For Sunni Muslims it is absolutely essential in 2025 to have a 16-hour debate with Shias about Mua'wiyah or Yazeed or for a Salafi Muslim to spend all day digging up quotes from scholars about Allah's attributes and presenting them to Sufi Muslims as evidence. In Islamic discourse there is not an Arabic Islamic book in existence that hasn't been scoured with painstaking precision to find scholarly quotes supporting positions. This is the case across ALL schools of thought within Islam. Everyone has a stack of history books at his disposal, ready to defend his position. Everyone is well-versed on the who's who of Islamic history.

None of this happens when it comes to Christian sects and groups. You will not find average American patriots arguing with Croatian Catholics or Mormons refuting Calvinists. If this does happen, it's done in the form of insults and memes and banter, not hard scholarly evidence and serious debate.

Only highly educated Christian theologians engage with this, but not Christians in the slums of Brazil or the suburbs of Canada. Yet for Muslims packed into European ghettos or Bangladeshi mud huts, these affairs are of absolutely critical importance. No Muslim is ignorant of his school of thought. A Muslim can tell another Muslim with lucid clarity why he follows Abu Hanifa or why he follows Muhammad Ibn Abdul-Wahhab or Ibn Taymiyyah, but how many Christians can tell you why they admire St. Patrick, Origen or Aquinas?

>>17889109 (OP)
Almost none of the regular Muslims I've ever talked to were even familiar with the hadith. Find a random one in a chat room or on Facebook and they'll barely know a thing about it.

>>17889109 (OP)
Nigga I'm not talm bout allat

Christians love St. patrick because he was a based anglo from benaventa who sailed to Dublin county and baptised thousands of uneducated peasants

>abrahamic nonsense

who cares

>>17889109 (OP)
>Mormons refuting Calvinists
Servetus was orthodox and he was persecuted by heretics
Hearsay is anything imposed at variance with scripture
Filioque is hearsay, it is interpretable in an orthodox way but was never a part of the creed in the first place, and forcing people to confess it is heretical and schismatic
Calvin's Institutes literally does apologetics for satan in developing determinism, so it is clearly "doctrines of devils" and not the true gospel
I don't like to pick on lesser theologians whose feebleness and wroth overcame them

>>17889109 (OP)
Aquinas wrote a pretty good summary book and claimed Jesus affirmed it orthodox in vision

>>17889643
What gives you trouble in understanding?

>>17889109 (OP)
In short: Christians do not want to conflate faith with culture/politics/ethnic-supremacy.

>>17889109 (OP)
Have fun burning, shitskin.

>>17889661
Looks like he understands too much.

>>17889643
Have fun burning, shitjeet.
>>17889655
Epic LARP. Enjoy Hell.

>>17889666
Nigga he ain’t wrong, the common evangelical and nondenominational (denominational) Christian are ignorant of the canonization of the Bible

>>17889671
Enjoy the Book of Mormon.

>>17889667
If only we could all return to the plain truths indeed

>>17889735
>Enjoy the Book of Mormon.

Thank you. I repent in sackcloth and ashes. Praise the Lord Alleluia Amen.

>>17889109 (OP)
Behold the islamic dilemma :
Surah Ali'Imran 3:3 - confirms the Gospels and Torah in between the hands of Christians and Jews. bayna yadayhi in that verse means between their hands.

Surah Al-Ma'idah 5:68 - confirms the existence of the Gospels/Injeel and Torah in possession of Christians and Jews at the time of Muhammed.

Sunan Abu Dawud book 38 number 4434 - Muhammed places his hands on the Torah and says "I believe in thee and in Him Who revealed thee."
If you claim the Injeel and Torah referenced in the Quran (at the time of Muhammed) is the Bible, you still must explain why it's being confirmed as the truth at the time of Muhammed given that we have bibles, parchments, and manuscripts in that time. Not to mention that would contradict the whole belief of Islam.
If you claim the Injeel and Torah referenced in the Quran (at the time of Muhammed) is not the Bible, you must explain where the Injeel and Torah have gone and why we have books not only named Torah at the time of Muhammed, but also why Christians were carrying an Injeel that was never referenced in other books (other than the Quran/Islamic Books) nor preserved to this day. Not only this, but we have records that affirm the beliefs of Christians in the 7th century such as the Third Council of Constantinople.
You really have to go above and beyond to explain this discrepancy, that is really more plausibly explained by the Injeel and Torah referenced in the Quran, being the Bible we have today.

