>Swedish army in the 17th century according to historians : Brilliant, Innovative, Powerful, Groundbreakings, Fascinating
>Spanish army in the 17th century according to historians : Decadent, Outdated, Powerless, Dull, Feeble
Why is it that every time the Spanish and Swede fought each other during this period the former completely wiped the floor with the latter, be it at the famous battle of Nordlingen or during the campaigns of the duke of Feria? Isn't there something inherently wrong with the narrative we're being offered here?

>uses a cropped, edited picture and racebaiting chudjaks
Clearly you don't have a narrative that you're trying to push, why should we listen to you over accredited historians?

>>17867682 (OP)
can make such assumption from just 1 encounter though

>>17867772
*cant

>>17867772
Not just one encounter, I also mentioned the duke of Feria campaigns against Sweden.
>>17867749
It is to make the point come across. The Imperial army is not the one that won Nordlingen, if you actually bothered to read about the battle you would know that the Spanish was the decisive factor in the Catholic victory. In that sense, you're being far more dishonest and disingenuous than I am.

>>17867781
> I also mentioned the duke of Feria campaigns against Sweden
10000 vs 300 troops, doesnt count

>>17867793
You know that there's a world beyond wikipedia battleboxes? You know that he led multiple battles against the swedes and dislodged them from Alsace and several parts of Germany? If you don't make an effort to learn a bit about the subject just don't talk about it.

>>17867797
erm shouldnt have posted a battlebox in the op

>>17867800
Low IQ retort.

>>17867816
here is a high iq take: if there isnt a wiki page for it then it is irrelevant

>>17867820
Low IQ post.

>>17867826
your ass knows im right gang

>>17867682 (OP)
OP’s conclusion is correct, but his premise oversimplifies the issue. Historians have debated the concept of a 17th-century “military revolution,” particularly regarding Gustavus Adolphus’ Swedish army. Michael Roberts argued that Sweden’s linear tactics, emphasizing disciplined firepower and flexible formations, marked a revolutionary shift in warfare. However, Geoffrey Parker called this narrative into question, pointing to the Battle of Nördlingen (1634), where the supposedly outdated Spanish tercios easily defeated the Swedes
>Roberts' linear tactics concept had an early critic in the younger historian Geoffrey Parker, who asked why the supposedly outdated Spanish tercios defeated the Swedish linear formations at the battle of Nördlingen in 1634.[17] Parker instead suggested that the key development was the appearance of the trace italienne fortifications in early modern Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Revolution#Trace_italienne

>>17867781
>It is to make the point come across
If you have to lie and change historical facts to make a point you have an incorrect point

>>17867849
Geoffrey Parker is usually a nonce though but I appreciate his point for once
>>17867933
No.

>>17867937
Yes. Next time don't lie.

>>17867938
I was actually proved correct here >>17867849
Now keep coping.

>>17867682 (OP)
Protestant propaganda.

>>17868094
Most protestant would kiss the Ottoman slave owners ring

>>17867682 (OP)
Playing with dolls again?

>>17867682 (OP)
The Spanish state was a rotting husk, but the army was still highly regarded. It's the army that had spent decades fighting the Dutch with a lack of supplies, even when defeated they put up a good fight. Even at Rocroi the infantry fought brilliantly.

>>17867849
>easily
But it wasn’t easy. Nordlingen was won by a combination of flanking and weaker troops on the Protestant side. The tercios underperformed. The fact they were on the winning side is not proof they were good, it’s proof they weren’t bad enough to sink the whole engagement, not proof they carried the engagement.

