Thread 213898169

Do. The. Work.

>What language(s) are you learning?
>Share language learning experiences!
>Ask questions about your target language!
>Help people who want to learn a new language!
>Participate in translation challenges or make your own!
>Make frens!

Read the wiki:
https://4chanint.miraheze.org/wiki/The_Official_/int/_How_to_Learn_A_Foreign_Language_Guide_Wiki

Useful links:
>Free language‐learning book archive:
https://mega.nz/folder/INlRkAQC#CthKI9-_kmDNyrOx12Ojbw
>Books on linguistics and language courses:
https://mega.nz/#F!Ad8DkLoI!jj_mdUDX_ay-8D9l3-DbnQ
>Assorted language resources and some nice visual guides:
https://pastebin.com/ACEmVqua
>Torrents with more resources than you’ll ever need for 30 plus languages:
https://archive(dot)ph/x0dFH
>Russianon’s list of comprehensible input resources:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wXd0V32TjCFsr1-F_en_lA4MI-i7JtyYf26cWLtPRec
>Massive collection of textbooks on various languages, sorted by family
https://theswissbay.ch/pdf/Books/Linguistics/
>/lang/ inpoot torrents
https://rentry.org/inpoot
>Refold Anki decks
https://rentry.org/refold

Previous:
>>213818362

>>213898037
I think you're right, and also their motivation comes from the wrong direction. It goes
>It would be cool if I knew another language -> I should learn another language -> Which language though...?
when it should be
>Wow [language] is great, it sounds nice, I love their music and content, it would be so useful to know it, I want to live in that country, I want a gf who speaks that language, etc. etc. -> I should learn [language] -> How do you go about learning a language?.

हम यहाँ हैं और यह ठीक है।

I've decided to stop learning all languages besides French and Old Norse
The fact that I read more slowly in French than in English is a sign that I'm nowhere near close enough to where I want to be

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alveolar_approximant.ogg

Cute voice.

>>213823483
Does this guy have an unusually strong accent or something? I can only make a few words out in total, let alone try to understand a single sentence

>>213898202
The way I see it, their thought process goes like this:
>Wow [language] is great, [...] -> Holy shit this is going to take years and a lot of time and effort on a daily basis -> Hmmm, therefore I need a truly good reason that's going to make it all worth it, yes it sounds nice but that's not going to make me do the work, is it? -> Maybe there's another language with more to offer? [repeat]

This thought process is pretty natural, but it's a trap. Once you make that initial "breakthrough" and you demystify the work and you understand the language learning process, the barrier of entry becomes so miniscule that any silly reason can serve as an excuse to learn a language. I personally don't have any big reasons for learning my TLs other than thinking it would be cool to know 5+ languages someday.

>>213898183
It's the same mechanism that makes video games intrinsically enjoyable. You just need to establish a feedback loop of "action" leads to "desired result". In a video game, that takes 2 minutes if it's designed well, but for language learning it might take a couple months or more, depending on how difficult the language and if you use the right method. Once you know "how to play" so to speak, the activity becomes compelling to do for its own sake and the end goal just becomes an excuse to do the work. Many hobbies have an initial hurdle that you need to cross before it becomes intrinsically fun i.e. learning to play your first song on the guitar, managing to draw something actually decent, beating your first boss in dark souls or whatever. My particular breakthrough moment was learning like 500 words in Anki and finding I could read a basic graded reader in German, then the feedback loop became super clear to me: learn more words and try to read harder stuff to make progress. It's like figuring out you can dodge roll in a certain way and then attack and deal a decent amount of damage to the boss, suddenly the whole thing becomes possible in your mind.

>>213898202
>it sounds nice
Italian, Swedish, Japanese, Spanish, German
>I love their music and content
Japanese, old bengers in Italian and Spanish - I HATE reggaeton, some bands and songs in Swedish and German. Danish movies are great
>it would be so useful to know it
German, maybeee Swedish
>I want to live in that country
German, Swedish, but Italian and French and Spanish and Japanese if I find a way to make good money there, so it probably not gonna happen
>I want a gf who speaks that language
Any from above plus French and Portuguese
I think the more questions like this, the more thinking, the worse it gets. You should act on your impulse right away, don't read about various methods, don't watch language celebrities, but start learning words and phrases, maybe writing, and some basic content. Like, there is cool Japanese band, you sit down, type japanese 101 or basic japanese on youtube and start learning.
>>213899505
Sometimes, things that are too easy can be discouraging, while difficult ones can fuel ambition and motivate. This is probably the success of Dark Souls, and why people don't want to achieve high levels in "easy" languages, because they'll do it without any problem someday.

