Is it fair to consider communism a sort of secular cult?

The fact they come up with their own definitions for terms that already have meanings (the actions of the Soviet Union can’t be imperialistic because according to to Marxist definition of imperialism only a capitalist state can be imperialist), the utopian vision of world revolution that’s almost like a secular version of the Rapture, the way it is totally unwilling to tolerate ideas that disagree with them.

It’s like they take organized religion, cut out God, but kept everything else.

>>17866699 (OP)
Yes

>>17866699 (OP)
It's just a front for jewish control. It's been abandoned because it doesn't work. The capitalist experiment was more successful.

>>17866699 (OP)
>Communism a cult
Yes, are you just now realizing this?

It's secular altruism, you are born selfish (sinful in nom-secular altruism) and you must be controlled for your own good, to serve the collective of course *buys another mansion*.

>>17866725
It's not altruistic to kill someone and split their things up among your compatriots.

>>17866699 (OP)
Yes

Cult? What are communists cultivating?
Communism started as a social ideal, Marxism reinterpreted it as a scientific philosophy, and finally it became the great hope of many millions, maybe billions of people. Any popular idea held as a strong conviction by a mass of people will enjoy great loyalty. This doesn't make it a "cult".

>>17866742
>Marxism reinterpreted it as a scientific philosophy
That is actual cult shit. The phrasing of your economic and political views as “scientifically based” from a completely made up science is insane.

>>17866699 (OP)
Yes, this sort of thing is prevalent in today’s society. Mainly when it comes to things like science. And I don’t mean that as people worshipping the scientific method or anything like that but treating science as a faith sink. Something that they put their faith into and always try to push as being infallible no matter what. These people that I’m describing tend to get very mad when you ask questions or doubt notions but can almost never argue how it is you’re wrong for doing it and just insist that you “trust the experts” which rings the same as “it’s all God’s plan” it’s an inherently anti-intellectual thing presenting itself as intellectual. And it’s hard to call out due to the fact that they never let you do it for individual things they always have to lump it with something else in order to make you look bad. Like let’s say there is a medication that is supposed to reverse hairloss. And while it does do that it’s not very effective and makes about 65% of the people that use it very sick. Now if you call that out these people will then say how you are also against a medicine that does work and works well. Its not because you actually said anything like that but it’s a means to make you look unreasonable.

>>17866699 (OP)
>It’s like they take organized religion, cut out God, but kept everything else.
It's similar. It's not enough for a full-blown communist to believe that land and capital should be held in common, he has a militantly certain belief in various elaborate and dogmatic beliefs like dialectical materialism. Now create a state in which from birth to death, the individual is surrounded by the loving care of the mother party and its general secretary with a wide range of professions from journalists to teachers -- and all newspapers and television and radio -- engaged regularly in "uplifting" socialism. The results are not great.
https://youtu.be/VersLJjqRGY

>>17866699 (OP)
>(the actions of the Soviet Union can’t be imperialistic because according to to Marxist definition of imperialism only a capitalist state can be imperialist)

>>17866731
Killing and redistributing someone's goods is enforcing altruism in their name, they are sacrificed for the good of the group and selfish if they refuse. The commie party commits altruism on your behalf. You will be made to comply and sacrifice.

>>17866699 (OP)
>because according to to Marxist definition of imperialism only a capitalist state can be imperialist
Wasn't it specifically Lenin who came up with that specific, odd definition of imperialism?

>>17867690
>we call ourselves the good guys and only when the bad guys do things are those things bad, don't you see?
People take this as seriously as other people take the talking snake, what the fuck is going on

>>17866699 (OP)
You do realize the main reason why the Soviets are anti-Christian, seemingly, is because the Church authorities were just serving whatever the fuck the Tsarist and White authorities said, including legit torturing and giving up those even theorized to be Bolsheviks.
>>17867699
Not much different from the US invading random countries and calling it spreading democracy and LGBTBBQ values because we're the good guys.

