Thread 214145479

I've been thinking about this a lot over the past week.

Why is it that only Western (specifically anglo) media ever discusses topics like dehumanization or multiple personalities?

The trope started with Jekyll and Hyde I think. First published in 1886. JRR Tolkien expanded on it with Gollum and Smeagol. Star wars has darth vader. Game of thrones has reek.

This trope *never* shows up outside of anglo media. it's strange. it's also a big part of what gives western media the depth that it has over other country's forms of media, it's more psychological and personal

>>214145479 (OP)
you're wrong

>>214145534
what do you mean?

>>214145479 (OP)
you're right

>>214145534
show me a bollywood film where a man is corrupted and turned into a beast. show me an anime where a man is tortured until he loses his identity, show me the k-drama where anything like this happens

>>214145479 (OP)
Berserk? Caska? It literally means shell or husk in Spanish and Portuguese. This is a common trope.

>>214145763
what happens in berserk

>>214145666
>show me an anime where a man is tortured until he loses his identity
Tokyo Ghoul and Berserk
>>214145779
don't tell him

>>214145779
Some really fucked up shit. A mercenary leader basically bargains his entire mercenary company and sell them to demons in order to become a demon himself.

>>214145839
the anime isn't worth watching? should I just read the manga?

>>214145479 (OP)
Because you mainly consume Western (specifically anglo) media.

>>214145479 (OP)
Theon should have got killed by John btw, but Game of Thrones was gay at time when it happened.

>>214145858
The new anime is okish, but I think you would rather read it. Take your time, and don't rush it because it isn't finished and things probably aren't going to finish soon, specially now that Miura died.

>>214145902
I don't think your shithole makes any media worth consuming at all.

>>214145939
That makes two of us,

>>214145938
just watched some youtube summary of it
holy fuck

>>214145933
his entire arc is about redeeming himself, it wouldn't work, he is currently on his way to the wall to fight with resurrected John against the white walkers

>>214146337
his death in the show isn't canon?

>>214146362
nuhuh, he's currently still alive in the books and trapped in Winterfell while Stannis the Mannis (best character imho) is trapped in the snowstorm outside the keep waiting to rape Theon

>>214146420
FUCK
rape Ramsey* not Theon, I'm retarded

>>214146420
is he still reek in the books

do Americans know anything? in every thread they're just asking a bunch of questions.

>>214146497
you are american too

walter white's transformation is pretty crazy too

maybe this is a more common theme than I previously expected. BUT I stand by what I initially said. I feel like media outside of the anglo/western world is more simplistic stories of good vs evil or love or battles against the bad guy. they really don't explore complex themes in the same way

>>214146484
>is he still reek in the books
yeah, man I should re-read the books it's been years

>>214145839
>>214146239
Yes, and he does that after they all risk their lives to save him, there is that too.

>>214146601
I don't think they took his transformation far enough in the tv show, it was a massive failure by the makeup department

he should've looked FUCKED UP. gray hair and old. he should be so disfigured that people can't recognize him anymore as theon

and yet he just looks... the same...

>>214146703
that's the most ridiculous cliffhanger i've ever heard about in media honestly, I will definitely read berserk when I have some free time.

so it sounds like there's some plan on completing it?

>>214146755
It looks like they do, but honestly, I like to think that Guts just gave up on that shit after Caska got better. I'm not really reading it anymore.

>>214146729
true, but costume design was the least important thing they fucked up, plot started to go downhill already in season 5

>>214146755
the 1997 anime is very pretty watch that
however that central moment you mention is the end of that anime

>>214146796
is there any psychological transormation kino out of south america?

