Thread 17862429

>well you see, the bombs actually saved lives. So it was a good thing.
How do Americans seriously believe this nonsense?

Which would you choose:
>bloody fight to the death against an enemy who doesn't believe in the concept of surrender and would have used children as armed combatants
>end it once and for all with 2 bombs

>>17862429 (OP)
>How do Americans seriously believe this nonsense?
Propoganda
>>17862434
Complete nonsense, the invasion of Japan was never going to happen

>>17862429 (OP)
The Japanese government was continuing to fight despite running out of food from the blockade and bombings, there was serious starvation in the 45-46 winter despite significant US food aid
I don't think the bombs were the right move, per se, but I think there's a real possibility that a prolonged war would've led to an ever deadlier (if less dramatic) humanitarian catastrophe

>>17862429 (OP)
nukes only have shock value
just as many people are killed in conventional bombing raids and fire bombing, I don't get what the big deal is (pre icbms)
only this way you lose less planes and only have to drop one bomb
the two atom bombs killed like 140,000
in Tokyo on march 10 it was 110,000+
over 600,000 would die during the whole war in japan during bombing raids and once the americans had bases in Okinawa what was stopping them?
the US was going to raze those cities regardless, they're were totally prepared to do it with conventional means and kill just as many if not more
i just don't understand this idea that without MUH NOOKs places like Hiroshima would have been spared, they wouldn't have

>>17862434
This is a false dilemma. These weren't the only options the Americans had.

>>17862465
Yeah they also had the option of just blockading Japan and letting the psychopathic yellow bastards starve to death.

Just blockade them from oil but still let food go through. What are they gonna do; fire arrows at you?

>>17862429 (OP)
to be fair, considering these were the first and thus-far only nukes ever used in warfare, nobody at the time actually knew what their impact would be, of course we did testing in a desert before this so we did have some idea but testing a nuke in a desert isn't the same as deploying one in a metropolitan area. The point is that SOMEONE had to be the first at some point, and Japan was just the obvious target for the time considering their attempts at targeting Americans and war of agression in the Pacific that was threatening the peaceful transition of countries like the Philippines to independence. The Americans had already ruled out Tokyo and Kyoto as potential targets specifically for their cultural significance, which goes to show some level of care was taken when chosing their targets. It was simply easier to justify these bombs within historical context, you're looking at the bombings in retrospect that the people carrying them out just didn't have yet.

>>17862429 (OP)
>well you see, the genocide in gaza saves lives...

>>17862490

Meh they all knew it would kill hundreds,of thousands. They all saw the blast when the bomb was tested at Los Alamos.

The real kicker was to show the Soviets what it could do.

>>17862475
Or you know, just let the Japanese know the US won't remove their emperor. That's ultimately what happened.

>>17862452
>the US was going to raze those cities regardless
>>17862520
>The real kicker was to show the Soviets what it could do
these

>>17862429 (OP)
They saved American lives, followed by all the Japanese that didn't starve as a side-effect of the total collapse that an invasion would've triggered.

We're playing the Big Boi Numbers game here.

>>17862437
>the invasion of Japan was never going to happen
Just going to ignore Okinawa huh?

>>17862549
Or they could just surrender. Which is more important, keeping their God-King or living?

>>17862549
Why? the US gave the japanese terms of surrender. All they had to do to save their people. Save hundreds of thousands of chinese, and other asians was surrender. Why is it on the USA to do anything but win the war Japan started. Also why do you think the USA knew that would end the war? They werent psychic.

>>17862429 (OP)
The Japanese committed far more atrocities for no strategic value.

>>17862572
Yeah, people tend to resist when their only option is unconditional surrender.

>>17862437
Cool, well more people die from starvation alone in China then were killed by the bombs then.
Heres my question to you, why dont you care about human life. Just being mean. I would rather be alive than dead, because someone didnt want to mean.

>>17862579
Then die.

>>17862482
Ahhh yes and then the majority of their troops which are in china, and have always been in china just keep the killing going. If you dont care about anyones lives besides the japanese then this is a great plan.

>>17862576
>Also why do you think the USA knew that would end the war? They werent psychic.
Because the Americans were monitoring what was going on within the japanese government and were well aware of what prevented the Japanese from suing for peace.

