Why tf did Hitler invade the USSR in 1941 when he was still fighting Britain?

> muh Lebensraum
> muh Slavic subhumans

REALITY CHECK

> literally ignored Napoleon’s playbook
> didn’t finish off UK first
> soviets had infinite manpower + winter buff
> german logistics were a joke for Russian distances
> his own generals told him it was retarded

END RESULTS

Got his entire army frozen/stomped, guaranteed Germany’s L in WW2.

Could've just sat tight, secured Europe, and not speedran his own downfall.

>>17874395 (OP)
> muh Lebensraum
> muh Slavic subhumans
Not the reason why he invaded, dummy.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Führer_to_the_German_People:_22_June_1941

>>17874395 (OP)
He cared more about destroying the USSR than his own country, which is based by the way. He sacrificed Germany’s power to weaken the USSR to a point where it could not last another 50 years, as evidenced by its collapse in 1991.

>>17874395 (OP)
A Nazi/Soviet conflict was inevitable so he did it in 1941 before the USSR could further industrialize. The catastrophic Soviet failure in the Winter War in 1940 made Hitler believe the USSR is ill-equipped to handle an invasion

Because Britain refuses to sue for peace.
He knew they were holding out because the USSR was a factor, and he needed the resources to fight Britain in a long war at sea and air and under blockade regardless.

It's also the fact that he knew there was a closing window of opportunity for Germany to defeat the USSR before they modernize and industrialized. The exact same reason Germany identified in the 1912 war cabinet meeting. In the end he was proven right as USSR become a global power by the end of the decade.

USSR was also making demands on Germany that became increasingly unacceptable, such as territorial annexation on Romania and demands on Bulgaria. Germany couldn't do anything because they were subservient to USSR trade and cooperation, again because of war with Britain, whom was also being supplied by the US, further dividing the resource gap between the two.

And the fear that red army would take an opportunity to strike Germany at a weak moment like with Poland, regardless if Germany is winning or losing the war against Britain.

The window of opportunity became even more clear after the red army debacle in Finland, and the wehrmacht supremacy in France. There was a moment to capitalize on the significant differences for victory to be achievable.

The whole lebebsraum bullshit being the prime motivation is nothing but propaganda to make Hitler seem like a mad dog, but one also shouldn't pretend that lebenstaum wasn't in Hitlers list of motivations either, it just wasn't at the top of the list. More like the cream on the cake if everything goes successfully.

>>17874395 (OP)
How about the ideological angle? If you try to read mien kampf half the book is his rambles about Bolshevism . Also do you think in hindsight he regretted the move? I think it would’ve been easier for Germany to coexist with a strong USSR than UK-US ignoring the race question.

>>17874502
You believe in the AJP Taylor thesis and probably the Suvorov trash too strongly that Hitler was just a rational actor playing geopolitics. Lebensraum was the reason and that’s obvious if you learn enough about Nazi ideology and read more.

>>17874395 (OP)
Germany had already beaten the Russians in a two front war two decades before.
The extreme successes in Poland, France, and the Balkans gave the Germans reason to believe they could stomp the Red Army, which they did, Barbarossa destroyed more Soviet Divisions in the Western Districts than the size of the Red Army at the start of the war, the Red Army took something like 107% casualties.
German industry and heartland resources would lead to a swift defeat of Britain, not even the US could have saved them at that point.

>>17874502
>>17874518

>>17874522
>Hitler was irrational and driven by Lebensraum despite him rarely ever talking about it and otherwise being a very grounded and strategically minded individual
L O L
Hitler talked about Czechoslovakia more than he talked about Lebensraum.
What does it even mean he wanted Lebensraum? They had enough space in Poland already, what are they going to do? Fill up the entire Heartland? How? They couldnt, EVERY time they speak of Lebensraum it was always about a great unified European people lead by German facing off against Asia.

You havent even read Mein Kampf, Second Book, or Hitler's speeches.

>>17874518
>race question
It was official NSDAP policy to recognize Slavs as an Aryan people.
people always say "they thought they were le master race and the slavs were heckin subhumans" but have you even checked their official racial policy?
Richard Rein wrote the State Policy of National Socialist Germany, Slavs were considered an Aryan people and a European people.