I heard that borges wrote some good shit, also that One Hundred Years of Solitude is a very good book and tv show that I should check out at some point. what else

>>214145809
I watched Tokyo Ghoul and it depicts these topics really poorly. The main character who got tortured just became super-strong edgelord and it's an established universe rule that crazy = badass/strong which is extremely one-dimensional and goofy when you're not a kid. That's one of the main reasons why I can't get into anime since they're just really stupid and japs lack soul and therefore are unable to grasp serious topics

>>214147053
spirited away is great
I enjoyed hells paradise quite a bit

the first season of made in abyss is very good

>>214147192
No it's not I watched two season and first one was okayish and the second dropped the ball and totally forgot about the fact that they need to eat people and turned them into humans with superpowers and red eyes

>>214145479 (OP)
Sound like a you problem. Gollum/Smeagol is for example just an adaptation of norse Andvari.

>>214147716
no, those stories seem entirely different from each other actually

>>214145534
>>214145629
>>214145763
>>214146860
>>214146796
Do you guys think there's any value in media that depicts incredibly gruesome events like rape and torture

is it just entertainment based on shock and sadism? or is there more to it than that

>>214148175
Very very rarely. There's some old shock gore films that actually have a deeper point like Cannibal Holocaust and Salo, but I personally don't think it needs to be that graphic to get its point across. The most depressing movie I've ever seen has zero graphic violence scenes

>>214145479 (OP)
this come up in manga all the time
even fucking one piece has it

>>214145479 (OP)
Holy Trinity, even though not really. Lots of branches on Hinduism has gods that are just various manifestations of the one truth, plus avatars, plus some deity forms composed of two "standard" deities like Ardhanarishvara. Roman mythology, the way they intertwined their gods with those of other cultures, they was certain gods were considered faces of multiple different gods and some specific gods like Hekate. Dostoevsky's The Double. I mean, the main question is do you even know any media outside of Western media?

>>214145779
what griffith goes through is not too different from theon

>>214148268
>The most depressing movie I've ever seen has zero graphic violence scenes
what was it

>>214148341
>even fucking one piece has it
what are you talking about
yes the characters change but what character goes through complete identity crisis transformation? to the point of not identifying with their former personality at all?

>>214148390
>I mean, the main question is do you even know any media outside of Western media?
what kind of freak spends his time reading about Ardhanarishvara

>>214145809
anime like tokyo ghoul and chainsaw man aren't really like this

I guess what Reek goes through isn't just transformation, but he becomes something less than human

he becomes a slave to Ramsey, a dog, he doesn't even view himself as a man anymore

In chainsaw man and tokyo ghoul they retain their humanity and personality, there is no serious shift that happens to the MC's psychology

it's closer to peter parker getting bitten by the radioactive spider than theon getting castrated and tortured

>>214146900
>>214148175
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_alienista
This one has even a humorous tone to it. It is quite different from anything of that kind of thematic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidas_secas
This is more like on the same line as everything else, it portrays people living in some poor areas here, but it is not like there is a gradation to it in the sense of people going through a process it just shows how some people lack things that we deem human.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morte_e_Vida_Severina
There is this one too, a similar background of Vidas Secas but a different plot in a way.

>>214145479 (OP)
really ?
it exists in all cultures
demons, gods, prophets, ghosts, mischievous creatures of the woods and swamps, magical beings, the list goes on
I think that I don't really understand your post

>>214148494
kuma

>>214145666
Literally like half of all hentai ever made are about mindbreaking a woman into a permanent squealing fuckpig.

>>214150222
based (checked)
OP is a retard

>>214150464
you think I'm a retard for not taking hentai seriously as literature?

>>214150222
KEK literally this

>>214150503
you said media
that's culture

>>214150503
answer my post >>214150152

>>214145479 (OP)
>Jekyll and Hyde
The opening chapter is amazing, I keep reading it at least once a year.
The whole book is phenomenal really but the Story of the Door might be my favorite chapter of all time.
It combines elements such as atmospheric comfiness, intrigue and a sense of foreboding anxiety very nicely.

