Hi.
In this thread im going to analize each comment that has been used to demerit the mesoamerican civilizations.

>No wheel
Many anons know this is false and that in reality, they did know about the wheel and how it worked, thos because of the wheel artifacts that have been found in all mesoamerica, but the real problem would be that even though mesoamericans knew about the wheel and how it worked, didnt use it for more practical reasons.
Even though, this doesnt apply to all mesoamerica, since it has been found that mayans did found a more practical use for the wheel since they would use them in the construction of roads with the roller-flattening modality, as well as of the use of rollers to transport the rocks for the building of the mayan pyramids and monuments.

>There was no metalurgy.
We know there was metalurgy of Gold, Silver, Copper and Bronze.
The most complex of these metals was the bronze, which came from the andine civilization through maritime trade with the west mesoamericans.
The bronze would expand to most of mesoamerica by the XV-XVI century (mainly because of the aztec trading routes).

>There was no sail boats in mesoamerica.
This is true, there were no sail boats unlike in south america in mesoamerica, even though there were also ports and a pretty good coastal navigation system.
We also know there were maritime canals in Tenochtitlan.
This was my main source.
https://www.revistacienciasunam.com/pt/183-revistas/revista-ciencias-33/1715-la-rueda-y-la-vela-en-mesoam%C3%A9rica.html

>analize
saaaaaarrrrrr

>saaaaaarrrrrr
Im not even an Hindu IMAO

>>17869959
They didn't use wheels because there was not cows, donkeys, horses and other important pack animals in Precolumbian America, which is also the same reason why they had such weak immune systems and died in millions to Cocotizil, as most pandemics are of animal origin. The Peruvians had Llamas and that's why their territory was more extensive than them.

>>17870033
>Historically, most of the "History's major killers" (as CGPGrey called them) also emerged from wild species:

>Smallpox from rodents 16,000+ years ago (Li et al 2007)
>Typhus is spread by human and rodent parasites (Bechah et al 2008)
>Mumps has ties to bats (Drexler et al 2012), but also possible links to pigs so perhaps this one is a wash
>Tuberculosis has been co-evolving with humans for some 40,000 years (Wirth et al 2008), and while it was initially filtered out of population of the first Americans, it made its way to the Pre-Columbian Americas via seals / sea lions (Bos et al 2014)
>The Black Death - spread by rodents and their parasites (Brubaker 2015)
>Additionally, Cholera isn't a zoonotic disease at all (Lutz et al 2013)
>Malaria appears to have originated from gorillas (Liu et al 2010) and is, of course, spread by mosquitoes.
>Cocoliztli was the single greatest killer in colonial Mexico (killing up to 17 million people in the 1540s alone) and originated in rodents (Acuna-Soto et al 2002)
>HIV emerged from SIV, its simian counterpart (Sharp and Hahn 2011)

>>17870035
>The Cocoliztli Epidemic or the Great Pestilence was an outbreak of a mysterious illness characterized by high fevers and bleeding which caused 5–15 million deaths in New Spain during the 16th century. The Aztec people called it cocoliztli, Nahuatl for pestilence. It ravaged the Mexican highlands in epidemic proportions, resulting in the demographic collapse of some Indigenous populations

>Based on the death toll, this outbreak is often referred to as the worst epidemic in the history of Mexico. Subsequent outbreaks continued to baffle both Spanish and native doctors, with little consensus among modern researchers on the pathogenesis. However, recent bacterial genomic studies have suggested that Salmonella, specifically a serotype of Salmonella enterica known as Paratyphi C, was at least partially responsible for this initial outbreak. Others believe cocoliztli was caused by an indigenous viral hemorrhagic fever, perhaps exacerbated by the worst droughts to affect that region in 500 years and poor living conditions for Indigenous peoples of Mexico following the Spanish conquest (c. 1519)

>The reducciones brought people and animals in much closer contact with one another. Animals imported from the Old World were potential disease vectors for illnesses. The Aztecs and other Indigenous groups affected by the outbreak were disadvantaged due to their lack of exposure to zoonotic diseases. Given that many Old World pathogens may have caused the cocoliztli outbreak, it is significant that all but two of the most common species of domestic mammalian livestock (llamas and alpacas being the exceptions) come from the Old World.

>>17870033
>>17870035
>>17870036
The most ironic thing about this issue is that the most iconic/well-known Aztec symbol is the Nahui Ollin wheel.

>>17869964
Bizarre thing is that the sail apparently fell in and out of use across history. Like there are hints that sail ships existed in the Channel, Baltic an North Sea during the bronze age, but they were allegedly gone by the Iron Age.

>>17870205
phantom time

>>17870225
More like pandemic time.

