>wealth inequality bad
Do people parrot this shit in your country? It sure is bad that a heroin junkie doesn’t earn as much as a neurosurgeon…

>neurosurgeon as an example of affluence
rofl

>>212530737
>macaco immediately thinks of le 1%
my point exactly

>>212530753
>dropping the M-bomb
oh no you didn't

>>212530680 (OP)
Wealth inequality is kind of bad income inequality is kind of good

>>212530863
And these don’t correlate because… we need to tax the shit out of everyone o algo?

>>212530680 (OP)
yes but less than before.

>>212530890
They are related

>>212530932
But one le bad and other le good? Daddy Lenin is proud of your wish for wealth redistribution.

>>212530680 (OP)
Fuck off, we're union men or no men at all
German workers deserve german pay

>>212530961
Kind of

>I fucking love being poor even though I work full time

>>212530973
And what did you do to deserve all that? Did you found and run a company? I’m sure that email typing job is just as risky and stressful.

>>212530680 (OP)
Wealth inequality is fine as long as their is a reasonable floor you can't go under. Everyone should have food, water, healthcare, and housing. Even drug addict bums.

>>212531018
Nobody loves being poor. That’s why people strive to accrue wealth. The state discouraging that in the form of gibs and high taxes means goycattle are conditioned into remaining poor.

>>212530680 (OP)
ok, but should a twitch streamer make 100x as much as a neurosurgeon?

>>212531028
>NOOOO (((you))) don't understand, inheritance is very stressfull!
Just yesterday a new survey found out that 75% of all millinairs in europe have inheriteded there wealth
You're a child or a paid actor

>>212531045
What did they do to deserve it? Are they not capable of self-sufficiency? Why are you treating them like subhumans who can’t provide for themselves?

>>212531067
>NOOO YOU CANNOT PROVIDE FOR YOUR FAMILY YOU MUST GIVE ALL YOUR WEALTH TO ME WHEN YOU DIE

>>212531112
So a child, okay

>>212531064
the market decides

>>212531122
amazing argument
jealousy is a sin, you know

>>212530680 (OP)
It's wild how many adults are running around the developed world with degrees from supposedly reputable schools think that the government trying to equalize outcomes across a country will not have negative consequences and inevitably backfire, my favorite in the US is when lefty politicians promise to raise taxes on people "only" making over $500K per year
Im always like holy shit
Who the fuck do these people think creates jobs?
Do they think aliens land on Earth, start businesses and then fuck off?

>>212530680 (OP)
That's income. Wealth inequality is like when a baby with the last name of soros is allowed to be transferred billions on birth while a neurosurgeon will have to work several hundred thousand days just to get .1% of that.
Yes that is very bad.
Or a junkie withoout whose rich relative dies and he gets 100 million and lives off milloons in interest while we have teachers living in cars. Thats bad.

Civilizations are better when everyone is closer in general to the top of the global pile. We used to have kings and slaves and indentured servants.
More or less the social floor is too low and the ceiling is too high. Either the ultra rich pill up the average or the average will kill the ultra rich to survive.
It's just physics in the end. A bullet blows apart a skull of a rich man and poor man the same. Either the average goes up or the hyper rich die. Same cycle. Same patterns. Nothing really changes besides the players but the game is still set the same way.

>>212531084
>Why are you treating them like subhumans who can’t provide for themselves?
Because they are.

>>212531170
>>212531112

>>212531190
Yes.

>>212531182
Ow, wow, an honest leftoid. I respect that.

>>212531168
>be jealous of... getting nothing for defending billinaoirs online
Okay

>>212531135
then why can't i buy heroine, cocaine, and humans? there is a demand for speedball slave orgies.

>>212531221
I think he's trying to troll but he's really stupid and angry.

>>212531221
Why are you focusing on billionaires specifically? There’s something about people like you who cannot just apply principles universally. Society isn’t made up of equal people to you, it’s always
>muh poor poors look at them so cute
>muh middle class look at them so benevolent
>muh billionaires look at them so evil
It’s extremely rich hearing about equality from people who inherently segregate people.

>>212531112
>I deserve to own billions because my daddy also owned billions
Kys cuck

>>212531247
Yeah I get that but the best way to deal with unironic boot lickers is to be honest, they can't handle that and cope & seeth

>>212531275
Yes, it’s a natural human instinct to care for your children. And billionaires are humans just like heroin junkies. It’s basic human decency to treat everyone on equal grounds.

>>212531302
>Yes, it’s a natural human instinct

>>212531302
You can let people care for their children without letting them amass wealth so great an average pleb would have to work hundreds of lifetimes to earn the equivalent

>>212531359
And why shouldn't they be able to amass wealth? What's wrong with amassing wealth aside from jealous people seething?

>>212531169
the billionaires will have to pay up, and they will be happy

>>212530680 (OP)
I think that people who say that mostly complain about some nigga that hails from aristocracy or some 19th century bourgeoise that got rich from overworking orphans, who never payed taxes in the last 5 generations and his only contribution to society was flooding it with immigrants and investing into stocks and not upper middle class

>>212531169
Hospital and insurance administration make more than surgeons.

>>212531508
Upper middle class tend to be mercurial or REALLY desperate for approval. Also love to pretend that their wealth is worth a shit versus actual rich people/families.

>>212530680 (OP)
> rusgroid flees his oligarchic shithole brothel state for chinx and churkas
> lands in one of the highest HDI countries with the strongest manufacturing sectors in the west
> enjoys the fruits of labor that German workers fought to preserve
> and to spite it all, goes straight to uttering his thinly veiled oligarch-caste apologia.
> because he cannot live without seeing women prostituting themselves on the streets en masse like in MASKVA!!!
truly a cousin nation to jeets
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJOOG2P4Za0

>>212531284
That's what I do. I don't even waste effort.
>>212531388
There isn't infinite wealth.

>>212530680 (OP)
>wealth inequality
>junkie doesn’t earn as much as a neurosurgeon
learn to read retard
wealth =/= income

>>212531776
>There isn't infinite wealth.
precisely. So what's wrong exactly?

>>212530680 (OP)
>>212530890
if the junkie can actually perform better than a pampered snob with rich parents at certain job he should be payed more for that particular job than the rich guy

>>212531641
<80iq "people" are hardwired to simp for billionaires

>>212532412
Yes, I agree.

>>212532500
It's a thing you see everywhere regardless of IQ.