>>214150588
I enjoy reading about mythology but honestly not many stories from folklore have a lot of depth to them. they aren't really good writing compared to what we have access to today

>>214150588
anyways, to specifically answer your post:

>demons, gods, prophets, ghosts, mischievous creatures of the woods and swamps, magical beings, the list goes on

these are not really similar to characters like Reek / Theon in any meaningful way. Theon is a defeated, castrated man who isn't allowed to even say his own name or remember his own past. He was a prince that was so utterly mindbroken that he actually can't remember who he was

this trope does not really exist before like 1800.

>>214150183
>funny little guy gets transformed into a deer
>compared this guy to a character who gets raped
idk man I don't think its similar

>>214152589
Oedipus Rex, anon. This is the one that I was trying to remember. Most of those tropes have a Greek play too.

>>214152589
And there is Lavinia in Titus Andronicus too.

>>214152902
Lavinia is probably the most brutal depiction of anything of that sort. Oh now I remember of another one, there is Koroshiya Ichi, I have a decent stomach for stuff, but that manga made me fucking sick, honestly not even joking fucking disgusted.

Did you guys like this book

>>214153011
I haven't read it.

>>214145479 (OP)
Gwynplaine?

>>214153109
>Gwynplaine
I will check this out ty.

>>214145763
Berserk was created in american-occupied Japan and is set in european medieval times, doesn't really count anyway.

>>214153622
Still, it is a common trope. Something terrible happens and someone breaks down.

>>214145479 (OP)
Death Note

>>214153622
the reason I like the character of theon / reek is because he is truly pathetic

he goes from a proud and noble man to a defeated creature

griffith is more similar to walter white. he descended and is tranformed, but not into a weak and defeated version of himself. he becomes incredibly powerful.

I feel like themes of good vs evil are too overplayed. I want to understand what happens when a normal, human man truly breaks down. What happens to someone that loses in life in the worst possible ways

reek is honestly one of my favorite characters in fiction

>>214153692
Not Griffith. In Berserk, that happens to Caska. Griffith remains untouched in some way even when he is arrested and tortured, he has nothing to do with Reek. They are complete opposites, Griffith remains unbroken and won't let go of his ambitions and will go as far as killing everyone that just risked their lives to save him to immediately have his dreams, because it was not like they couldn't have it by doing it themselves, he choose the easy way.

In Japan soldiers were expected to kill themselves instead of letting themselves get captured because the expectation was that they'd be humiliated and tortured to death

Psychology is a mostly Jewish obsession but the philosophy that lie beneath psychological character studies is an instrumental part of Western culture and can be found in tragedies as early as Shakespeare, arguably earlier. In Greek tragedy for example the tragedies are always embodied tragedies. A man is killed, or he is a relative of someone he didn’t know about, the tragedy occurs to the human body. Only in Western tragedy is the tragedy a spiritual-psychological one. It takes into consideration the full trajectory of the individual’s life and all of the character inflection points that accumulate in his or her persona as a result. In Western culture, every man woman and child is an individual persona, and more importantly, one not just mere body but spirit and psyche, and spirit and psyches which aren’t just static but which change. It’s this peculiar interplay of the human person on the complicated and often unknowable trajectory of destiny, fate, and free will that we in Western culture find most compelling. Other cultures are different. There is no aspect of historical trajectory or destiny in Chinese drama for example. As a people, they don’t crave it and don’t see human lives in those terms. Only Westerners do.

>>214153011
No. I hated this book actually. I thought it was just “woe is me” garbage without a very good or coherent plot line or characters. It’s just misanthropic ranting. Interesting as a suicide note maybe, not a novel.

>>214150152
You’re misunderstanding what he’s asking about. He’s alluding to a unique understanding of the individual human persona and tragedies of historical life in which they’re contained, not mere mythologies as such.

>>214145666
Arguably Attack on Titan (Eren). I can see why people say Berserk and Tokyo Ghoul, although I don’t agree.

People often find similarities between Japanese and Western stories because the Japanese are uniquely interested in loneliness, which has some obvious overlap with human individuality and the loneliest characters in all literature from Western literature.

>>214153812
The Glory

Repetition doesn't change that the proposition is false.

