To condemn suicide is the ultimate moral fraud, a sanctimonious lie told by a society that happily accepts manipulation, suffering, and the cold elimination of others, yet flinches at the prospect of an individual judging their own existence to be unworthy. This is not a matter of circumstantial sadness (a failed romance, a lost job, etc.) but a rational, ethical verdict against the very structure of life, a terminal condition whose fundamental state is pain and whose inevitable trajectory leads to moral disqualification. When the relentless grind of being erodes your capacity to live as a moral agent, clinging to life becomes the true act of cowardice, a base submission to biological instinct. The great philosophers, from Kant with his convenient asymmetries to Heidegger with his fear of truly owning one's death, failed to grasp this. To choose your end is the ultimate act of moral agency, an overcoming of nature that is far more profound than mindlessly continuing to live at any cost. My non-being is my own negative patrimony, an inalienable right I need not earn and for which I need no one's permission. The real philosophical question is not why one would choose to die, but rather, given the structural horror of it all, how anyone manages to keep on living.

>>17847939 (OP)
>Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:13. Ready to admit you're wrong?

>>17847939 (OP)
Being suicidal is a distinct illness, and it's distinct from just standard depression despite what the general concensus is for some reason. You can be depressed without being suicidal and you can even be suicidal without being depressed (although usually this is temporary and is the result of either a side effect of certain drugs and sometimes as a symptom of things like internal infections)
As a society, we have made ourselves obligated to help treat illness and not allow patients to succumb to them. We cannot accept that allowing suicide to happen is a valid treatment for it, as the patient must die in the process. I believe we should condemn suicide even on secular grounds for this very reason. What countries like Canada are doing is sick.

>>17847942
U cannot kill yourself

>>17847939 (OP)
Not rational. Your life evidently covers a tiny fraction of space-time. All modern humans dare to dream far beyond their fraction, they dare to pick up their ancestor's tools. So if you use those tools to commit suicide, it's not really moral agency it's malign spirits of the dead taking you down.

Dead spirits are real in the same way people outside the room are real. They're abstract entities. Your brain can't tell the difference between a living person and a dead person in the abstract, anyone you know might've been hit by a bus since you last communicated with them. In the same way, dead things can come back to life. Records, writings or ideas left behind can sketch the figure of a person who isn't there, sitting in the chair across from you -- myself perhaps. Our subject is at the head of the table, older and authoritative. The dead man. His design is legend, his words are written in stone. The face and name you know well, yet still an ordinary man. Don't associate with statues. No, the dead man has human appetites, most of them beyond fulfillment in his position. You know ghost logic -- he can neither eat nor starve, neither live nor disappear. This is the plight of the ghost. After your body goes to the void, a ghost of you will remain here in this strange hall. What does he want most, being deprived of rest? What will thee want? To live again, the real way, but it will never happen . . . and the thoughts turn dark. I'm telling you this because voices of regretful dead overwhelm us as we get older. They regret their deaths, no matter how honorable, they want what you have. To them, nothing will ever be good enough because they speak from beyond the end. But anon, you are good enough to live a full life. Those who say otherwise are just dead, you don't have to think about them at all.

>>17847956
>I believe we should condemn suicide even on secular grounds for this very reason.
LOL cope.

>>17848104
He's right you crack baby

>>17847939 (OP)
True.

>>17848109
>you should live for soiciety's sake because... uhhhhh.... YOU JUST SHOULD, OKAY?!

>>17848114
Small problem: He's in Hell right now. I'll get my wisdom elsewhere.

>>17848114
said the trans kid

>>17848125
Meds.

>>17848125
TIL that it used to be normal for boys to wear dresses when little.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeching_(boys)
I wonder if that's a tradition anyone wants to RETVRN to.

>>17848130
why are europeans so autogynephilic?

>>17848117
Society messed you up, both by propagating higgers all over the land to take your birthright and also by filling your mind with existential dread unknown to primitive hunter-gatherers. It's unquestionably the responsibility of society to keep you from dying covered in poollution right outside the nest they birthed you from.

>>17848139
So your answer to society removing your autonomy is to undermine the one choice you actually *can* make with your life?

>>17848147
You get more choices by taking society up on some of its support offers, usually pathetic surrogates to replace what a good beating or week of starvation would provide in healthy circumstances. In return you get GODLIKE POWER.

>>17848114
>>17848125
>>17848130
Lovecraft's extended exposure to his mother and aunts after his father and then grandfather died when he was little may have done a number him psychologically, though, explaining some of his opinions. Interesting read: https://lovecraftzine.com/2013/11/14/mommie-dearest-h-p-lovecrafts-descent-into-maternal-madness-by-john-a-delaughter/

>Susie Lovecraft was an emotionally unstable person. She was histrionic; little things turned into grand psychological dramas. Her wildly fluctuating behavior, unpredictability, and constant verbal abuse (humans are verbal animals, words cut deep despite the nonsense about sticks and stones especially from parents) traumatized HPL. HPL lived in a household, where he constantly walked on psychological eggshells, to avoid outbursts from his mom. According to HPL biographers, Susie Lovecraft’s fear of change, and of the world beyond her household, was extreme.

