Thread 49580092

The Dolls in Pseudo Paradise jacket is one of my favorite pieces of ZUNart. It's fascinating how the girl's blank expression can evoke such a wide range of emotions.
It is like ZUN's version of the Mona Lisa, you can never quite tell what she's feeling.

Tell me all about the Mt. Haku Girl.

Touhou was peaker when it was more "western" in terms of aesthetics.

>>49580196
She looks surprised to see the viewer, yet she maintains her graceful posture. The background looks like a sea of clouds.
Personally, I think it's my favorite shrine maiden ZUN has ever drawn. She has the cooler buddhist gohei and the tree branch, and is the only ZUN shrine maiden who truly captures how baggy shinto vestments are.

>>49580235
In a way, Touhou also became less "eastern".
It used to present this very striking image of a world that is both paradoxically both ephemeral and unchanging, of a land that is entirely made of illusion, the whole "Whenever it rotates, the pattern is changed like Kaleidoscope" idea. It doesn't fell like that anymore.
Things could still change for the better.

>>49580196
Do you have any headcanon of her?

>>49580584
Yeah but they're all pretty dry extrapolations of the fact that she is "training on Mt. Haku". Hakusan is a sacred mountain. It's a shugendo site, and they do training on the mountain. It's also got a shrine, and this shrine has some branch shrines. Allegedly the real life Joumine shrine that served as possible inspiration of Hakurei Shrine enshrined the kami of Hakusan.

So Mt. Haku Girl is a shrine maiden of one of the Hakusan banch shrines. She has gone to do just that - train at Mt. Haku. She might be a shugenja, despite not having the outfit for it. Her gohei has elements of both Shinto and Buddhist ritual tools - whether it is based on a real design, I'm not sure of.

Who she is, what she is training for, I don't know. All I know is her likely religious affiliation and what she is doing. Interesting question is if the Hakusan cult actually has members of the branch shrines come over to train there or not. If so, could be based on something ZUN had some personal contact with. A crush from his you who ended up doing so? Who knows...

The Hourais all have something very strange and alluring about them.

>>49580420
Because it imitiated Japonisme and Impressionism art movement which in itself influenced by ukiyo-e art school.
It itself also replaced pc-98 era aethestics, which based on 90s otaku culture.
It not something touhou produced itself you know

>>49581221
Nta, but I think part of that early Gensokyo feel comes and its Japonisme and Impressionism roots come directly from Lafcadio Hearn. Certainly some earlier works (especially the music) have that mystique of some of his best tales, now that I think about it. Not a very bold statement, I know.

>>49581611
Lafcaido Hearn huh. I need to read more of his stories, I’ve only read Yuki-Onna so far

>>49581929
He's a great author, anon. I personally recommend In Ghostly Japan, althouh I might be biased because that was my first book of his.

>>49580092 (OP)
Why does she have that nail in her dress?

I feel like the nameless girls have become more popular on /jp/ recently.

>>49584793
Absolute peak character design honestly

>>49582372
Maybe it has to do with the practice of nailing dolls to trees. The album is called "Hourai Dolls" so you would assume the girl on the jacket is supposed to be a "doll", even though she's not made of straws. There is also an example of that ritual in the album.
Alternatively, considering she is holding a cross in her hand, it could even be alluding to the crucifixion of Christ.
Lastly, it looks funny.

>>49581611
Can you elaborate on the impressionism stuff and how Koizumi Yakumo influenced it? It’s quite interesting.
ZUN definitely had a self-orientalising vibe going on, especially in the past, with Curiosities of Lotus Asia, Eastern and Little Nature Deity, Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red, Oriental Sacred Place etc. Yet at the same time it feels very Western, perhaps because of the Japonisme influence.
It really adds to the “otherworldly” feel of Gensokyo and, strangely enough, gives me a bit of nostalgia for this place I’ve never been to. Maybe the esoteric anons were right after all

>>49586970
Nta
Hearn(and a few of his contemporaries) largely introduced Japanese culture and aesthetics to the west.
I think a good explanation is that ZUN likes traditional Japanese culture and aesthetics and Agatha Christie and the atmosphere in her books, and Hearn and the impressionists are a bridge between the two.

>>49580092 (OP)
So, in the end, who was the killer?

>>49580584
She was one of the previous shrine maidens that came after the one from CDS.

>>49587274
Alice seems to be the most likely one, though even that theory isn't perfect.

She did nothing wrong.

Has anyone ever written a story with the nameless girls?

>>49590104
I want to, but I can't write, so I'm prepairing for a web-comic or maybe a stopmotion video series. I have a lot of ideas and they might even work

>>49587274
what a windowsfanonbrained reading. who was the killer. what next? gonna say it's about a bunch of people from the "outside world" ending up in "gensokyo"? gonna say that the shrine maiden was reimu? why are you even into dipp at this point. go read your print works lores or something

>>49590811
So you don't believe DiPP to be related to Touhou at large?

>>49591005
i believe that concretely interpreting it as "touhou"/"canon" or "not touhou"/"not canon" is reductive, the same goes for things like seihou or the pc98 games

>>49590104
I've had an idea for a story for a while. Maybe I'll try to write it when I have more free time and if it's good I'll post it. It sounds hard to write a story without ever addressing any character by name.

>>49591273
Is it that hard? You'll still have any epithet you can think of at your disposal. And you can just name them anyway.

>>49591490
Naming them would miss the point in my opinion. The fact that they're nameless is, at least in my mind, a core characteristic of them. Writing a story without any named characters also sounds like an interesting idea.
Using descriptive epithets could maybe help, but they tend to be overused even in normal fics, and using them too much makes the narration sound clunky.
Ideally, one would be able to describe the scene and write the dialog in such a way that the reader always knows who is talking/being described. Although the potential ambiguity could have some value by itself.
An idea I've had was a series of short stories that each have two main characters and first person narration, since that reduces everything to just subject and object.

eosd Circle Cut girl.....

>>49591768
Her smile and optimism: gone

>>49591534
Ah! I get it, I get it. I don't feel that way about all of the characters, though, just zun005.jpg and the DiPP label girl, I'd say. I think they're extraordinary people, while everyone else looks average enough to have a name. But still, your idea is pretty good, because it is more universal that way. I think outlining your interpretation too concretely could really ruin the work if you do it clumsily, you'd have to take great care. Which girls do you want to focus on?
Also, I just remembered that one of my good friends actually has written about the nameless girls, but not in english. A lot of it hasn't been published as well, just shared with friends.

>>49582372
C62 version, Reincarnation, I guess.

>>49591768
It's fun to imagine a world where she became the Shanghai Alice mascot

ZUN's coolest shrine maiden

>>49589803
That may actually be the case, depending on how similar you believe the story to be to that of "And Then There Were None" and on your own view of morality.
In Agatha Christie's novel the killer is a retired judge who invites criminals who could not be charged, including himself, to a remote island where he kills each one of them, fakes his own death along the way, then kills himself, making the mystery unsolvable. In fact, the mystery is so unsolvable that it all had to be explained in an epilogue thru a message in a bottle left by the judge, just like the DiPP mystery had to be explained by the shrine maiden, who mentions in her journal that the blonde girl is the only one that survived. Of course, she didn't kill herself in the end, so DiPP is not a one-to-one retelling. The eight honest men are at least thieves, so the full extent of their moral characters could be left to interpretation.

