Why don't they understand the concept of God?

Was the Taiping heavenly kingdom even Christian? I'm not convinced. There was probably a lot lost in translation.

>>17870673 (OP) This data is sus, son. They understand the Tao (God).
https://taoism.net/tao-te-ching-online-translation/

>>17870717
I've read the tao te ching some years ago and I don't remember any mention of God.

>>17870722 Yeah, atheists read Sacred Scriptures and fail to understand what they've read. Those same atheists claims to be Christians, Muslims, Jews or whatever, but they are not.

>>17870673 (OP)
Do keep in mind confessional religion like we suscribe to in the west is not normative in China. For all you know those 93% could engage in religious practices; praying to ancestors, giving to Gods, Qiqong. But not be 'of' a religion like we think of it in the west or even the middle east.
>>17870706
No, it wasn't. Hong literally said Jesus Christ had a wife.

>>17870727
>1800 million people identify as atheist
>they just misspoke though
I've read a good bit of the bible too, he's definitely in that one.

>>17870729
>confessional religion like we suscribe to in the west is not normative in China
that's kind of crazy, no? Religion as a major public institution seems to go back a really long way in the west, like Gobekli Tepe far back

>>17870729
Though they may also be majority atheist (I doubt it, but maybe 33% is). Because their recent history showed the weakness of their traditional rites and beliefs, and no one wants to convert to a strange faith pushed by foreigners or loony cults.

>you gotta worship jews!!1

>Bu Shi.

>>17870743
Oh no they still had state-endorsed religion and such, it was central to their culture. Confucianism revolves around correctly practicing 'the rites', for example.
It's not something you are, it's a thing you do. Your honor the Gods, you honor the nacestors, you meditate on the dao. But you are not an "Ancestorist", or a "Confucian", etc.

>>17870765
To elaborate further, it's not like in the west where Christian is something you are.
For the record, while the many religious currents in China cross-polinate eachother often, they are not the same and monks/scholar still bicker incesably over who is right.
Some of the best refutations of Buddhism were written by confucianists longer before anyone west of Baku even knew what that was.

>>17870673 (OP)
the weak should fear the strong

>>17870673 (OP)
They understand, that's why they dont worship one

>>17870765
It's not something you "are" in the West either, it's a descriptor. You "are" an apolloist if you worship at the apollo temple. Easterners do the same ritual practices, the only difference is a sense of divine involvement. The only reason I can come up with for why China would lack such a framework is if their state is simply too powerful to have religious rivals.

>>17870820
Christian (for example) is very much an identity in the west though.
Historically and to some people even contemporarily.

>>17870673 (OP)
Chinese are too smart to fell on Jewish tricks.

>>17870827
People don't identify with the theology or history, they identify with their own rituals and tribal practices. There's no reason why Chinese couldn't identify the same way except for the lack of an institution to protect those beliefs.

>>17870764
>All gods are Jewish
a-are they really the chosen??

As much potential as there is for mere rhetorical argument ITT, I'm starting to find the subject interesting. You're obviously correct that religion and superstition used to be huge in China, and still are in their way. The question is what changed? When did it change? What's the fundamental philosophical difference, our worlds are so similar but it's NOT just the same thing a different way. I really would like to understand. Maybe rhetorical argument is how we get there.

>>17870868
The difference is that China is meritocratic society and religion always fails in meritocratic setting (see it being removed fgrom science).

>>17870873
>China is [a] meritocratic [society where individuals can gain power]
>religion always fails [to take power] in meritocratic [opposition to secular powers] (see it being removed fgrom science).
Very interesting. It's as though logos and physical force and authority were all one in China.

>>17870835
Well they do, they just don't delineate tribally between the different currents, usually. They do a bit of everything in a sense. Though the Chinese government has always had a hand in promoting or destroying cults. The Tang for example endorsed Daoism the most.

>>17870903
we can surmise that something about religious tribalism is unimportant to them. The only question is what aspect

because logically there's no reason why Timur or some other force couldn't have converted them to Islam, but it just seems improbable somehow.

>>17870673 (OP)
This is somewhat misleading because lack of religion does not preclude spirituality. Many people in China are "spiritual but not religious" because religion implies things like a canon scripture, dedicated places of worship, and a set of spiritual or religious leaders to carry out doctrine, you technically don't need any of these things to be spiritual or believe in some higher power. Most of China is probably a weird combination of atheist and deist with some vaguely defined spiritual framework inspired by the mandate of heaven and ancestor worship

>>17870717
>>17870722
Key line is 象帝之先 which is mistranslated in that link. In this context 帝 is God, not Emperor.
The Dao is not God. The Dao is the zero from which the one (God) emerged.