>>214153686
(No answer to this post because it disproves the bullshit drivel)

>>214145479 (OP)
Faust

>>214148175
There’s definitely a line between what can really be properly considered pornographic and what can be considered appropriate art and media. When you cross that line, the value, at least in regard to what art and media are supposed to, is lost. But there definitely is a degree to which depictions of gruesome or even traumatic events have value in storytelling. These are aspects of the human experience, they’re fundamental to personalities, and they serve a crucial role in having readers or viewers identify with a story, which is ultimately one of the goals. Just how far these things can be taken and remain appropriate depend on the audience, the medium, and the time. Really repulsive and traumatizing scenes are usually not appropriate in novels, but in anime they can be okay. It just depends.

The count of monte cristo

>>214153812
I don't know, anon, I think this is a thing in practically all cultures, it is not like this isn't a widespread phenomena and basically a physiologically human thing.

>>214154005
What proposition is that exactly?

There are no Macbeths or Fausts anywhere in any other world literature.

>>214154103
>Le unique anglo

It's bullshit

>>214153783
Doesn't count imo because casca doesn't act like a character after eclypse, she just exists as a plot tool.

>>214154206
She is a character and she has chapters that are entirely dedicated to what is happening inside her head.

>>214154097
It’s not. There are exactly zero examples. First of all, tragedy as we know it is already a uniquely European phenomenon for the most part. The Arabs were at one point interested in it but never valued it culturally as the Greeks, Romans, and later Westerners did. Beyond these, no culture has ever enshrined tragedy in its story telling. Furthermore, there is exactly one and only one which understood tragedy in explicitly psycho-spiritual terms and that was the Western culture after Charlemagne. The world has no Macbeth or Hamlet other than Macbeth and Hamlet because the world has no Shakespeares other than the man himself. We Westerners understand the human experience in these unique terms of destiny, the interplay of fate and free will, the human persona, the individual, the unbounded human spirit, the psycho-spiritual trajectory of a human life through time, of history and as such understand stories in the same terms uniquely. In the exact same way it never occurred to a Roman to try to excavate the site of Troy but only to a German, it only occurred to a German to write the Mephistophelean bargain that ends ultimately in spiritual tragedy. It’s simply how we and we alone view the world. I would be impressed if you could name even a single other example other than those coming out of Japan in the later 20th century and 21st century which notably ape Western storytelling because there aren’t any.

>>214154192
How about the unique Westerner? Or are you still to invested in German self-hatred and cosmopolitanism to accept that obvious fact?

There's a legend about how Timur captured Bayezid I and put him in a cage

>>214154234
I only remember that one with dick monsters.

>>214154262
I mentioned the German Faust as an example against your claim that "anglos specifically" are oh so refined compared to everyone else

>>214154363
I never said anything about Anglos you paranoid schizophrenic

>>214154363
german media sucks ass retard
the state of your media is indefensible

the last good thing germans made was the first season of babylon berlin like a decade ago

maybe write some shit or make some tv shows before posting next time

>>214154206
And that is even the thing that I got >>214146796 from.
>>214154237
There are literally tons of native tribes passage rites that are thought exactly to teach that. I think you are being too simplistic when it comes to other people, people experience theses things all the time, that is what make them universal, this is why Shakespeare in some way is resonating most Greek tropes, because in some way or another they are the ways that people interact with each other.

>>214154394
Poems=/=media

But anyway, you’re right with Goethe’s Faust being the one big exception after the Middle Ages. Earlier they gave us von Eschenbach, the Nibelungenlied, the Hildebrandeslied, and more.

>Why is it that only Western (specifically anglo) media ever {some bullshit}
>That's wrong as evidenced by millennia of media from multiple parts of the world.
>I never said anything about Anglos you paranoid schizophrenic

>>214145479 (OP)
It's because anglos live that change all the time IRL, they become monsters at the drop of a hat.
Take Donald for instance...

