why is photobashing entirely accepted in manga, but not tracing?

>>7593974 (OP)
Tracing is allowed too.

>>7593974 (OP)
but it is accepted. they sell photo books with photos to trace, filter or photobash exactly for this purpose.

>>7593974 (OP)
Because a new tech just came out to make it easier and everyone with a pc can use it

>>7593981
Westerners don't realize how badly we got scammed with our bookstores' art sections and art stores' book sections being filled with absolute garbage.
Digging around ebay sellers of japanese art books makes you realize just how much of a variety of useful shit they got.

We got like one okay book every 25 years, and the rest are shit like Christopher Hart, "Now Draw the Rest of The Owl", or books that are moreso just a rant from the artist-authoer.

I stopped following a guy in twitter because he made a post that said "here is my art" amd ot qas 4 pictires like the op with doodle people in it that took him 10 seconds to draw

>>7593974 (OP)
it's accepted, but not everyone does it. miura never did it, he drew all his backgrounds. you'll find that is the case with many great mangaka. if i wanted to be a mangaka i'd strive to me like those ones.

>>7593985
i've noticed this too, it's tragic. and they also got all the best western books translated. they aren't missing out on loomis or hogarth, they have those.

>>7593974 (OP)
I heard Tokyo Ghoul traces over The Sims for interiors designs.

>>7593974 (OP)
Because collage is considered an art form of its own, whereas simply tracing is seen as lazy, and hiding how the sausage was actually made.
That said, tracing won't even be knocked against in the right context - As >>7593981 points out, comic artists (not just manga) artists have been tracing for yonks, but it's almost always just props and backgrounds, characters themselves are not seen as appropriate to trace (as far as I know).

Notice how no one complains about the traced/photobashed backgrounds, yet we hear people constantly bring up the copy/pasted characters from Marvel and DC, such as this infamous page (picrel), likely because we don't really care too much about the backgrounds, and they could almost just be white voids for all we care, but the characters are the actors on the stage, and we want some effort and skill displayed by them (which means we want that from the artist).

>>7593974 (OP)
I always feel insulted when seeing manga and comics that clearly use photographs or 3D assets for backgrounds, be it traced or the original image with a filter slapped on top (in webtoons you even get atrocities like pic related).
Do these artists not feel ashamed when cutting corners to this degree? Yeah, yeah, I know that deadlines exist and people have to eat, but to me, it feels like "Here's your slop, open wide!".

I read comics and manga to look at drawings, and not edited photographs and 3D assets.
Just give me a simple or even crudely drawn background instead of slapping some very obvious premade assets together and calling it a day.

>>7594416
When done skillfully this is used for unimportant panels where you are expected to move quickly thru it, so the artist has more time to work on important things.

You often see this in (again - decent quality) anime where a bunch of lazy animation early in an ep is actually a good sign that the animators reduced the budget on that part to spend EXTRA time for a spectacle later in the ep, or for this ep to be lower-budget so next one could be overbudget - like for finales, important character fights, long action sequences (large run-thru a lot of the setting), large multi-character sub-plots (school festival, beach episode, "everyone unite"), or some situation with complicated effects or designs (like psychadelic scenarios, mecha upgrade/combination, a villain's formchange/true self reveal, or "meeting god" type situations).

When it's done so unskillfully it's jarring and often due to the whole thing running out of money early, never having had much of a budget to begin with, or having had to steal budget from this ep because of problems with the prior ep going overbudget.

>>7594416
i could see that being accepted if it was a running joke, like every few panels theres just this blatant real world picture put in it for humor. but damn they could've at least put a filter or something over it thats lazy as shit

>>7593985
>>7594140
Share those useful books? This is just me, but the instructional Japanese art books shared here on /artbooks/ or elsewhere, are often just a collection of random tutorials. They are often very thin, booklet-like. Felt like a grift honestly.
I mean book lists for Japanese animators/illustrators are usually 99% filled with (translated) Western books. Like https://web.archive.org/web/20240625025317/animatorweb.jp/book.html . Perhaps it's different for mangas.