>>49594450
Hell yeah! Blondie's great. Her outfit is so wack, and she has a lot of personality, I think. Kind of reminds me of Kagamin...

>>49596767
I think all the shrine maidens have very striking personalities. This one's confident, Haku girl is serene, Moonlight's anti-soul is elegant, Label girl is friendly and welcoming, and the other blonde one is...Marisa-like, I don't know how else to describe that face.

An anon in the previous thread recommended I read Lafcadio Hearn's essay on Hourai, saying it describes his view of what Gensokyo represents. Well, after all this time, I did it.
Hearn's style of writing is sure very unique. The text is very descriptive considering how short it is.
That essay reveals a lot of Hearn's influence on ZUN, from the general aesthetic ideal, to particular images and even to some of the terms being used.

>>49596806
Interesting to hear. I do agree, they're all quite exceptional. Of course, I see them differently (Future Blondie's straight-laced and a bit uptight, Shugendo's casually eccentric, Antisoul's full of childish vigor, Angel Record's jolly and good-natured with a bit of a dark side, Label's a little loopy), but it's only natural when there's so much freedom for interpretation.
Though the label girl isn't a shrine maiden IMO. Looks like one but pretty clearly is not! Zun005/Angel Record might not be either, but who knows.

>>49596944
I mean, they've got nothing but their appearance. That's one good thing about them, they're very "honest" characters in a sense. You've seem them once, you know all there is to know about them.
If a girl has a red-and-white costume with bare armpits, that's enough in my view, especially when there's not much else to judge her on.
I am curious how you came to your conclusion though.

>>49596971
The conclusion that she's not a shrine maiden, you mean? Well, she's just wearing some chinese clothes that happen to match a shrine maiden's in colour.
Or the conclusion of what the girls are like? Just by looking at them - well, I mean, like everyone else. It's true, it's pretty neat how all they have to them is just an image and its title. Very compelling, very evocative and just plain fun.

>>49597125
I think nonorthodox shrine maidens get a pass, since Reimu just wears a western dress.

>>49597133
Oh? Is she? I don't recall... Do you mean, like, her th4 ending card outfits? she's always been pretty eastern-styled to my memory...

>>49597145
I was thinking of her clothes in IN, specifically. They aren't too strikingly western, but still, windows Reimu has some unusual shrine maiden clothes.

>>49597156
Windows huh

I like how DiPP is so theoretically tied to YMO, especially with their first and second albums.

>>49597571
Could you explain that a bit?

>>49597169
Traditional Japan wearing traditional western clothing is a good description of Touhou as a whole, if you think about it.

>>49596934
Damn, I just remembered that one. One of the most ethereal Lafcadio's writings, that's for sure.
I started reading Curiosities of Lotus Asia, and dumb shenanigans aside, I could see some of Hearn's influences in the descriptions.
A Japanese man built a modern national mythos thanks in part to the retelling of a foreigner of its own country. Ain't that the most beautiful example possible of successful cultural interchange.

>>49598931
Certain people need their culture to be reflected back at them to be fully aware of it. I'm not sure if I'd say that of the Japanese as a whole, but it's certainly true of ZUN.
This roundabout way of cultural transmission might have something to do with how many people in the western world say they find early windows Touhou nostalgic, even when engaging with it for the first time.

>>49598066
Most of the things I have found comes from this archived thread, it's an interesting read: https://arch.b4k.dev/vg/thread/279318232/#279735506

So I get what "pseudo paradise" is supposed to mean, but where do you think the "doll" part comes from?

>>49601556
It is more enigmatic that way

>>49601711
Then fill a whole forest with them.

>>49601730
Heheee

>>49580235
>>49580420
It used to be so magical, I remember when I played eosd for the first time and the menu just mesmerized me, then pcb for the first time and when I flew past the great barrier and into the Netherworld I was like woooow
I don't feel like that anymore
touhou is dead, it died somewhere during touhou 13 or 14 and got buried after 15
It's stupid crap now, "muh vision" there is no vision left other then hifuu maybe, non offical games such as makuoka sai somewhat retain that old magic as Zun lost it all
I blame marriage, but lets be honest, he's probably just doing it for money or legacy now or whatever, not because he cares or believes anymore

>>49601556
There was an anon a while ago who pointed out that the cross Jacketko holds could symbolize both Christianity and the wooden thing used to control puppets. In light of that, the "dolls" could be seven honest men, who were "puppeteered" by the killer, that fits well with the And Then There Were None parallels. The cross could then also refer to predestination, or a kind of metafiction, and the dolls are all 2hus. The whole story happens because it was written that way. I think that fits well with the idea of Gensokyo. Being a land of illusion, it is kind of like a puppet show. A lot of 2hus are dressed like dolls too.

>>49601871
actually, I think hopeless masquarade was the real killer here, where it not only contradicted past lore but also made it cringe.

>>49601871
I would blame it on the fact that after 11, the games' stories became very gimmicky. It doesn't feel like you're exploring a new, previously unknown part of Gensokyo, where you find a whole host of different, independent creatures, all with their own stories.
As you have pointed out, the albums have remained consistently good, so I think ZUN's still capable of making good stuff if he gives it his all, the lore notes in the latest printwork were also pretty good in my opinion.

>>49601896
For me, most locations introduced in these games don't exist
There is makai, the moon, the youkai mountian, human village, forest of magic, Hakurei shrine, sdm, netherworld, heaven, river sanzo, former hell and hell. Over. And as far as hell is concerned I wish I could forget hecatia and clownpiece exist.

>>49590811
nta, but I thought more about the most beautiful or the most cowardly with that question. There could also be some more intricate solution like one being the puppet and another one the puppeteer considering the whole doll part. But the puppeteer could also be someone from outside the group and so on... Hypothesis become endless as the kaleidoscope rotates.
>>49596544
Fair point. Also supernatural creatures punishing wicked people seems to be a recurring topic in human superstition.
>>49596971
>>49597125
We do have the comments of ZUN of the pictures though. All red-white characters are called a miko by ZUN.
Label girl fits the ZUN shrine maiden of the time and there's also a shrine maiden in the story. So she seems to be implied to be one...
But that's the problem of ZUN canon, three implications that only some see and few objective truths.
>>49601878
Wanted to say that they are being played with like dolls, but I was thinking of a similar answer and you put it better into words.

>>49602634
>Label girl fits the ZUN shrine maiden of the time and there's also a shrine maiden in the story. So she seems to be implied to be one...
I think Labelko is a shrine maiden, but she can't be the one in the story, that one is blonde. Maybe there are two shrine maidens, and she is the one at the end of the story, or maybe the last honest man was misremembering the dancing shrine maiden as being blonde.

In hindsight ZUN never elaborate on DiPP is the point, the CD was meant to tell you that horrific things are happening in Gensokyo, but by the next morning everything goes back to being peaceful, and nobody talk about it again.
After all it is a “Paradise”, and in this paradise, “nothing ever happen”. DiPP is simply just another case of missing human that will be swept under the rug

>>49601871
It's just effect of weather in early games (fog, snow, full moon). Imagine th14 happened during the thunderstorm and it will be different

>>49604048
I view it as a kind of skeleton key to the rest of Touhou.
The story is a murder mystery, a genre that relies a lot on small but meaningful details, so I think it's worth analyzing it closely. I think ZUN ignores it to add more mystique to it.
I don't know what to make of the C63 story.

>>49604145
Another example is Summer Day Dream anime. All it done was to make it feel like a summer noon then all magic had been set.