>>214154314
Just cheaping out on actors

>>214154490
>scotch german is an anglo

>>214154424
First of all, I think you’re misunderstanding my claim of you think there can be tribal rites of passage anywhere to refute it. Second, the topic of Greek tragedy is interesting because in every known instance of original Greek tragedy, the tragedy is on the body. Its only in the Western tragedy long after Shakespeare is the tragedy one explicitly psycho-spiritual.
>O, full of scorpions is my mind, dear wife!" - Macbeth
is a line that would’ve made no sense at all in Greek tragedy. The closest analogue:
>“I am nothing but a corpse among the living.” - Electra (Sophocles)
Obviously maintains a sort of embodied sense wherein the tragedy is a uniquely bodily tragedy. That’s because such a psycho-spiritual realm never occurred to the Greeks. Even the word itself is projected on via translation of Greek literature. And similarly no other culture thought of such a line.

>>214145479 (OP)
Individualism.

In Western media, the story is centered around the individual and how he acts through his challenges brought to him through the story, and the choices he makes.
The idea of free will and personal choice is the basis.
In Eastern media, the focus is a lot more around how the individual fits in the bigger picture of society and whether he succeeds or fails to play his role.

For example, a lot of Western "romance" is about a bitch cheating on her man because she found a better one. She follows her individual self-interest.
In Eastern romance, almost always, the woman might be tempted into romance with another man but she lets it go because her selfish choice might ruin the life of her husband, her children, and bring shame to her relatives. The consequences that her actions might bring to other people are considered, and the focus is on what's best for everyone and social harmony.

>>214154605
Dude, the Greeks COINED the term Psyche.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psyche_(mythology)
Where the fuck did they taught that shit? Are you guys that fucking brainwashed?

>>214154468
If you read the reply you illiterate ape, you will see that while Op asked about Anglo culture I clearly explained that it was Western culture. I clarified their understanding and you accused me of affirming it.

Learn to read moron.

>>214154575
>Jews aren't Anglo
Sweet summer child...

>>214154642
But the term meant something entirely different. In Homer, the psyche was the breath of life. It had nothing to do with the thinking conscious or subconscious or even unconscious mind. Failure to understand this is a simple word-concept fallacy. We simply appropriated the term for our own language and it now refers to something entirely different than what they intended.

it's kind of strange how jews control media and yet have basically no famous media franchises of their own

you'd think they'd have made at least a couple of star wars level franchises right? they can easily fund this

>>214154605
>"Why is light given to him who is in misery, and life to the bitter in soul, who long for death, but it comes not, and search for it more than for hidden treasures?"
>Job 20:6
To be or not to be, mofo. This is a thing with everyone. Where have you studied, anon? Seriously, I'm honestly curious.

>>214154642
By the way, even as late as Aristotle the term psyche referred to the essential form of the living being. It was never disembodied mind let alone spirit. The first to use psyche to refer to a disembodied mind was Anselm of Canterbury.

>>214154698
>literally Plato's chariot metaphor
Mein Duden...

>>214154828
>Pythagoreans believed that body and soul functioned together, and a healthy body required a healthy psyche.[54] Early Pythagoreans conceived of the soul as the seat of sensation and emotion. They regarded the soul as distinct from the intellect.[55] However, only fragments of the early Pythagorean texts have survived, and it is not certain whether they believed the soul was immortal. The surviving texts of the Pythagorean philosopher Philolaus indicate that while early Pythagoreans did not believe that the soul contained all psychological faculties, the soul was life and a harmony of physical elements. As such the soul died when certain arrangements of these elements ceased to exist.[56]

>However, the teaching most securely identified with Pythagoras is metempsychosis, or the "transmigration of souls", which holds that every soul is immortal and, upon death, enters into a new body.[57] Pythagorean metempsychosis resembles the teachings of the Orphics, although its version contains substantial differences. Unlike the Orphics, who considered metempsychosis a cycle of grief that could be escaped by attaining liberation from it, Pythagoras seems to postulate an eternal, endless reincarnation where subsequent lives would not be conditioned by any action done in the previous.[58]
Yeah right... dude, where have they taught you that shit? Because I honestly did learn most of that crap using an AMERICAN book in fucking English.