>>17874522
>Suvorov
Nope because historians has found no proof that Stalin planned on attacking in 1941, nor that Barbarossa was motivated as an immediate preemptive strike by the Germans. I did however argue that the Soviets could break the pact eventually, which historians concur with, which led you to project hard on me with accusations and presumptions which is very low iq but whatever.
I constantly argue against chuds who believes in Suvorov because (despite no proof) it also made no sense for Stalin to attack so soon after Finland, and wehrmach success in France. Stalin needed time. And he did everything to stall for time, even as invasion was imminent.

But nice job looking like an asshole. Anything more you presume about me that you want to get off your chest?

>>17874522
AJP Taylor is based though, not sure why you're taking shots at him. Anyway fuck you sound like a reddit faggot trying to gatekeep.

Why don't you tackle the arguments?

>>17874522
If only there were high ranking National Socialists who answered direct questions about why the Germans attacked the USSR.
You will somehow pretend he was lying for some reason.

https://www.historynet.com/lost-prison-interview-with-hermann-goring-the-reichsmarschalls-revelations/
> Were Hitler’s fears of Russia military or ideological? Did he fear communism’s spread or Russia’s military might?
Hitler feared a military attack. Molotov made the following demands in February 1941: a second war on Finland, to result in Russian occupation of the entire country; invasion of Romania and occupation of part of the country; strengthened Russian position in Bulgaria; solution of the Dardanelles question (none of us wished to see Russia there); and the question of the Skagerrak and the Kattegat. This made us fall out of our chairs, it was so incredible. This was the last straw; Molotov was not to be heard any further. Germany would not even discuss it.

We would have no objections to Russia having a sphere of influence in Finland, but Hitler felt that if Russia occupied the whole of Finland, she would reach out to Swedish iron ore mines and the port of Narvik, and we did not want the Russians as our northern neighbors, with troops in Scandinavia. The German people were also very sympathetic toward the valiant Finns. The Russian move northwest would have tended to outflank Germany. Similarly, the Russians in Romania might not necessarily go south, but might move westward to encircle Germany on that side. By denying us the nickel of Finland and the grain and oil of Romania, Russia could have exerted economic pressure against us, and in 1942 or so proceeded to direct military action. These were the main reasons that kept us from arriving at any agreement.

>>17874569
In November 1940, when the first alarming reports came from the east, Hitler gave his first orders to OKW regarding the steps which would have to be taken if the situation with Russia became dangerous. Provision had to be made for the eventuality of a Russian attack. In March 1941, Hitler made up his mind to launch a preventive attack on Russia as a practical matter. I had favored making more concessions to Molotov, since I believed that if Russia invaded Finland and Romania, the differences between her and Britain and the United States would have become insuperable. Hitler, however, was personally distrustful of Russia all the time and saw in her, with the mighty armaments she had been piling up for 10 years, the great future enemy of Germany. Hitler’s inward mistrust remained deep even though not expressed. He wanted to reject all of Molotov’s demands in February 1941, whereas those of my opinion felt that a second Finnish war and a Russian drive on the Dardanelles would rupture the already tense relations between Russia and the Anglo-Saxon powers. In the long run, Russia might then fight England and not against us.

What Stalin’s real intentions were, I don’t know — whether he wanted to move toward the Dardanelles, or to attack Germany. If we had granted Russia’s demands, we might have had her join with us in a four-power pact, replacing the Three-Power Pact. I did not want to attack Russia. I wanted to carry out the Gibraltar plan, and I also did not want to see my Luftwaffe split between the Eastern and Western fronts. Russia was developing a position completely and finally contradictory to the interests of the British.

>>17874567
You are the asshole. You still don’t understand Nazi ideology and how Lebensraum was pivotal for them. I’d recommend you read Johann Chapoutot’s book la loi du sang translated as the law of blood in English if you don’t speak German and aren’t willing to read primary sources. Anyone who believes in the geopolitical rational Hitler is an idiot. Lebensraum and the colonization of the east by the Nordic-Germanic race was the major motive behind WW2.

>>17874573
>Nazi ideology
There is no such thing as "Nazi Ideology"
They did whatever they wanted as best fit their practical interests, they werent ideological. If The Soviet ideology demanded a square peg go into a round hole, they would die on that hill. The Germans not so much, they Aryanized many jews, they spoke highly of their enemies, they played Real-politik to the best of their abilities.
>primary sources
You literally dont even know what their Official state policy on race was, shut the fuck up.
>lebensraum was the major motivation
Then why dont ever talk about it compared to Czechoslovakia, France, Poland? Hitler mentions these countries MORE than Lebensraum.