>>49601871
>touhou is dead, it died somewhere during touhou 13 or 14 and got buried after 15
I get what you mean, that's where the musical style and the visual aesthetic really started shifting, and the presentation was always a huge part of Touhou. I'd place its death at around th8, though, that's where it really started going wrong. The lunarians started the whole lore focus nonsense. Though the series still has that classic Touhou feel up to about game 10 or 11.
>I blame marriage, but lets be honest, he's probably just doing it for money or legacy now or whatever, not because he cares or believes anymore
Meeehhhh. I doubt he's doing it for the money or whatever too - he's said that he'll keep making the games even if nobody cares about them, just for himself, and I believe that. He's just a different person and therefore a different creator now. The doujin scene is pretty different now too, so it's only natural for him to evolve. I see no reason to look for someone to blame. It just so happens that his new direction is boring as hell and overall pretty shit according to our sensibilities. It is according to mine anyway.

>>49601896
>I would blame it on the fact that after 11, the games' stories became very gimmicky. It doesn't feel like you're exploring a new, previously unknown part of Gensokyo, where you find a whole host of different, independent creatures, all with their own stories.
True! Nothing to add, really. I think it's about connecting everything together. I get it, a lot of people love their worldbuilding, but it also ruins any sense of wonder or mystique it used to have. And that sense is really what Touhou was about.

>>49602634
>We do have the comments of ZUN of the pictures though. All red-white characters are called a miko by ZUN.
>Label girl fits the ZUN shrine maiden of the time and there's also a shrine maiden in the story. So she seems to be implied to be one...
Sure, if you want it that way. I never said the interpretation has no ground to stand on. No reason to search for a concrete truth when there is none, though...
>But that's the problem of ZUN canon, three implications that only some see and few objective truths.
Why in the world is it a problem? It's more fun this way, it gives you tools (girls) to play with yourself. It's why DiPP stories and Portrait of Exotic Girls pictures are so great.

>>49604048
>In hindsight ZUN never elaborate on DiPP is the point,
True, yes, what I'm getting at above. But also,
>the CD was meant to tell you that horrific things are happening in Gensokyo,
>in Gensokyo
Windows brain...

>>49604145
>It's just effect of weather in early games (fog, snow, full moon). Imagine th14 happened during the thunderstorm and it will be different
Genuinely kind of true. It's not the only factor, obviously, but the visual style and the environmental feel has changed a lot, which is extremely unflattering to the stories. Well, as I've said, presentation matters.

>>49604431
>I don't know what to make of the C63 story.
It's a series of vignettes vaguely relating to Touhou, adjacent stories and its inspirations. Not necessarily to the context in which the songs were used in the games, by the way. Legend of Hourai is Kaguya stuff, obviously, Japanese Flower seems to be Yuyuko's resurrection, Dichromatic Butterfly is what looks like Reimu's thoughts during Shuusougyoku's extra stage, Shanghai Alice of Meiji 17 is basically just the prologue to Shanghai Gen'ya with a bit of Touhou flair (the mention of magic) and so on. Some of it is more challenging to connect with anything specific, but really, I don't think each vignette is necessarily a direct reference to one specific thing.

>>49604749
Isn't DiPP stated as taking place in Gensokyo?

>>49605298
...where

>>49605369
Right at the end
>There are eight less humans in this paradise, "Gensokyo", and seven corpses were safely carried off by youkai. Gensokyo has lost honest men forever. It's just a change in the population count.

>>49605392
Ah, that's true, my bad. Though I still don't particularly enjoy the reading, and it's best to interpret it as a metaphor anyway.

>>49605406
To elaborate. My mistake was pretty dumb tho
The treatment of Gensokyo as a piece of worldbuilding, a place with clearly established rules and purposes and the like, is just pretty boring. The term's usage in th2's title is good in that sense, but in later games, it's treated with more weight and given substance, which actually detracts from the early Touhou feel. So it just fits DiPP and its vagueness better, being "a fantasy land" as a descriptor rather than "Gensokyo" as a toponym. Mind you, that doesn't make it specifically and concretely a different physical place. It's just a choice to present and treat it differently.

>>49605506
I understand your complaint. The more the term is used, the more constraints are put on it and the more concretely defined it becomes.
But wouldn't the idea of DiPP taking place in Gensokyo, the place, make both better from that perspective? DiPP has the same air and influences, and a similar aesthetic to the later games, with certain influences from the earlier games, but is distinctly different and self-contained.
Assuming it takes place in the same world as the games makes Gensokyo seem broader. It becomes a larger world, with hidden mansions where serial murders take place and blonde shine maidens and whatnot. It's no longer just Reimu and Marisa's playground, but a place where many parallel stories could, and probably do, take place.
If anything, just by how thematically divergent DiPP is from the rest of Touhou, it loosens the aforementioned constraints, at least from my perspective.

>>49605670
I like your optimistic outlook, but to me, it's just demystifying, putting a name to something fantastical and making sense of it. Really kills the dreamlike appeal.

It's a shame how often this lady is overlooked when discussing ZUN's nameless misc illustration characters

>>49604431
>I don't know what to make of the C63 story.
Whatever you want I guess. It's pretty bizarre, maybe some lines are of the killer, or the victims themselves might have also done some shady stuff in the past...
But then the text of Legend of Hourai seem to talk about Kaguyahime in the present, so it might be from someone in the past, or just someone reading The Tale of the Bamboo Cutter... who knows.

>>49604749
>Why in the world is it a problem?
I meant that's the problem trying to establish things as canon rather than with the works themselves. It's nice when things focus more on evoking than explaining, but I guess most people want established stuff.
Also I misreplied a bit since I wanted to answer to >>49596944 since ZUN called her a miko in his comment. So that seems to be clarified.
Label, Jacket, the Oekaki Girls and >>49606947 are fully left to speculation though, even if there's still the DiPP story connection.

>>49605896
The kanji usage/wordplay make intricate stuff, but at the end the name is just fantasy/illusion village/land/home, there might be some word play like utopia being written similarly but not really something you can make sense off imo.
But I guess there's some "memetic" weight to the name just like how some normal sentences/words gain implications over time.

>>49606947
She's by far the most mysterious. She has no background, her colors make the image look like an old photo, and she looks vaguely melancholic.
I think she has the least art of her too. That's a shame, she has a good, simple design.

>>49607943
>I meant that's the problem trying to establish things as canon rather than with the works themselves.
No, yeah, I get it! I just hate that the Touhou fandom thinks within such paradigms, you know. That there needs to be a "canon" with everything and all.

>>49608061
I like to call her Post-Mortem Photography-san, I think there's that kind of feel there...
There really is barely any art of her, is there! It's such a shame, she's quite easy to draw. Most of it is by Kaigen (your picrel, for example, not mine though). Kaigen's a godsend to Exotic Girls/etc fans, really. Rather nice in person as well, we have talked some.

>>49607943
>>The kanji usage/wordplay make intricate stuff, but at the end the name is just fantasy/illusion village/land/home, there might be some word play like utopia being written similarly but not really something you can make sense off imo.
No, there isn't any wordplay here. Not what could be called wordplay anyway. Gensokyo is just Fantasylandia/The Land of Fantasy/a fantastical land. There are several ways to say "utopia", the most common word with that meaning is 桃源郷 (tougenkyou). The pattern is similar, I guess, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it a proper reference.