Why would you want to lower the bar for suicide?

I don't want people I care about to off themselves on a whim, cuz they had a particularly bad day.
I want people to be really really disincentivized from suicide. Which condemning suicide goes some way in accomplishing

>>17848114
>>17848156
>HPL: says this shit, so afraid of mortality he doesn't go to doctor and dies age 46
>REH: writes about how great life is, blows his own head off
both chuds

>>17848158
Not OP, and I'm not sure OP is even saying they want that, but, since you asked... My preference would be to allow assisted suicide given a waiting period of at least a month, maybe a year, together with some amount of evaluation of what the person's problems are to make sure they don't want to die over something very easily solvable (perhaps requiring some fee to pay for that evaluation).

The main good I see in allowing assisted suicide is that it would result in a formal path to a quick, painless, certain, and psychologically manageable death for those who want it, which is a fair bit harder to get (or maybe impossible to get for very disabled people) with a DIY approach, risking a not totally uncommon scenario where someone tries to die, fails painfully, is subject to lots of medical treatment trying to rescue them, has to spend weeks locked in a psychiatric ward against their will, and maybe comes out the other side permanently disabled in some way if they weren't already to begin with. I myself have felt that I would rather be dead than alive for many years due to chronic illness, but I've always been at the awkward middle point where, although I do think I would rather be dead, it isn't quite so bad that I'm willing to risk a DIY approach. So I've just been kind of a useless parasite -- not so much on society, but on myself. Not able to do much of value to myself, basically miserable every day, not wanting to be here, but still unfortunately alive.

>>17848196
It's not the healthiest outlook because the former is an ideal of the future and the latter is a possible reality. If you give people the option of a controllable solution versus an uncertain future, they'll want to take control even when it makes no sense. It's more true to the reality of consciousness for people to live ecstatically for as long as possible, rather than let considerations like cost or family vacation plans define your end of life. Extreme chronic pain and terminal cases might be an exception but it's not easy like the EU wants it to be.

>>17848196
why not just take increasingly insane supplement doses that either kill you or cure you

Suicide doesn't make any sense because at that point you might as well just take a bunch of drugs, smoke a bunch of weed, drink lots of alcohol, because you literally have nothing to lose if you're just going to kill yourself otherwise anyways

>>17848216
most suiciders aren't cool enough for weed, either total losers who wouldn't even know where to get it or working man alkies

>>17848079
>>17848114
pottery

>>17848213
I see no reason why any supplements would cure me and overdose/poisoning is generally one of the least reliable ways to try to die except with specific drugs that as far as I know are hard to get. Part of my aversion to actually trying to kill myself is definitely irrational in my opinion. If there can be people who irrationally try to kill themselves, then why not people who irrationally don't try to kill themselves? But another part of it is that having been in visceral discomfort and pain for so long has given me a really strong sense of how much my body can torture me, and as far as I know I haven't reached anywhere near the maximum-suffering level which my body could subject me to if it's damaged further, so to some extent I think my fear is more rational than the average person's non-fear. Maybe if I could get ahold of some fentanyl it would be easy to die though.
>>17848218
I (>>17848196) just get psychotic from weed.

>>17848286
you sound a bit checked out. That anons point was you can always enjoy vices. Realistically, you have options to escape pain or find euphoria. If not you, if you're just in chronic pain every day and your joints are slowly pulling apart, then you're the exception.

>>17848322
I guess I'm the exception

>>17848216
>Implying there aren't millions of people doing this right now

>>17848336
Do you actually have something physically wrong with you or just constructing a philosophical position that would support suicide?

>>17848365
The nuanced answer here is that *I'm* 100% confident that there's something physically wrong with me, and I've had what feels exactly like physical pain to varying extents just about every day for a decade that started fairly abruptly along with other neurological/sensory symptoms some of which are worse than pain. BUT I've never been able to get a diagnosis for it, and ordinary pain medicine, to the extent that I've been able to get ahold of it, doesn't seem to do anything for it, so I'm mostly left out in the cold. It's a really long topic to explain in detail though.

>>17848414
Does that sound like a case for assisted suicide to you objectively? It sounds like a medical mystery to me, you could be one pill away from complete relief. Actually that's the less likely option, I think you know the more likely possibility is something psychosomatic which would require only standard medications to treat. In other words, something that absolutely should not be given the authority of MAID.

>>17848417
It does sound like a case for assisted suicide to me objectively because I'm pretty confident at this point that I'm never going to get a treatment that works. I spent several years dealing with doctors including psychologists and psychiatrists, trying various things, and eventually I gave up (partly from struggling to keep health insurance). I also lost all my friends from not being able to do things, and my family wouldn't mind at all if I died. So at this point even if I did miraculously get better I would still be restarting from a life that was mostly not recoverable at this point to me.

But then I think that ideally a reason shouldn't have to be provided for choosing assisted suicide, because if anyone should have the right to judge whether their life is worth living, it's the person themselves, especially if they have a consistent opinion for many years—though I know there are some people who would make the decision on impulse against their long-term judgement, hence why I believe there should be a waiting period.