>>7594428
>When done skillfully this is used for unimportant panels where you are expected to move quickly thru it, so the artist has more time to work on important things.
Again, they should just heavily simplify the background or draw it crudely if they want to save time and energy for more impactful panels, or just straight up don't draw a background at all. The Bleach mangaka got away with that, so why can't they?

I also don't see why anime studio's can't do the same. Jack Chan Adventure has extremely basic and crudely drawn backgrounds, but they're honestly quite charming once you get used to them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFsHx4_pLU8

I'd rather have a half-assed drawing instead of photographs and 3D assets in a 2D medium.

>>7593974 (OP)
its your own photos

>>7594437
The Hidamari Sketch anime did this, with the occasional scanned in object, like a head of lettuce or a teddy bear or Brutus or something. The thing is, it's an intentional stylistic choice that contributes to the odd, charming atmosphere of the show, and is obviously different to blatantly tracing photographs or the shameless use of 3d models, like how every korean webtoon uses the same fucking model of a fantasy castle.

>>7594138
>miura never did it
he straight up dragged 3d models into his mangas, tfum?

>>7594138
Miura has entire spreads with copy pasted 3d tree models. Not even traced or anything, just straight 3d models, jaggies and all.

>>7593974 (OP)
they trace all the time. especially old stuff. prince of tennis assistant has some interviews or old blogs about how they traced magazines for photos and just filled books of traced images for 'reference' and would go pull one out for particular scene, add the logos and hair/eyes and done. initial d is all traced cars.

>>7593985
Christopher Hart is responsible for the shitty comic books of the late 90s and early 2000s, I used to think they were good books, but when you learn more you realize they're just trashy exposition. The guy would bring together different artists, fill the pages of the book with illustrations, and sell them as if they were something useful.

>>7593981
Can someone link me on this?

>/ic/ fags still think you need to do literally everything from imagination and without any kind of shortcut

People like you are what made art unfun for me. I shall break away from your shackles and just draw whatever fucking way I want.

>>7594145
>Notice how no one complains about the traced/photobashed backgrounds
Dunno about you but I constantly see people bitching about this shit. If they didn't, do you really think this thread would have been made? With the OP image it was?

>>7595015
Haha, this thread is probably the first time I've seen someone do so honestly, and the image OP posted is actually from a manga documentary where people were marveling over the artists background collaging techniques, so I think that lends to my assertion over people's general sentiments.

>>7595131
>and the image OP posted is actually from a manga documentary where people were marveling over the artists background collaging techniques, so I think that lends to my assertion over people's general sentiments.
I'm well aware. People have been using it to start arguments online about how it proves the author is an overrated hack fraud or whatever since the day it came out.
The dude can draw characters super well so I never agreed with those arguments even if one does think it's easy to do backgrounds like this (it's really, really not).

>>7595251
Meanwhile my reaction to it was that he was a goddamn genius, and that skill at art is mostly about breaking monumental tasks into easier ones.
I never would have even thought someone could be so crappy as to see Asano's process and get mad. What the fuck?
Did they JUST watch the Asano episode and not the others where each mangaka is using all kinds of silly techniques??

>>7595291
I'm kinda jealous that you don't seem to be aware just how little respect 99% of the users of this website have for the mediums they consume all day. People on /a/ will argue that some of the greatest works of art of all time are actually complete shit just because there's some minor flaw and also reddit likes it.

>>7593974 (OP)
Tracing is so obviously allowed have you even read much manga?

>>7594915
Sure, nodraw
Pyw

>>7593981
I feel like 2D artists should try getting into 3D to expand their worldview. Kitbashing 3D models to create your own scenes or creating your own models from basemeshes is incredibly common. Even interior designers pluck out free furniture models to build rooms for their clients most of the time because their value is on the creating the scenes/rooms/architectures and not just 'able to model a sofa'.Just create something that is transformative in the end. Who the fuck cares about tracing this reference that except a bunch of puritans who are insecure about being capable of drawing something from scratch. Just create something.

