>Don't @ me Job! Did you create the universe? You have no right to question me, you have to take whatever horrible shit I throw at you and you have to like it and praise me all the way! I love you btw

>>17855409 (OP)
>you have to take whatever horrible shit I throw at you
>I throw at you
>I
You missed the other main character of the book.

>>17855413
You missed the part where Satan had God's permission. God allowed it.

>>17855415
the government allows you to wreak all kinds of havoc that isn't illegal.
Is the government directly responsible for your misfortune?

>>17855420
Is the government the all powerful, omniscient being who allegedly created the entire universe? You saying this betrays that you guys think of God like he's just some really powerful human king or anime character. You have no idea what God is.

>>17855428
we've already established, by your own admission, God is ALLOWING this to happen. Don't try and move the goal post when you've been caught in a corner.

>>17855435
>God is ALLOWING this to happen.
If you are an omnipotent all powerful being, that is the same as you doing it yourself. Also in Job that was Satan directly doing those things to him (with God's permission). It had nothing to do with Job wreaking any havoc on his own.

>>17855442
>If you are an omnipotent all powerful being, that is the same as you doing it yourself.
wrong.

And clearly your reading comprehension is sub optimal if you can't understand a simple analogy. God is the government. Satan is the bad actor allowed to wreak havoc and causing (You) misfortune. Is the government to blame? or the bad actor?

>>17855446
>Is the government to blame? or the bad actor?
The government for allowing the bad actor to run rampant and do Job (an innocent man) great harm when he could have chosen not to.

>>17855454
lmfao. A applaud your consistency.
Have a good one.

>>17855456
Yes, run away cuck.

>>17855446
post that dumbshit analogy again when the government knows the thoughts and desires of every criminal at every moment and can zap any criminal instantly if it so desires, but chooses not to because it likes watching rapes and murders live for the lulz

>>17855461
>if God good why bad things
Your own failure to understand metaphysical concepts doesn't make your IQ go any higher.

>>17855413
God brought up job to satan ant told him to fuck his shit up

>>17855446
We distinguish between allowing things and doing them yourself because for us humans it requires much greater intentionality, effort, and sacrifice in one direction or the other to do things or to prevent them, so simple non-prevention can be taken as a neutral stance between the two. But for an omnipotent being, the distinction collapses because there's no real "effort" or "sacrifice" required for anything. God could do something himself, prevent something from being done, or do nothing, and all options would require nothing from him.

>heh, consider the following: 'god works in mysterious ways'
>checkmate, atheists

>>17855466
>>if God good why bad things
Repeating it like that doesn't actually answer anything

>>17855466
>>17855473

>>17855413
If someone in a place of authority directly allows an action of their subordinate they are responsible for that action

>>17855471
>would require nothing from him.
correct. It's requires something from us. Our surrendering of our own free will. Which God wouldn't ask of us. He simply plans around the evil decisions of humanity and turns that evil into good.
See the crucifixion.

>>17855488
>the eternal, all powerfull and all knowing creator of the universe has to work around the the decision of his finite meat puppets that constantly fuckwith his "perfect plan"

Least incoherent christoid

>>17855488
But God doesn't preserve our free will altogether. Instead he sacrifices the free will of victims to avoid harm to preserve the free will of perpetrators to cause harm, as he does in Job, granting Satan the authority to torment Job but not Job the freedom to avoid being tormented by Satan.

>God is provoked by the devil into making a wager with him
>Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
So God tortures an innocent man just to prove the devil wrong because the devil succeeded in tempting him. And this guy is considered a loving god?

>>17855500
>has to
wrong again.
God is sovereign over free will.
There are many examples in scripture of God overriding the free will of others to enact his plan. God works his plan providentially and supernaturally.

>>17855506
>But God doesn't preserve our free will altogether.
I never said that. see the above statement.
It's his choice to allow free will or not.
When he doesn't, its considered divine intervention.

>>17855506
>bro a tsunami is like... free will bro
>yeah man it totally comes from adam and eve
>evolution ? The pope saying that it was a story ? Naaah... never heard of it.

>>17855518
>>has to
>wrong again.
You are wrong; if god wants his plan to succed he needs to plan around humans, you said that.

>>17855534
The church holds no official stance on evolution.
The father of genetic science was a catholic priest, Ft. Gregor Mendel.
Your big bang theory was developed by a Catholic Priest, Ft. Georges Lemaître.

>>17855539
If God's plan involves allowing humans free will, then logically yes he needs to plan around us. But his plan can also involve enacting divine intervention, and forgoing a person's or people's free will.
That's how the lawmaker is allowed to operate.

>>17855553
>The church holds no official stance on evolution.
So what's the cause of natural disasters within the framework of a benevolent and omnipotent god ?

>theory was created by a catholic
completely irrelevant to the theory itself and serves no point to the discussion but okay

>>17855553
>then logically yes he needs to plan around us.
Ok, and thinking that an all knowing god that knew everything that was going to happen before creating everything is inconsistent to believe

>>17855567
>So what's the cause of natural disasters within the framework of a benevolent and omnipotent god ?
sin.
>For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

>muh evolution
theory origin is absolutely relevant when you try to take an anti-science jab at the faith without actually taking time to research anything. The origin of your faith is the church, same as mine.