>>17867708
>b-b-but the USA
The US is not a mixed economy, capitalism is merely a hamster in the wheel to keep the country running while the government micromanages redistribution programs. Practically China but less overt.

>>17867711
The US is owned by foreign, international interests. Musk could fund a candidate and own a chunk of the administration. When Jack Ma tried to fuck with the CCP, they quickly fucked back and reminded him who's boss. There's a big difference.

>>17866699 (OP)
It is yeah

>>17867711
Those "redistribution programs" go to foreign interests or to benefit the oligarch class. None of it goes to citizens. It's not "practically China" because it does nothing to provide its citizens. Social Security is the closest thing to the country's welfare state and that's gonna be abolished once Trump wins again in 2028. And even then, you cannot collect it until you work for 40 years and somehow reach the age of 67.

>>17867732
None of it goes to citizens? What is welfare/ebt/subsidies for citizens and lobbying for bailouts/patent enforcement?

>>17867752
EBT is state stimulus for American food stuff.
Welfare does not operate on on need. And it does not support the person enough. Most have to get a job on the side.
The majority of the working class does not get these benefits and they would be turned away when they apply. These days, specific minorities hog the resources to their own race. So for example, filthy LatrinX in San Diego only give their own race these benefits and deny a white veteran because he's not la raza or whatever. Similarly they'll deny a black veteran lol.
It's a terrible system. Nothing like China's.

>>17867758
It's a terrible system
vs
It doesn't happen
Are two very different things, you disingenuous fuck.

>>17867759
The specific things that you listed, which are not redistribution programs, are terrible. They are literally grifting programs. Same story with the VA system.
It's not a "welfare state" the same as China's or Europe's. That's false equivalence. 90% of the working class do not qualify for it.

>>17867767
Again, them being bad does not equal them not existing. Them existing is already the bad part. Property is not something to shove around according to the whim of the 'gubbamint program master", it is a human right. If it is not, your work is useless because anyone can make a case that they need what you created/earned more than you, making ambition moot and killing the human spirit to create value.

>>17866699 (OP)
Judaism, Atheism, and Communism are all sects of Protestantism as Islam, Mormonism and Orthodox are Sects of the Catholic religion.

>>17867775
>brings up property out of the blue and switches the subject when he loses
>as if I am implying that everyone is owed a single family home lmfao
>>"making ambition moot and killing the human spirit to create value"
>USSR and china never had scientists ever ever ever and they never reached space
What kills the human spirit is working a retail job so that you can spend the rest of your free time going through law school with no guarantee that you will even manage to complete it. No guarantee that you will even be licensed as a lawyer. No guarantee that you will even get a lawyer job. No guarantee that you will be kept as a lawyer during another economic downturn caused by the griftconomy. Things are so bad that the US has to import foreign skilled workers. Nepo kids and rich foreigners never had to raise a finger because daddy wiped their ass well into the age of 20. They learn material stress free and play league of legends or go golfing in their free time. They get a job lined up from their dad. Upper class South Asians leech from their own people through caste systems to fund their own study which they use to go to other countries and mooch money for their family back home. There is no room to have "human spirit" for an average guy with a good work ethic.
Welfare and EBT is state funds to the CAPITAL CLASS. It is gate kept to a specific class of people (mexicans) and the sum is similarly terrible unless the recipient is a mexican with kids. They burn all the money on Coca Cola and burger king, both American companies. Again, 90% of Americans do not qualify for it. That makes it nonexistent since it is so racially exclusive.

>>17866699 (OP)
you do realise there are plenty of communists who criticise the imperialism of the SU right?

>>17866725

>>17867836
It's always a property issue, you dipshit, bringing it up is the correct point. I was born in a trailer and I make 80k a year doing SQL queries, any retard can make a living here. They just don't want to because of the victim olympics being more lucrative for less time invested. We celebrate mediocrity and punish exceptionalism. Guess what's gonna pop up more after that.