>>49606947
The Go girl arguably has it even worse. She has a whole background, is doing something and is expressing an emotion, yet she isn't really any more popular than the other unknown ones. Maybe it's because you can't see her whole face.
The cleaning maid is the only non-shrine maiden, non-DiPP misc girl that's somewhat popular.

>>49580092 (OP)
This album is very very good

I dont even care about Zun's other works much but this album i love it

>>49608990
Hah... I remember her having a dedicated thread ages ago! Very cute girl, she has a lot of personality even though the action is pretty mundane. By the way, what does everyone think she's wearing? I think it's a puffy-sleeved under-dress with a wide collar and a vest with an upper skirt over it.

>>49608990
>The cleaning maid is the only non-shrine maiden, non-DiPP misc girl that's somewhat popular.
C62 circle cut girl tho (aka Not Actually Satsuki Rin)

>>49612114
Miss Shanghai Alice herself.
Yes, true, but she's more popular thanks to memes making her out to be more secret than she actually is. I suppose that's valid, still.

>>49612553
There is a world where this is the main cast of Touhou.

>>49613213
"What are they doing..."

>>49612114
Does anyone else think her and this oekaki girl were supposed to be the same character? I'm personally on the fence about it, though it's fun to imagine them as twin sister

>>49614841
I never thought of this before, but they do look very similar.

the unexotic girls

>>49615541
Is Beerko also included?

>>49615570
why not?

>>49615585
There's nothing wrong with it, I've just never seen her in that grouping before.

>>49615597
BEER!

>>49616502
More beer!

>>49616511
Beergirl feels more at home with Isami and other Uwabami Breakers characters though

>>49594450
Does anybody know what is written on rocks in blonde future era miko portrait? Both the talisman on the left and glyphs on the right.
>>49604749
>Why in the world is it a problem? It's more fun this way, it gives you tools (girls) to play with yourself. It's why DiPP stories and Portrait of Exotic Girls pictures are so great.
NTA, but calling Exotic Girls as dolls lends to a metaphor here. When you see a doll there are two things you can do with her: play with her, or look at her and admire. Children will probably go for the former no matter what, they are imaginative bunch that see and use toys as toys, weaving with them stories with little care for realism, internal logic or possibility of doll breaking. As you get older however, the doll is much more likely to give you a pause. With age you start knowing, spotting and caring about things you haven't before. Some of those things are rather prosaic: the doll has some owner or manufacturer, doll's clothes were woven with such and such technique, there is some plaque next to it giving few concrete information and so on. Some will care only about those tangible facts and either leave the doll alone once she had been analyzed by them, or maybe even play with her, though the doll functioning as something to observe will be treated as something distinct by them from the doll functioning as a toy. But there are those who will observe the doll and see a complete, if mysterious being in her. Those will be hesitant to take the doll and play with her until they feel that they actually know the doll and won't dispel whatever charm she holds by careless or to early touch. For those people playing with the doll can occur only as an act of enacting of what the doll already is, to do otherwise is to transgress against doll's nature and character.
Some people stay in touch with their inner child quite well and for them Exotic Girls are a perfect toy: pretty, with little constrains to them that could limit having fun, clear in their form yet almost limitless in potential uses, like a stick or a doll. Upon seeing Exotic Girls imagination of such people runs wild. Other people are deeply rational, many of them finding Exotic Girls as a mere curiosity they don't care about, some finding pleasure in using them for whatever they want, although understanding that they are treating Exotic Girls as puppets or a starting point. The last group of people is too afraid to use those girls, too afraid to even dare to attribute to those girls anything those people aren't sure lest they are mistaken.
Dismissive people are of no concern, but among the three remaining groups I don't think any of them is particularly more correct in their approach to Exotic Girls. For the child-like people the more information there is, the worse toy Exotic Girls become. For rational admirers, facts are certainly interesting and might prove useful, but they can live without them. For entranced people facts are of utmost importance, they know and accept that they are dealing with mystery (for those girls are nameless, after all), but they wish to grasp the mystery of Exotic Girls as closely as they can, to understand those girls with whatever little knowledge could be gleamed about them. Second and third group like facts (although they ascribe different weight to them) and together they probably outnumber the first one, so in the end having answers becomes the default positive state, while lacking them is considered detrimental.
Now that I think of it, this probably could be said about Gensokyo and Touhou at large, too. Most people don't care, including even those knowing Touhou (infamous tertiaries). Some wants whimsical place to feed their imagination, some want to know more about the setting in the same way like with any other piece of fantasy, some want to know as much as possible, trying to grasp the truth.

>>49580092 (OP)
A lot of people talk about the cross she's holding, but I haven't seen anyone bring up the beads around it. At most, I've seen them represented in some art of her.

>>49617520
Yes, naturally. Fans have their approaches, fans ascribe different value to facts, or "canon", and no approach is truly invalid, as far as literary interpretation goes. There's no such thing, ontologically. But... It's not exactly sound to put this much emphasis on constructing a thorough truth with something as laconic in its brevity as Portrait of Exotic Girls, or something that revels in its vagueness as much as Dolls in Pseudo-Paradise, is it. It's demystifying, as it's already been said above, it's tearing apart the skillfully crafted environment laid out before you. And if you're going to do that, why seek out something mystical in the first place? There's just no reason for this approach to prevail when it comes to such works, it's almost counterproductive. And if we are to speak of dolls... Surely, such dolls can't hate having visions imposed onto them, so that fear is pointless. It's what they're made for, is it not? Well, maybe I'm just the childlike type to the core, but... Why try and discern the truth when there so clearly is none? Or are they just playing pretend like that? Basically, that sort of windowscanonlore-type approach to DiPP of all things is just plain weird! People can do it if they want to, sure, there's no point in upholding a specific approach as "correct", but it's so weird that people who value facts and theorizing as opposed to interpreting take interest in that early and vague part of Touhou/adjacent works.
I also think it's lame... Which is obvious, I guess. I guess that was my actual point. Whatever

>Does anybody know what is written on rocks in blonde future era miko portrait? Both the talisman on the left and glyphs on the right.
https://nrr08.com/mirai.html <- Here is a blog post on the topic, though there isn't really a definitive answer, as it's difficult to tell. Maybe you can discern something based on that.

>>49617923
Doesn't this ignore authorial intent? Sure, the story of DiPP is rather minimalist, but still there is a clear narrative being presented. It's worth asking what narrative ZUN had in mind when he wrote the story.
The fact of the matter is, DiPP is numbered in the same sequence as the Hifuu albums, gets referenced in the early games, though vaguely, and the C63 release references concepts and stories from the early games. There is clearly a connection, and it's worth asking what that connection is and how it affects both the album and the overall Windows story.
The only difference between an interpretation and a theory is that the theory provides a framework. An interpretation still needs facts to interpret. What would even be the point of interpreting a story that has no facts? The mystery of the album comes from the fact that there appears to be an answer in it, so you analyze it to see what the answer is. Sure, the answer isn't concretely stated, and you can hold to the interpretation that the answer is purposely kept hidden, I hold to that interpretation, but for that you still need to accept that a concrete answer is expected. Basically, the mystery box approach to storytelling doesn't work if you write on the box that it is empty and I do not believe that is the case in DiPP.
I think the story is worth treating as a story, not only a thought experiment or aesthetic statement, although those interpretations also have some value.
You can engage with DiPP however you like, but finding it weird that people try to decode the story is like finding it weird that some people follow the instructions when building a lego set.