And how would Lebensraum even work?
It wouldnt, they didnt have the population to immediately move millions of people out of Germany and into the East.
>they were just irrational
or maybe just maybe, your hypothesis doesnt make sense because its fucking retarded, not because the Germans were thinking 18 year old Germans would spring out of the ground.

>>17874573
Lol the majority of historians are on my side that war was driven for pragmatic purposes. And even if we don't assume that, you should at least admit that there is a clear debate on the topic among historians what actually motivated many of germanys decisions; reactionary vs ideological.
Just because you read one book that focus on one, doesn't mean it's consensus. I know that Richard Overy argues my position, and he's one of the leading historians on ww2.

And if ww2 was completely ideological, then how come NSDAP never planned for war with Poland until early 1939, until negotiations had broken down. If it was solely ideological then they would have made plans immediately with Wehrmacht rearmament many years earlier.
And Ribbentrop firmly believed that German cooperation with USSR was real and sincere, he was actually chocked and protested when Hitler decided on Barbarossa, proving that it wasnt rooted NADAP ideology.

And again, you made absolute zero effort to tackle my arguments in my >>17874502 post, all you did was kicking abd screaming and putting accusations on me for being a Hitler apologist, next thing you're gonna accuse me of denying the holocaust, all because I dare say that the Hitler-mad-dog narrative has been mostly propaganda.

>>17874573
>Nordic-Germanic race
You have fallen for propaganda and have no actual experience reading the primary sources or even secondary sources which are not created by rancid lunatics. German racial science wasn't Nordicist and Hitler was personally opposed to that line of thinking, the mainstream German position and official policy was to view the German people as being mostly made up of the Dinaric, Alpine, and Nordic groups in varying amounts. Read "Short Ethnology of the German People" by Gunther.

>>17874568
There’s nothing to gatekeep. Taylor did not understand the ideology and racial theories of the nazis. He assumed Hitler was some sort of rational actor who didn’t want war and his ideas are old, stupid, and dated. I recommend you read Weinberg but if you dismiss him for being Jewish then Chapoutot.

>>17874579
>There is no such thing as "Nazi Ideology"
There is and you can read it yourself
>They did whatever they wanted as best fit their practical interests, they werent ideological
They were extremely ideological to the point of it interfering with their decision making all the time.
>You literally dont even know what their Official state policy on race was, shut the fuck up.
Their policies like Generalplan Ost, Operation Tannenberg, the Hungerplan, mass slaughters of civilians in response to partisan activity, and the Commissar Order
>they Aryanized many jews, they spoke highly of their enemies,
They spoke highly of their enemies? Who cares. Nonexistent argument. Look at the practical consequences of their actions
>Then why dont ever talk about it
They did all the time constantly
>It wouldnt, they didnt have the population to immediately move millions of people out of Germany and into the East.
They would Germanize the small portion of the population that looked nordisch or fälisch and also invite colonists from other germanic-nordic nations
>or maybe just maybe, your hypothesis doesnt make sense because its fucking retarded
The beliefs of the nazis were nonsensical and retarded which is a big reason why they lost WW2

>>17874585
They are wrong and mostly idiot Brits and amerimutts. The leading historians in France like Chapoutot and Ingrao agree with me, who have way better levels of education and writing and rely much more on primary sources and speak German. And even the newer Anglo historians agree. Taylor was wrong.

>>17874594
>Taylor did not understand the ideology and racial theories of the nazis.
Nope he didn't do that. You're just making shut up. Taylor knew who the nazies were, but Taylor effectively PROVED that ww2 wasn't planned from the beginning, which had been the prevailing narrative since 1945.
That doesn't mean he ever denied.

>He assumed Hitler was some sort of rational actor who didn’t want war
Taylor literally doesn't argue this. He argues that Hitler did not want a world war in 1939, but a local war with Poland only. The prevailing narrative after 1945 was that Germany had planned world war since the beginning, which there is zero credible evidence for when you really start to look at what actually happened. So Taylor was right.