>>212531084
are you saying rich people deserve it better? if they do they can call their own gold plated ambulances, air conditioned SAR helicopters, enjoy caviar and champagne on the ride to their private hospital and get their accute heart attacks theated. but they dont..

>>212532581
No, I’m saying nobody deserves anything and you have to be mentally ill to obsess over others possessions.

>>212532648
Yeah it's very mentally ill to not want to starve to death in the street. Just have a rich dad idiot.

>>212531169
>make jobs
Usually shitty jobs.
How mich % of a billionaire's salary do they have to hoard (re: not create any jobs) before you realize you are an idiot? 10 billion dollars in the bank is at least >100,000 jobs not created.
I suggest you look up the Gilded Era to see what happens when there's no regulations and no taxes, and how horribly the vast majority of the population lived. It sucked and it's what you are advocating. No shortage of jobs and almost everyone was miserable and in poverty. No middle class either.
But maybe if you keep crying about it, they'll flick you a crumb?

>>212532674
You know what you can do to not starve to death? Work. Do Swedes not know about survival instincts and such? I would say it indeed is a mental illness to just idly lay there waiting for gibs.

>>212532706
What if there is no work? What if you are disabed?

>>212530680 (OP)
Both wealth and income inequality are indeed very bad for society, yes.

>>212532727
>What if there is no work?
Then you failed as a country.
>What if you’re disabled?
Natural selection.

>>212532773
Poorfags killing the rich and stealing their shit is natural selection too.

>>212532788
It sure is. Look at how that worked for the Soviets and the chinks. Killing sparrows helps too.

>>212532648
well, its the common sense of society here that everyone deserves life and if they are in state of physical or mental disease or injury its the comunitys responsibiliy to respond to it and make shure they stay alive.
try walking up to a grassing cow and start beating it with a log, see what the other cows will do...
try being friends with said cows or any other pets, then fake a keel over, see what they do...
you are trying to make that instinctive herd and community behaviour into something capitalistic or even worse selective to only the people you find worthy.

>>212532802
Worked very good for Soviets, the USSR was the highest quality of living the Russian people ever reached. After 1984 their purchasing power relative to Americans started to decline, the last time Russians were this poor compared to Americans was 1920~.

>>212532802
Seems like it would be better for everyone if rich people gave up some of their wealth so no one starves. No one needs to be killed. We can even let the sparrows live this time.

>>212532773
whats your job?

>>212532837
Benefits collector and land lord

>>212532817
>everyone deserves life
Why? This certainly goes against the very nature of life. Life is about striving. The moment you turn that into idly laying around, suddenly people are all bored and depressed and stop reproducing. Really makes you think.
>>212532826
>the USSR was the highest quality of living the Russian people ever reached
So you're telling me Russians today live worse off than they did back in the Soviet times? You are unironically retarded.
>>212532828
It would also be better to live in a totalitarian bee hive where everyone is a soulless robot. But humans have these things called individuality and desire for freedom.
>>212532837
remote IT stuff

>>212532903
I tell your double digit IQ brain that Russians live better but their RELATIVE (can you read, nigger) position to Americans is worse than it has been for a long while, the relative quality of living of Russians only decline since Gorbachev was elected. Google Russian life expectancy. The gap between Americans and Russians is larger than it has been for absolute majority of the Soviet era. You see the same kind of complaints in Germany all the time as well, lots of people are unsatisfied with their purchasing power but what happened in reality is not so much a fall of Germany as the fact that German growth has been very lackluster since early 2000s, thus the gap between Germany and the rest of the world severely decreased. Germans are not as rich as they used to be relative to the world, despite not being poorer than they used to be, but none lost more relative to the world than Russians themselves

>>212532903
>But humans have these things called individuality and desire for freedom.
One of the biggest lies ever promoted. Humans are like bugs. Their individuality is shallow and meaningless, slight aesthetic differences with no meaningful impact to function unless they're physically deformed. Their desire for freedom is a desire for the delusion and comfort of freedom with none of the actual chaos that freedom entails. THD.

>>212530680 (OP)
But a neurosurgeon earning 50x less than a footballer is absolutely embarassing, and should not be allowed.
In fact there shouldn't exist professional athletes at all. They should all be forced to work jobs and do sports as their hobbies

>>212532353
Anon I cant make that more basic

>>212532684
You're a braindead fucking idiot, no wonder you're a stupid commie rat.
The Gilded Age had the highest real wage growth and increase in living standards in American history.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age
>"The rapid expansion of industrialization led to real wage growth of 40% from 1860 to 1890 and spread across the increasing labor force. The average annual wage per industrial worker (including men, women, and children) rose from $380 in 1880 ($12,381 in 2024 dollars[2]) to $584 in 1890 ($19,738 in 2024 dollars[2]), a gain of 59%.[3]"
Kill yourself for being a stupid and evil leftist rat, you dumb predditor spiteful mutant.

>>212533011
Again, you go on to compare people for no reason. Why can't you just mind your own business? If someone gives you an ice cream, you wouldn't enjoy it because some billionaire who lives rent free in your head got two scoops.
>>212533044
Idk about you, but I sure am less motivated to achieve anything in life when all of my achievements will get distributed among the proletariat for the sake of The Greater Good o algo. And I sure as hell am less motivated to reproduce knowing that I can't even provide good inheritance for my children without half the money going to ngubu gibs.
>>212533126
Vanity of vanities. All is vanity. Should we punish people for engaging in vanity?

>>212533126
You're just retarded and don't have any argument beyond
>I'm a seething envious loser and spiteful mutant

>>212532767
Wrong. They're both very good for society.
People are not equal.

>>212533149
You have legitimate mental illness. The dead give away is the bizarre question arguments. Are you off your medication honest question.

>>212533196
>dude if you aren't a collectivist bug, then you're mentally ill
ok, zhang

>>212533215
Anon are you off whatever medication you should be on.

>>212531449
You'll have to get a job once your gibs are cut off, bitch nigga parasite

>>212531284
>>212531776
>commie calling anyone a bootlicker
LOL

>>212533232
You too. Go get a real job, you social parasitic, GDP worshipping, right wing faggot.

>>212533149
Obviously you should compare people? Fairness is a innate human desire. Even monkeys display a preference for fairness. What exactly has a billionaires son done to deserve a 1000 times easier life than a poor person?

>>212532674
>>212532727
Just get a job, Abdul. It's not hard.

