend a considerable amount of their daily lives making sure nobody's gonna shoot them on the street and as a last resort, they have legions of goons in case it really goes to shit.
>I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half

>>17847832
An actual cope.
Support for Hitler has been steadily growing for years even though our entire society is basically built around preventing that.

>>17849764
China, with all its oligarchy and subservience to the West, is closer to achieving true socialism than any White country

>>17849085
so in other words, if you vote blue the billionaires still get everything they want, but I get gun control, trannies, faggots and open borders
sounds like shit

>>17849107
so then why don't the workers just drop the tranny shit and the gun control shit?
>>17849141
most of the conflicts in the middle east and africa are over ethnic lines

>>17847690 (OP)
The idea that the lowest caste of untalented workers can organize themselves into a block is absurd. Lower class people are lower class for a reason, they have negligible organizational ability.

The left wing revolutionary movements of the previous two centuries were organized by Jewish finance as a way to exterminate their elite goy racial competition. After the German workers stopped falling for Jewish tricks and became racial Socialists, the Jews abandoned communism as a viable power-strategy since lower class Whites could no longer be trusted as dupes, and Jews switched to racial replacement power strategy which eliminates the White working classes of the world.

>>17849503
/pol/ knows, /pol/ always knows

>>17849584
>Nah, people had more reason to revolt, not less. Imagine living under fucking Genghis Khan - the Romanovs and WWI were cakewalk in comparison. Or the natives in America under colonization - they were pretty much completely exterminated or raped out of existence in many cases.
you do know people fought Gengis khan and the injuns fought the US government right? and they weren't doing it over class. We didn't make the injuns work or pay taxes

>>17849882
National Socialism, not Left Socialism or Communist Socialism.
Their socialism is homologous in cause to Prussian socialism, not to Marxist-Leninism or Left Socialism.

>the loser class
>beating the winner class
el mao

>>17850270
Marx hated underdeveloped peoples, so there's nothing Prussian about it

When Russia was started mobilizing her army in WW1 Lenin actually thought the Russian peasantry wouldnt die for the tsar
Its really only after the war started going south that any idea of rebelling against the tsar was becoming popular

>>17847690 (OP)
Why do people care about class when you can just get neetbux? Like you literally don't have to be employed

>>17847690 (OP)
Because “class consciousness” only works in European countries that have extremely low mobility in their social hierarchies. It’s extremely difficult to argue for it in countries that have high social mobility where anyone who amasses enough wealth can become the new elite with time. When your social classes constantly change due to flexible metrics for entry it’s difficult to point towards a group. You also run into the problem that simply gutting the top isn’t enough to fix societal issues if there’s no plan of action being put forth that would solve it.
>there’s no food
>okay, let’s kill all the nobility
>there’s still no food.
You’d have to make a case that 1. you know exactly how to solve the core issues the current top fails to address and 2. things are so dire that your plan can only be implemented with the removal of the current top

>>17847690 (OP)
because proles are genuinely retarded

>>17849040
>No matter the system, if there are no real counterweights against the executive power and its aides, then the system will inevitably fail on the middle term.