>>17867876
Thanks for posting this, it lacks Objectivist input but is bretty gud.

>>17867876
Why is it not map-shaped when it's clearly whatifalthis shaped?

>>17867879
Not having money to afford learning to make SQL queries is not "victim olympics". People gotta pay their own rent to live in places that teach SQL queries.
> We celebrate mediocrity and punish exceptionalism.
Ask the majority of people and they will tell you that both of these things exists everywhere they work.
Exceptionalism is not meritocracy and it's not sustainable for a business or a society let alone a state. One tranny building many tables alone isn't good because I need all my trannies managing tables at a good pace. As a business owner, I don't have time to filter through all the exceptionalists. I want everyone to contribute and turn up my profits. You making 9 tables at a time is not the same thing as Boeing making a revolutionary plane model or Honda making a new car line. You're a cog in the machine bud.

>>17867836
Exactly this, the thing is even the retards in the USSR got a somewhat meaningful job, if they play their cards right, they could be manager of a fountain. Effectively meaningless, but gives you some level of worth.

Capitalism simply cannot uphold a collectivist society, and you need a collectivist society to have a stable nation-state.

>>17866699 (OP)
soviet union was imperialist but
>1+1=3
>no it equals 2
>MAD CULTIST OR SOMETHING
thank you chudyard

>>17868021
That's complete horseshit, the most collectivist societies on earth are the most oppressive unstable ones. North Korea, Lev Tahor, Jim Jones.

I hesitate to call it a cult, but it’s an ideology that lights up the same neural path ways in the brain as religion does in certain people.

>>17868032
Reminder that you're not an Empire if you LIBERATED THE SHIT OUT OF THEM.

>>17866699 (OP)
The Marxist definition of imperialism only "a capitalist state can be imperialist" is more of a description than a definition. The definition of imperialism is "policy, practice, or system by which a nation extends its power and control over others, as by annexation or an imperialistic occupation of territories". So I don't see this as a definition issue. It's more a discussion about what "their" definition is, the definition being that only a capitalist nation can be imperialistic. So a better answer would be to determine why only a capitalist nation can be imperialistic.

Marxism is just modern Christianity:
>The teachings of an obscure Jewish schizo gets picked up and gains worldwide popularity long after his death
>It has different saints/great men
>splits into multiple sects eventually
>has a utopian vision of the future
>has a persecution complex
>ruthlessly destroys heretics that have a slightly diferent opinion from them(trotskyism vs stalinism)
>etc.

>>17868056
Its not just modern Christianity. Abrahamic religion has alwaysbeen about class struggle. It's funny to see how there are still "Christian" capitalists here in spite of this. All of them are americans/latinx cultists.

>>17866699 (OP)
(1) the concentration of production and capital has developed to such a high stage that it has created monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life; (2) the merging of bank capital with industrial capital, and the creation, on the basis of this “finance capital,” of a financial oligarchy; (3) the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance; (4) the formation of international monopolist capitalist associations which share the world among themselves and (5) the territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers is completed. Imperialism is capitalism at that stage of development at which the dominance of monopolies and finance capital is established; in which the export of capital has acquired pronounced importance; in which the division of the world among the international trusts has begun, in which the division of all territories of the globe among the biggest capitalist powers has been completed.

So the Soviet Union
1) Has no monopolies
2) Does not have financial capital
3) Does not export capital
4) Is (by Stalin's time) explicitly not Internationalist
5) Is not a capitalist power

So it definitionally can not do Imperialism. This wasn't hard, you can literally google this shit.

>dude you don't need price signals to produce shit
retards 200 years later
>NOO THIS IS SECULAR RELIGION, THIS IS LEFTIST CHRISTIANITY, THIS IS UTOPIAN!

>>17868037
China and North Korea will last for about a thousand years. USA will collapse in about 50-60.

>>17868103
China and Korea have already existed thousands of years, USA flew by them in tech and finance in 200 using nothing but letting people trade freely, they even had to almost bankrupt themselves in a bloody revolutionary war to even start their own country. That is the power of individual freedom.