>>212532826
>relative to Americans
>compared to Americans
Notice the sleazy trick this slimy commie rat just tried to pull.
Americans improving faster doesn't make them worse off, you evil little piece of shit.

The problem is not only inequality. Maintaining people costs resources. People suffer without resources. If we don't make people we can't afford to maintain, and we acknowledge that food grows on trees, we could end the need for the rat race and persistent waste of human time with bullshit jobs that somehow is, in the era of AI as the final technology, still glorified by retards like OP

It's funny how these billionaire "entreprenours" and "job makers" never start a business in the farming or fishing sectors.
No, it's always useless dumb shit. Of ourse, real job gives calluses, it's better to be a parasite making useless apps, or fucking clothing.

>>212531169
The funniest part is trying to tax someone that makes over 500K per year. If taxes are too high in their homecountry they buy a main residence in a country with low taxation. Caiman islands or monaco or a similar place. Also they have access to all kinds of tax tricks. They dont pay taxes like the average person.

>>212533321
Why do you think it's easier? Because he can consoooom more? Has the thought of having to manage that wealth not occurred to you? Having faggots around you who want to fuck you over every breathing moment because it's "fair"?

>>212533373
A double digit IQ nigger like you doesn't deserve access to Internet.

>>212533149
>I sure am less motivated to achieve anything in life
Nobody cares about your motivation, insect. You have never and will never achieve anything, regardless of the situation in your surrounding environment. Great Men of history are not impacted by such things in their drive for glory.

People are not equal.
Not in ability, strength, industriousness, grit, discipline, intelligence, courage, virtue, creativity, or any other personal trait.
You'd be more hard-pressed to find ways in which people are equal than ways in which they aren't.
To expect or desire equal outcomes is fundamentally irrational.
It's literally lunacy.

>>212532903
>remote it stuff.
you dont strife, you contribute nothing. if you died right now nothing of value would be lost. yet your kind love to come hiking in norway thinking health care and rescue is free, and it is. but who does it? if the fog is so thick or the blizzard so hard the choppers cant fly its the volunteer group consisting of a sami and a few others who put their life to rescue you on foot, ski, by atv or snowmobile. im thinking of joining them.
try to tell them that you are more worth due to your job as a remote it worker than a school class of brown kids and even i would join in on the rescue operation just to piss on your dead corpse.
you choose the piss easy way to money and think you are worth something.

>>212533347
We have a 10% unemployment. It is hard.
>>212533373
Life expectancy in Russia fell over 5 years after the soviet union fell. It's still barely higher than it was during the soviet union even with all the medical advances in the last 30 years

>>212533397
Yes, great men are driven by their desire to martyr themselves so some junkie can have his dose payed by the government. I kneel to such greatness.

>>212533394
>commienigger seething because he got caught and called out
Go kill yourself you worthless rat.

>>212533393
>Oh no I have too much money, this is surely as valid of a problem as not having enough money for food
Kill yourself

>>212533377
Ai is not the final technology. True AgI is what you are thinking of and we are hundreds of years off even by the most optimistic guesses. We are close to mimicking human conversations yes. The processing power isn't even close.
All "ai" is now is more or less what's called a pid, it's a giant database of responses, and it randomly assembles them together to fake actual intelligence. We are getting better at *excel* essentially

>>212533453
See? If you were to work for such a guy, you’d steal from him without a back thought because it’s “fair”. And he has to deal with hundreds of faggots like you on a daily basis. Sure isn’t blissful.

>>212533493
Oh no. He might have to only buy 2 luxury yachts instead of 3. It's a tragedy. Poor guy.

>>212533429
Thirdies think technology doesn't regress. They don't see 10-20-50 years down the line

>>212530680 (OP)
"Neurosurgeons" have monopolized wealth by stealing it from the working man. They should be forced to preform medicine for free and receive rations and housing from the state just like everyone else.

>>212533429
Communism lost.
You will never be a revolutionary.
You will never be a commissar.
You will never be a dictator.
You will always be that spiteful mutant no one likes, seething with envy until the day you die.
And no one will miss you.

>>212533299
Leftists are stupid and evil.
Leftism is a mental disease.
It's ok to kill leftists.

>>212533553
Now add China and Russia to your retarded cherrypicked graph

>>212533515
See? You’re just proving my point. Complete lack of empathy. My parents run a business (just a small one, they aren’t millionaires) and the amount of pettiness they have to deal with is insane. Oh, a shipment of liquor for the restaurant vanished from sight and nobody knows anything about it until you tardwrangle people enough and they crack. And it’s not an exception, it’s regular occurence. It’s not stress-free in the slightest.

>>212533432
Martyr themselves doing what exactly in your mind? Some "prestigious" office job? You don't even comprehend what I just told you. You are a zombie who would not be a Great Man of history even if you had your perfect utopia.

>>212533553
Google Russian and Ukrainian life expectancy you mongoloid. Russia alone has bigger population than all the republics in the picture put together

>>212533578
Private property is immoral and unnatural. Humanity existed most of the time without it.

>>212533578
Your parents are working class. I don't see how the problems of the working class relate to actual rich people

>>212533576
>China
Thanks for reminding me. China is a great case study of how capitalism works and socialism doesn't.

>In December 1978, eighteen of the local farmers, led by Yen Jingchang,[5] met in the largest house in the village. They agreed to break the law at the time by signing a secret agreement to divide the land, a local People's Commune, into family plots. Each plot was to be worked by an individual family who would turn over some of what they grew to the government and the collective whilst at the same time agreeing that they could keep the surplus for themselves. The villagers also agreed that should one of them be caught and sentenced to death that the other villagers would raise their children until they were eighteen years old.[5][6] At the time, the villagers were worried that another famine might strike the village after a particularly bad harvest and more people might die of hunger.[6]

>After this secret capitalist reform, Xiaogang village produced a harvest that was larger than the previous five years combined.[5] Per capita income in the village increase from 22 yuan to 400 yuan with grain output increasing to 90,000 kg in 1979.[6] This attracted significant attention from surrounding villages and before long the government in Beijing had found out. The villagers were fortunate in that at the time China had just changed leadership after Mao Zedong had died. The new leadership under Deng Xiaoping was looking for ways to reform China's economy and the discovery of Xiaogang's innovation was held up as a model to other villages across the country. This led to the abandonment of collectivised farming across China and a large increase in agricultural production. The secret signing of the contract in Xiaogang is widely regarded as the beginning of the period of rapid economic growth and industrialisation that mainland China has experienced in the thirty years since.