>>214154620
>In Western media, the story is centered around the individual and how he acts through his challenges brought to him through the story, and the choices he makes.

>>214154734
You seem to not be understanding that when you read a translation and read into said translation an understanding of the words in contemporary local language you are not necessarily reading what the original writers and readers understood. In fact, it’s a given that you’re not. Not only are you not reading in the original language but the closest culture analogue that can be conceived of by your unique cultural understanding, but when exact words have different meanings. In Plato, the psyche is a Self, it’s a human person, fully embodied. In Augustine, the psyche is an aspect of the human self that deals specifically with memory, but is not yet the rational mind. In Anselm the psyche is rational, intellectual, almost fully disembodied. All 3 thinkers used the exact same word in the exact same spelling and alphabet but for all 3 it had distinct meanings. This is the reality of cultural understanding when it comes to language. The same reasons that each of the 3 were able to come to different understandings of the words are the same reasons we conceive of the human experience and thus the stories that speak to them differently. The notion of a detached intellect, a mind which suffers blows of destiny as if on a historical trajectory is just not something that ever occurred to the Greeks or Chinese. There is no Hildebrandeslied in Chinese. Although we can find examples that sound like they might (in our understanding and only in our understanding) speak to something kind of similar, they are in reality completely distinct. Such tragedies of the mind and human persona understood as such exists in Western literature and only in Western literature. There isn’t so much as one example to the contrary, not even in those which use the exact same words strangely enough. Failure to understand that usually arises out of a simple word-concept fallacy.

>>214154898
Their understanding of soul was not the same as yours. They understood the soul as something like a true self. It wasn’t the disembodied intellect-psyche-spirit that is observed by the Scholastics. Not even Augustine understood it this way even though he incorporated memory as an aspect of self. For them, self was a you, just like your body is a you. It’s only for the people long after them that the self is disembodied completely.

>>214154620
>For example, a lot of Western "romance" is about a bitch cheating on her man because she found a better one

>Remarriage & Desires (2022)
>Seo Hye-seung’s husband cheats, and she flips the script—joining an elite matchmaking agency to ‘upgrade’ her whole life and execute revenge.

>>214154834
Why exactly do you think that’s a refutation? This isn’t even a controversial opinion in the study of mind btw. Pretty much all scholars accept and know for certain the mind as we understand it wasn’t referred to until the Middle Ages. Some give credit to Platonists and Neoplatonists but everyone still agrees their understanding was different. That’s why the Greeks had no Macbeth and only Ajax and Oedipus. It took Westerners taking the latter from a person and making it a complex.

>>214155069
Yes, but that doesn't change shit.
>Why is it that only Western (specifically anglo) media ever discusses topics like dehumanization or multiple personalities?
How does that doesn't contemplate what you are saying in this post?
>>214155124
And in what ways does it not contemplate that?

>>214155032
>what is actually happening to a person is different, because I say so, despite not being there to fucking ask what they were thinking
He is contemplating suicide, I'm a simple person, this is dehumanizing enough for me.

>>214155187
Their understanding of a concept was fundamentally different but (in regard to an understanding of a concept) it doesn’t change shit? Now you’re not even making sense. Your question isn’t even coherent or your English failed. I can’t answer it.

>>214155251
Look if you’re ESL you’re just going to have to try harder. I have no idea what you’re saying…

>>214155308
How different is it to fucking contemplate suicide in English? Enlighten me, because to me, it is all the same fucking shit.

>>214155308
What I'm really curious is: where have you learn this stuff, anon?

>>214154947
>>214153686
death note is literally like the single anime which doesn't touch on these themes even slightly

there is no deal with the devil, there is no defeated man, what the absolute fuck are you even trying to say with this

>>214155336
I’m having a hard time following what you’re asking. Obviously nobody can contemplate suicide “in English”. Contemplation doesn’t use various languages. It’s pre-linguistic thought.