>Yersinia pestis (Y. pestis; formerly Pasteurella pestis) is a gram-negative, non-motile, coccobacillus bacterium without spores. It is related to pathogens Yersinia enterocolitica, and Yersinia pseudotuberculosis, from which it evolved. Yersinia pestis is responsible for the disease plague, which caused the Plague of Justinian and the Black Death, one of the deadliest pandemics in recorded history. Plague takes three main forms: pneumonic, septicemic, and bubonic. Y. pestis is a facultative anaerobic parasitic bacterium that can infect humans primarily via its host the Oriental rat flea (Xenopsylla cheopis), but also through aerosols and airborne droplets for its pneumonic form As a parasite of its host, the rat flea, which is also a parasite of rats, Y. pestis is a hyperparasite

>Several species of rodents serve as the main reservoir for Y. pestis in the environment. In the steppes, the natural reservoir is believed to be principally the marmot. In the western United States, several species of rodents are thought to maintain Y. pestis

>In 2010, researchers in Germany definitively established, using PCR evidence from samples obtained from Black Death victims, that Y. pestis was the cause of the medieval Black Death

>In 2011, the first genome of Y. pestis isolated from Black Death victims was published, and concluded that this medieval strain was ancestral to most modern forms of Y. pestis

>In 2015, Cell published results from a study of ancient graves. Plasmids of Y. pestis were detected in archaeological samples of the teeth of seven Bronze Age individuals, in the Afanasievo culture in Siberia, the Corded Ware culture in Estonia, the Sintashta culture in Russia, the Unetice culture in Poland, and the Andronovo culture in Siberia. In 2018, the emergence and spread of the pathogen during the Neolithic decline (as far back as 6,000 years ago) was published

>>17870303
>A site in Sweden was the source of the DNA evidence and trade networks were proposed as the likely avenue of spread rather than migrations of populations. There is evidence that suggests Y. pestis may have originated in Europe in the Cucuteni–Trypillia culture, not in Asia as is more commonly believed

>DNA evidence published in 2015 indicates Y. pestis infected humans 5,000 years ago in Bronze Age Eurasia, but genetic changes that made it highly virulent did not occur until about 4,000 years ago. The highly virulent version capable of transmission by fleas through rodents, humans, and other mammals was found in two individuals associated with the Srubnaya culture from the Samara region in Russia from around 3,800 years ago and an Iron Age individual from Kapan, Armenia, from around 2,900 years ago. This indicates that at least two lineages of Y. pestis were circulating during the Bronze Age in Eurasia. The Y. pestis bacterium has a relatively large number of nonfunctioning genes and three "ungainly" plasmids, suggesting an origin less than 20,000 years ago. One such strain has been identified from about 4000 BP (the "LNBA lineage" (Late Neolithic and Bronze Age lineage)) in western Britain, indicating that this highly transmissible form spread from Eurasia to the far north-western edges of Europe

>In 2021, researchers found a 5,000-year-old victim of Y. pestis, the world's oldest-known, in hunter-gatherer remains in the modern Latvian and Estonian border

>>17870323
>Between 5,300 and 4,900 YBP, the population of Neolithic farmers in northern Europe underwent a marked decline. It had not been determined whether this was the result of agricultural recession or from Y. pestis infection within the population. A 2024 study of Neolithic graves in Denmark and western Sweden concluded that plague was sufficiently widespread to be the cause of the decline, and that there were three outbreaks in Northern Europe between 5,200 years ago and 4,900 years ago, with the final outbreak caused by a strain of Yersinia pestis with reshuffled genes. However, another recent study, contests this notion. Based on 133 individuals from gallery graves of the Wartberg Culture, a research team from Kiel University (Collaborative Research Centre 1266) found Yersinia pestis in two individuals only. This indicates that there was no large-scale disease outbreak in this cultural context. Moreover, they found that a dog was infected

>Suspecting that an infection similar to plague might have been involved, the same team analysed 89 billion fragments of raw DNA data from the Bronze Age skeletons in search of Y. pestis sequences. Teeth from 7 of the 101 individuals tested positive, and 2 contained enough plague DNA to generate complete genome sequences. The oldest of the Bronze Age plague strains came from an individual who lived nearly 5,000 years ago in southeast Russia, pushing back the origins of plague by some 3,000 years. The findings are published today in Cell

>Such outbreaks could have aided the spread of Eastern European steppe herders known as the Yamnaya during the Bronze Age, says Johannes Krause, an evolutionary geneticist at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena, Germany. The Yamnaya rapidly supplanted local farming populations in Western Europe between 3000 and 2500 bc. “How is it possible that the local farmers have been replaced by people from the steppe? A pandemic is a good possibility,” Krause says

>>17870303
>>17870323
>>17870327
The most ironic thing of all is we now know from genomic evidence that with the onset of the Neolithic Revolution the effective (i.e. breeding) male population fell dramatically even as general population exploded, and at peak there were SEVENTEEN breeding females to one breeding male. Indicative of whole clans or tribes having all their males exterminated and females seized and / or extreme social stratification in breeding rights among those first settled humans and farmers.