>>49618886
To clarify: I think DiPP is uniquely fitted for engaging with it in multiple ways. You can choose to not interpret it at all and just take it for what it is, you can interpret it as a stand-alone work or you can interpret it as a part of ZUN's works, you can interpret it aesthetically, thematically, as a story, or you can develop a headcanon around it. Of course, you can do all of that with all of ZUN's works, but I think DiPP is uniquely well-fitted for it.
I think you lose out on a lot by writing off a whole field of interpretation as weird.

Speaking of aesthetics, which nameless girl is the cutest?

>>49618886
Authorial intent doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. The author's literary interpretation isn't any different from the reader's - unless you're trying to prove something in court, but that's forensics, not literary analysis. It's not that it must be opposed, and not even that it shouldn't be taken into account, there's just no point in treating approaching it as the only ultimate goal. Texts being machines for generating interpretations aside, it's too fickle of a thing to grasp anyway. ZUN could have had anything at all in mind, and that would be none of our business anyway, would it? I never said that the story has no facts either! Even playing fast and loose with the source material still has to be based on something. Those facts are what the text itself is, at face value, it's not an empty box at all. Everything else is interpretation and what you choose to factor into it, and there is no one true interpretation, naturally. You can pretend that there is a kind of truth for your own amusement, but it's not really the kind of work that calls for it, which is what makes that kind of approach quite odd... It's understandable and even pretty intuitive to restrict yourself to a specific interpretation with works that pose themselves as having thoroughly developed imaginary worlds with concrete limitations, but with something like DiPP, insisting on it is quite odd...
>The mystery of the album comes from the fact that there appears to be an answer in it, so you analyze it to see what the answer is. Sure, the answer isn't concretely stated, and you can hold to the interpretation that the answer is purposely kept hidden, I hold to that interpretation, but for that you still need to accept that a concrete answer is expected.
I don't see it as a mystery to be solved. To me, there's no answer because there's no question, it's just a statement. Must be the fundamental difference here.
>You can engage with DiPP however you like, but finding it weird that people try to decode the story is like finding it weird that some people follow the instructions when building a lego set.
Does it really have anything that can be likened to instructions so directly? I don't think it does. It's fine to infer something like instructions from what's there, of course, if you want to, but it won't be particularly objective.
>>49618886
Yeah! All of that is true. I just don't get why this word-of-god approach to authorial intent prevails even in discussions of older and vaguer Touhou works! It's understandable with the modern games, even if they aren't exactly hard worldbuilding-focused, but DiPP, Exotic Girls, PC-98 games? Seems stifling.

>>49620411
Maid-san is super kyute. She has the most personality, I think, and that personality is super kyute.

>>49620993
The reason I believe authorial intent is beneficial here is for the very reason that ZUN rarely comments on DiPP. The story, music and characters all came from his head, but because he didn't comment on everything, we can have fruitful discussions on what he might have been thinking with each detail. Otherwise, we have very little to anchor the discussion and it just devolves in "I feel X about the story", "well, I feel Y about the story". Of course, it isn't a perfect method, but it at least gives all the members of the conversation the common goal of approximating the original meaning of each detail. Talking about just how it makes you feel a priori adds to the conversation, but it can't work by itself.
This method is used in literature. Take Finnegans Wake, which is almost impossible to read and understand without knowing about the author. Obviously, that is an extreme example, but the principle applies to some degree to any literary work.
We already do this when talking about Touhou all the time. Why do we talk about Lafcadio Hearn and not Basil Chamberlin? It's because ZUN gave us a lead. If he had given us more, it would have been lame and there would be nothing to interpret, if he had given us less, we would have nothing to go off of. You can't make a painting only with negative space.
>it's not an empty box at all
The box is a mystery and the thing in it is the answer. The box is most often empty, that's not a bad thing, but in a good story you should make that as hard to notice as possible. I think DiPP does that well. Making a statement like "there is obviously no correct answer" could be true, but makes the story sound worse.
>I don't see it as a mystery to be solved. To me, there's no answer because there's no question, it's just a statement.
DiPP is written in the style of a mystery novel, based on a mystery novel, from an author that references, and tries to include in his other works elements of, mystery novels all the time. It also has the features of an aesthetic statement, it has a very divergent aesthetic coming from its combination of traditional Japanese aesthetics and those of golden age detective fiction. As I said before, you get the most out of the story if you engage with it as both a mystery and a statement.
>Does it really have anything that can be likened to instructions so directly?
Maybe I chose a bad metaphor. I didn't mean that there are instructions. It was talking about using a more systematic method to interpret the work.
>It's understandable with the modern games
The modern Touhou games are just as vague and mysterious. The are about a cast of characters exploring a part of Gensokyo that they haven't seen before, meeting people they haven't met before, to solve an incident who's cause they do not know initially. They are just not as well-written.

What do you guys think about the YMO findings on 49600851 at the 4chan archives? There is also a related theory that some Touhou songs (Example: Legend of Hourai) might be somewhat based on Tong Poo which I heard might be based on this song from pic related: https://youtu.be/msnVIat-16Q?si=CH_hv0f2_1FLTgPz
It's a bunch of speculation at the end of the day but I find this type of stuff really interesting.

>>49621026
I think I agree. She has a simple design, relative to the other nameless girls, and is not a shrine maiden, so she stands out.

>>49622140
Cleaning maid posting ?

>>49622246
You love to see it!

>>49622466
Cute Maid! So cute, that she stopped giving a fuck about this thread!

>>49621238
Well, that's what you get out of it, so why not. It's entirely subjective, though, and should only be treated as such. Like, sure, it's a mystery to you, and you enjoy solving it, but to me, it's the impression of a mystery, and I see it as a kind of dream sequence. Some third reader/listener might see it in some third way, and we'll both find it pretty lame, I'm willing to bet, and we'll have no problem stating it openly, but that person will be making the most of it within that third paradigm of thought, and that paradigm is equal to any other.
>Otherwise, we have very little to anchor the discussion and it just devolves in "I feel X about the story", "well, I feel Y about the story". Of course, it isn't a perfect method, but it at least gives all the members of the conversation the common goal of approximating the original meaning of each detail. Talking about just how it makes you feel a priori adds to the conversation, but it can't work by itself.
Well, why can't it? It's pretty fun to share ideas, it helps you expand and refine your own, if anything. There's really no need to have this one specific common goal of approxmating the original meaning as opposed any other goal. No method will be objectively superior, because it depends entirely on your goal, and different readers' goals can be different.
Do you think that putting less value on authoral intent means willful ignorance or something like that? It's not like things like ZUN's outside influences are going to be ignored on principle with a less systematic approach. It simply doesn't put authoral intent above anyone else's, which, well, it really isn't, because it's all fiction, and no part of it is more or less real just on the basis of who's imagining it. Birth of the reader and all.
Basically 1) All interpretations (among with the author's) are equal unless you set out to uphold a specific one artificially 2) That equality doesn't make them all equally appealing to any given reader 3) Expressing that an interpretation is unappealing doesn't make it "untrue". Cause I'm kind of rambling... so, to put it consicely
>You can't make a painting only with negative space.
By the way, you can. I get what you're trying to say, but you very much can. That's way beside the point though, haha, I don't really mean it as a continuation of the argument.

>>49622246
Give it baaaack...