>>213899505
>>Language learning isn't as intrinsically enjoyable as many other activities you could be doing.
>It's the same mechanism that makes video games intrinsically enjoyable. You just need to establish a feedback loop of "action" leads to "desired result"
Yeah, I was about to say that for me, it's actually about as fun as video games lol. I suppose that's because the feeeback loop is established. The first few months or so were fueled by just pure novelty of using the language, and it only became that fun in its own right afterwards. (It helps that I've always loved learning about grammar and used to be a linguistics nerd.) And even then, probably not everyone could find it that enjoyable if they're not okay with slow progress even with a lot of work.
>I think the more questions like this, the more thinking, the worse it gets. You should act on your impulse right away,
Yeah, I don't think they meant to pose those as questions for deciding a language. It's more like you see a language and those thoughts just keep popping up in your mind - kind of like how you feel when you get a crush on someone. "It's just so cool, it sounds so nice, blah blah blah, I have to learn it!"

>>213901161
Meant to reply to >>213900846 for the second paragraph

>>213899505
>Holy shit this is going to take years and a lot of time and effort on a daily basis
I don't know if a dabbler really understands the required amount of time and effort. Maybe on paper, but not intuitively. That's why they dabble, they were never truly really committed in the first place. So when it starts to get hard and the progress slows down, they start to think about what they're missing out on by not learning that other language that seemed equally cool as the one they chose.
Basically it comes down to commitment, and to be fair, it is actually really hard to commit to something when you don't even really know how much effort/time it's going to take.

I don't even know if I'm committed, to be honest, I'm still just chugging forward because I'm obsessed with the goal. I get frustrated when I only understand 85% of the dialogue in a series. I'm impatient and I just want to reach the finish line. But I keep going every day because I'm obsessed with becoming fluent. I think about it every day. I dream about it at night. How much pure discipline would it take for someone without this obsession to reach fluency?

number of native speakers less than 0.0001% of world population.

>>213901161
>>213901279
Yep. You don't even need to compare it to having a crush, that's how almost every hobby works. Skaters didn't analyze every mechanical vehicle, they just saw a skateboard, a BMX bike, rollerblades, and decided they wanted to do that too. People who draw, practice fencing, dance, etc. saw a hobby, tried it, and decided they wanted to do it (with more or less motivations from parents, people around them, teachers). Things like burnouts, discussions about whether a katana will beat a saber, or what kind of wheels are best comes later
The only problem with learning languages is that it's hard to impress anyone quickly, and the return on investment is delayed compared to many other hobbies. That's why people often choose “cool” languages

Is it worth spending time to learn German for a usual touristy trip to Austria and Switzerland in 2 months?
I guess some basic phrases will be doable but anything more than that?
My only exposure to German is Rammstein and Wir mussen die juden ausrotten.

>>213901329
My theory on dabbling is that it's about running into an obstacle that requires you to adapt and change up your strategy. It's often easier to just switch languages than put in the effort to troubleshoot and overcome the obstacle. It reminds me of when I was kid and I couldn't pass a level in a game so I just played the same sections over and over and always stop right when I hit that level I knew I couldn't pass. Then my cousin would come over and breeze through it lol

Whether you end up dabbling or not, strongly depends on which initial strategy you used that worked for you. Some people start with textbooks and other traditional methods and they end up having some success with it (their "breakthrough"), so this becomes their go-to strategy, but then eventually they hit a wall because it doesn't scale well. People that start with input get much farther, but then a lot of them get discouraged when they still can't speak, so they might go for the "I only care about reading/listening" cope and move on, or they start another language and gradually neglect the first one. When you find a strategy that works, you want to continue using it because your brain is lazy, but reality often requires you to continually adapt and change.