>>7593974 (OP)
Kek most manga artist trace everything not just backgrounds hell I'll even say most artist trace. Just not the anime face since you can draw it wrong and still be right

>>7595308
You know the funny part on what you said is? I guarantee that without the shit these fags consume, they would have killed themselves by now. Art is generally was the reason why so many people didn’t kill themselves in mass droves when the stock market crashed, same is happening in modern day life, especially with the kinds of people that use this site.

>>7594915
what do you mean, doing everything from imagination is precisely what would make it the most fun, its being a ref photocopier that is boring professional stuff

>>7596494
False dichotomy

>>7594448
>comparing western slop to superior Asian media
Lol, lmao even.

>>7594448
>why can't manga and anime be like muh westoid cartoons
Good thing Japanese art does not cater to swines like you. Absolute imbecile.

10/10 if bait

>>7595725
most modern artists trace/use 3d objects to bash or draw over, but take comic book industry of the 80s through 00s - most were called out and mocked and ridiculed if they even referenced heavily or 'swiped' a pose. at some point, tracers like deodoto, land, etc were given more work and readers kept buying their books even with how much they were mocked and derided and shunned by contemporaries. now you have nothing but outsourced 3rd world tracers and 3d model/blender users from stuff like glass house or phillipine sweat shops they pay next to nothing for page rates. probably explains why the industry is in ruin.

but buildings, cars, all the people, everything was drawn in old comics. there were people that could draw well, but ask them to draw a floating space station with interdimensional time aliens and then next page a portal to the savage land jungle antarctic with dinosaurs, etc and they couldnt keep up/lacked imagination. many portfolios were rejected because it was just some spiderman fights and they couldnt draw people talking or cars or other 'normal' shit from comics.

john byrne has comic xmen elsewhen where he just draws continuation of his xmen run for free. its just pencils from him with his own lettering. marvel wouldnt let him do it, so he just drew it and posted for free on his website. pirate sites have it still. you can see perspective grids and other linework for how even simple panels were made by hand. he didnt trace buildings or cars or anything.

>>7596494
>doing everything from imagination is precisely what would make it the most fun
Yes, *would*. But what about all the grind you have to do to get there? Is that fun? Of course not. It sucks ass. So why bother with shoulds and shouldn'ts when you can just draw using whatever method you find most enjoyable? Maybe the people who are having fun when drawing are the ones who will actually make it in the end. I wish I had never found this board and could still be happy tracing my little drawings. I didn't even knew tracing was something frowned upon back then... God I miss that innocence so much. I want to go back...

>>7596548
No one says you can't trace. just be upfront about it. It's not the tracing people care about, it's the deception.

If you're trying to produce something that competes with Rembrandt's and Picasso's, I'd argue it'd be pretty disingenuous to trace. But if I'm working to push a product out under a limited time frame with limited resources, and my goal is to present a cohesive story and tracing/photobashing will help get me there I don't see why not. No one's putting Inio's photobashed backgrounds in a fine arts gallery and he's not trying to argue that it deserves to be in one.

>>7593974 (OP)
Both are bad.

>>7595660
I'm really afraid to mention this as I fear it's going to unleash an unspeakable evil upon this world, but I do want to point out it's technically possible to upload your art as a custom texture to make 3D backgrounds that look like your drawn art. This is especially useful if you're making a comic with recurring settings.

>>7597124
Upload where? Do you mean making a 3D scene and then overlaying some assets you've drawn on top like say a pole or a brick wall?

>>7597124
explain

>>7597132
>>7597141
Yeah, basically. I'm no expert, but I've seen people basically re-texture maps y uploading a different texture for Billboards, bricks, tree trunks, etc. Right off the top of my head I'm thinking of the video of the guy who booted Simpson's Hit N' Run into Unreal Engine and made it an open map game. There were a few textures that didn't translate properly so he downloaded some different texture packages and swapped out various miscellaneous ones.

By that logic, you would just have to make a custom texture package, and since all textures are just digital art anyways, you would just supplement your drawn images. I believe the artist of El Goonish Shive may have done something similar with the backgrounds for some of his re-occurring settings such as Ted's Basement.