>>17855576
God knows every outcome of every decision every human can make. God doesn't take away our agency to make those decisions. He simply plans around every outcome occurring and has done so since the beginning of creation. If a certain path is taken that requires divine intervention, God has already planned for it, in case its necessary.
This doesn't contradict free will or omnipotence.
It's free will and omnipotence coexisting.

>>17855603
>God knows every outcome of every decision every human can make.
Does he know what decisions we will actually take?

>>17855610
He's omnipotent and lives outside the bounds of time and space. For him, every decision is reality.

>>17855612
Does he know what decision we will actually take in this world or no?

>>17855616
It's le divine mystery o algo

>>17855603
That's a very comical and primitive unga bunga vision of natural disasters
>huh yeah that tsunami happened because your great great great great ... great father and mother sinned
>eh sorry kiddo !

At some point you may need to stop acting like a buffoon and think logically.

>>17855616
Yes.
>The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.

If you ask your son (who likes apples) if he wants an apple or an orange, have you negated his free will?

>>17855645
What does god think of the fact that our choices are shaped by our environment rather than the magical free will ? Does he know that it doesn't exist ?

>>17855645
So againt it's incoherent; god somehow already knows everything but needs to work around human error to preserve his plan

>>17855654
>choices are shaped by our environment
>this is not free will
You're retarded.

>>17855645
>If you ask your son (who likes apples) if he wants an apple or an orange, have you negated his free will?

If I knew all the actions he would take even before his birth then yes

>>17855660
the illusion of choices*
read about it, there's a lot of psychological studies done on the subject but the gist is that people make their choices before being even aware of it.
And this isn't purely reflexes, it also applies to long-term thinking where the beginning thought (from which the thought process is derived) also applies the same logic.
Besides, compatibilism still blames god for his choices since he created the world in which free will is done through.

>>17855659
it still doesn't.
>God has watched every creature give a free will answer to every decision that could ever be presented to them from the beginning to end of time.
>God now has a plan worked out to enact his will without over impeding on humanity's decisions.
>Creation begins and reality is playing out as God foresaw.
>Humans have still been allowed their free will since the beginning of time because God lives outside of time and literally created it.

>>17855671
Does god have to work around human error? Yes or no?

>>17855673
this isn't a yes or no question. You're not going to trap me lmfao, I'm smarter than you.

God already sees human error before it actually occurs and has incorporated it into his plan.
This isn't a work around since his plan already involved allowing the human to err.

Actually reply with some substance instead of plebbit baits or I'll let this thread die.

>>17855677
If god allows for free will, why didn't he create a world where free will's consequences would be more favorable to us ?
In essence, the ability for free will currently favors certain actions like murder or theft, but doesn't allow for other things like jumping off a cliff or fasting for too long etc.
This begs the question, why did god allow for free will in *this* world but not in another one ?
Even more so, if free will is real and not an illusion, why didn't he simply make an abstract world for each person to see their moral worth ? [this is albeit assuming that free will exists because god wants it to judge people]
Lastly, why did god even allow for free will if he's omnipotent ? You could argue that it is for us to feel genuine love for his companionship, but since he's omnipotent he could do so without enforcing free will (especially given the cost).
I could go on but there's a lot of inconsistencies in your religion

>>17855692
I cant answer
>Why didn't God
I'm not God. I'll have to defer to his omnipotence in seeing divine justice carried out.

>why did god even allow for free will if he's omnipotent ?
This is a large question with a number of answers. to start off:
>So God created mankind in his own image,
> in the image of God he created them;
> male and female he created them.
The idea of a conscious soul with free will is what Christianity believes is the image of God. Not our physical image. Monkeys aren't 98% the image of God.

The general idea is that God created us in his image with a conscious free will and put us on this Earth to hold temporary dominion and learn how to truly feel love, good, hate and evil. So that, when we pass on into eternity, we are even more in the likeness of God and can understand what true love and loyalty is like when we are with him.

God wants real frens :)
not robot slaves.

>>17855677
The question has a yes or no answer; answer with either yes, no, I don't know; then you may elaborate

>>17855677
>This isn't a work around since his plan already involved allowing the human to err.
So you retract your previous statements

>>17855729
>so that we can learn
How can a 2 years old learn about anything when he got brutally dismembered limb by limb in a hurricane because eve bit into the apple ?

>God wants real frens :)
But why didn't he appear to them ontologically ? Why didn't everyone start with a precise knowledge of god ? Why be mysterious when it causes so much harm.
That ties back into god using free will to filter who goes in communion with him at death (heaven) and who doesn't (hell). It doesn't make sense to say that a child born in perfect conditions will experience and learn the same way about love and hate then a child born into a warzone. He doesn't have real friends, he only has people scared of being sent to hell and/or being indoctrinated.

>>17855413
Satan has no power over God. God could have slapped him around and stopped it whenever he wanted. He allowed it instead.