How did the Normans become English?

>>17870281 (OP)
Racemixing with Anglo-Saxon wymen.

>>17870409
But how long did it take? And on what time-scale?

>>17870281 (OP)
Intermarriage and other interactions with the local population over a number of generations
>>17870680
About a century or two, if you want a more solid date then around the start of Henry III's reign

>>17870281 (OP)
The Anglo-French war made them disassociate themselves from France, especially after they lost Normandy

>>17870752
>>17870761
tell us more

>>17870955
The generation following the conquest was filled with people of mixed Anglosaxon/Norman parentage, importantly a number of these would go into the priesthood and become authors, so we have some awareness of how they viewed themselves and most appear to have regarded themselves as English, even for example Orderic Vitalis (Born to a French father and English mother, but spent almost his entire life in Normandy). Their writings often appear to take an English bias, with veiled criticisms of William the Conquerer
These people however were small fry, and it would take another generation or two for these sentiments to reach the parts of the upper echelons of society, while the monarchy (despite adopting some English trappings) would remain firmly French. However things rapidly shifted during the war between King John and Phillipe II. After the French captured Normandy, both sides demanded declarations of loyalty from the Anglo-Norman nobility, most of whom (especially the major ones) owned estates on both sides of the channel while threatening to seize the lands of those who pledged to the other. A couple of canny noblemen (most notably William Marshall) managed to keep both, but most were forced to choose between which lands they prefered, and this saw most of those who still regarded themselves as more Norman than English to leave the country
Though it's wrong to view this entirely in nationalistic terms, there were many who chose England out of loyalty to John despite regarding themselves as French and some even viewing all those born in England (even with Norman roots) with distain (Peter des Roches, the Bishop of Winchester for one). And there were also those who would go onto invite Prince Louis of France to invade England and replace John (though this might be argued to be irrelevent, since John was no less French than Louis). But the latter group was defeated and forced into political irrelevance, and the former group would soon follow them

>>17870281 (OP)
They didn't. Even in the 17th century they still pronounced their Norman roots and nobles in Scotland of pure Gaelic descent made themselves as Normans

>>17871437
this sounds like horseshit tbf

>>17871424
>Orderic Vitalis
was very critical of the English as well

>>17870680
Orderic Vitalis thought of himself as English and could only speak English until he was in his late teens, and his father probably came over with the Conquest.

>>17871424
The 100 years war/black plague(which happened concurrently) probably solidified the division to a significant degree

>>17871853
You're right of course, but I don't think the criticism of the Anglo-Saxons in his and other chronicles necessarily shows approval* for the invasion, anymore than Gildas' ravings against his fellow Britons is proof he wanted the Saxons on the Island.
William of Malmesbury** might've been a better example overall, but I wanted to point out that Orderic's English identity was strong enough to survive even when in Normandy. Plus Malmesbury was born a bit later.

* not the right word, but I can't think of a better one, Orderic and his ilk definitely thought it was justified, since they believed the invasion to be punishment by God for the sins of the English, but I think perhaps they wish it hadn't "needed" to have occurred
** Who described the battle of Hastings as "a fatal day to England, a melancholy havoc of our dear country"

>>17871995
>for the sins of the English
What were these "sins" according to him?

>>17872027
Quoting Malmesbury for ease, since I still have it open and fortunately it's on the following page from my previous quote, but he and Orderic believed much the same
>Nevertheless, in process of time, the desire after literature and religion had decayed, for several years before the arrival of the Normans. The clergy, contented with a very slight degree of learning, could scarcely stammer out the words of the sacraments ; and a person who understood grammar, was an object of wonder and astonishment. The monks mocked the rule of their order by fine vestments, and the use of every kind of food. The nobility, given up to luxury and wantonness, went not to church in the morning after the manner of Christians, but merely, in a careless manner, heard matins and masses from a hurrying priest in their chambers, amid the blandishments of their wives. The commonalty, left unprotected, became a prey to the most powerful, who amassed fortunes, by either seizing on their property, or by selling their persons into foreign countries ; although it be an innate quality of this people, to be more inclined to revelling, than to the accumulation of wealth. There was one custom, repugnant to nature, which they adopted; namely, to sell their female servants, when pregnant by them and after they had satisfied their lust, either to public prostitution, or foreign slavery. Drinking in parties was a universal practice, in which occupation they passed entire nights as well as days. They consumed their whole substance in mean and despicable houses ; unlike the Normans and French, who, in noble and splendid mansions, lived with frugality. The vices attendant on drunkenness, which enervate the human mind, followed; hence it arose that engaging William, more with rashness, and precipitate fury, than military skill, they doomed themselves, and their country to slavery, by one, and that an easy, victory.

>>17872027
>>17872091
cont
>" For nothing is less effective than rashness ; and what begins with violence, quickly ceases, or is repelled." In fine, the English at that time, wore short garments reaching to the mid-knee ; they had their hair cropped ; their beards shaven ; their arms laden with golden bracelets; their skin adorned with punctured designs. They were accustomed to eat till they became surfeited, and to drink till they were sick. These latter qualities they imparted to their conquerors ; as to the rest, they adopted their manners. I would not, however, have these bad propensities universally ascribed to the English. I know that many of the clergy, at that day, trod the path of sanctity, by a blameless life; I know that many of the laity, of all ranks and conditions, in this nation, were well-pleasing to God. Be injustice far from this account; the accusation does not involve the whole indiscriminately. " But, as in peace, the mercy of God often cherishes the bad and the good together; so, equally, does his severity, sometimes, include them both in captivity."
After which he goes on a spiel about the supposed Godliness of the Normans. How much of this is true, and how much is a post facto justification I couldn't tell you. Possibly a mix of both

They fucked a bunch of Anglos

simple

They just stood up one day and said "Je suis anglais hon hon" and then everyone just had to accept it.

>>17872358
Not really the academic-standard I was hoping for, anon