>>212533602
They're not "working class", they're bourgeois.

>>212533553
i mean doesn't this just mean life expectancy around the glove improved? cuba, china and north korea improved as well?

>>212533600
based take desu. I can concede to that.
>>212533602
My business-owning parents are working class? And all the problems I described suddenly vanish when you have an X amount of euros in your bank account? What are you smoking?

>>212533576
More socialism:

>The Great Leap Forward (Second Five Year Plan) of the People's Republic of China (PRC) was an economic and social campaign led by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) from 1958 to 1962. CCP Chairman Mao Zedong launched the campaign to reconstruct the country from an agrarian economy into a communist society through the formation of people's communes.

>Millions of people died in China during the Great Leap, with estimates ranging from 15 to 55 million, making the Great Chinese Famine the largest famine in human history.

Less socialism:

>The Communist Party authorities carried out the market reforms in two stages. The first stage, in the late 1970s and early 1980s, involved the de-collectivization of agriculture, the opening up of the country to foreign investment, and permission for entrepreneurs to start businesses. However, a large percentage of industries remained state-owned. The second stage of reform, in the late 1980s and 1990s, involved the privatization and contracting out of much state-owned industry. The 1985 lifting of price controls[7] was a major reform, and protectionist policies and regulations soon followed, although state monopolies in sectors such as banking and petroleum remained. In 2001, China joined the World Trade Organization (WTO). The private sector grew remarkably, accounting for as much as 70 percent of China's gross domestic product by 2005.[8] From 1978 until 2013, unprecedented growth occurred, with the economy increasing by 9.5% a year.

>>212533455
That misses the point of my earlier post. I was just making a contrast between OP's medieval mindset and where we are at as humankind.

The real debt is the extreme lack of awareness that procreation is an ever growing debt imposed on the world. If we had machines (we do) to feed people, a X number of people, we can just have people not need to starve to death if they can't work. I'm being simplistic - of course people don't just need feeding, they need dentists, doctors, heat, clean water - but if we can capture enough energy for an X amount of people, and this X number is respected, inequality wouldn't be as painful as it is today, as in, people wouldn't need to be in poverty

Poverty - bad
Being rich - good
Not being in poverty - not bad
Not being rich - not bad

>>212533631
Everything should be rented and owned by the state which is elected by citizens 14-64

>>212533600
You're an example of why leftists should be locked up in insane asylums.
Even chimps understand private property.

>>212533659
Statehood is immoral and unnatural. Humanity existed most of the time without it.

>>212533299
>left-winger who lives off taxpayers calling anyone a parasite
LOL

>>212533624
No, some countries like Poland or Hungary or Bulgaria actually benefitted from capitalism. And some, like Russia or Ukraine, failed miserably and are in an incredibly bad position. Even without this war they were pretty bad but this war is just a cherry on top of the cake, I am shocked how we have retards looking at goddamn Texas and California of the East fighting it out, sacrificing enormous resources and lots of men in the proccess and they still think capitalism was a net benefit for all. Russia already lost twice more men as dead within 3 years of war than the USA did during the entire Vietnam. All of this could have been avoided if the USSR did not fall apart

>>212533620
If you aren't a millionaire you not bourgeois
>>212533631
>And all the problems I described suddenly vanish when you have an X amount of euros in your bank account?
Literally yes? At a certain point of wealth you have so much that it literally wont change your life in any way if it gets stolen from you. Jeff Bezos could lose 95% of his wealth tomorrow and he would still never run out of money.

>>212533663
Animals fight over things of course chimps believe in private property just like two ant hills fighting over territory.

>>212533600
Wrong. Private property is moral and natural.

>>212533696
Oh, yes, because people can’t steal in millions. Actual retard.

>>212533680
They had tribal structures. Don't go all semantics. Governing structures have always been around.

>>212533708
I doesn't even make sense. You give a guy paper that you believe has worth to protect your giant boat you don't use.
Nice "system"

>>212533724
Tribal structures have nothing to do with statehood. Statehood emerges from agriculture. There’s zero need for state hierarchy and bureaucracy in a tribal band of 50ish people who are all essentially one extended family.

>>212533663
>chimps understand private property.
You are legit retarded

can yall acknowledge that not all that is natural is good so it's pointless we attribute this judgement to any topic as a means to argue for it?

>>212533686
i mean if you are going to compare a specific time frame and life expectancy and than attribute it to a change of government, this should be the reverse or stagnation for countries with differing governments no? but we can see on a global scale that almost all countries improved during that landscape regardless of 'capitalism' and 'communism'. but we can clearly se that cuba and china had significant life expectancy growth during this period as well.

>>212533750
See now it's semantics. Fine.

Owned by the tribe.

>>212533771
Tell me, what tribe has the equivalent of the Department of Commerce or the Federal Reserve?

I mean at a certain point you have to be like an alien look at our economic systems and think it's a fucking joke.
What gives money it's worth
Belief
What happens when people lose belief
Money loses worth.
Random children get billions, doctors can't even get close to them, it's all fucking retarded and the correct way to fix it is to first admit it's fucking retarded.

>>212533429
>>212533593
Leftists are addicted to lying because your entire worldview is built on lies.
>Life expectancy in Russia
>1991: 68.47 years
>today: 72.7 years
When a leftist's mouth is moving, he's lying.

>>212533800
I ain't doing this work question and response shit with you. Stop it or I'm ignoring you. We had a decent conversation. Shits weird. Even for this site.

>>212533829
Oh, I get it, you’re too retarded to understand what statehood is and how it differs from tribalism. Thanks for clarifying.

>>212533760
I don't attributte it solely to change of government to one system. As I said, some, like Poland, managed to make it work. Some, like Russia, did not. If Russia stayed socialist or at least did the Chinese switch without going full anarcho-capitalist we would be almost guaranteed to have seen a much higher improvement in economy and quality of living of ordinary Russians than we did in real life. Neither communism nor capitalism are definitie answers, it's always a question of how a system and its reform are handled. A GDR or the USSR were much better places to live in than, say, communist China and Cambodia or capitalist Cuba or Brazil. The Russian improvement for the last 30 years was very miniscule, even today the average monthly wage of a Russian citizen is around $600 a month, meanwhile for Ukrainians it's the shocking $250 a month. What kind of success is that? It's hilarious when 1st world retards who have never seen this poverty tell me, an easterner, how awesome life is under capitalism or how much it improved since 1991 (it did not improve for Ukrainians or Russians)

>>212533754
Retarded leaf projection.