>>17871125
This is so fascinating. Virtually all cultures have the idea that nothingness or chaos precedes creation, but people west of Iran seem to have discarded chaos as an entity long ago, while in the east it seems to equal the living God in importance.

>>17872448
The Jewish creation myth involves Tohu Va-Vohu (תֹ֙הוּ֙ וָבֹ֔הוּ) which literally means "The Formless Void" and has been interpreted as being inherently chaotic. A Primordial void is also described in Kabbalah. The Ancient Greeks also believed that the Universe was chaotic before creation. Honestly, it seems most pre-Christian belief systems in the West and Near East had similar beliefs and were closer to their Eastern counterparts in this regard. Only post-Christianity does the west and the east diverge in this regard.

>>17872474
Christianity has the waters of the deep before creation. They just aren't a potent force compared to godjak

>>17870673 (OP)
They understand it, they just love sin and darkness.

>>17872491
Them and most other people. Not to go all "muh food" but the party in hell will have much more attendance and human energy.

>>17872530
God actually hates his followers and loves subjecting them to natural disasters and famine

>>17872530
>hell will have much more attendance
Yeah, I know. The Bible clearly teaches that most people are going to burn.
>>17872541
Those flames just got hotter. :)

>>17872546
>most
The Bible doesn't account for 99.99% of people being in hell. It's anachronistic that way.

>>17872548
Ah okay, so you're one of them. Have fun burning, rat.

>>17872554
One of who? Dumb bot. Leave my thread.

>>17870673 (OP)
>>17870868


It's this one: >>17870729

Specifically, it's two things:
1. A lot of Chinese people will say they're 'no religion' in the same way Japanese people will say they're 'no religion', but then you ask them about their day-to-day behaviors and 73% of them regularly attend temple and basically all of them patron religious sights on holidays and engage in day-to-day religious practices like that one Anon mentioned.
2. The Chinese communist party aggressively cracked down on religious society and culture and tried to move the population more towards a "rational, secular, materialist, socialist" group thought that was only loyal to the party and its' figureheads. Replace the energy devoted to worshipping ancestors and furniture placement with communism basically.
Both of these things have lead to the rationalization, or rebranding, of religious practices as "nationalist practices".

>>17870706
It was. It just wasn't exactly Orthodox and the main religious advisor Hong Rengan was a pretty standard Protestant, although his cousin did have some strange ideas like him being the actual literal brother of Christ and that the Holy Spirit didn't exist and instead was him.

>>17870729
>>17870765
>>17870835
>>17872612
>1. A lot of Chinese people will say they're 'no religion' in the same way Japanese people will say they're 'no religion', but then you ask them about their day-to-day behaviors and 73% of them regularly attend temple and basically all of them patron religious sights on holidays and engage in day-to-day religious practices like that one Anon mentioned.

This is an incorrect stereotype of East Asians.

No religion literally means no religion.

China has two organised confessional religions, Buddhism and Daoism (Daoism as organised religion is distinct from the philosophy Daoism)

They have instotution of clerics, a textual religious canon and a defined pantheon of deities.

China also has unorganised folk religion (shenism), with no clerics or strict pantheon (although there are certain core permanent gods like Guan Yu and kitchen god).

Chinese who worship at temples of any of those religions genuinely believe in them. Even folk religionists wouldn't answer no religion.

These surveys are taken in the most modernised cities like Shanghai or Beijing.

People in rural Shanxi or Hanzhong or Guangdong who worship at temples would not answer no religion.

Also Japanese who answer no religion genuinely do not believe in Shinto or Buddhism. They are just cosplaying at festivities for recreation.

>>17870835
> lack of an institution to protect those beliefs.

China literally has religious clerical institutions

Daoism has two sects, Zhengyi and Quanzhen

Zhengyi sect is led by the Zhang family (hereditary leadership in the male line), it has official religious clerics (Daoshi) 2ho can marry and have children.

Quanzhen also has clerics but they are celibate and live in monasteries.

They are organised religions just like Christian churches like Catholic and Orthodox.

It's just that the majority of Chinese do not follow these religions. (Majority of Chinese were never Daoist at any point)

>>17870835
> lack of an institution to protect those beliefs.

China literally has religious clerical institutions

Daoism has two sects, Zhengyi and Quanzhen

Zhengyi sect is led by the Zhang family (hereditary leadership in the male line), it has official religious clerics (Daoshi) who can marry and have children.

Quanzhen also has clerics but they are celibate and live in monasteries.