>>213902981
>2 months

Yeah, don't bother. Even if you memorize phrases, you won't understand the response, especially if they whip out some non-standard German dialect.

Just imagine yourself learning Russian, yes russian, that fucking disgusting, nasty, putrid language. fucking inserting it into your brain. Having that goblin speak inscripted inside your memory.
Now imagine people doing that deliberately to themselves.What have the world come to?

>>213903982
Russian is pretty

>>213899110
Yes he's from the Azores. It's an infamous accent

>>213903982
alius diēs, alius nummus. +I sestertius in argentāriā ratiōne tuā.

>>213903982
Because all of the weird internet people speak it , so it’s technically based. I just don’t like the accent and how everyone sounds the same, also you don’t say the words as they look which sucks and they have multiple SH sounds… that’s just the beginning, watch out for everything else

>>213904928
Understanding would be easier than speaking and writing. I can Read the letters and I only know 50 words

Should I read Stefan Zweigs Schachnovelle? My German is at about B1, would it be too difficult?

>>213903953
Zamn.
Still I'll do some basic phrases to not appear rude to the locals+read the signs at public transport and restaurant menus.
And I guess English and google translate will make up the rest.

Can you people roll your R’s
Me : yes kind of but I don’t like how it feels since it’s not used much in my languages. I like doing though, sounds aggressive

>>213906342
Yes, if I couldn't it would be considered a speech impediment.

>>213906342
I think I can roll/trill Rs in two different ways. When I was maybe a teenager, I figured out how to do what I think is called the uvular trill. By now, I think I also have figured out how to do the Spanish (alveolar?) trill, but I wouldn't be able to use it naturally in speech. It's difficult and I have to set up properly for it. Maybe it will get easier if I practice it.

>>213906437
Yeah Spanish does it and that’s all I know, other languages that are not romance I don’t know what type of R they use

>>213906522
I'm glad I just learned how to trill my Rs when I was about 5. I was trying to make "machine gun noises." My Spanish is accented, but at least the R is on point.

If you guys remember, I did an Arabic bootcamp. I only did the grammar segments of it though.
I received an exclusive invitation to enroll in a specialized PhD level Arabic language and its literature bootcamp for $25 a year (lasts 4 years).
I signed up.
I'll do it.
But, is it remotely possible to study another foreign language in those 4 years in the side? Like German, French, Russian, etc?
Or should I put all my focus on Arabic now?

>>213906735
Oops, uploaded the Arabic pic. Sorry.

>>213906735
>I did an Arabic bootcamp
Didn't you quit that and submit a chargeback at your bank?
>I received an exclusive invitation to enroll in a specialized PhD level Arabic language and its literature bootcamp for $25 a year (lasts 4 years).
>I signed up.
You'll be one of the most well-educated speakers of Arabic by the end of it

>>213906864
But I did the grammar segment. month 1 was Grammar (1) and month 2 was Grammar (2). The instructor made some lives and I was there and chatted with him on Google Meet. I was the only college-educated person there and I had an above-level ability to write in eloquent Arabic due to my documentary-maxxing and in the 2016-2018 years I read like 60 books in Arabic.
99% of others who enrolled were kids trying to improve their grades at school, some religious people trying to master theology books (quran, hadiths, etc.) and as far as I know, no one was directly motivated to study for the sake of language itself.
The study discipline of Arabs is very hit-and-miss. No deliberate, ADHD-OCD crazed scan of the page, they just skim the notes, do the exercises, and move on, only absorbing 40% of the material at best.
But due to my OCD I studied the shit out of the grammar modules and used 503905390593 supplementary resources to sentence-maxx on each rule, so I was able to solve the examples.
But sadly, it was a bootcamp and it would only teach you LOWER beginner levels. It was like a small 1 month crash course on each linguistic topic (poetry, grammar, rhetoric) etc.
Arabic language is EXTREMELY neglected and nobody gives a fuck about it. And those people are trying to get more people to study Arabic. It's a prelude to study Islamic studies, but I don't care. I am exploiting their chudness to master the language.
They offer it for cheap prices, and in their telegram they said if you can prove you are broke they can give you free access to the school.

>>213906735
But your flag says you're from Jordan... Don't they speak Arabic there? And if you're not a native of Jordan... why would someone ever move to Jordan who wasn't already there?

