Spain only became an actual country in 1715? Before that it was a collection of different kingdoms with the same monarch.

Aragonese citizens couldn't even trade with the Castilian colonies in the New World for example.

>>211971954 (OP)
crazy that they had city state citizenship, and to get naturalized in venice or milan it took like 20 years.
you also until very recently couldn't really just move to a different village or city in the soviet union and china.
blocks like mercosul, eu, eeu are honestly the greatest thing ever. that you can just move to a neighbouring country and just live there. there needs to be more of that

>>211971954 (OP)
Spain started to exist by 1469, ie, dynastic union between Fernando and Isabel. Having to different legal systems does not mean anything given both were ruled by a same monarch. And even inside Aragon and Castile, different cities and provinces had different fueros, usatges and some other forms of local rights different from the general laws pushed by the monarchs.

>>211974511
España es la prision de catalunia

>>211974511
Denmark and Norway were in a union for 500 years too, you know.

>>211971954 (OP)
That explains why there is so much animosity and regional nationalism...until the national team plays o algo

>>211971954 (OP)
A further reminder that Portugal was the original

yes it is known, the colonies could only trade with the madrid trading house and not with each other

>>211974511
You don't know the difference between crown union and country? Did you know the king of England is the monarch of Australia, Canada, NZ and a bunch of countries? Did you know the president of France is also the coprince of Andorra?

>>211974511
And actually, given the dynastic union was more institutional, many chroniclers and historians agree since Middle-Ages as Jiménez de Rada, that Spain exist since the year 587, during the III and IV councils of Toledo.

Saint Isidore of Sevilla made the earliest mentions of Spain as a political subject, specifically in the Laus Hispaniae and the Acta Synodalia oof these councils.

And if we go before, historians as Paulus Orosius and poets from the court of Theodosius, who was from Segovia, already mentioned Spain as some short of cultural-geographical entity.

I AM FORCED TO LEARN SPANISH BECAUSE OF THEIR STUPID EMPIRE!

>>211974862
>Spain actually dates to the Punic wars, trust me bro

>>211974663
Imagine how kino it would be if instead of ''Spain'' we had their home countries playing as different teams in football competitions just like England and Scotland. I think this only isn't the case due to Franco's legacy

>>211974916
akshually the name of the language is Castilian. It was Castile's empire in the Americas and Asia

>>211974936
Germany had not an equivalent to the Laus Hispaniae and the Acta Synidalia of Toledo straight into modernity. Trought Middle-Ages you were just East France.

Yes, our nation is much more older than yours.

>>211974511
wasn't spain ruled by habsburg then french monarchs for most of its history?
doesn't really make it french or austrian

>>211974862
Spain obviously isn't the same entity as the Visigothic Kingdom bro, stop the larp. This is like saying Ukraine is just the Cossack Hetmanate after a little break not existing, or Peru is actually the Inca Empire rebranded

>>211974511
It's the opposite. Law makes a country politically, having the same cuck in chief is irrelevant. There have been many strange "personal unions" through history.

>>211975089
You are confusing the institutionalized Visigothic monarchy — upon which the Castilians, Aragonese, Portuguese, and even some Andalusi taifas based their monarchies — with the absolutist Frankish monarchy that prevailed in Germany, France, England (after William the Conqueror), etc.

Unlike the Frankish countries, the Spanish monarchy was governed by the principles of Isidorian thought. A king does not rule by founding the nation, as did the Frankish and Norman despots. The Gothic kings governed under the tacit approval of the Hispanic people and the Church, which anointed them (but did not crown them) and empowered them for the office. Rex servus Dei — the king is the servant of God.

In short, whereas for the Franks and their successors the monarchy (identified with the kingdom) came first, for the Visigoths it was the kingdom that took precedence, distinct from the monarchy. That is, the king was a kind of employee of the kingdom, tasked with ensuring the well-being of his subjects. As Saint Isidore made clear in his De Officiis Regum: "Rex eris si recte facias, si non facias, non eris" ("You will be king if you do what is right; if you do not, you will not be [king]").