They are organised religions just like Christian churches like Catholic and Orthodox.

It's just that the majority of Chinese do not follow these religions. (Majority of Chinese were never Daoist at any point)

>>17870743
>>17870729
>>17870765
>>17870772
Confucianism is not a religion and never was a religion.

Daoism (the religion not the philosophy) is a religion, Buddhism is a religion.

Confucianists can believe in a religion or reject religion.

>>17872740
>>17872745
redpill me on daoism. Is there any equivalent west of India? I thought dao was the eternal waters of chaos, how do you worship that?

>>17873378
Zhengyi Daoism is led by a hereditary family (the Zhang family) just like Shia Islam's Imamate (the Twelver and Ismaili understanding of Imanate and nass). The Celestial Master chooses his successor from his male agnatic relatives.

Just like Shia Islam has dhulfiqar, the Celestial Master has a sword passed on from Zhang Daoling.

Daoism philosophy which emerged in the Warring States period is different from Daoism the religion, founded by Zhang Daoling in the Han dynasty. Zhang Daoling was the first Celestial Master.

Religion Daoists believe that Laozi cane back as a god (Taishang Laojun) and appointed Zhang Daoling as Celestial Master and his male descendants as Celestial Masters and gave him his sword and seal.

The Celestial Mastee also canonises new deities like the Catholic Pope canonises saints.

The Celestial Master also determines the Daoist religious textual canon (Daozang).

Zhengyi Daoist clerics (Daoshi) wear robes (daopao) whej doing religious work, but wear casual clothing in their daily normal lives. They conduct exorcism rituals against demons and pray for rain. They use and create talismans against demons. Most of them also have a regular job and they usually initiate their sons as clerics

That's why all the atheist retards claiming Chinese are materialists who don't pray for rain unlike Muslims or Christians have no idea what they are talking about.

Zhengyi Daoist priests marry and are not celibate.

Quanzhen Daoism was founded much later than Zhengyi Daoism, by Wang Chongyang.

Quanzhen Daoist clerics are all celibate. They live in monasteries (male or female monasteries) apart from regular people. They wear their daopao robes all the time.

The male clerics wear their hair in topknots (they don't shave like Buddhist and Catholic monks).

Wang Chongyang appointed one of his disciples as his successor as patriarch of the sect obviously because its not hereditary since they are celibate.

>>17873378
>>17873452
Also the seat of the Zhengyi Daoist Celestial Master is at Longhu mountain. That's where his mansion and temples are.

Shaolin Kung-fu is associated with Mahayana Buddhism at Shaolin temple. Shaolin was originally attributed to Buddhist deity Vajrapani before the fake story about Bodhidharma inventing it was written in the 17th century.

Wudang martial arts and Taichi are associated with Daoism at the Daoist temples in the Wudang mountains, said to be invented by Zhang Sanfeng.

Chaquan is associated with Muslims.

Daoism took over as the state religion of China in the Tang dynasty under Emperor Wuzong in 844-845 and mass persecuted other religions.

Daoists banned Buddhism (both normal Mahayana and Vajrayana), Nestorian Christianity, Manichaenism and Zoroastrianism and destroyed their temples and churches and seized all their assets and defrocked all their clerics.

You get a steady drip feed of bullshit on how Chinese don't have organised religion.

Chinese do have organised religion.

Pointing to syncretic Daoist-Buddhist-folk-Confucian temples, is like poiting to syncretic Hindu-Muslim temples in India or Southeast Asia, and using it to claim Indians have no concept of organised religions and that there aren't Hindus or Muslims but everyone worships both Allah and Krishna.

The syncretic "three religion" temples in China have nothing to do with Orthodox Daoism (Zhengyi and Quanzhen) or Orthodox Buddhism

No, most Chinese don't go to both Buddhist and Daoist temples,they don't have altars where Buddha is next to Laozi.

Folk religionists sometimes add most random gods but even they gave a core pantheon of permanent gods (earth god tudigong, kitchen God, Guan Yu).

Zhengyi Daoists don't worship gods not canonised by the Celestial Master.

>>17870717
>>17870727
How convenient, you just forcefully read whatever is spiritually marketable as perfectly confirming your pre-existing beliefs about a Jewish sky daddy

>>17870673 (OP)
Will they all enjoy burning in hell as the enjoy burning poster says?

>>17873452
>>17873482
What kind of authority is conferred by/on the heavenly master? I appreciate the replies. Presumably he rules forever in heaven. What about earthly powers? It seems like the heavenly master has no problem of evil because he's just the elect of some inscrutable higher power, not a creator.