>>17868108
>USA flew by them in tech and finance in 200 using nothing but letting people trade freely, they even had to almost bankrupt themselves in a bloody revolutionary war to even start their own country. That is the power of individual freedom.
>muh GDP
>muh F-35
None of this matters when the US will also collapse as fast as it flew by them lmfao. 40-50 years. I suspect something like 10 to 15 successor states.

>>17868115
Pray it comes, for it won't anyway.

>>17868120
China will probably turn the West Coast into a colonial state, but it'll likely be an improvement.

>>17868115
The USA's "Empire" is just a term used to describe its formal network of alliances and the fact that its enormous (domestic!) economy is able to extert significant, but not absolute, influence over other states.

The USA does not rule over occupied provinces with Praefects and any kind of formal integration, Puerto Rico and Guam are basically the only things akin to that in the United States.

The USA possesses an enormous core heartland, exactly like how France by itself was enough to be the kingpin of Europe for centuries because France by itself was already the largest and most populated state in Europe aside from Russia.

An Empire like Britain or Spain's collapsed when their far flung colonies, populated by subjugated foreigners, seceded from them. The USA has no such colonial equivalent, fucking nobody in Minnesota is calling for independence.

There is literally zero demand for balkanizing the US outside of memes

>>17868241
most of Europe is under American colonial rule.

>>17868424
The State Department sure wished that were the case.

>>17866699 (OP)
The only person I've ever seen to make this argument in a convincing manner was Christopher Hitchens. It took a LOT of rhetorical might to make it believable and every atheists I've seen since has failed to pull it off. So if this is the general direction you're taking it, I would say no.
If all you're asking is whether one instance of communism relied on a cult-of-personality, then I would say Stalinism could definitely be argued to have been that, but so could any other dictatorship really.

>>17868080
>can not

>>17867708
>You do realize the main reason why the Soviets are anti-Christian, seemingly, is because the Church authorities were just serving whatever the fuck the Tsarist and White authorities said
There wasn't separation between church and state in Russia, so the revolution that toppled the Tsarist state also toppled the church. The Tsar was supposed to be anointed by God, so shooting the Tsar was like killing God in a kind of metaphorical sense. This was a pretty radical secularizing revolution like in France and the Bolsheviks looked at religion like spiritual moonshine standing in the way of a brave new world of electrification. Kind of like...
https://youtu.be/kKO-JCx3NNw

You also gotta remember that they banned (completely) all political parties other than their own, and prohibited all competing ideologies. That's why they called religious repression "political struggle." The dial on the knob of repression phased up and down but this basic perception of religion lasted until 1988, and being suspected of religous practices could get you shitcanned from the party (and therefore any significant career) into the 80s. Then during the most intense years of civil war, they gunned down priests, nuns, monks and the occasional religious procession. They seized thousands of churches and turned them into granaries and shops.

>>17868484
>It took a LOT of rhetorical might to make it believable and every atheists I've seen since has failed to pull it off.
I think the crux of the matter is that it was both godless and totalizing. I'm talking about the USSR or communist Albania here. They tried to build a social order on a single philosophy. People say other ideologies try to do that and every ideology is intolerant, but communist states really went beyond just about everybody in trying to control people's thoughts and repressing people for thinking the wrong things. And then in the course of the party concentrating power, the philosophy and ideology became more and more like a dogma which resembled dogmatic religious believers.

>>17868046
>I hesitate to call it a cult, but it’s an ideology that lights up the same neural path ways in the brain as religion does in certain people.
There's a tendency for some communists today to form little cults, adopt religious practices and try to mix it in with their group, or give up communism and convert to a religion.