>>17868119
The Spanish state was financing the entire empirial army. Stop being fucking retarded

>>17868146
>Repeatedly goes bankrupt
>Can't effectively fund or supply army of the Netherlands
>Gets involved in numerous expensive, unwinnable wars
>Can't contain Dutch and English privateering

>>17868129
>The tercios underperformed. The fact they were on the winning side is not proof they were good, it’s proof they weren’t bad enough to sink the whole engagement, not proof they carried the engagement.
This claim is contentious. The Spanish tercios played a key role in the Catholic victory. They withstood repeated Protestant assaults, including a heavy artillery bombardment and multiple infantry charges. The Tercio of Idiáquez, for instance, rallied retreating Imperial troops on the Albuch and launched a decisive counterattack that regained the hill They withstood up to fifteen cavalry charges and held the Albuch without retreating. Contemporary sources credit the tercios’ professionalism and adaptability for turning the tide. Losses on the Catholic side were relatively low suggesting the tercios performed robustly under pressure

>>17868159
>meme
>meme
>true but not a proof of anything
>meme

>>17867944
>I was proven correct here
>Post that doest even address the lie
Cry all you want, if it was true you would not need to lie

>>17868180
which lie?

Rocroi

>>17868146
As opposed to a theoretical army?

>>17868182
The one you made in the OP and was already called out on, it's too late to lay dumb

>>17868184
Rocroi has nothing to do with Sweden.

>>17868187
Bro is having a meltdown over a wojak meme.

>>17868192
Bro couldn't think of a way to defend his lie so now he resorts to zoomie nu-sPeak

>>17868199
This was just for the fun of the meme, nobody denies the HRE involvement in the battle

>>17868202
>lying was just for fun
Next time stick to facts and maybe your claims would get taken seriously

>>17868206
It did. This thread should be on its way to the page 10 by now since OP claim as been vindicated but the usual butthurt crowd felt like sperging out.

>>17868232
You very much didn't, yo got called out and used the entire thread to just defend your lie. Multiple anons called you out onit and ow you're left with samefagging

>>17868169
>Everything that disagrees with me
Yes a state that gets into wars it can't win and supply or fund its army is competent

>>17868541
It did supply and fund its armies and the catholic league. Are you fucking clueless about this time period?
>>17868188
Rocroi is also propaganda.

>>17868556
>Rocroi is also propaganda.
In large part yes. The rebellions in Catalonia and Portugal were what made the French won the war, not Rocroi.
>>17868532
>Schizo accuse me of samefagging
Take your meds

>>17867749
>why should we listen to you over accredited historians?
Accredited historians actually have their opinion being quoted here
>>17867849 . You just deliberately ignore it to push your own narrative. You are doing what you accuse me of, you are very dishonest and disingenuous.

>>17868556
The arny of Flanders had constant mutinies from lack of supply and payment

>>17868605
yeah led to some fun moment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Antwerp

>>17868605
That was normal as transfering money internationally was very slow and expensive and had to be done through high interest loans done by traders. It happened to everyone by the way, it is just that Spain had the most spread out interests in all of Europe

And come the peace of Westphalia, I am sure that those pesky Swedes were severely punished and Lutheranism and Calvinism relegated to the dustbin of history?

This comparison is laughable

>>17868725
>>17867682 (OP)
>peaceful electorate prince to militaristic centralized king
Brandenburgers-led Prussia later succeed Sweden’s imperial power after 1721

>>17868725
France won the war.
>>17868783
Why?

>>17868916
The Imperial Swedish Army was certainly the stronger of the two

>>17868916
Also France suffer religion war

>>17868933
>Imperial Swedish Army was certainly the stronger of the two
Holy shit the delusion.

>>17868942
>Also France suffer religion war
saaaaar

>>17868933
Why couldn't Sweden won as much as a single battle against Spain

>>17869254
Their defeat at Nördlingen was caused by incompetence on military officer Gustav Horn's part. And let's not forget, Spain had assistance from the Imperial Army.

>>17869254
>Why couldn't Sweden won as much as
saaaaaar

>>17869387
Japanese website. Were not all EFL
>>17869383
There were others than nordlingen + cope.

>>17869387
Japanese website. Were not all EFL
>>17869383
There were others than nordlingen cope.

>>17869530
>>17869585
yes saar the bloody japonic benchod website saaar