>>17848448
In your opinion as supreme authority on your own life, which is it? Medical mystery, simply undiscovered, or psychosomatic? There's a big difference because some medical mysteries really won't be solved in time for you, but if you accept living with an unmedicated psychosomatic illness that's on you.

>>17848462
I'm effectively 100% confident that it's not psychosomatic based on the way it started and the way it works, though since it does seem to be substantially neurological and not incredibly, it's impossible to talk to a doctor about it without them constantly suspecting that it's psychosomatic and you're wasting their valuable time, which is one of the reasons I have politely decided to stop bothering them and accept my fate.

>>17848484
*and not incredibly easily recognized or tested for

>>17848484
*Also the way SSRIs and mood changes don't seem to influence it at all.

>>17848484
Politeness is an ethic I most definitely hold to be worth less than life. That kind of thing is what makes a psych diagnosis likely, not the mystery pain with no cause, but how it seems to fit into a larger worldview of defeat and persecution. Most people with a life-destroying condition would be chewing through different diagnoses and medications, psych and non psych, leaning on loved ones for support. If family and friends abandoned you over this, there's minimally an attitude problem, but to a complete stranger it sounds like your issues are all one. According to my theory, you're not a good patient and you haven't done due diligence on the psych track. If I'm wrong and you've tried the whole cabinet of antipsychotics and therapies, alternative medicine WOULD be waiting for someone whose life was ever good.

>>17848510
This sort of response seems to be the default response of people who do mostly enjoy their lives, are healthy, and have faith in other people. You're expected to keep trying until they think it's appropriate for you to give up, which is never. And that's perhaps one reason why I think a reason shouldn't have to be provided for obtaining assisted suicide.

>>17848556
I wonder if allowing assisted suicide would end up being natural selection for happier people over the longterm rather than just natural selection for having psychological difficulty with hurting yourself and taking dangerous risks, which I think is a large of what's been selected for throughout most of our evolution.

>>17848216
Drug addiction is just another form of suicide, except slower and with some moments of bliss

>>17848556
How are we supposed to tell the difference between total exhaustion and pathological noncompliance? You need to budget your energies so that interactions with people aren't such a chore, otherwise no one can help you. Certainly no one will give you keys to the suicide pod.

>>17848639
>How are we supposed to tell the difference between total exhaustion and pathological noncompliance?
I guess you just have to trust what someone tells you. Currently society has mostly decided not to do that when it comes to this topic, though I think they should if only because it would mean less suffering and more respect for autonomy, at least in some proportion for each.

>>17848694 (cont.)
To be honest the whole idea of "pathological non-compliance" sounds to me a bit like a modern day drapetomania, though without having given it too much thought I'm hesitant to say for certain that there's *no* case where it might be appropriate.

>>17848694
>>17848713
Wrong. Every good treatment-seeking patient, justified or not, carries with them a sheaf of failed past atttempts. That's how your prove your good will. You've been so cagey about these supposed efforts that I can only guess they amount to an SSRI prescription and a bottle of pills that ended up getting thrown out.

There's no situation, ever, where trusting the word of a complete stranger is scientifically reliable. That's not how we do things. You don't understand either because you're mentally ill, or committed to this narrative in some other way, to try to "beat" me perhaps. Well, that's out. I'm 100% in the right.

>>17848713
Pathological noncompliance is noncompliance related to your pathology, in this case some kind of psych syndrome. It's just a symptom not a cause.

>>17848216
Not everyone is a druggie like you

>>17847939 (OP)
>rational, ethical verdict against the very structure of life
Rational in what sense? That you can select a narrow group of premises that would yield the conclusion of suicide? Perhaps. But that doesn't make the selection rational.
>condition whose fundamental state is pain
Not even in the slightest. Cessation of all activity (meditation) is literal bliss.
>erodes your capacity to live as a moral agent, clinging to life becomes the true act of cowardice
What's cowardly about it?
>The great philosophers
Who was it who showed the contradiction in suicide again?
>how anyone manages to keep on living
Because life is great.

>>17849400
>perfectionism is more important than life
dead people talking

>>17848079
The jealousy of dead people is a function of their superior achievement coupled with their inferior physical state. How dare you live when so many great ones have died? You should be a sacrifice for them. Thus, without dead voices you wouldn't consider suicide.

Who the fuck cares? If you want to kill yourself is extremely easy to do.

>>17847942
What if I don't share your interpretation and beliefs oh right, hell, you know what you miss, ee don't fear your threats, you are just some rando whose limited understanding of some religious tradition made you loud, but you are an annoyance, as repugnant and unsavoury as furry a and pepe shitposters, to find you here is like discovering someone didn't flush the loo.

>>17848196
Just do it yourself and stop wasting people's taxes on your whims.

>>17849724
I would guess that a lot more taxpayer money is spent on keeping people alive who would rather not be than would be spent on providing euthanasia.

>>17849913
I also don't see why you couldn't just make it something paid for by the individual.

>>17849408
>Cessation of all activity (meditation) is literal bliss.
Really? Isn't meditation just doing nothing and feeling nothing except your breathing?

>>17849711
Tick tock.