>>214155576
Comparative cultural and historical study. There are many books on these topics now.

>>214154898
>and a healthy body required a healthy psyche.
Literally a psyche that can be harmed and can get ill. How this doesn't work? Can you explain this in proper English, because I haven't studied in brainwash uni.

Nobody mentioned Attack on Titan. The psychological changes (even if only shown/implied and never stated outright) that occur in characters like Eren are profound. There are no split personalities but dehumanization that arises out of different perspectives and experiences of trauma are major themes. The characters are almost completely different people at the end compared to the beginning.

So not exactly a split personality thing but then again neither is Darth Vader.

>>214155627
No, Light changes, anon. And it is probably a metaphor for Lucifer.

>>214155701
Is he asking about psychological changes or psychological fractures though? There’s a big difference between what happens to Reek and what happens to Jekyll. The former is just a psychological change. The latter is a split personality completely. OP’s question is confusing.

>>214155738
It is probably one or another, or both.

>>214155840
Well if it’s the former then there are examples in other Western and Japanese stuff. If it’s the former I don’t know of any examples not in English.

>>214155871
That is not a common trope, even in modern media. And it can influence people too. This is probably why they don't make a lot of shit about mental illnesses, people can catch that crap by watching it. It is weird, but this is a thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_students%27_disease
Outside that book, I can't only think of United States of Tara series.

>>214154605
The post argues that only Westerners understand a human life in terms of destiny, free will, and a changing psyche. Rites of passage directly challenge this by being living, ritualistic embodiments of this very concept.

The Rite as a Psycho-Spiritual Journey
A rite of passage is a ritual designed to facilitate a fundamental transformation of an individual's identity. It is a real-life drama with a clear spiritual and psychological arc.

The Loss of Identity: The individual leaves their old identity behind, often symbolically dying to their former self (e.g., as a child). They enter a liminal state, a "nowhere land" where their old social role no longer exists.

The Ordeal: The individual endures a period of physical or psychological suffering, isolation, and trial. This ordeal serves as a crucible, testing their character and spiritual resolve.

The Rebirth: Through their personal struggle and endurance, the individual is reborn with a new identity, a new status within the community, and a deeper understanding of their purpose.

This ritual process is not a passive event but an active, psycho-spiritual journey where the individual’s free will to endure suffering allows them to fulfill their destiny within the tribe. It’s an example of a culture explicitly enshrining the idea that a person's life is a trajectory shaped by hardship and personal transformation.

And the AI agrees with me, you are just being a prick for the sake of it, or is actually a retard. Since you won't tell where you have studied this shit, I will go with 1.

>>214155627
Half the playtime is internal monologue about the individual decision making of a guy who was granted godlike power and tries to outsmart a genius rival, then goes from popular highschooler to absolute maniac. It directly contradicts what you and the brainwashed spaniard-automaton said

haibane renmei maybe

>>214155738
>>214155840

(I have to admit that my op was kind of weak. anyways.)

my main point in the OP was that themes relating to psychological transformation to the point of not being recognizable as the same person are lacking outside of western literature and media, and it's exactly those themes which make western media and literature so captivating and "deep" to me, watching as a character goes through incredible changes to their mindset to the point of not valuing something that may have once been vital to them, or killing someone they once loved more than life, stuff like that

Reek in particular goes through something that virtually no human alive goes through but is at the same time so incredibly realistic - I can imagine someone experiencing what he did and responding the way he responds, while jekyll/hyde is purely in the realm of fantasy. Reek has extreme stockholm syndrome because of Ramsey's abuse and torture. Ramsey baits him into escaping multiple times only to "save" him and abuse him again. he flays the skin on his fingers and makes him beg to have his fingers removed. ramsey's form of torture always makes Theon beg for the jailing or abuse, it changes him on a fundamental level into something more like an animal than a man

hyde is more a character that acts as a mask for jekyll's actions, and its interesting to me because I can also empathize with him and see his actions as realistic too, but honestly I shouldn't have brought up Jekyll/Hyde at all. The evil in Jekyll was always within him. it's not something that develops throughout the story (and the same is true for Griffith in Berserk too - that's why he has the Behelit in the first place). We can't really say that Jekyll experiences any serious shift in mindset throughout the story actually, aside from the realization of what a terrible situation he is in because of his actions... but it's still ALWAYS him.

