Thread 212035001

Russia is the only European country that historically has zero castles. All other European countries have at least one

>>212035001 (OP)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_castles_in_Russia

>>212035001 (OP)
Kremlins are Russian castles, dumb frogposter. And there were plenty of modern star forts too.

>>212035037
I'm talking about the RUSSIAN castles. Most of the things on the list are fortresses (kremlins), not castles. The only REAL castle in Russia is in Vyborg, but it was built and founded by Swedes
>>212035065
Kremlins are fortresses, not castles

>>212035037
to be fair, the article lists tons of things as "castle" that dont provide any defences

>>212035092
>they’re felines, not cats

>>212035092
Then how were Russian cities defended?

>>212035092
>saaaaar they're zainichi kremls not castles

they're literally castles nigger, just with different style of walls.

>>212035001 (OP)
Most of Russia isn’t in Europe.

>>212035179
It’s also the largest country in Europe (just the European part) and 80% of the population lives in the European part.

>>212035127
Castle is a monarch's residense and usually they're a single thing. Kremlins are basically just walls
>>212035139
Russian cities were defended with kremlins, but these things are just huge fortification walls. Monasterys historically are made to protect citizens too, but you can't say that monastery is a castle
>>212035179
Russia is a European country that started on the shore of the Baltic sea and expanded into East in the Imperial era

>>212035203
>castle is a monarch’s residence
It isn’t exclusive to a monarch. It’s any nobleman. And kremlins hosted the dukes of Rus if you aren’t aware.

Castles may not be too effective when the enemy is made up of nomadic archers in horseback who are acquainted with gunpowder.

>>212035237
Yeah I know. But again: castles are usually a single building, while kremlins have a whole complex of buildings inside of them
>>212035240
The problem is that we skipped the feodal period in Russia (the main reason why castles exist) and moved straigt to a centralized country

>>212035203
>Russia is a European country that started on the shore of the Baltic sea
You won't like to hear it, but most of pre-Mongol "Russia" played out in todays' Ukraine, not near Novgorod.

>>212035276
>castles are usually a single building

>>212035344
Ukraine was literally the border of Rus. Kiev was basically on the border. The geographic center of it was in Belarus.

>>212035276
>castles are usually a single building
No, 'tard, in fact, most weren't.

russia is not a European country

>>212035386
Kiev was still the capital for most of its existence.

>>212035001 (OP)
how the fuck do you fight enemy on a steppe without a castle?

>>212035434
Yeah, so? And Novgorod was the original capital. It moved to Kiev since the Dniepr provided trade opportunities with the Byzantines. And the Rus had the HRE-like structure. The Grand Duke of Kiev was the first among equals essentially.

Castle is a French word, so only French can legally have castles

>>212035507
Castle is a derivative of castrum, a Latin word.

>>212035344
I know. But I just mean that we're Slavic, speak an Indo-European language and our state as a whole began somewhere on the shore of the Baltics
>>212035361
Usually. You still can see that all building are kinda interconnected and all of them are made in one style. Building in kremlins are all different usually
>>212035386
We're pretty close to each other as nations but Russian historical centres are Vladimir, Moscow and Novgorod. Even tho Kiev was an important city
>>212035396
Google european castle. Almost all of them are a single building
>>212035434
It was the metropole of course, but Rus' lands were made of different small kingdoms, Kiev was just the most important among them
>>212035471
Kremlins. Still they're not castles
>>212035507
Isn't it Latin tho? You have chateau

>>212035533
>Vladimir, Moscow
Both only came into prominence at the time of Mongol invasion. The duke of Vladimir basically cucked his Kievan cousin and took the Grand Duke title for himself. Then the same happened with Moscow eventually. Novgorod is weird since it was a semi-independent republic for most of its history.

>>212035092
>>212035203
so you mean palaces?

>>212035412
Russia is more European than Poland.

>>212035595
>Both only came into prominence at the time of Mongol invasion
Yeah but these were the times when you can highlight the beginning of the Russian state that separated from Rus'
>>212035634
Yes and no, these things are kinda interconnected, but not every castle is a palace and vice versa

>>212035697
>the beginning of Russian state separated from Russia
They called the land pѹcьcкaѧ зємлѧ. The whole “Kievan Rus” vs “Novgorodian Rus” vs “Russia” vs “peepeepoopoo” is retroactive nonsense historians came up with. It’s on the same level as Byzantine Empire, even though it’s legally just the Roman Empire.

>>212035647
can you point europe on the map sweetie?