>>17889932
part 2
If Muhammed confirms the Injeel and Torah that are in his possession or in the possession of others, he is claiming that they are true and all that is in them is from Allah. If Muslims want to claim then that the Injeel or Torah is a separate book, they then have to provide answers to the following questions (remembering for each question, that Muhammed confirmed the Injeel and Torah he had or others had during his time in the 7th century):

Where is the Injeel and why do you claim it isn't preserved or is lost?

Why is the Injeel, despite all evidence of it being the Bible, not the same Bible we have today?

If Muhammed laid hands on the Torah, confirming its truth, and we have Torah today matching the ones existing in his time, then which book was he confirming?

How do you suppose Muhammed can claim the truth of these books and be right in his claims?

The dilemma of this argument lies in these procedures:

Things to note before reading procedures:

a book claiming to have no contradictions must not have contradictions

a book claiming to be directly from God or passed onto Muhammed through God must be a revelation that reflects God in his all knowing ability (he can't claim the Bible is true if its not)

If God is deceiving Muhammed (in this verse), first off, why, and secondly, God cannot lie (due to moral objectivism).

Procedure one:

The Quran is true and confirms the Bible

The Bible does not confirm the Quran

The Quran is false

Procedure two:

The Quran is false in confirming the Bible

The Quran has falsehoods/mistakes

The Quran is not true revelation from God

The Quran is false

Procedure three:

The Bible is false

The Quran confirms the Bible

The Quran confirms a false document as the work of Allah

The Quran has falsehoods/mistakes

The Quran is not the true revelation from God

The Quran is false

All that can be concluded logically is that the Quran is false.

>>17889109 (OP)
Even though I do think the average Muslim that actually cares about his religion (not the fake Muslims that only follow the law of not eating pork) does know more then the average Christian on their own faith. For example by trying to figure out if the Law applies to this or that situation by referring to scholars for example and even in debate they can bring up arguments by scholars and try to read primary sources, there’s still a good amount of Muslims that do this badly.
For example some sunni will bring up arguments against us Shia by bringing up things that don’t apply to modern Shia like believing that the Quran is incomplete or Gabriel accidentally brought the Quran to the Prophet. The first claim was by the long dead school of thought the akbaris that believed every single thing in Al-kafi was real. And the latter claim was by an early ghulat sect that died out long ago.
To be fair to the Christians though I dont think Christians really care that much about debating each other anymore so of course you won’t really see the “culture of debate” evolve much amongst the laymen. It’s not really a normal practice. So when you see Christians debate today it’s not to seriously gain knowledge and go to the right path it’s just a minority of people that are mean spirited and want to be disrespectful more then anything so you won’t see any real debate tactics. Just name calling and such.
There’s also the fact that Islam is a greater force in a Muslims life then Christianity to a Christian. There’s not as much responsibility upon the Christian so it just isn’t as big a part of their life so they put less thought upon it.

>>17889109 (OP)
that's horseshit, muslims might be a little better catechized on average than christians but tons of them are exactly what you'd expect from illiterate camel dung shovelers

Islamic civilization has all the shitty parts of african and indian culture, and the cool parts of neither

>>17890263
Islamic civilization is compatible with the scriptures of both Judaism and Christianity and is only as hard for a Christian to accept as Christ is for a Jew to accept. Nothing in the Bible is abrogated either by the Koran, only the corrupt textual traditions are rendered inert.

>>17889936
>later councils like 3 Constantinople
The church suffered many schisms and was less capable to witness to the world outside the Roman Empire being held captive by the state to some degree.

>"Injeel"
New Testament

>not the same as Bible we have today
We do have pure Bibles but we have some to be wary of

>which book?
5 books of Moses or maybe the whole Old Testament

>How can Muhammad claim the truth of these books
He was an infallible prophet

>contradictions
There are absolutely zero between an Arabic Koran and a Christian Bible

>reflects all knowing ability
Read the first page of the longest surah - it warns about the veil of unbelief in God and his revelations

>God decieves?
no

part 1

>>17889936

>2 & 3
See part 1

>1
The Bible does confirm the Koran:
>A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

This is Moses, and the principle is manifest in OT prophets, Jesus, and Muhammad as the Koran confirms

Behold three pieces of leaven:
>New Testament
>Book of Mormon
>Koran and Doctrine and Covenants

>>17889666
Even someone black as coffee can be fair and delightsome, even (You) if you would just repent.

Guess what anons. If you believe in
>abrahamic
>pagan
>dharmic
faiths you are a retard. Good day.

>>17889671
>Have fun burning, shitjeet
i'm not a Pajeet i'm white and a radical atheist

>>17889109 (OP)
Most Muslims know literally nothing about their own religion