>>212533837
Okay you got somethings going on..

>>212533743
That boat exists because someone paid for it.

>>212530680 (OP)
>It sure is bad that a heroin junkie doesn’t earn as much as a neurosurgeon…
pathetic cherrypicking
>>212530863
this is why continuous wealth redistribution is necessary
>>212533047
>In fact there shouldn't exist professional athletes at all. They should all be forced to work jobs and do sports as their hobbies
no all millionaires should be taxed 90+%

>>212533817
And in your retarded brain 72 is a normal number for a former superpower, for a country that was rivaling the USA at some point, for a country that gave up its entire empire and in exchange got life expectancy lower than Thailand's and Vietnam's, life expectancy rivaling modern Philippines? In your diseased mind it's ok for Russia to be on par with SEA countries but just 35 years ago it would cause a scandal if you compared the Soviet Union to Philippines

>>212533576
China hasn't been communist for like 40-50 years now. It's a mixed economy, but I wouldnt expect a brainlet like you to know that

>>212533838
>If Russia stayed socialist or at least did the Chinese switch without going full anarcho-capitalist we would be almost guaranteed to have seen a much higher improvement in economy and quality of living of ordinary Russians than we did in real life.
The exact opposite is true, you braindead fucking moron.
Kill yourself for being a stupid and gullible leftist rat.

>>212533899
>a mixed economy
aka capitalist

>>212530680 (OP)
We should practice extreme meritocracy in society, which means no inheritance of any kind should be allowed

>>212533838
It's funny how you'll reject any evidence that undermines the socialism you were indoctrinated with as a stupid and gullible predditor.

https://rd.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230114319_3
>Compared to those that were less free, countries with higher economic freedom ratings during 1980–2005 had lower rates of both extreme and moderate poverty in 2005. More importantly, countries with higher levels of economic freedom in 1980 and larger increases in economic freedom during the 1980s and 1990s achieved larger poverty rate reductions than economies that were less free. These relationships were true even after adjustment for geographic and locational factors and foreign assistance as a share of income. The positive relations between the level and change in economic freedom and reductions in poverty were both statistically significant and robust across alternative specifications.

>>212533899
China is a centrally planned economy to this day with markets, retard. It's as gommunist as it ever was.
t. Chang

>>212533838
mohrsiebeck.com/en/article/the-relationship-between-economic-freedom-and-poverty-rates-cross-country-evidence-101628jite-2020-0042
>We study the relationship between economic freedom and poverty rates in 151 countries over a twenty-year period. Using the World Bank's poverty headcounts of those living on less than $1.90 per day, $3.20 per day, and $5.50 per day, we find evidence that economic freedom, measured by the Heritage Foundation's Index of Economic Freedom, is associated with lower poverty rates. We also test the effect of various components of the Index of Economic Freedom. We find that a government's integrity and a country's trade freedom are associated with lower poverty rates. We check the robustness of our results using alternative freedom indices.

What about a heroin junky who is also a neurosurgeon?
>>212533942
flag checks out

>>212533933
I grew up in Eastern Ukraine and did not even speak English until I turned 19. If you don't know it yet, there has been no communist party in Ukraine since 2014 and in the parliamant there's no left-of-center party at all, not even soc-dems. Out of the two of us there's only one bootlicker toying the ideology of his country, and it's you. In my country I can get jailed for my views.

>>212533838
>GDR
LOL
>Before the Wall's erection, 3.5 million East Germans circumvented Eastern Bloc emigration restrictions and defected from the GDR, many by crossing over the border from East Berlin into West Berlin; from there they could then travel to West Germany and to other Western European countries. Between 1961 and 1989, the Wall prevented almost all such emigration.

>>212533942
You're retarded. If China were actually a communist country you wouldn't even have a stock market since everything would be state-owned. China is a mixed economy that's more centrally planned than the average westoid economy, but it doesn't change the fact that it's not a communist country

>>212533892
Life expectancy improved, you stupid rat.
No red herrings will save you.

>>212533942
How many billionaires does this "communist" country have?

Apparently the 2nd highest number in the world, right after the USA.

Not to mention over 100 billionaires in its ruling parliament.

>>212534002
No one's a bigger bootlicker than a socialist.

>>212534026
>let me tell you about Zhongguo
Stick to cleaning toilets.
>you wouldn't even have a stock market
The Chinese stock market is smoke and mirrors. The USSR had money too. Was it not le gommunist either?
>it doesn't change the fact that it's not a communist country
Are you doing a "it's not a classless stateless moneyless country" or a "it's not like my post-Soviet country" meme? You'd think a Pole would know better, but Poles don't think at all.
>>212534074
All under control of the party.

>>212534146
>no rebuttal just insults and "trust me bro" reasoning
missing link behavior

>>212534168
In order for me to create a counter-argument, you need to make a valid argument in the first place. You haven't even defined "communist country" which is what I implied you should do.
Seriously, stick to your lane. The amount of westerners who understand the Chinese system is very small and you aren't even close to the right answer, no point in teaching a toddler how to tie a shoelace. But you deserve an upvote for your reddit tier theories.

>>212534146
>All under control of the party.
They're the ones running the party, moron.

>Also prefiguring the man was a trait that Marx developed early in his youth and never relinquished: a shameless sponging on friends and relatives. Already in early 1837, Heinrich Marx, castigating his son Karl's wanton spending of the money of others, wrote to him that "on one point … you have wisely found fit to observe an aristocratic silence; I am referring to the paltry matter of money." Indeed, Marx took money from any source available: his father, mother, and throughout his adult life, his long-suffering friend and abject disciple, Friedrich Engels, all of whom fueled Marx's capacity for spending money like water.

>An insatiable spender of other people's money, Marx continually complained about a shortage of financial means. While sponging on Engels, Marx perpetually complained to his friend that his largess was never enough. Thus, in 1868, Marx insisted that he could not make do on an annual income of less than £400-£500, a phenomenal sum considering that the upper tenth of Englishmen in that period were earning an average income of only £72 a year. Indeed, so profligate was Marx that he quickly ran through an inheritance from a German follower of £824 in 1864, as well as a gift of £350 from Engels in the same year.