>>214156450
I don't know, I have a hard time believing that you could break every single person like that, but you could probably do it with a lot of people.
>Griffith
He doesn't change at all in Berserk. He continues to be the same ambitious person, even after being tortured and people removing his tongue and messing with his legs and arms. It is literally an irredeemable character, he shows no remorse at all when he sees Guts. Nor does he care about anything when he starts building his new kingdom.
The one who changes and goes through something like Reek is Caska after the ritual sacrifice and witnessing the death of everyone, the loss of her position and being raped by her best friend.

>>214156761
I need to read it
I'll check it out and make another thread

>>214156769
Yes, it is cool, a bit too gory, but if you are ok with going through that kind of thing, it is definitely worth it.

>>214156257
> the AI agrees with me
Who gives a shit? You didn’t even make any arguments and have yet to cite even a single example to the contrary.

>>214158297
>doubles down
KEK yes, maybe teach me some English lessons or some shit some other time. Thanks, dude. I did learn a lot.

>>214158332
Do you even know what doubling down means? You were challenged to provide an example that refutes the claim and failed to provide even one example. You instead alluded to a completely different concept and asserted “an AI” agreed with you lmao.

>>214152634
kuma, not chopper

>>214158422
>I was acting like a retard before, but now I won't act like a retard anymore
Dude, come on. Teach me some English lessons now, will you please teach em some English. I can't read, read me some books, anon-sama. You are so fucking smart, mein Duden. Help a friend out.

>>214145479 (OP)
Isn't Kafka one of the first author that come to mind when talking about dehumanization ?

>>214158451
You’ve lost the plot completely

>>214158525
He is probably the most famous one. OP is just baiting and being a weirdo about this shit. Sadly this thread had some potential, but meh.

>>214158540
>>214153812
Come on, dude. This is obviously some stupid bait.
>>214145479 (OP)
So is this post. And the reason why you won't say where you studied this crap.

>>214145779
You should read it yourself but very simple explanation below.

Casca joins a mercenary company and the leader of this company is Griffith who she starts to idolize and basically worship as more than human. Eventually the MC Guts joins the band and she hates him at first. Griffith sees something special in Guts and Casca notices that which makes her mad. Eventually Guts leaves the band, this breaks Griffith, which makes him act like a fool and he gets put into a torture dungeon for a year where is mutilated. He is now a giga cripple who can't have sex, speak, walk or hold anything in his hands.
Guts returns to the band and they rescue Griffith. The band is being pursued and Casca almost kills herself. Later Guts and Casca have sex and she gets pregnant.
Some time passes and Griffith tries to kill himself but he is too much of a cripple to actually do it. He went from the most reknown commander in the continent to a cripple, to weak to kill himself. Right then he gets an offer from godlike beings to sacrifice his band in a ritual to achieve godlike powers himself and fulfill his dream of becoming king. He accepts the offer and has all his former friends slaughtered by demons. At the end of this ritual, he rapes Casca in front of Guts, which also curses the child she was carrying. Both get rescued after that and Casca turns into a mentally damaged mess who can't speak a single word.

There is a lot more to it, like all the important character dynamics and relations, but this is the very basic summary.

>>214159183
>there is a lot more to it
You covered 90% of it. It’s among the most overrated animanger’s in existence. And the art loses it’s luster after any decent examination.
I bought volumes 1-6 of the deluxe edition and shortly after began to sell them off.
One of the tougher lessons teen-me learned was the total lack of value in modern nipponese thought