It's not something I would do myself and haven't ever done before, and there may be a variety of little adjustments needed along the way, but I'm sure just going off that you can figure out a way to test this out and see what happens.

>>7597123
Nothing wrong with photobashing
It traces roots way back when people wanted art in another form

>>7597167
>all that work for nothing
Who cares. Just draw over the 3d of you want to cut corners

>>7594145
>characters themselves are not seen as appropriate to trace (as far as I know).
There's plenty american comic artists known for tracing/copying either easily googleable photos, or entire panels from previous artists. Or shit like picrel which got called out immediately even by normies.

>>7594448
Why did cartoons like this dried up after 2005 anyway?

>>7596527
>comparing western slop to superior Asian media
I was comparing western slop (that's animated by Asians) to Japanese slop, and how to make low-budget animation look and feel at least a little bit more creative and interesting.

>>7596533
>Good thing Japanese art does not cater to swines like you. Absolute imbecile.
You're silly man, I was literally only talking about 3D and photograph backgrounds vs. hand-drawn backgrounds. Your brain is probably rotted from politics and culture wars.

>>7597278
Because the western canon heavily prioritizes smooth timing and fluid motion as sacred compared to all other elements of animation. So when budgets for shows themselves went down, producers hired people who threw eveything else under the bus first.

Until the past like 10 years, people were being taught by a lot of old fuck animation professors who DESPISED anime for 2 big reasons.
>variable timing and use of budget-saving tricks is what cheap hanna-barbera cartoons did
>bad taste for japan because of both outsourcing for animation specifically and them spanking the entire west economically in the 60s-80s

Want more understanding? A lot of boomers thought that when spiderverse and puss in boots did the low-framerate thing it was them being cheap and not a stylistic thing. The "moving painting" view of animation that a lot of japanese animators have was nonexistent.

On top of this - and this is something that was specifically mentioned on tokyo name tank/manga senpai - americans constantly yap while japanese media and drama utilizes pauses for effect much more commonly. Even cheap western animators for the longest time would balk at the idea of characters talking with big pauses and barely any movement for more than a split second, like you frequently see anime do when you're looking at the back of someone's head in a conversation. This was all over back in the day, 90s spiderman is a big example, but so are old anime dubs where the director felt uneasy with large pauses and added extra yapping to fill space.

>>7597365
>americans constantly yap while japanese media and drama utilizes pauses for effect much more commonly.
>old anime dubs where the director felt uneasy with large pauses and added extra yapping to fill space.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_WVXyEs7Mc

>>7593974 (OP)
Both are accepted in manga. Only westerners think it's cheating. Goes for artists and non artists.

>>7596573
>be upfront about using xyz tools!
Why should anyone be? Who is this going to satisfy? The ones who are going to complain about it aren't going to be satisfied and the ones who are already enjoying your work doesn't care, or the ones who think they should feel bad for enjoying someone's work that uses xyz tools now have their experience ruined.

This is like asking a magician to be upfront about their tricks, when literally doing so will take the fun out of the spectacle.

>>7598104
>Who is this going to satisfy?
People who want to be able to do something similar. The downside is you'll enable cheap imitations, but the upside is you're advancing the medium.

>>7597197
In what way could you possibly compare weaving a tapestry with a rough sketch as a guideline to photobashing?

>>7597214
I forgot I was talking to people who wanted to cut corners.
>>7597273
ANYTHING to avoid basic construction.

>>7594448
Agree 100% on all points. I read a webcomic regularly that is very skillful at using no backgrounds for various panels and you honestly don't even notice.

>>7597365
True, you never see sit like an extreme closeup of a leaf with dew dripping off of it or that type of shit which anime does regularly.

>>7593974 (OP)
people generally dont give a shit about environment and backgrounds. as long as you dont trace the characters themselves you can go crazy.

>>7598987
>as long as you dont trace the characters themselves you can go crazy.
you can trace 3d models of the characters and nobody will give a shit either

>>7593974 (OP)
Does anyone have a tutorial on how to do this?

>>7605912
There's a million. Just google it.