>>49600851
Sorry, I was thinking reading and responding this before but took my sweet time for time.
Thanks for sharing this as well as the anon that posted that despite the state of the rest of the thread.
The kanji play is absurdly fantastic, guess 弾 got into the words projectile and playing an instrument via the bow as weapon and the bow for playing instrument.
Some melodies of YMO also have this arcade game early home console feeling.
Guess I also have a few more movies to watch in my evergrowing list as well as having to actually git gud at Japanese and play megaten and get more into Asian history...
>>49622028
I hear more of Legend of Hourai there than Tong Poo... which is funny.

>>49608385
I was more thinking of 理想郷　〜 ideal land
which is just changing the kanji of "phantasm" by reason/logic, fitting for both the wondrous nature of the place as well as with later Touhou.
Not sure how much is intentional but also seeing how the last kanji appears in words for nostalgia and hometown.
郷 is used for the countryside and can substitute 里 (village) making it seem pretty rural.
郷 also has the radical of 邦 of native/Japanese(although those two being linked is pretty normal considering the language I guess).
Could further link it with ZUN getting inspired by his hometown perceived by his younger self, as well as make Gensokyo the "hometown of fantasy".
Some funny coincidence is 異郷 makes a strange/different land since people get spirited away, but that might be a stretch.
Buuut I'm just someone who knows a few things about Japanese who might be overthinking after reading the wordplay of >>49600851

>>49617520
The talisman seem heavily inspired in the Fulu papers which most popularly appear in the yellow/red colors in Jiangshi looked for both things but no specific charms seem to coincide when I searched for 符籙(Fulu) and キョンシー御札 (Jiangshi ofuda). But maybe you already knew that...
All I can parse of the kanji is ニマ亡巾 (mani deceased cloth) which seems gibberish.
But I'm not sure if it's some sort of random corruption of kanji+katakana to give a feeling of old+modern getting mixed into the charms to give it a "futuristic" feeling.

I was about to pipedream a bit on what the three tomoe/souls shaped circles might be, but then I remembered that the turrets of HRtP looked like that.
So it might be 𑖂 from siddham script https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddha%E1%B9%83_script the things to the left of the circles also could be siddham... maybe but I can't match any other symbol.. 𑖝 could be if anything the one in the middle or other ろ looking things.... Might also be some other mantra script if any but I have little knowledge on this scripts.
The ofuda mark in the stone could be 寸 if it isn't mirrored, but if not it could be a 七 and the next one feels like 工　or the top of 天 maybe...
>https://nrr08.com/mirai.html
>喜多川
I see the river but the first two feel off, the second character feels more like う or something. But I'm not a native nor good with Japanese and that "grass cursive" way of writing kanji drains my sanity.
But I guess Kaigen likes that answer going by picrel

tl;dr: idk maybe siddham mixed with kana and kanji.

How's the coffee this morning?

>>49623774
Today's breakfast tea is a sugary poison.

>>49623442
On the topic of "Utopia" - while most of what's described in the linked archived post looks to be intentional kanji-play, your observations with 郷 are basically just drawing parallels between a cluster of worlds with similar meanings. To a japanese native, those similarities are too obvious and straightforward to make it any sort of wordplay - the 郷 at the end is just "-land" with these terms, really. Though 理想郷 really does go well as a foil to 幻想郷, doesn't it? It puts more emphasis on the "ideal" rather than the illusionary and fantastical. It's almost surprising ZUN's never played with those two words.

On the topic of the future blondie - true, they're either fulu talismans or ofuda. I presume they're ofuda, because she's a shrine maiden, haha. Both can be yellow with red writing. By the way, all three seem to have the same writing - compare the top part of each one. Parsing them yourself from the ground up with no specialized knowledge is a tall order, especially if you assume they're fulu papers - they vary from sect to sect, often contain non-hanzi and are best to just compare to well-known existing patterns, like here http://www.gujicanglan.com/895.html. If they're ofuda, which they most likely are, ZUN may have invented his own. I doubt that, and also doubt that he drew up something random to resemble a talisman, but I wouldn't really be discounting that either. Tough.
As for the writing on the stone, the first one looks a lot like stylized 神, doesn't it? Though the only 神〇川 I can think of is Kanagawa, which... Would that make any sense? Seems random.
By the way, the talisman isn't going to have kana on it. The stone might, though.

We've had an anon say that naming the girls feels like missing the point, which is reasonable, but what does everyone else think of naming attempts, like this one? Have you tried it yourself?

>>49630693
I don't know what to say about these. I find it a bit weird to associate any of them with a name, I think I've trained my brain to see them as inherently nameless.

She's sleeping

>>49633543
These names in particular aren't really my jam... But naming in general depends on the girl, some have a more approachable air and are easier to name, some are more mystical. Though names are arbitrary either way.

>>49637646
This made me think, what abilities do you think they each have?

>>49637871
Windows era omake-style profiles don't really fit those girls, I think... Though it's a fun question for anyone who isn't bothered by it.
Antisoul-chan is probably someone of extraordinary power. Looks powerful. Hakusan-chan looks more mentally and physically than magically strong, considering she's doing shugendo and all. The blondies seem more socially-oriented, probably not the types to have flashy battle abilities.

I like to think the Cleaning Maid was the point where the High Gothic shift in ZUN's works started.

>>49645393
Jacketo a Cute!

>>49645443
One of ZUN's most huggable designs

>>49648062
Hug Jacketo! Pamper Jacketo! Cherish Jacketo!

>>49649168
But lets be honest, she is waaaaay out of our league

>>49608214
I understand some statements going against what's considered canon can irk people and making them feel like they should correct them especially if said statements are claimed to be canon by the poster (although I guess people put canon in some post just to bait).
But a lot of things are up to the readers imagination. Some basic stuff is said and repeated... But even then you could label those things as misconceptions and so on, adding that most people see a translation, pointing up stuff like specific wording seems even more in vain.
But people got used to seeing with clarity of daylight even past the twilight I guess.

>>49625698
I would say that the kanji would have a meaning a bit in between homeland and land considering it appears in words like 帰郷、故郷、郷土、郷愁、望郷、懐郷　where it seems to have that homeland part. For rural part... well land is also usually rural kinda... But yeah I'm probably not qualified to say much with my understanding of the language.
>It's almost surprising ZUN's never played with those two words.
Maybe it's supposed to make a reference to it being a place different to the outside world which is "ideal" and a place of reason after the Age of Enlightenment. It really fits Windows Touhou... Even if the name was first used in LLS. But idk I still have to get to read all of Touhou in Japanese once I have a decent level.

The talismans.... well I mean they seem to be ofuda styled as jianshi talisman(fulu). Since searching for jiangshi talisman gives results closer to that. No clue if the "rope lines" are just a Japanese thing since I haven't seen them in pictures of chinese fulu.

>just compare to well-known existing patterns
Good idea! I got this from searching standard jiangshi talismans:
勅令陏身保命
移形換位
速去速来
勅令
急急如律令
斜
梱仙縄
The last one 令 could be in cursive at the end of the talisman with that vertical line... But they seem to differ in other characters.

> By the way, all three seem to have the same writing - compare the top part of each one.
They all seem to have the "rope" (梱仙縄(?)) but the kanji part seems to differ: The one in the floor seems to start with 二 or similar while the one in the stone circumference seems more like 寸 or 七 at the start. The pocked one is indecipherable to me.


