Thread 216459072

Why doesn't Israel save the people of Sudan? If we let Israel be the new ottoman empire they would be responsible for the middle east instead of us and could save everyone in Sudan, Gaza etc. like the sultans of the past

>that spelling of Mesopotamia
brownest map I've ever seen

Their goals aren't that great.

>>216459149
It's always hilarious to me that Greater Israel stops at the Iranian border. Like even Jews dont want to deal with ahwaz

>>216459316
Thought it's because you niggas were pals in ancient times or something like that.

>>216459149
I sometimes wonder if people who believe in greater Israel realise that Bibi can't even convince non Haredim to settle anywhere otherside of Tel Aviv

>>216459072 (OP)
Wattasids were ottoman vassals too idk why they're not includes in these maps

>>216459378
Didn't think of it that way but border expansion isn't always about Lebensraum. Resources are also involved.

>>216459408
true
it's a shame ottomans didn't care about morocco
it could be used as a spring board to expand in western africa or through atlantic ocean

>>216459316
>>216459341
It's all part of the plan

>>216459681
>cutting Israel off at Anatolia
Uh oh!

>>216459657
Wattasids were a buffer state it's not that they did not care but avoided direct confrontation with portuguese and spanish most of the time

>>216459502
Even then, most of the Early Zionist "greater Israel" stuff was about Jordan

And early Zionist plans became kind of irrelevant as the reality of geopolitics and implementations proved, the fact that 48 arabs are practically equal citizens and that Mizrahim outnumber Ashkenazim and all the Orthodox Pandering prove that Early Zionism died very early, as pre 48 zionism wanted a country with only atheistic European Jews

>>216459378
They may not mean outright colonization and settlement, but sphere of influence or disarmament (e.g. no standing militaries)

>>216459765
>as pre 48 Zionism wanted a country with only atheistic European Jews
Well that ain't happening lol. They also wanted it to be Socialist.

>>216459765
>a country with only atheistic European Jews
vgh, what could've been

>>216459882
Not enough of them. Also didn't help Arab states dumped their respective Jewish populations at your doorstep. Although there is evidence Israel had something to do with it (Iraqi Jews in particular).

>>216459765
>land is promised by God o algo
>only atheistic European Jews
...

>>216459962
are you dumb or something?
this zionism he's talking about was a national movement like most others in the 19th century, they just wanted a nation state for themselves

>>216459992
Zionism wanted to relocate to a different continent. All nationalist movements just wanted self determination where they were already living, not in a foreign place they knew nothing about outside religious scripture.

>>216459962
You know that Judaism literally opposes The existence of Israel?

Most religious Jews just make up head Gymnastics to justify it

>>216460216
Yes and no.

>>216459072 (OP)
>Israelis
>Being benevolent
Shot yourself in the foot with this idea OP.

>>216460151
Is there a distance limit on natioanlism? Is it okay for a Pole to relocate from Lwów to Breslau? Is it okay for a Romanian to relocate from Constanta to Oradea? Is it okay for a Turk to relocate from Skopje to Antakya?

>>216460340
Nationalism has nothing to do with the individual and everything to do with the collective. Millions of people collectively relocating from their ancestral homeland of several centuries to an entirely different land with different language, culture, climate, etc., is unheard of outside of Zionism

>>216460524
What about the Crimean Tatars?
Do Italian Americans count?
Do Pieds-Noirs count?

Idk why do Arabs have to pretend that Zionism is something super evil and super unheard and unprecedented in human history:

>Nationalists use historical argument
>Nationalists ethnically cleanse people
>Nationalists destroy dialects and make up a unified modern language
>Arabs lose war
>Arabs turn to radical Islam to cope
None of these things are special. Faster you understand that Israel isn't a settler colonial enterprise the faster you will realize that you can't defeat them with terror. Nationalism can only be defeated by globalism.

>>216460748
>Do Italian Americans count?
They created a nation state in North America?

>>216459378
>>216459765
fuck you I WILL move to the golan

>>216460748
>Nationalists use historical argument
>Nationalists ethnically cleanse people
>Nationalists destroy dialects and make up a unified modern language
Yeah I agree Nationalism is fake and evil. No reason to think of Zionism differently. What's unusual about Zionism is the irredentism, not the racial violence, or fictious blood connection to any piece of land.
>Arabs lose war
>Arabs turn to radical Islam to cope
Bro why are you lashing out at me? Idgaf about Palis

>>216460801
fr though im jelly of people born there you gotta have a degree in fucking agriculture if you even want to attempt to move there

>>216459992
Yes, but based on his people's land which was promised by a God he doesn't believe in.
>>216460216
I am aware that the Orthodox Jews are against the state of Israel because the Jews were banished or something and must wait for the messiah to return, etc. etc..