>>17862579
Germany surrendered. Italy lead a coup to stop the war. Many options existed within japan to end the war whenever they wanted to death to stop. The emperor and other leaders just didnt give a shit about the japanese people. The US spent more time worrying about them than the jap elites.
>>17862584
We did not have spies inside the imperial palace, and these talks were held face to face. We absolutely did not. And again all the japanese high command have to do to stop the death is surrender, but they didnt because they didnt give a shit about the people.

>>17862587
>Germany surrendered
Yeah after Berlin was captured.
>We absolutely did not
The Americans knew what Togo was writing to Sato. They also knew that Konoe's envoy to the USSR was sanctioned by the emperor.

>>17862579
Sucks to suck, they shouldn't have believed the propaganda of Americans being bloodthirsty killers with how benevolent the US was with post-war Japan.

If collectivists fuck or try to fuck with a free people they deserve the nuke.

>>17862604
They had every reason to believe Americans were violent people who would turn Japan to an American satellite. That's what happened. They only got lucky China became communist and Americans needed a reliable partner in the region.

>>17862590
It's generally considered a bad thing that Germany only surrendered after throwing hundreds of thousands of men into a pointless meat grinder and having Berlin turned to dust, just to maintain the ego of one man.

>>17862607
>the guys who have competitions to see how many POWs they can behead, call others violent
Once again, then die?

>>17862616
Yeah the country that used napalm and then atomic bombs is pretty violent.

>>17862429 (OP)
>the bombs actually saved lives
It saved american lives, which is all that mattered

Why are they any more evil than the firebombings, or other large scale bombing campaigns on civilians which happened throughout the war, everywhere?

>>17862664
They also were war crimes. The thing with the bombing if Hiroshima and Nagasaki is that Japan wasn't that far off from surrendering and only needed a few hints that would have been harmless to the US. But Truman decided he had a new toy and wanted to use it anyway.

>>17862772
>wasn't that far off from surrendering
Unconditionally?

>>17862607
>That's what happened
Lmao. I love your brown cope of denying reality. Thirdies really can only see in master slave relationships

>>17862835
If they got to keep their emperor, yeah.
>>17862843
You would deny Japan became an american vassal? It took years for Japan to become a normal country again.

The leaders of the Japanese government cared less about Japanese lives than the pilots who dropped those bombs

>>17862854
>most devastating war in human history
>Why didn't the losing nation recover to 100% instantly when the war ended?
Must be a great mystery for your mind.

>>17862862
Its not about recovering economically, which actually happened quite fast thanks to the korean war partially. It's just that Japan was basically an american pawn.
>The agreement contained five articles which dictated that Japan allow the United States to continue maintaining military bases on Japanese soil even after the end of the Occupation. The accord prohibited Japan from providing foreign powers any bases or military-related rights without the consent of the United States. Moreover, the accord allowed the United States to use military forces stationed in Japan without prior consultation with the Japanese government and did not mention any requirement for U.S. forces to defend Japan if Japan were to be attacked.[1] Troublingly for many Japanese, the treaty had no set expiration date, nor did it specify any precise mechanism of abrogation.
The treaty was eventually modified after a lot of riots in Japan, but you can't deny Japan wasn't exactly an independent country at that time.

>>17862874
>Japan wasn't exactly an independent country
That's one hell of a backpeddal from Japan being subservient to Washington in every way in governance domestically and internationally

>>17862520
Not supported in the sources. This is a post war made up justification. The contemporary sources all point to that they needed to show the Japanese at least two detonations to convince them that they were fucked and that they had multiple bombs ready.

>>17862429 (OP)
I would rather nuke Israel than have America fight another foreign war. And nuke mecca too, because they shouldn't be worshiping a fucking cube anyways.

>>17863622
This never made any sense. The Americans like to pretend the Japanese were fanatics who would all kill themselves for the emperor. But suddenly all of this stopped because they realized the Americans had big bombs and so they left them occupy their country pacifically.
This is just really retarded. Moreover, the Japanese didn't have time to react to the two bombs. The Americans dropped one and left only three days before dropping another. In the meantime, the Soviets had invaded Manchuria.

>>17862429 (OP)
The nukes were divine intervention like the Kamikaze that brought down Mongolian invasion fleets twice

>>17862590
And the envory to the USSR was seeking more than just the retention of the emperor. And the US and USSR had already given terms. This mommy daddy shit was just more perfidious plotting. All they had to do was surrender.

>>17862630
None of that would have happened if japan hadnt started the war retard. How many chinese POW's did japan hand back over at the end of the war?

>>17862650
And chinese, and korean, and malay, and the list goes on and on, even ignoring american lives.