>As in the case of many other spongers and cadgers throughout history, Karl Marx affected a hatred and contempt for the very material resource he was so anxious to cadge and use so recklessly. The difference is that Marx created an entire philosophy around his own corrupt attitudes toward money. Man, he thundered, was in the grip of the "fetishism" of money.

Karl Marx was an insatiable, lazy parasite and total loser, just like his followers. No wonder they idolize him, since they see themselves in him.

>>212534295
I will personally let Jack Ma know of his new promotion, schizo. Ali Express is now Ali Nation!

>>212530680 (OP)
Generally speaking yes.

>>212533942
>>212534146
>>212534287
Let's hear your personal definition of what a "communist country" is.

>>212534335
Billionaire infighting doesn't mean billionaires don't rule. See >>212534074.

>>212534311
Why do we care about who he was in his personal life?

>>212534287
I assumed you already know what makes a communist country, so I don't have to define it. If your country has a capital owning class, then it's by definition not a communist country, and having a stock market, which even foreigners can invest into, which regulary pays out dividends to its shareholders, is not something a communist country would ever have


Your arguments are fucking retarded because they basically boil down to
>DUDE IM CHINESE!
appeal to "authority"
>STOCK MARKETS SHOULDNT BE A THING IN COMMUNIST COUNTRIES? BUT SOVIET UNION HAD MONEY TOO!
false equivalency
>BRO TRUST ME I HAVE ACCESS TO STATE SECRETS OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY AND I KNOW THE STOCK MARKET IS JUST SMOKE AND MIRRORS
an argument so retarded I can't even wrap my head around it, yeah im sure a random slant eyed chink from a family of hunchbacked rice pickers knows what goes on inside the communist party meetings

>>212534376
His insane ideology is downstream of his personal insanity.

>>212533846
They don't understand the concept.

>>212534376
It's not a good idea to take social morals from pedophiles and economic advice from men who can't do basic math

>>212531084
I'm not saying that a rich person didn't work harder than a poor person. But he certainly didn't work 1000x harder than him.

>>212534398
They do, at the basic level.
They even barter.

>>212534389
Not really? There's famous people out there who did way worse shit to be honest. The guy who made the Schrodinger's Cat analogy was an actual predator and knocked up a student of his through rape, Oscar Wilde nonced in Morrocco and many French writers and authors did so too, Richard Meinertzhagen stole animal samples for himself and passed them off as his own and also committed extrajudicial murder during colonial service against the orders of his officer.

>>212534445
Not in the frame work humans do.

>>212534346
For a country with 1+ billion, 800 is super small.

Private property is different from personal property but you aren't ready to have that conversation yet.

>>212533906
The Singapore of Today is filled with immigrant labourers and none kf the locals are having kids

>>212534473
I'm not the other anon but marx would not get pass middle school math. He could not be an accountant or stock market analyst or do anything involving hard numbers. He did not understand some algebra, no calculus it appears no probability math
He never understood how economies worked. Like gdp growth were just neat numbers to him he could talk about. He did not understand the calculations going on

>>212534558
Welcome to the economic writings of that era lol. A lot of their math was pretty iffy because they did not have access to the same models we do now. It also isn't tied to mathematics or numbers since it is a social science.

>>212534473
>Oscar Wilde nonced in Morrocco and many French writers and authors did so too
How is that bad exactly

>>212534473
>commie cope
Shut up, commie rat.

>>212534515
>billionaire wealth concentration is communist
Always funny to watch you bunkertrannies tie yourselves in knots with your mental gymnastics.

Or like you could take a graph of economic growth over time
It's got its ups and downs and a pattern to it you can measure what does what and start making predictions based on numbers.
Country x refined an extra 500 billion worth in oil, the economy which was 2 trillion will increase to 250 this is how it should go over time

Marx had no idea how to do this. Or track history. Like none of it. Sometimes I think he's just a random idiot a bunch of new money found and used to convince poor people in resource countries to work for pennies to fight "capitalist*

>>212534492
Weird cope

>>212534589
I'm going to assume you didn't mean math has nothing to do with political science or economics. Both are built on math. If you can't do calculus you can't be a political scientist for instance.

>>212534528
Any other commie schizobabble you want to share from your friends at preddit?

>>212530680 (OP)
You wouldn’t have problems of “muh wealth distribution” in a collectivist society. The issue is not capitalism or socialism, it is not whether the government has its thumb on a business or whether a business has its thumb on people, but that everyone is everyone’s enemy. Competing against members of your own nation is self defeating, competition should be a competition between nations. You wouldn’t need to “climb the ladder” if the tribe is sufficient in itself, and you wouldn’t have isolated homeless drug addicted bums if everyone is part of the same group.

>>212534704
Competition incentivizes efficiency and innovation.
It's literally what keeps prices down.

>>212534660
Chimps understand personal property but private property is a bit too complex for them.

>>212534742
There is no difference.
You've just swallowed too many reddit memes.
>m-muh toothbrush!
Shut the fuck up you spastic retard. Come back when you graduate middle school.

>>212534741
Oh yeah. Really keeping prices down and wages up.

I feel like they will say something about wmds in some mena country, yell about transexuals then tell me about the low prices and high wages our system has brought us over 25 years running. Can't wait for that next presidential election
I'm just guessing it's going to be a Democrat vs Republican and it will be close less than 5% again.
This is a never ending joke.

>>212534785
Yes.
Competition incentivizes efficiency and innovation.
Do you do your own shopping? Or do mommy and daddy do it for you?

>>212534877
See
>>212534848

Shut the fuck up with your bitch made questions you fucking freak. Jesus Christ I see why others bailed. You all can't stop with that shit.

>>212534848
vpnbro, are you lost >>>/pol/ is that way
your curator is not going to be happy

Playing devil's advocate, your personality as well as your skills are pre-determined. Kinda makes sense to try to reduce suffering as much as possible in general from that perspective, if you're into that stuff.

>>212534741
>>212534877
i companies could compete on who can put the most corn syrup in our food, but alas the tyrannical EU keeps them in chains

>>212530680 (OP)
Good thread OP, I bet you're also going to to say
>stabbing yourself bad
Which you should do, you stupid fuck.

>>212534473
Yes really.
Marx was a lazy, careless, ungrateful scumbag, a spendthrift of other people's money, and it shows in his ideology.