>>213906864
The instructors there are EXTREMELY nationalistic. They view Arabs as the masterrace and are extremely anti-West. I said I am C1-C2 in English but had 0 MSA grammar knowledge and they were like "SEE! THEY ARE ERASING OUR HERITAGE!"
They literally think learning Arabic makes you a "man" and deviating from the way of the Arabs makes you a "cuck" and how our "culture" is superior to the West.
I don't care about all that fluff. I just want to be able to flex my advanced Arabic if I ever get in an argument or something lol

>>213905302
Best way to know is to open it up yourself and try to read a couple pages.
https://www.lugiland.de/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/schachnovelle.pdf

If the number of lookups feels too overwhelming, try graded readers. You can find a bunch of them here with audio and categorized by level.
https://lelang.su/german/adaptirovannye-knigi-na-nemetskom-yazyke/

>>213907034
There are two Arabics, the "dialect" street slang version that we use in our every day life, and the "semi-antiquated" Classical Arabic<->Modern Standard Arabic that are used in legal correspondence and mainly religious books.
The slang version is upbeat, relaxed, has "intonation" and is very chill. You can easily add English words mid sentence and still sound "Modern" and ok.
The Standard/Classical version is flat (think Russian), uses bland words, and is VERY official. It's like reading a terms and conditions of a website.
Because only news reporters, orators (mosque shiekhs/priests who give speeches), politicians and people who do public speaking study the standard version, the average person is functionally illiterate in the standard variant.
(We can understand 100% of the standard texts, but we wouldn't be able to produce consistent, grammartically correct sentences if we aren't explicitly taught the rules of grammar and rhetoric).
Use ChatGPT to understand this more.

>>213906663
>>213906663
Other than French and some Portuguese dialects I think, most Romance language have a tap and trill voiced alveolar tap and voiced alveolar trill. I couldn't do the trill as a kid, but it was an easy fix with a few visits to a speech therapist.

Doing the trill doesn't feel like anything to me though.

I wonder if most native English speakers just happen to have ankyloglossia, they seem to have a lot of trouble doing the trill.

>>213906864
I am fighting my inner Jordie and will go to inhumane lengths to persevere and not let any intrusive thought or another language/topic to interfere. I will really do it this time.
When my parents found out, they became pissed and said I should've learned a useful language like French, German, Spanish, or whatever.

What are your study routines like? I want to learn a language with success. :(

>>213907328
Which language?

BTW, in the late 1990s and early 2000s, the Arabic Cartoon news network "Spacetoon" has attempted to "modernize" standard Arabic by making cool theme songs to translated Japanese anime toons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYPIT6FNVLM
This is the (Arabic version) of the theme of an anime called "Ginga Sengoku Gun'yūden Rai".
What do you think about the beat, and the theme overall?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu6EBd3rPmI
This is Batman theme.

new 'glot investigation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0ilCpeoaOQ

>>213899505
>>213898037
You're right here. I do have some internal motivation to study languages. I will try to give it another try and see if I succeed.

Why homely means ugly?

>>213908170
Very american usage

>>213907186
That's very interesting. I'd love to understand this better, but there's not enough time to learn everything.

>>213904860
>Grizzly - get in the robot.
>ÀAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
>ÀAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

>>213898169 (OP)
Is this a Dell XPS 15? Super sexy laptop.

>>213908170
I'd say it's closer to calling someone "plain" rather than outright ugly.

>>213908170
"Ugly" isn't a good definition. It more properly means "plain" (in appearance), and it's easy enough to see how that meaning is derived from the second meaning. It should only mean ugly if you're speaking euphemistically (litotes).

In the same way, "mediocre" doesn't mean bad. Nor should "mid" mean bad (although no one should ever say "mid" in the first place).

>>213907472
>>213907515
Can't say I love either song, but I might just not be properly equipped to appreciate them.

Learn Danish for her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89yLb3goapY

>>213906342
I've gotten slightly better at it, it's easier with a "tr" sound like in "trill", but it's inconsistent. sometimes I think I do the French R (uvular?) instead of the alveolar trill in Latin, Italian, Spanish, etc.