Yamnaya did with diseases what the ANF ancestors of the EEF did with the Neolithic Revolution and it was worse.

>>17870303
>>17870323
>>17870327
The most ironic thing of all is we now know from genomic evidence that with the onset of the Neolithic Revolution the effective (i.e. breeding) male population fell dramatically even as general population exploded, and at peak there were SEVENTEEN breeding females to one breeding male. Indicative of whole clans or tribes having all their males exterminated and females seized and / or extreme social stratification in breeding rights among those first settled humans and farmers.

Yamnaya did with diseases what the AHG/ANF ancestors of the EEF did with the Neolithic Revolution and it was worse.

>>17869959
>>17870033
Sorry I don't buy this. im not one of those annoying /pol/ schizos whos gonna call them inferior over it, i know they were an impressive and sophisticated civilization, but thats not a satisfying explanation for why they wouldnt just use wheelbarrows and hand carts, they had large paved areas where they would be useful. They had wheels, they had good reasons to use them, i dont understand why they didnt

>>17870640
>wheelbarrows and hand carts

They can't handle giant rocks. The use of these things in Europe is literally contemporary to the end of the Toltec Empire and beginning of Nahuatl/Mexica immigration.

>The first wheelbarrows in medieval Europe appeared sometime between 1170 and 1250. In contrast to the ones which typically have a wheel in the center of the barrow and were preferred in China, the types mostly used in Europe featured a wheel at or near the front, the arrangement of most wheelbarrows today

>Research on the early history of the wheelbarrow is made difficult by the marked absence of a common terminology. The historian of technology M.J.T. Lewis has identified in English and French sources four mentions of wheelbarrows between 1172 and 1222, three of them designated with a different term. According to the medieval art historian Andrea Matthies, the first archival reference to a wheelbarrow in medieval Europe is dated 1222, specifying the purchase of several wheelbarrows for the English king's works at Dover. The first depiction appears in an English manuscript, Matthew Paris's Vitae duorum Offarum, completed in 1250

>By the 13th century, the wheelbarrow proved useful in building construction, mining operations, and agriculture. However, going by surviving documents and illustrations the wheelbarrow remained a relative rarity until the 15th century. It also seemed to be limited to England, France, and the Low Countries

>The oldest wheelbarrows preserved from Central Europe were found in 2014 and 2017 during archaeological excavations in Ingolstadt, Germany. The felling dates of the trees that make up the wheelbarrow boards could be dendrochronologically dated to 1537 for one wheelbarrow and the 1530s for the other

>>17871018
Alright damn wheelbarrows are MUCH younger than I thought they were

>>17869957 (OP)
Demonizing Mesoamerica/the pre-columbian Americas and downplaying its achievements in is a civilizational coping mechanism and safety net. Every single state in the Americas today, and arguably the entire modern world when you take into account all the shit that happened as a result of the columbian exchange and Spain getting infinite gold and silver from it, is at least partially built on the subjugation and obliteration of all the societies in two different continents, so we cope by saying that most of them were dumb primitives and the few who weren't were actually not that impressive anyway and also cartoonishly evil so let's not think about it

>>17872111
It really doesn't fucking matter if people who's civilization fell 500 years ago were good or evil. The people who wont shut up about it are just retarded /pol/cucks jerking off to conquistador fantasies and trying to claim the accomplishments of long dead people as their own to feel better about their loser lives

>>17870035
>Black Death
has an odd narrative. if it came from ships out of constantinople, the entire crew should have been dead long before reaching the first port. let alone the most distant.
>originated in rodents (Acuna-Soto et al 2002)
Or - Salmonella enterica subsp. enterica serovar Paratyphi C. , Nature, Jan. 15 2018, Salmonella enterica genomes from victims of a major sixteenth-century epidemic in Mexico.
real interesting because that's primarily found in asia. and that's a food/water contamination.

>>17872366
jews did it on orders of their alien/demonic overlords

>>17872366
did they. where would they have got the salmonella. how did they transport it. moving something that toxic over long distance would imply experience working with such material

>>17872826
did they. where would they have got the salmonella. how did they transport it. moving something that toxic over long distance would imply experience working with such material

>>17873349
yes, jews were famed medics and have training in biological warfare since prehistory