>>212534952
I'm not surprised that the Cyprus tranny from reddit doesn't understand even basic economics.
See >>212533933, >>212533965.

>>212535028
Green line go up

>>212534983
Butthurt commie freak.
People aren't equal.
Stop seething because others are better than you. Envious freak.

>>212535014
Newton also shoved a rod in his eye and drank mercury, should we discount Calculus too? Dumbass.

>>212535046
Post your bank account then, let's the "Capitalist" with his high earnings. Oh wait you won't because you're just another cock-muncher for billionaires hoping to get saved kek

>>212535067
You commie rats come up with some weird copes.

>>212535127
>Doesn't answer the question
Topkek what a retard. Btw Ray Dhalio and Warren Buffett agree with Marx so I'll listen to them than some basement dweller on /int/.

>>212535110
See? You're a butthurt commie rat seething in envy because others are more successful than you.
That's literally the only thing that drives your worldview: envy and resentment.
Everything else is post-hoc rationalization.

>>212535127
Unc has PTSD from the Cold war
Unc scrambles to hide under the desk.

>>212535159
I don't know, man. You're sounding pretty emotional right now.

>>212535146
See? You commie rats are mentally ill spiteful mutant freaks who belong in insane asylums.

>>212535176
0/10 ragebait

>>212535146
Communists lie like normal people breathe air.

>>212535146
Communists lie like normal people breathe air.
If a Communist speaks, he's probably lying.

>>212535210
Capitalists be like let's put aids in water and then price up the medicine

>>212535169
I'm not the commie seething with envy, whose entire life revolves around resentment at other people's success.

>>212535210
>>212535220
Nowhere does it say they disagree with Marx, dumbass.

>>212535210
>>212535220
Also Thomas Sowell, the economist that Fox News glazes over, also agrees with Marx and says western economists and Marxist economists view the economy the same way. Seethe harder.

>>212530680 (OP)
Yeah
Be white (supposedly)
Act black and scream that the government needs to steal on your behalf because it's just not fair you weren't born with a trust fund
And if you're on 4chan pretend you're different because you don't like Jews despite worshipping Marxism under a different name
Envyfags are not human

>>212535224
>AIDS
>transmitted via water
KEK. Stupid commie rat.
Also, never happened.
But Communists did murder over 100 million people.

>>212535244
Is this bait or are you actually retarded?

>>212531522
Surgeons don't create jobs.
Why are you SO dumb he laid it out for you that simply and you spam some random non sequitur? Fuck off leaf.

>>212535300
Are you? Socialism precedes Marx you dumbfuck.

>>212535265
I see. You're now putting on the whole "I'm only pretending to be retarded" act because you made a complete fool of yourself.

>>212535331
>Marx rejected socialism and wanted to preserve capitalism
I know you're now putting up the "I was only pretending to be retarded" act because you embarrassed yourself, but I'm curious to see how far you'll go

>>212530680 (OP)
Billionaires might not work harder than you, but they have added more value than you (unless they inherited their wealth in which their parents added more value). People can't accept that working hard and adding value are not the same thing.

Obviously there's some exceptions since some get rich by rent seeking or corruption, but mostly this is the case. Existence of billionaires isn't a bad thing, its a reward for adding value, we just need to make rent seeking and corruption not possible

>>212535331
Marxism is a type of socialism.

But can you please give a single example of Warren Buffet espousing Marxism? I'm sure he agreed with Marx on some things, maybe Marx thought ice cream was good and I agree with him on that.

>>212535310
Fuming

>>212535363
>>212535337
>Foaming at the mouth because you have no counter arguments
KEK

Also, Ray Dalio also literally said this in The Changing World Order Big cycle of China and its currency. (2020)

>In a nutshell dialectical materialism, Marx’s system for producing change, is a systematic way of observing events transpire and influencing them by watching and influencing ‘contradictions’ of ‘opposites’ that produce ‘struggles’ that, when resolved, produce progress. Marx meant it to apply to everything. The conflict and struggle between the classes that is manifest in the conflict between capitalism and communism is just one of many such conflicts.
>Thus far that sounds right to me

Of course you don't know this because you're a dumbass who doesn't read books. Sad!

>>212534473
>>212535067
How does any of this relate to Marx building a whole ideology around the fact that he was a lazy, neglectful, covetous piece of shit and wastrel?
I don't see the connection.

>>212535564
Dalio rejects socialism and wants to preserve capitalism.
You lost.

>>212535235
Is this a calm, rational response?

>>212535654
>No arguments
Cry harder.

>>212530680 (OP)
Idk. There are criminals here that earn more than neurosurgeons

>>212535659
Yes.
Now, explain why you think others being wealthy and successful hurts your life.
We both know the answer is psychological: You're an envious person.

>>212535667
You lied. You got caught. You lost.
The pitiful life of a commie rat.

>>212535709
You're assuming that I have an opinion I never argued or indicated here. I just think your posts are so uniquely pathetic and childish that they warranted a response in a discussion I didn't otherwise care about.

>>212535709
I mean even Aristotle acknowledged wealth inequality as well in his time. Should we disregard his philosophy and his influence on other philosophers because he was "le jealous?" Dumbfuck.
>>212535724
>Still foaming
Shhh there's no need to be upset over words on the internet.

>>212535731
Uh-huh.
This is the dishonesty one expects from a commie.

>>212535749
This is so stupid, it's gotta be bait.

>>212535770
Are you now going to deny you're a commie, too? LOL.

>>212530680 (OP)
>>wealth inequality bad
The reason there are many pajeets flooding firstie countries is wealth inequality in their homeland

>>212535742
Aw, the little commie freak is angry :(
>Aristotle acknowledged wealth inequality
And did not support socialism.

>>212532773
actual cavemen cared for their disabled, you're not dumber than them, are you?

>>212535871
>And did not support socialism
LOL because it didn't exist as a concept back then retard

>>212535816
Wrong, you retard. It's poverty.
Hong Kong, Singapore, Switzerland, Taiwan, and plenty of others are more unequal than India.

>>212531045
You are creating an allowance structure for a parasite population
Bare minimum life quality should be provided only in company of forced sterilization.
You don't need a population creating a bare minimum subsistence strategy thriving in numbers.

That is how latin américa got favellas

>>212535888
Yes it did, you ignorant retard.
Aristophanes even wrote comedies about it.