What language is easy for an English or French speaker ? German looks a bit too hardcore

>>213909437
German is category 2 and considered slightly harder.

>>213907205
English R is just completely different. I saw a guy on youtube claim that English generally uses a tense tongue so English speakers struggle to relax it. however I've seen some tips compare the trill to a voiceless D or the tap at the end of "water"

>>213909713
Cool
The first three and Spanish I’m not into as much, so I will take a look at the rest. Never seen anyone learn Romanian, seems like a underground language

>>213906437
>>213906663
The same situation in Poland, probably in all Slavic languages. Rolled r is the most popular r worldwide, both English and French used to have rolled r.

Portugays and Bratzilians explain this shit

>>213907205
Oh, no. There's a trill voiced alveolar tap and voiced alveolar trill? So I have to learn two different kinds of trills now?

>I wonder if most native English speakers just happen to have ankyloglossia, they seem to have a lot of trouble doing the trill.

I don't think so. I think it probably not only takes experimentation to even find the sound in the first place, it might also take practice to strengthen the muscles for it.

I've always presented myself as a guy who is into languages and linguistics. Truth is, at least at uni the average German girl my age (23) knows more languages than me. I never had Latin in school and I'm barely B1 in any other language. Meanwhile those normie girls had years of Latin and French, and often speak a second native language like Russian or Polish. It's even worse when you talk to Luxemburgers, who know English, French, German, Luxemburgish and Portuguese.

>>213912276
did you fuck them?

>>213908170
Euphemism treadmill. A word originally used to substitute for an insulting word becomes insulting in itself

>>213909757
the t flap thing seems so odd. It always sounds identical to a [d] to me.

What are the pros and cons of Swedish and Norwegian, thanks

>>213913081
>norwegian pro
you know norwegian

>norwegian con
you dont know swedish

>swedish pro
you know swedish

>swedish con
you dont know norwegian

hope this helps

>>213913081
I meant to say OR sorry

>>213913081
swedish is easier to learn as a spoken language
norwegian bokmaal is the best middle ground

>>213913367
Hard to decide. I
Might need to listen to both and see what I prefer, sound and pronunciation are important for me. I tend to not like nasal languages very much…
May not be the warmest people or culture but I don’t care, as long as it’s not German I’m fine (used to know a bit of it before, I’m part German too so that’s why). I’m 0 familiar with the two, my brother in law knows Swedish so a part of me doesn’t want to learn the same language as him (copycat)

>>213907328
Depends what stage you are on. In the beginning I normally work through a textbook (pirated) and then once I finish it, I then move onto input (for most of the languages I am learning I only intend to read in them and not much beyond that, so I just read a whole lot - for languages I intend to be competent in broadly I consume a wider range of media).

Generally I quite like the "Teach Yourself" books - they are alright to get you going, then the rest can be learnt through input. Works for me anyway.

This has worked for me for my main language (German), and all of my reading languages (Norwegian, Russian, French and Latin).

>>213907094
This shit is based actually and I wish the Nords, Poles and to a lesser extent, the Germs had the same mindset rather than the cucky "le English masterace" thing they got going on. Pole the other day told me he texts a family member in English and I wanted to vomit

>>213907738
Thought he'd have finished his Luca one by now.

Kauffman is a dirty, shill fraud though but he's very careful about saying what his abilities are

seriously don't learn Russian

>>213915289
Its easy. Cry harder.

>>213915289
I want to watch 20 years of Quake 3 Defrag content

>>213915158
I text and talk with my bf in English. I've mostly excluded Russian from my life, i use it only for work. I don't see any reasons to use Russian, i already know it.

>>213915289
Why ? Explain yourself Signore, I want to have some free anecdotes

>>213915729
You girl?

>>213915729
Not interested in your homosexuality tbqh

>>213915870
I am tranny.

>>213915158
i cannot think of a single situation in my day to day life where i would even be at liberty to use english if i wanted to. it's solely "the internet language" to me because it has absolutely no purpose for me otherwise. idk what you're referring to

>>213906342
I have severe ankyloglossia. I can't roll or tap r as well as some other sounds. Also yes, I don't pronounce butter or water "correctly"

>>213907094
>I said I am C1-C2 in English but had 0 MSA grammar knowledge and they were like "SEE! THEY ARE ERASING OUR HERITAGE!"
>They literally think learning Arabic makes you a "man"
They’re right. Learning Arabic does nothing for me because I’m not Arabic, but for you as an Arab to learn English to an advanced level and not know even a little of your own people’s lingua franca is cuck behavior.