Maybe one way of explaining what happened in the early 20th century is that traditional religious structures (tied hook-and-crook to the state like in Russia) collapsed. And in that void came a rush of new "isms." Religion provides a kind of metaphysical canopy that shelters people from feelings of existential dread. When that collapses, you get nihilism and staring into the void, which feels bad. And that canopy collapsed in many societies during World War I. At least one aspect of communism (and other isms like national socialism) was to construct a new canopy of meaning and purpose for people:
https://youtu.be/oYZjNdKH6s8

In our day, there are a lot of people feeling deep ennui. It's like the "nothing ever happens" guy. So they LARP.

The revolution also being "storming heaven in an armored car." The Tsar's palaces = heaven. Lenin as the spirit of the age by rolling through the revolution on top of an armored car. Poem by Mayakovsky:
https://youtu.be/800MvyQrKL8

>>17868590
>They tried to build a social order on a single philosophy
That's very arguable. They overall agreed on the end goal and somewhat agreed on the methods to get there but there isn't any more unifying philosophy beneath it than there is in SCRUM project management methodology. A framing with a handful of terms, roles and best-practices.
>more and more like a dogma which resembled dogmatic religious believers
This is where Hitchens succeeded. He made the audience forget that dogma is a social function, not a religious function. Most religions don't have dogmata. They might contain taboos and purity codes that were produced in collaboration with the wider society, but being dogmatic, centralized and intolerant aren't primarily religious attributes. They are social attributes that get imprinted onto religion. It's just in the West - where religion has had outstanding power and then an outstanding loss of power - that we are able to scapegoat religion as the source of these elements. "It was the celibate 'man in charge' that gave us dogma and intolerance ughh and every instance of it since is just their consequence". I wish. But a wide survey of cults and religions shows that it's not the source.

Said simply, you could as well say that USSR was Catholic because both USSR and Catholics have a single supreme leader. It's a correlate for sure, but the source of both is anthropology, not religion.

>>17866699 (OP)
>Is it fair to consider communism a sort of secular cult?
Metaphorically, yes. The accusation is not only as old as the ideology, it is even validated by its inspirations actively pursuing these behaviours.
Literally, I'd avoid calling it that.

>>17868617
>Most religions don't have dogmata
Most religions have basic tenets that describe the core components and character of their faith.

>>17868484
Rand's assessment was spot on. They both use altruism as the moral ideal, mystic or materialist doesn't really matter

>>17868633
Some do, some don't. Faith in the sense of a collection of propositions comes at a surprisingly late stage of cult development. Most cults wouldn't really have anything we would today call dogmata, which is why Roman pagans were able to seamlessly incorporate Greek paganism into their own religion: As long as they didn't outright call each other a fraud, there was pretty much nothing to bicker over. In any case, taboos, dogmas and intolerance are social functions just like collective dinners, celebrations or calendars. Religions definitely make good use of them, but it's borrowed from the society itself, not pushed into society.

>>17868635
Mystic or materialist matters a whole lot. If any system where altruism is axiomatically moral is considered somewhat religous then humanism is the first one to go.

I'd say that's a bit of an exaggeration

>>17866707
>>17866722
>>17866741
Do z larpers?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pobedobesie

>>17868831
Slavs are such ass sore ingrate losers.

>>17866699 (OP)
Its also has many superficial similarities straight from religions.
Early prophets
Main Prophet (Marx)
Holy Book (Capital) of Absolute Truth
Martyrs saints
Suffering in lfie for the great future.
Also prising Lord and very convenient moment. Like every soviet scientific book or article requied to have chapter/paragraph that described how Marx and Lenin predicted these results in "holy writings", everything is according to "gods words", equivalent of starting every writing with praising the God in medieval era.

>>17869015
>Holy Book (Capital) of Absolute Truth
Kinda odd to say as pretty much everybody after Marx had to find ways to deal with the fact that the situation he described no longer applied to the situation at hand.

The big two issues were that economics changed (as in the working class was better off than it used to be) and that the working class had changed (compromised with politics to some degree, used direct actions tactically ti improve their lot rather than strategically to overcome Capitalism)
So all the writers tried to bridge over Marx into the current year by their writing.