>>212530680 (OP)
>waaaaaaah why does the shitty public school teacher make less than the professional sports player who is watched by hundreds of thousands of people.... THAT'S NOT FAIR!!!!
Boy oh boy.

>>212535963
Ancient Greek """socialism""" =/= Dialectical materialist socialism envisioned by Marx and Engels

Hope this helps, dumbass!

I actually like when my countrymen prosper and feel good, i want the children of my country to have ready access to healthcare and education, and if that means evening out the wealth difference of a doctor and the hospital manager from 1:300 to 1:100 i think that’s a good thing actually

>>212530680 (OP)
Nice straw man, you silly billy. When people say shit like this they aren't wishing for communism. They are just wishing the CEO of a company made 35 times what their employees make instead of 350 times what they make. People could afford to live decent lives if it weren't for rich people excessively hoarding wealth. Some happy and successful countries have it capped at 11 times. You are probabably to stupid to understand nuance and call anything other then complete surfedom communism or some shit.

The middle class was better off with CEOs making 35 times their employees salary than they are today at 350 times their employees salary.

>>212530680 (OP)
Come to Canada and USA for fifa
You’ll change your mind real quick

>>212530680 (OP)
Yes, I'm broke and I do nothing with my money apart from buying food and gas. I don't want more, if someone else has a project and takes a loan out to see it through I don't care. What I do care about is if I can trust them, which therein lies the real issue.

>>212536005
Marx is a materialist reading of Hegel, there's very little difference between their forms of idealism apart from the fact that Marx thought you could quantify the worth of society in production.

>I actually like when my countrymen prosper and feel good, i want the children of my country to have ready access to healthcare and education, and if that means evening out the wealth difference of a doctor and the hospital manager from 1:300 to 1:100 i think that’s a good thing actually

>>212536005
LOL! Keep coping, pussy.
Communism lost.

>>212536060
>They are just wishing the CEO of a company made 35 times what their employees make instead of 350 times what they make.
Why?
>People could afford to live decent lives if it weren't for rich people excessively hoarding wealth.
Wrong.
Also, rich people don't "hoard" their wealth. They're not as stupid as you are. They invest it.
>You are probabably to stupid to understand nuance
Says the retard who thinks rich people "hoard" their wealth. Go back to school, you dumb kid. You're too stupid for this discussion.

>>212536026
This doesn't help your countrymen prosper in any way, shape, or form.
You're just appeasing your envy and feelings of inferiority (mental illness).

>>212536005
How so?

>>212530680 (OP)
Let me put it this way
>have 10 million bucks
>do fucking nothing
>get 1% annual rent from bank
>gain 100k doing jack shit
this is LE BAD because you just print income from wealth while doing nothing actively making the economy worse

>be nerd that dedicates entire life to become brain surgeon
>get paid 15k a month
>random normie job schmuck earns like 3k a month
this is LE GOOD because it drives people to do their best to produce more valuable shit making the economy better

>>212533887
We kind of have that, of you do more it kind of becomes like income redirstibution but if you do less it kind of becomes like nothing

>>212533887
>all millionaires should be taxed 90+%
Why? Because you're an envious loser and spiteful mutant.

>>212530680 (OP)
Something I've faced a lot is hatred towards inheritance.
As if me receiving my parents hard earned money is a bad and evil thing.
Gets even worse when they find out Sweden doesn't have any inheritance tax.

>>212536880
>>212536936
You seem really stupid because you are asking questions about a subject you are debating. That's not Socratic method. It's a major logical fallacy. "Bad faith questions," or *Socratic sophistry*
Either you are ignorant a subject you are debating or you are a sophist but too stupid to realize it. I was wondering why this thread keeps popping up. Indians and rednecks.

>>212537213
That one is really gay best thing you can say about ut is it motivated your dad and its hard to enforce itax

>>212533624
What happened to those countries in 1991?
>>212533760
>china
Because they switched from socialism to capitalism.
See >>212533615 and >>212533638.

>>212537231
A question isn't a fallacy.

Don't use words you don't understand, lest you embarrass yourself again.

>>212530680 (OP)
You're always going to be bending the knee to someone. Whether it's the state or a billionaire, I don't see what's the difference to be honest
Some people have insane amounts more, some people have nothing, who cares honestly
>>212533600
>Humanity existed most of the time without it.
You mean like hunter gatherers? Maybe that's true, but arguably even for them i bet people probably had some sense of like this is my own bow, this is my own hut, or whatever
But either way unless you want to go back to a hunter gatherer lifestyle pretty much every civilization even ancient ones had private property. Ancient Rome had elites with insane amounts of wealth and land for example
as soon as trade existed there were people hoarding shit

>>212530680 (OP)
I wouldn't mind it as much if it wasn't so wide.
It's depressing, especially since we have this thing called the government to help everyone out.

>>212530973
>getting blasted by French lasers from a billionaire
Kinky

>>212530680 (OP)
>least psychotic krauy

>>212534595
Did marx actually write that? This is the stupidest piece of text i've ever read. And I read a lot of 4chan posts.

once wealth inequality becomes bad enough you get a critical mass of plebs who have become so desperate that violence becomes an option. This is why it's bad, it doesn't have to be some moral argument or a conversation about libertarianism or some shit

If you think inequality isn’t evil then you are a bad person and should be shot. Simple as

>>212533137
Okay but factories are globohomo genocide machines

>>212539323
>it’s evil that some are born with Down’s syndrome while others are Gauss-tier prodigies
Nah, I don’t think nature is evil. I’m not a looney.

An entire thread of people under 20

>>212539394
I said simple as, that’s a period and means it’s not up for further discussion

>>212539404
The lack of philosophical maturity ITT is infuriating.

>>212539420
I am sorry you live in such an evil world built by talented men. Must suck.

>>212530680 (OP)
yes, subhuman poorfags love talking about other people's money

>>212539703
>French flag talking about philosophy
Lol retard

>>212530680 (OP)
>>wealth inequality bad
too much inequality and you have a small number of people idling on a hoard of wealth.
too little inequality and no one has the motivation to excel, productivity plummets.
>Do people parrot this shit in your country?
""people"" are barely sentient in general.

>>212530680 (OP)
is more like
>neurosurgeon should earn more than the big medical and big pharma

>>212537210
NTA, he's obviously some sort of retard socialist, but taxes incentivise business owners to reinvest their money, which is exactly what you want them to do. Excessive taxes obviously have the negative outcome of flight.