I understand and respect the immigrants that keep their language and refuse to assimilate more in this particular respect, they’re more like my ancestors. My forefathers came here to make New England, not to be a good little economic unit and assimilate into Iroquois culture in exchange for a job.

>>213915253
so are all these polyglots just dabblers who let people think they're more fluent than they are?

>>213918239
Not all, no. Most of them yea. You can check that guys channel for "positive investigations" to see some of the decent ones

https://litter.catbox.moe/xox78rzsce4qz8h7.mp4
What is she saying?

>>213918239
Yeah. Dabbling is the best. I know 4 languages to a >=C1 level (reading/listening comprehension) and 1 to C2 purely from dabbling in them.

as much as i hate AI, i’m quite impressed that it manages minority languages just fine (kölsch in this case)

>>213919096
how long did that take you?

>>213913367
AI is so cute thinking that Finnish people can actually understand Swedish.

>>213919316
"Minority languages". LMAO. You speak funny German.

It’s a start. I will say, as opposed to past dabbling with other methods in other languages, this has given me by far the most confidence in the possibility of actually speaking Korean IRL, but my reading and listening comprehension is not great compared to when I did a month of Ankigooning and watching anime daily. But this is like 1/4 of the effort. I’m gonna do the next 4 months of curriculum they offer, but now I’ll be speaking to Koreans IRL and watching Korean TV as well, and starting to dig into my frequency dictionary and try some reading. I’ve been dabbling for around a year during grad school for fun, but Korean is the first language I feel really excited and incentivized to be able to use, and I’m committed to seeing it through.

Does anyone have any recommendations for a book or video series that is a barebones korean grammar crash course like Tae Kim or Cure Dolly for Japanese?

>>213920498
I'm not too sure. In general I have been learning languages for over 7 years now. I did not spend the entire duration on my proficient languages, I wasted a fair bit of time dabbling in languages out of sheer curiosity (i.e. from a linguistics point of view).
But most of the languages I know are purely for reading and input (movies, music, etc) - I think its much faster if you stop caring about output.
The language I have proficiency across the board in is German, and that took me about 3 years to get to a C2 - but it wasn't my sole focus.
I learn the basics of a language, then I can build and maintain it purely with input. I don't use additional tools - purely a textbook to get the basics then lots of input to develop it further.
Pirate all the content I need.

tl;dr in >7 years, I have learnt 5 mostly unrelated languages to a pretty decent proficiency.

>>213920676
Finns do know some Swedish though (my bf is Finn)

>>213902241
Just stop feeling sorry for yourself and fix your problems Maldiveanon

>>213920909
how does that invalidate anything i said

Is Russian the easiest Slavic language?

I don't get why koreans are so animated and extroverted compared to japanese. japan people seem kind of anal retentive

>>213907256
>Jordie has an inner Jordie

>>213908010
>>213908313

>>213911676
Explain what?

>>213919316
If it's closely related to existing languages it can very easily guess. You'll get worse results for, like, Navajo.

>>213905799
the serb is right. Just know Hallo, Auf Wiedersehen, and Danke. Might be funny if you greet people with Servus since you said you are gonna be in Austria, but then they might actually think you speak german. Would probably find it funny though having an Indian great them like that.

>>213908975
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89yLb3goapY
Knowing german and listening to Scandi langs is so weird. Feels like I should understand her, but I just don't at all.

Holy shit Jordanaon is still here. Based. I havent done anything the last like 2 months or more. I have 500 cards on my anki that Im behind. I wish I had more free time. Its either watch one show at night and pass out or do anki and watch a 30 minute spanish show and pass out. Sounds like an excuse but I wonder if I can even improve much with an hour a day if its even worth it

Language learning needs a lot more cumming cocks. Big fat twitching ejaculating penises make learning irregular verb conjugations better, and it's stupid that we don't acknowledge that fact.