>>216460821
What do you mean? Irredentism has always been tied to the worst of Nationalism. You see that in Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, and modern day Russia.

>>216460928
>but based on his people's land which was promised by a God he doesn't believe in.
the justification isn't that this place was promised to us by god, its that this is where we come from, its as simple as that, there is no god in the equation, our declaration of independence doesn't even mention god, I highly recommend giving it a read if you actually want to know the justifications and reasonings early zionists gave to the creation of the state of Israel
https://main.knesset.gov.il/en/about/pages/declaration.aspx

>>216460984
>>216460928
and if you think this is some fictitious invention, this is a good read up as well
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Shana_Haba%27ah

>>216460771
Nope. I just wanted to know your criteria.
>>216460821
What do you mean? Irredentism has always been tied to the worst of Nationalism. You see that in Yugoslavia, Poland, and Czechoslovakia. The only difference that some nationalists win some lose.

>>216460748
>Faster you understand that Israel isn't a settler colonial enterprise
It is one. It literally fits the exact bill.

>>216459316
it's because there's a river there, idiot

>>216461072
The french went back to france, and the americans went back to america, the jews have nowhere to go, you will not expel them
- Vo Nguyen Giap, Commander in chief of the vietcong and deputy PM of vietnam, to PLO officials

>>216461109
qaiks will be expelled back to hungary, eastern germany or whatever other reactionary shithole in europe needs to be neutralized

>>216461140
wtf I didn't know I have hungrian citizenship and work to extract resources from brown people in the name of the hugarian east med company

>>216461180
The Mizrahi women can come. The Haredrim will have to perish.
>>216461072
Dude you are Canadian. If you feel so bad about being a settler colonial state, then just kill yourself.

>>216460984
>>216461014
>its that this is where we come from
And Turks come from Mongolia but we don't put a claim on it as it would be ridiculous. You could've chosen any land but what you wanted was Israel.

>>216461306
Turks already had their own land, Jews didn't

>>216461366
The Ottoman Empire was ready to give any land but Israel to the Jews when Theodor Herzl asked for it.

>>216461306
you werent exiled from mongolia were you?

>>216461508
In a way we were driven out if you think about it. Westward migrations weren't only motivated by conquest but also to avoid subjugation.

>>216459681
Um, excuse me. Forgetting someone?

>>216461505
well its a good thing you guys refused cause a few years later you no longer controlled any of so it would've never meant anything

>>216461607
>cause a few years later you no longer controlled any of it
Yeah, because you later cooperated with the Brits to take it.

>>216461649
Nooooo! You can't just conquer land! Only we can!

>>216461666
Devilish trips show your sponsor...

>>216461649
well you guys weren't all that nice to the yishuv during the war and cut us off from the global markets (the US and the UK) by getting into the war, not to mention forcible conscription, higher war taxes on top of the jizya we they were already paying, not to mention forced expulsions
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Jaffa_deportation
despite all this the yishuv was split on whether to help turks and fight with them or not, Ben gurion himself was of the opinion that the jews should conscript to fight for the ottomans, under the assumption that maybe if we were loyal you would give us a state here, but overall the yishuv suffered heavily during the war, starvation, expulsion, its numbers were reduced from 84,000 people to around 56,000

>>216461792
to be more accurate it wasn't really a split, I'd say 80-90% were in favor of fighting for the ottomans, groups like Nili (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nili) were outliers for intents and purposes and at the time weren't well received by the yishuv

>>216461792
The Jews lived peacefully inside the Ottoman Empire. Sure, there is the cizye against non-muslims but that wasn't targeted at Jews specifically. Forced conscription was also for everyone (unless they were aristocrats or merchants or the like).
>1917
That was already at the end of the empire. Not when Herzl knocked at the Sultan's door in the late 19th century. Turks suffered many losses too trying to defend Jerusalem and the other Muslim holy sites. We probably weren't even fighting against you but the Arabs who were revolting en masse.

>>216461960
>We probably weren't even fighting against you
I can see your point, jews were arguably the most loyal of all ethnic groups inside the ottoman empire (at least on the surface, we were much less inclined to use violence to achieve political goals back then, the yishuv's whole shtick back then was getting legitimacy, we did have nationalist aspirations though), despite this the majority of those who were expelled were jews (8000 out of 10000)

>>216461960
Islam is disgusting. Just accept Christ.

>>216462127
I'll accept neither. Thank you very much.

>>216461579
this will happen with isis 2.0 but with the bedouins of jordan joining in

>>216459072 (OP)
what has sudan ever done for us?