>As for the writing on the stone, the first one looks a lot like stylized 神, doesn't it? Though the only 神〇川 I can think of is Kanagawa, which... Would that make any sense? Seems random.
It could be the name of a place/region, doesn't seem too odd imo, although only 川 seems clear to me. The first character to me looks more like something with an horizontal line on top covering most of the kanji and with two drops like in 凍.... But idk the other part of the kanji seems to be like a toori or a 円. Other kanji I found kinda similar are 浦 and 満 but they don't seem to really fit.
And I'm at a loss with the center one... still looks like う to me.

>By the way, the talisman isn't going to have kana on it. The stone might, though.
I just jumped to the assumption that the "future era" might make the miko use futuristic ofuda with kana, kind of a mix between modern and old. Just like the talisman seem to have a Chinese flavor to them(or idk maybe some Japanese ofuda are also yellow-red)

The dumb lazy maid forgot to bump the thread!

>>49640218
High Gothic? Could you elaborate? I would be interesting to hear you out.

>>49650248
>But yeah I'm probably not qualified to say much with my understanding of the language.
True, it's almost like a slogan to the post. Sorry, I mean: it's great that you have enough confidence in your ability to do such research. But really, you're overcomplicating things with 郷.
Why are you searching for jiangshi talismans specifically? Why not お札 and 符箓? Like, pull it up on wikipedia, switch the language to japanese/chinese, look at the sources... Wouldn't that be more helpful?
>The talismans.... well I mean they seem to be ofuda styled as jianshi talisman(fulu). Since searching for jiangshi talisman gives results closer to that. No clue if the "rope lines" are just a Japanese thing since I haven't seen them in pictures of chinese fulu.
It's a thing on fulu - unless I'm somehow misunderstanding what you're referring to, but if you mean, in layman's terms, that twisty thang, it's present in both.
>They all seem to have the "rope" (梱仙縄(?)) but the kanji part seems to differ:
Maybe they indeed are different, but I highly doubt there is a point in making them different and then covering up the parts that differ.
>The first character to me looks more like something with an horizontal line on top covering most of the kanji and with two drops like in 凍.... But idk the other part of the kanji seems to be like a toori or a 円. Other kanji I found kinda similar are 浦 and 満 but they don't seem to really fit.
Uuhhhhh well here I've mirrored it 'cause the writing is probably mirrored. I don't really agree with your take, I don't see that at all. I don't have better answers than the aforementioned Kanagawa though
>And I'm at a loss with the center one... still looks like う to me.
I can see why someone could think that, and I did say that the stone might have kana on it, but it's extremely unlikely that any character here is. It's clearly at least three strokes, it's more apparent when mirrored. う does not get written this way.
>(or idk maybe some Japanese ofuda are also yellow-red)
Yes, some indeed are. They get drawn this way somewhat often. Though, crucially, this is japanese shrine maiden, so what she has is probably ofuda. I thought that you had some sort of other reason for assuming they're fulu, but if it's just the colour for you, well, they're ofuda.

It's real!!

>>49655413
Starting with DiPP and EoSD, 2hu dresses became more elegant, frilly, and generally overdesigned.
The stories also became more grandiose and dramatic, sometimes even veering into horror. That's especially clear in the Hifuu albums, which often leans into cosmic horror.
The music also gradually became more traditionally western, mostly using the piano and trumpet, although it never fully abandoned the digital style. An early frog leap in the music is Remilia's theme, with its reference to Beethoven. Interestingly, the DiPP music doesn't fit into that, being way more experimental.
The nameless girl drawings gradually became more detailed and the clothing became more frilly. The cleaning maid is the first one you could really call "western" in theme, so it's the first one I'd call "gothic".
It's interesting how you can connect these various influences. The "Kwaidan" are ghost stories, Lovecraft was very much influenced by Hearn's writings, and Agatha Christie is often accused of orientalism, although in her case it is about the Middle East, not East Asia. I think the combination of all of these distinct but connected elements, combined with the child-like air that has been present since the second game creates the very distinctive yet cohesive aesthetic that everyone recognizes but many have a hard time identifying.

>>49656931
Was it ever particularly eastern before? Games 1 and 2 are the most japanese-like, and even they have a lot of western-style influence with Makai in th1 and the tanks and the magicians in th2.
>and generally overdesigned.
Do you mean ornate? They're pretty sufficiently designed for what they are, ZUN may be kind of bad at drawing, but he's generally good at character and costume design.
>The nameless girl drawings gradually became more detailed and the clothing became more frilly. The cleaning maid is the first one you could really call "western" in theme, so it's the first one I'd call "gothic".
I sort of get what you mean, but they're all pretty detailed! Zun005/Shinto Land Fantasia is the simplest one, and even she has a fair bit to her. The ornate quality is immediately apparent once you try to dissect what they actually appear to be wearing.
Also, it's true that the maid is the most western-themed, but the mikos aren't wearing japanese clothes at all. If anything, their outfits look like an oldschool lolita take on a shrine maiden's clothing.
>I think the combination of all of these distinct but connected elements, combined with the child-like air that has been present since the second game creates the very distinctive yet cohesive aesthetic that everyone recognizes but many have a hard time identifying.
Yeah, true. Though "childlike" isn't a really good word to use here, is it... It's just comedic and light-hearted. The tone is mainly inspired by the works of Takemoto Izumi, which I wouldn't call child-oriented.

>>49660415
trousers Jacketo, trousers Jacketo

>>49655413
>jiangshi talismans specifically?
Closest one to the ofuda in the pic, I also looked for 符籙 since I was under the assumption of it being inspired by what a Japanese would think Chinese fulu look like.
符箓 and 符籙 returned too complex looking ofuda so I went with that.
And お札... Well I looked for 御札 since with the お mostly get results filled with bills (full kana goes back to the spiritual items), but I haven't seen any with the drawn rope and the matching colors.
So that's why I went with キョンシー御札　but it might just be a coincidence.
> but if it's just the colour for you,
Thought the color might be it for ZUN considering how he considers Red-White to be the most Japanese colors and how he mostly puts ofuda as red and/or white with Reimu.
Considering his topics being a bit more "international" around those times I thought that it might be.... but mostly just a case of them matching better I guess
But I guess there's Anti-Soul also has a yellow-red ofuda... So I'm probably wrong.

>Maybe they indeed are different, but I highly doubt there is a point in making them different and then covering up the parts that differ.
I also would assume the ones in the pocket and the floor to be the same, but the "fossilized one" has a vertical line. So it seems something different or at least it seems written by someone else since the stone ofuda could have been written by a previous miko. It could also be a case of different kanji being used due to time like 二 vs 貳 (but 貳 has too many strokes to fit)

>I've mirrored it 'cause the writing is probably mirrored.
Might as well have post the mirrored picture also including the ofuda of the page.
I can't agree nor disagree to much with you because... Well the jpg artifacts are making it hard to get a clear view. I'm not sure if there are tiny lines butchered by the compression or what's going on.
> It's clearly at least three strokes
I didn't really think it's an う but an う (or a ラ) being it's general shape. The three lines being positioned like a flame symbol instead of like 彡 makes it weird imo (can't really see the 多 either)

>>49661678
Silly little girl and her wacky stones

>>49630693
Guess they kinda fit but it's odd seeing them with names. Not sure why go playing girl is swallow tho.