>I recommend you read Weinberg but if you dismiss him for being Jewish then Chapoutot.
Lol OK it didn't take long before you accused me of antisemitism. You really are a fucking redditor aren't you? Trying to gatekeep your propagandacized version of ww2 because god forbid someone question the "madman Hitler" narrative. They must be nazies if they do reeeeeee

>>17874598
>British and American historians are wrong because they just are ok?
Sounds like bias to me. I'm gonna stick with my >>17874502 post because it still makes the most sense to me (and I'm only copying what other historians have written, including Overy). Again you made zero attempts at tackling the arguments with your "naaah there was no logical reason, Hitler was just crazed for clay". Very convincing.

>>17874559
So you are telling me operation Barbarossa was entirely pragmatic? Nothing more than a geopolitical calculation?

>>17874614
Nothing is entirely anything, don't play word games. The overriding consideration of the Germans was practical.

>>17874602
>Taylor knew who the nazies were
not really
>but Taylor effectively PROVED that ww2 wasn't planned from the beginning, which had been the prevailing narrative since 1945.
>He argues that Hitler did not want a world war in 1939, but a local war with Poland only.
Of course he didn't want a world war. He wanted a racial war against the east for Lebensraum and didn't want Britain and France to interfere with it but he was still willing to fight that war if it was necessary. Nazis thought that without Lebensraum Germany would never be a world power and the nordic-germanic race would eventually die.
>Lol OK it didn't take long before you accused me of antisemitism
I didn't
>god forbid someone question the "madman Hitler" narrative
Good job misrepresenting what I am saying as "madman Hitler". Hitler's decisions operated within the framework of national socialist ideology. Mein Kampf, Zweites Buch, Hossbach Memorandum articulate a vision of war and racial conquest for Lebensraum years before hostilities began. Unlike the idiotic image Taylor tries to paint of a leader caught off guard by geopolitics and diplomacy. His dismissal of Hitler’s ideological motivations is intellectual negligence and dishonesty ignoring mountains of evidence about it.

>>17874591
No /pol/ you have fallen for revisionist propaganda or are a liar. And I've read Günther including Rassenkunde des deutschen Volkes, you are referring to Kleine Rassenkunde. He was a nordicist and his racial classification system which was a rigid hierarchy with nordics as supreme was the one in use by the nazis. Günther believed in Lebensraum and Aufnordung which was the selective breeding and higher birthrate of nordics to the detriment of the other "races", even within Germany. You literally cited a guy who is emblematic of everything I have said.

>>17874556
> You havent even read Mein Kampf, Second Book, or Hitler's speeches.
I don't read nazi propaganda garbage and neither should you.

>>17874614
That's not what we are arguing (at least not me).
Simply saying that lebensraum wasn't the sole reason and not even the primary reason for going in on the USSR.
It was because the situation required it. And you yourself have made zero efforts to disprove the rational arguments that supports this.

Germany was in a losing war with the British empire, supplied by USA. Thr British blockade was slowly starving Germany and Germany lacked resources for a war at sea and air and overseas, something Britain could assemble.
Britain also held out because USSR was a factor they were betting on to become involved.
Hitler didn't attack USSR while at war with the commonwealth empire because he was a stupid mad dog. He attacked because it was necessary to Germanys situation. He needed to end the war, or otherwise find the resources to wage it. He needed to remove the ussr because they were encroaching on Germany and her allies with every deal made, on Finland, on Romania, on Bulgaria.

And he only had a window of opportunity to do so.

Lebensraum was a factor but it wasnt THE factor. It was more cherry on the cake.

>>17874654
>not really
Ok at what point does Taylor deny nazi racial and antisemitic and imperialistic agenda?
Just because he doesn't constantly apply it as a copy-paste to every decision made by Germany.

This is nothing but Mccarthyism, pure baseless accusations that everyone is a nazi sympathizer if they don't fall in line.

>Of course he didn't want a world war.
Ok so you admit that you were wrong, because you said Taylor argued Hitler did not want war at all, which is bullshit. Taylor simply argued that Hitler didn't plan world war, which is true, and you should accept that it's true you moron. Taylor effectively proved that Hitler only wanted a local war with Poland, not a world war with Britain and France. Before Taylor the prevailing narrative was that Gemany had planned world war since the beginning.

>I didn't
Why did you even bother with the punch about me presuming Weinberg can't be trusted fir being a jew then? Seems a bit unnecessary, unless you wanted to plant the seed that I was low-key nazi.
Kinda subversive tactics. Wouldn't expect less from a gatekeeping redditor tho.