In Spain the Frankish despotic type of goverment did not arrived until Bourbons usurped the throne to Habsbourgs.

Charles I, V for germans, as the grandson of the Catholic Monarchs and the holder of their main base of military, political and economic support for his political ambitions (for Europe) in Spain, sought to legitimize himself in front of Castilian and Aragonese nobility and subjects, not as a German emperor, but as a Visigothic king, following the political background of Castile and Aragon.

>>211971954 (OP)
Germany and italy weren't unified until the late 19th century, that kind of explains why they almost didn't partiticipate in colonialism

>>211975081
we wuz armenius

>>211975436
Spain is the same. Pelayo was from the family of the king Rodrigo. And he claimed the rights of the monarchy, which were approved by the Spanish Church, as was customary among the Visigoths. And considering that the Kingdom of Asturias mutated into what became the Castilian-Leonese monarchy, which forms the core of what is today Spain.
Furthermore, the laws of Aragon and Castile, from then until the arrival of the Bourbons, were based on the Liber Iudicorum of King Recescvinto, both the Castilian fueros and the Aragonese ustages.

>>211975436
Europeans hate being reminded that their countries are actually young. Imagine your WESTERN EUROPEAN country (not central, not eastern) being formed just 74 years before the federal government of the USA. This is almost Belgium tier.

>>211975750
Spain wasn't unified either. Why couldn't Prussia or Venice be like Castille?

>>211975888
O senaar, we are an authentic millinnia-old high culture.

>>211975848
>Modern research is leaning towards the view that Pelagius was of Hispano-Roman origins.[5][6][7][8]
>Pelagius was born around 685, although the exact details of his early life remain largely unknown. Traditionally, Pelagius was depicted as of Visigothic origin.[3] Recent scholarship increasingly supports that Pelagius was a nobleman of Hispano-Roman descent, linked to the local Asturian elite.[4][5][6][7] Historical texts emphasize Pelayo's connection to the local Asturian society.

>>211976133
The primary sources confirm the Gothic origins. What you mention are theories, generally from Spanish traditionalism. But the primary sources, being what they are, confirm their Gothic origin among the Spatharians of King Rodrigo.

The quintessential sources: The Chronicle Albendiense, the Chronicle Rotiense, the Chronicle of Alfonso III, the Chronicle Sebastianense.

>>211976318
Even if he had Gothic origins that just confirms a line of political inheritance, like France is "descended" from the Frankish Empire but no one sane will say that the Frankish Empire was literally France. You aren't just saying that Spain has its roots on the Visigothic Kingdom (which I agree), you're saying the Visigothic Kingdom was literally Spain

San (Dan) Marino

>>211976802
Eastern European bro.

>>211976722
>no one sane will say that the Frankish Empire was literally France
This relationship is similar to Asturian Kingdom -> Spain.
France has sibling countries that are also descended of the Franks like Germany. Spain has Portugal and Andorra.
Neither France or Spain hold a monopoly on the heritage of their predecessor states

>another latinx seething about europeans/iberians

>>211976835
Southern European bro.

>>211976722
The problem of France is that it was just "France" nominally. The only heir of Charlemagne empire was the so called Holy Roman Empire given it was blessed by the pope, as the empire of Charlemagne. Even the French king Francis I seeked to be crowned emperor, but failed.

And given French killed their monarchy, in a kingdom that unlike the Visigothic based most of its legality around the bloodline of their monarchy, the contemporary France lacks of any legitimacy to be an heir of Frankish empire.

The Holy Roman Empire by its part stopped to exist around 2 centuries ago.

The only heirs of Frankish today are the Bourbons here due their Capetian bloodline. If a pope bless them as emperors, they would be technically the legit heirs of Frankish emperors.

>you're saying the Visigothic Kingdom was literally Spain
Because it is. Spain is a monarchy and you can thrace our monarchs from Felipe VI to Pelayo, Leovigildo and Alaric.