>>212035782
Dude I know, I don't deny the fact that we were one single nation at the start with Ukrainians and Belorussians. We spoke almost the same language with dialectic differences at some regions, but even so we all weren't a single country. Everyone lived in their own citystates. And Russia emerged from Moscow, Novgorod and Vladimir that were citistates. Idk, it's like if there were two Greek countries now: the one that emerged from Athens and the one that emerged from Sparta. No one would've denied that they share the same history and roots, but it'd be pretty obvious that one emerged from Athens and the other one emerged from Sparta

>>212035893
>And Russia emerged from Moscow, Novgorod and Vladimir
Novgorod is an outlier here. Ivan Grozny literally sacked that city out of pure spite after conquering it.
>Idk, it's like if there were two Greek countries now: the one that emerged from Athens and the one that emerged from Sparta
except Belarus and Ukraine just got conquered by the Lithuanians. By your logic, the Spanish are a bunch of completely different peoples with zero shared identity because the Arabs conquered everything but the extreme North of Iberia.

You're confused because Muscovite Russia tries to claim direct heritage from Kievan Rus, even though it's a different entity.

>>212036096
>it’s a different entity
It’s about as different as Bismarck’s Germany is from the HRE. Same shit, different name.

>>212035989
>Novgorod is an outlier here
Novgorod is a crucial city that played a great role in the culture and history of Russia. Yeah Ivan IV just conquered it at some point, but still there was Aleksander Nevsky that was a Novgorodian prince and exactly has line gave birth to Moscow's Rurikids.
>except Belarus and Ukraine just got conquered by the Lithuanians
Still they developed a unique culture by resisting and opposing the Polish-Lithuanian identity (with varying success)
>By your logic, the Spanish are a bunch of completely different peoples
Tbh I don't know that much about Spanish history except for the reconquista and the period of colonization, so I can't really say anything about them

Fun fact is that you can easily determine the former border of PLC/Russia in modern Belarus/Ukraine by presence of castles. On the historical Russian side there are no castles.

>>212036146
>Nevsky
That’s still Rus times. Again, why include Novgorod but not Kiev? Did you know that there was a larger dialectic difference between Novgorod and Vladimir than Vladimir and Kiev at the time?

If you’re talking about Russian identity as opposed to Ukrainian/Belarusian identity, then we’re firmly into post-Mongol conquest era. And by that point Novgorod was Moscow’s rival and Muscovy inherited zero institutions from Novgorod. There was no veche in the tsardom, period.

>>212036233
>That’s still Rus times
That's Rus times but exactly Nevsky's heritage has leaded to the Russian identity literally and quite straightforward. Both Moscow and Novgorod were in one region of Rus and rivalered the same as Moscow and Vladimir once rivalired. All post-Rus' countries have that Kievan culture inside of them, but Russian core culture is more about Novgorod/Vladimir/Moscow, Kiev at some point had lost its influence
>Did you know that there was a larger dialectic difference between Novgorod and Vladimir than Vladimir and Kiev at the time?
I heard about it. Afaik Novgorodians are basically western Slavs, they had lots of contacs with Finno-Ugric people and basically they were more integrated with Europe (Hanseatic league)
>inherited zero institutions from Novgorod
Yeah but again Moscow emerged from Novgorodian culture and I guess had more influence from Novgorod than Kiev
>There was no veche in the tsardom
It's more about the ideology of Moscow tsardom and the idea of a centralized state, Novgorod in that sense was in opposition

Btw, the Russian word for the castle is a loanword from Polish

>>212036547
Which was borrowed from a Chezh word that is a calque from a German word

Do Nordics have castles? Finland/Iceland especially

>>212036615
>Finland
Viborg castle
>Iceland
to defend against cod?

>>212035001 (OP)
Be slav
Live on steppe
Be full of wood
No mountain and any natural choke point
Build wood

>>212036600
Ok, but still Russian borrowed it from Polish which means the idea of the castle was transferred to Russia from Poland. And again, there are no castles in Russia, they were seen as something foreign. All the castles in Belarus and Ukraine are Polish-built too

>>212036233
>Ukrainian/Belarusian identity
Made up in the 19th century.

And I'm not even a vatnik who thinks Russia has a right to conquer them. But there was no Ukraine / Belarus separate from Rus(sia) for most of its history.

>>212036674
>But there was no Ukraine / Belarus separate from Rus(sia) for most of its history.
It was literally separate from Muscovy for 500 years. Mongol conquest to partitions of Poland. That's half of the region's history.