>Good job misrepresenting what I am saying as "madman Hitler"
Because it's exactly what you're doing.
Yor only explanation fir Hitler invading the USSR was because he wasn't thinking clearly, not logical or rational, that ideology blinded his reason. That's literally your argument.
He just decided to open up a second front despite being at war with Britain and her 1/4 global domain which Germany was losing against, simply for the reason of "I must have more clay for thousand year settlements!!!".

If that's not madman then I don't know what is.
Your shit makes no sense whatsoever.
Look no one is denying that race and lebensraum wasn't a thing, but you should seriously take a step back and maybe reconsider which one of us is being irrational here.
We have endless examples of Hitler thinking rationally with the greater picture in mind.

The main goal was to capture territory between the A-A Line. Additionally, Hitler planned to "Germanize" the captured territory.

>>17874714
With colonization of German and germanic settlers and deportation, killing, and enslavement of the people living there except germanization of the small minority who looked nordic enough besides western Ukraine and the Baltic states which were considered to have higher racial value and greater nordic blood so far more would be germanized in those places. Although half or more of the population would still be genocided they wouldn't be treated as harshly as Poland or Russia.

>>17874395 (OP)
growth mindset.
> REALITY CHECK
Historically, leadership is not good at that. True today.

>>17874663
>Nazi leadership was propagandizing itself
was their tax policy also propaganda?

>>17874614
Yes, it was entirely pragmatic, Regardless of the concept of Ostsiedlung and Lebensraum, Barbarossa was first and foremost a means to gain the resources to actually force Britian into peace.
If the Germans were solely after Lebensraum, well, why didnt they begin with Poland? If they didnt even reach pre-WWI levels of Germans in Poland, why would they go for more land? It just doesnt make sense to say that Lebensraum drove them when a much better explanation is they were after Heartland resources, they literally said "we need this oil and grain or the war is lost".
They never said "the only way to beat England is to take everything from Silesia to the Urals then wait 17 years for a new generation of Hitler Youth recruits to crop up in Eastern Europe then we can swarm the UK

>>17874845
Agricultural land and resources like oil were part of Lebensraum. Nobody ever said it was just about square meters of land. This is just such a disingenuous argument.

>>17874594
>there is
There isnt, they have no canonical work.
>you can read it
Read What? Mein Kampf doesnt have any ideology, The second book doesnt have any ideology.
These are journals and thoughts of Hitler and Hitler changed his thoughts over the years.
>extremely ideological
how?
>interfering with decision making
Give examples.
>policies like General Plan Ost
A "policy" which was never actually implemented and never left the theorization stage.
>Tannenberg
Security measures are not racial policy.
>Hungerplan
a strategy to feed their vast eastern force in hostile land is not derived from ideology you retarded monkey.
Logistical organization is not ideology.
>security against Partisans
This isnt ideological.
>Commissar order
This is the only thing remotely ideological and its not ideology but hatred of communists that made them do this, everything else you listed had practical not ideological reasons behind it.
>who cares
It means they werent ideological like (You) where you are literally unable to give the Germans the credit their due.
>they did all the time
No they didnt, Ctrl F Hitler's speeches, he rarely talks about Lebensraum, he talks about France more than Lebensraum, Czechoslovakia more than Lebensraum.
>they would invite people and germanize
and it still wouldnt be enough, we can conclude Lebensraum was not a serious policy and not one they even tried to implement.
>beliefs were nonsensical
like what?
>a big reason they lost
yeah right, it was their personal feelings about jews and not the fact 85% of the planet mobilized against them.

Their beliefs were ultimately correct.
FYI, ideology is NOT synonymous with beliefs.

>>17874849
You were literally saying that Hitler invaded USSR purely from an ideological reasoning with your AJP Taylor being a revisionist bullshit. Now you're low-key admitting that the invasion of USSR was strategically motivated because they needed resources to fight Britain.

At least we're heading in the right direction because you're starting to use your brain instead of parroting propagandacized myths that Hitler was just a irrational mad dog.

>>17874856
Lol you're being completely wrong about lebensraum not being a factor, and completely apologetic about Generalplan ost. The Germans started torching towns and people as soon as they occupied an area.

The other anon is a reddit faggot trying to make Hitler seem like a mad dog according to post-war propaganda, but you are a /pol/ stormchud trying to paint the Germans like they dindu nuffin.

I honestly hate you both.