>>211976863
Mind your business, Chikaner

>>211977006
you're not med
you're not roman
you're not latin
you're not european
you're not a conquisator
you're not a crusader
you're not a tradcath (those are just protestants in denial)
you're not italian or spanish

>>211977041
you're not white
you're not a woman
you're not going to be happy after the surgeries and the bleaching

>>211976982
Also, beefore somebody mentions Napoleon's coronation, two things to say

1. France still was a property of the Bourbons at the time, that's why there was a war on the rebels. As I said, the Frankish monarchy was in all terms centered around royal despotism and le bloodline.
2. Even considering Napoleon as a legit French king, he was not crowned by the pope, he stole the crown from the peope and crowned himself. He evem lacked of the ecclesiastical justification that Charlemagne and German emperors had.

>>211976982
>>211977271
Why are so focused on royal lineages and who is recognized by the pope as what instead of looking at the actual political institutions? The mere existence of republics destroys your monarchist-based criterium of understanding countries, how do you explain their statehood?

>>211977852
tradcath retards will be tradcath retards

>>211977852
Because among French there was a strong fixation on the royal family and the bloodline. Also, you started to talk compare France and Carolingian empire when contemporary France lacks of any legitimation as republic, and even more as heir of Carolingian empire.

Also, the legality of regimes does not arise from nothing. Technically and based on Roman Law, few republics today possess any legal basis other than the right of the strongest, in contemporary case, the power of the commoners, to justify their political constitutions. My country, with its virtues and defects, is a monarchy legitimized by 1,500 years of political history and Roman law.

And I like to emphasize the differences of Spanish royalty and other European royalty more adjacent to Frankish monarchs. Many anons mistakenly confuse the Spanish monarchy with that of countries of Frankish heritage. In the history of Spain, the ideological and legal foundations of our monarchy as an institution were not based until the arrival of our current monarchy, on works of medieval German, English, or Frankish authors, nor on a mythological legitimation like that of Merovingians, nor on barbarian customary law. But rather on Roman law that ruled the Visigothic kingdom, the Spanish Church, and Isidorian thought.

>>211978367
>barbarian customary law
you're not roman diego

the inferiority complex of the spanish to the rest of western europe is funny, it's a lot like the inferiority complex of latinx towards america and europe.

>>211978485
The Liber Iudicorum of Recesvinto was the only work based on Roman law wrote in West Europe (and the main reference on the matter) until introduction of Justinian Code. The Visigoths saved here the Roman law because they were the most Romanized of Barbarian tribes.

>>211974959
what a retarded thing to say

>>211978662
Al Andalus stripped you of any right to larp as roman, unlike Germans who were not conquered.

>>211978533
It's only a leftist thing doe

>>211978717
no? it's right wing tradcath/francoists/nationalists on 4chan

>>211978704
>Al Andalus stripped you of any right to larp as roman
That's not how it works :)

>>211978704
Andalusian caliphs , just as the Ottomans in the East, seeked to be recognized by Spanish Church and their Hispanoroman subjects as heirs of the Visigothic monarchy, and failed in the process. Because neither, the Mozarabic population, neither the Spanish Church, recognized them, but Pelayo of Asturias, as legit heir of Rodrigo.

>>211975938
no atlantic ports

>>211979079
Wait.

>>211979097
what?

>>211979148
Idk.

>>211975938
They kinda did. Our first colonies were privately owned by Prussian noblemen

>>211977852
>corona muralis
kino

Bad vibe.

>>211979079
The Baltic and Mediterranean seas are physically connected to the Atlantic ocean. If Sweden did it they could've done too

>>211979300
>New Sweden, only Swedish colony in America, established by the New Sweden Company in March 1638 and captured by the Dutch in 1655.

>>211979300
the margravate of brandenburg was landlocked and royal prussia was still a property of poland during the age of exploration

>>211979418
You're right. Prussia wasn't a power yet.
The Italian independent states have little excuses though

>>211971954 (OP)
>>211974511
>>211974862
Spain exist since its foundation by Dominator Hercules Fundator, son of Jupiter, creator of the universe.

It became the 'Second Rome' under Sertorius.

>>211974916
You speak English because you were a bong colony

Bump

Important thread

>>211974663
Is there a single western Euro country that doesn't have regional separatists?

>>211986468
Portugal?