>>212036661
>Russian borrowed it from Polish which means the idea of the castle
Maybe. Again as I mention earlier, castles are usually a thing in the feodal period. Because of the Mongol conquest we skipped it entirely and because of it we had no castles at all. The country to survive had to get centralized, and in a centralized country there are usually no castles in the classic European sense of the word

>>212036547
zamok?

Did you know Kansas has C A S T L E S?

>>212036734
>Because of the Mongol conquest we skipped it entirely
Anon, you had feudalism all the way from 862 to 1861. What are you smoking?

>>212036734
Possibly, though we had a bunch of castles built as late as in 17th century, but in fact they served more like palaces for the aristocracy where the defensive purpose was of lesser relevance.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krzy%C5%BCtop%C3%B3r

>>212036761
Yes

>>212036717
"Ukraine" existed as subdivision of PLC or Muscovite Russia, but never as its own thing until 1991. The populace never called themselves Ukrainian.

>>212036888
Sure, but to deny that they never developed an identity separate from Russia in 500 years they were part of the PLC is insane. Their language is literally like 40% Polish loanwords.

>>212036783
We had an early feodal period, that's true, but it didn't evolve in the things that define that period, it was a little different than in Europe. Feodalism is about decentralisation (in the European sense) that we were lack of historically
>>212036827
Yeah I'm talking about these things exactly. About noblemen residensies with fortification functions

>>212036943
>Feodalism is about decentralisation
That's literally Soviet bullshit that's only taught in the ex-USSR. Feudalism is about l'Ancien Regime and the Estates system of social stratification. You had your own estates: the laity, the boyars, the kupechestvo, the peasantry. The peasants had to work the lord's land, the kupechestvo had guilds, etc.

>>212036943
Btw, don't you have a bunch of Teutonic castles in Kaliningrad?

>>212035139
russia didnt exist when castles were a thing.

Boom.

Brit

>>212037033
How did this jeet tier caste BS keeping 90% of the populace in inescapable poverty survive for 1000 years?

>>212037245
Because it just worked until the degenerate enlightenment kings started to wreck it with absolutism and bullshit like ennobling the bourgeoisie for money? Read this.

>>212037033
>That's literally Soviet bullshit that's only taught in the ex-USSR
Maybe! Not sure. But even English wiki says that it feodalism is the result of decentralisation
>>212037034
Wiki says that we do, but most of them look ruined and the region doesn't spend money for their reconstruction for some reason
>>212037082
There's basically no difference in Rus/Moscow Tsardom/Russian Empire/Russia. It was inhabitated by the same people and they didn't appear out of nothing just right after the moment when the last castle was built

>>212037326
>But even English wiki says that it feodalism is the result of decentralisation
Decentralization of what exactly? The earliest signs of feudalism were already present in the Dominate era Rome.

>>212037343
>Decentralization of what exactly?
Of an empire. Anyway, whole Europe had classic feodals, knights and guys like that. Feodals had castles and peasants. Russia had princes too, but they didn't build castles for themselves, only fortresses for the whole cities

>>212037415
>Of an empire
What empire? The Rus was never an empire and it never succeeded an empire. And what empire was medieval England part of? Oh, and for the love of God, it's "feudal" instead of "feodal" and "feodal" is not a word in English.

>>212037472
Don't be mad at him, in Russian it's written "feodalism" and "feodal [lord]"

>>212037528
vpn off, hivan

>>212037472
>What empire?
Roman. But I may be wrong, I'm not that good in the history of the early medievil Europe. But as I understand the whole Europe was influenced by it very much, and England had its influence too. Russia didn't, we had more influence from Greeks (Byzantine Empire) which is also Roman but a bit different. And even so in the end we had our own completely unique to Europe historical way
>Oh, and for the love of God, it's "feudal" instead of "feodal"
Oh yea, sorry, in Russian it's just «feodal» and it's borrowed from Latin «feōdum»

>>212035092
A castle is literally just a fortress though.

>>212037642
>Roman
Sweden was never part of the Roman empire and they had feudalism too.

>>212037305
Booba

>>212037659
It is but a unique kind of a fortress that every European country has except for Russia
>>212037673
I guess it's the influence from the post-Roman Empire culture, by that I mean the united cultural space of Catholic Europe of which Russia wasn't a part. Still I may be wrong tho

>>212037642
Oaths of vassalage are more like a germanic barbarian thing. It's less centralised than the Roman Empire, but they didn't decentralise Rome, they just sacked it.