>>17864261
Japan was ready to abandon all the gains from the russo-japanese war just to get the USSR help them to get out of the war. They were desperate, Americans and Soviets knew that.
>>17864264
That's irrelevant. The Americans could have stopped the war easily by dropping the "unconditional surrender" like many in the state department were in favour of.

>>17863948
First yes they did you retard. The japanese high command the only people who mattered knew about it within hours. And their scientists were able to explain it, as they had their own albeit bad program. Two you have zero idea how fanaticism works. They are fanatical servants of the emperor. Once he says surrender it would be un fanatical to not.
The soviets invading was absolutely important, but not for the reason you think you slow motherfucker. Its important because japan had been trying to backdoor a conditional surrender with them, and the declaration of war ended that happening. They didnt gave 1 tiny shit about the million japanese soldiers being slaughtered in china by commies. If their people dying mattered to them they have have surrendered already.

>>17862604
But America has exterminated Japan.
There are no children in Japan because of American liberalism.

>>17864269
Why would we drop that and negotiate terms? You need to understand that that WW2 was seen at the time as the third in a series of german led wars across the globe. And the idea agreed upon by the allies was this time they would get unconditional surrenders from everyone and completely reshape the world order to prevent this from ever happening again. They were fighting not just to end WW2, but to stop WW3. People believed, and rightfully so that much of this conflict came from the Franco Prussian war. The allies literally beleived the messed up the peace of WW1 so badly it caused WW2(which it didnt really once germany lost they were always going to be sore losers, and once the winners treated japan like shit they were always going to get "uppity")
They were not being bloodthirsty, the leaders of WW2 had all fought or seen WW1, and now they were watching their sons die again in a great war, they wanted to end it for all time. And allowing japan to have whatever it wanted after it murdered and raped its way across asia and the pacific was not going to happen.

>>17864283
>The japanese high command the only people who mattered knew about it within hours
That's completely false. The Japanese understood it was an atomic bomb in August 8th when scientists got in the city.
>They are fanatical servants of the emperor. Once he says surrender it would be un fanatical to not.
Oh yeah? And somehow some officers still try to lead a coup despite that?
>Its important because japan had been trying to backdoor a conditional surrender with them
That's great. Why didn't the Americans wait to see if the soviet declaration of war has any effect whatsoever on the japanese high command before dropping the second bomb? They really tried so hard to save lives.

>>17862613
You say to maintain the ego as if the Germans weren’t fully justified in fighting the Soviets to the bitter end and surrendering to the Angolems.
Maybe just maybe the Germans were fighting to keep the Soviets from capturing them.

Or maybe you’re right maybe Hitler was a spiritual figure, a great bolt of sunlight shinning through time and space and that’s why the German Army fought on and on and on even when everyone knew it was over the day the war began. They were driven by Hitler’s sheer aura as an Ilian like hero, a man against time.

japs were monsters so we behaved monstrously

>>17864301
>Why would we drop that and negotiate terms?
Because it would have ended the war quicker. The Americans didn't give a shit wether or not Japan got to keep their emperor. Stimson wrote a draft of the Postdam declaration that specified the Japanese would keep their emperor. Churchill advised Truman to drop the "unconditional surrender" towards Japan. The idiot just went anyway, modified the declaration by removing all mentions to the imperial family.

>>17864302
High ranking officers retard. The elites were not fanatics. The rank and file were. Jesus your fucking retarded.
The soviet entry into the war didnt have an immediate effect, we know because again retard the Japanese didnt surrender. Every days the japs dont surrender they kills tens of thousands more civilians. This is not the USA's fault this is japans, they dont have to kill these people, they dont have to be at war. They were given terms of surrender ages ago. All they have to do is surrender and stop killing half of asia.

Also nice ignoring the point, that WW2 was scene as part of a larger pattern of war and that the intent was to stop this going forward. WHICH it did.

>>17864343
>High ranking officers retard
You mean like Yonai? He was in favour of surrendering. The high ranking officials weren't the issue.
>we know because again retard the Japanese didnt surrender.
They did. Japan surrendered a few days after the soviet invasion. All of this would have been quicker if Truman had listened to Stimson, Grew of McCloy. But I guess Americans were never interested in minimizing causalities in the first place.

>>17864384
>Japan surrendered a few days after the soviet invasion
You mean a few days after Nagasaki huh?

>>17862429 (OP)
they're mathematically correct, cope, seethe, dilate then kys, retard