>>49591273
>It sounds hard to write a story without ever addressing any character by name.
We have Genji Monogatari as reference I guess:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Tale_of_Genji_characters
>The characters of The Tale of Genji do not possess birth names. Instead they are assigned sobriquets derived from poetic exchanges
>from the particular court positions they occupy
So yeah... nicknames and titles might be the way to go if you want to write a more or less normal style.

>>49637871
I think most miko will have just miko skills. Maybe mt.Haku girl would have some buddhist monk things going on and anti-soul some things relating to spirits/ghost/the deceased or similar.
The others feel like they would have some non-battle abilities similar to Merry, Renko, Rinosuke, Akyuu or Kosuzu.
Oekaki #1 feels like she would have some magic/sorcery tho. But I might just say that because she reminded me of the orbs Marisa uses. But she also has some hermit/celestial feeling to her so maybe hermit arts or similar.

>>49671919
Jacketko is flying!

>>49673997
I think that's Reimu... maybe not

Technically, this Reimu is also Portrait of Exotic Girls. I think this, among with Top001.jpg, is the best Reimu look, it's such a shame that ZUN didn't stick with it. She looks like the unnamed mikos, the outfit is structured similarly. If Reimu looked like this now, she would have at least been a reminder of the 幻想空間 era. Would have been a beautiful world to live in.

>>49674612
Same, would have been nice to see her with the miko outfit changing a bit every game instead of the sailor school uniform like thing she got.
Her Seihou, Zun000.JPG and Zun001.JPG outfits also look fine, but I guess I just prefer the one's with the same color distribution of a traditional miko I guess.

>>49617596
Wonder if those are some buddhist rosary with just beads or if they are attached to the cross and it's a rosary with a huge cross.
They look separate to the cross to me, but who knows what ZUN was thinking when drawing her.
>>49673997
Guess it's the ability she got when she stopped being human...

>>49655475
Does the real cleaning maid also wear a mobcap?

Let's smoke opium

They're real...

>>49686369
I don't think that's a good idea...

>>49686369
cleaning maid joins tha party!

>>49686369
I'm here for it!

>>49686369 Ehehe

>>49649183
That's probably for our own good.

This girl looks so wacky. She's very decorated with her accessories and detailing, but doesn't have much sense to the way they're applied. It makes her look a little childish, like she wants to dress up and look fancy, but hasn't figured out fashion yet. She's wearing lipstick as well, if you squint! And her nails sort of look like they're painted a light pink colour. That ornament attached to her hat is pretty wacky as well. It's so weird, kind of looks like a dead insect. Makes you wonder if it's some kind of protective amulet that she's obligated to wear.

>>49693449
I hadn't noticed the amulet on her sleeve until now.

>>49649183
You never know, maybe your coffee will be sweeter than usual next morning...

>>49701199
... im scared of women.... so i wont know and i have no idea what i can talk about with them.... so yeah

>>49702820
Yeah, and I'm scared of serial murderers. The point is that you should face your fears, anon.

>>49702820
>>49702979
The things you are scared of are always the hottest...

>>49702820
>i have no idea what i can talk about with them
Jacketko looks very fancy, I'm sure she would nicely and politely converse with you on any subject.

>>49701199
sweet sweet coffee, making me all sleepy.

lmao dude

I can't bump the thread. Looks like it's going back to Hourai.

emergency bump in case something bad happens again, not letting one of the last few decent threads die just yet

>>49721431
Cleaning maid, my hero.
>>49721335
Hourai is empty, all the dolls are here.

What's your favorite DiPP track?

>>49722340
By itself, probably the third, but I usually listen to DiPP as a whole album and treat it like a complete track by itself, the music fits really well together, so it feels pretty natural

>>49722340
I like Forest of Dolls a lot, it feels the most unique.

>>49724440
It has the best title. I'd love to be in such a forest.

>>49724446
It fits in a very strange way with the accompanying story.

>>49724469
It has my favourite C63 story for sure. Dichromatic Butterfly might be the second favourite - it's kind of funny.

>>49722340
The first track sounds very unique, it feels like a whole story in itself.

Wait. That's wrong. Oh no. Disregard that.

>>49729009
Cute Zanmu!

>>49729706
Newhus aren't cute. They are wrong.

>>49730924
What is she doing with that cloth? Is the maid pretending to be a shrine maiden now?

What goes on in Hourai?

>>49733885
This

>>49738278
Very cute, I want to go there now.

>>49688843
first time I see someone other than me post this artist!
>>49693449
Moonlight Antisoul was it?
Her puryfing rod is pretty interesting, it has those red beads that Rumia, EoSD Circle Cut Girl and Oekaki girl has, it really does look like an insect with those curling string that look like antennas

>>49742899
true. she's kinda buglike herself...

>>49731333
It's how she entertains herself when she has nothing else to do.

>>49745241
>when she has nothing else to do
Other than her job, I presume.

>>49749430
There is a universe where this is Touhou 6.

>>49752048
Right next to the universe where this is Touhou 6. What wonderful worlds.

Ever since I found out about DiPP I thought it was interesting that Alice had a doll named Hourai.

>>49753637
I think its supposed to be more of a reference to the Hourai elixir, but there is also another detail with one of Alice's doll's name.
The quote "Whenever it rotates, the pattern is changed like Kaleidoscope", which was ZUN's sort of motto during the period when he made DiPP, EoSD and PCB, is paraphrased from the prologue of a novel called "Shanghai Genya", about a japanese man in 1920s Shanghai, hence the Shanghai doll and Shanghai Alice and maybe also the references to opium in DiPP.

>>49756235
>a novel called "Shanghai Genya", about a japanese man in 1920s Shanghai
He's half-japanese half-chinese

>>49759467
The most underrated exotic girl, honestly.

>>49759467
The background to her image really captures the imagination. She truly looks like she's in Hourai.

>>49770368
Kyute, actually

It's crazy how much personality you can give a character just by giving her a mob cap.

>>49780787
The best shrine maiden imo

>>49783733
Why? I'm sure she'd love to hear about it

>>49784243
Her design strikes a good balance between more traditional and more derivative shrine maiden costumes while also having a lot of frills and other details, the ur-ZUNart. She has a pretty consistent amount of details across the various parts of her outfit, and those details work together fairly well. I particularly like her shirt's collar.
Her flattened ribbon with the pointy tips looks very unique, cute, and is instantly identifiable.
The way she's leaning back, combined with her unamused face makes her look really dashing, which stands out among the other shrine maidens who are either serene, carefree, or some combination of the two.
Her reddish blond hair is unique, making her stand out among the large number of blondehus.
Lastly, there is also the detail of her being from the future which, combined with the greenery around her, it creates this image of a naturalistic, arcadian far future, an interesting idea to think about.

>>49786600
True, very true. Her clothes are very ornate, but still feel like a shrine maiden's outfit because of the colour balance. They're ornate in a very fun way, too: look at her shoes, look at those little berry decorations there. Look at her pockets. Her collar's great, true. Look at her collar. It's a joy.
>Her reddish blond hair is unique, making her stand out among the large number of blondehus.
Isn't it funny how she's explicitly described as blonde, but is actually basically a redhead? Though maybe it's strawberry blonde.
>Lastly, there is also the detail of her being from the future which, combined with the greenery around her, it creates this image of a naturalistic, arcadian far future, an interesting idea to think about.
Yeah, it's evocative. Though I've always assumed that the titular 未来世紀 is... The twenty-first century ^^; Because the original drawing is from 2001.

>>49580092 (OP)
Now that I see this thread I want to ask a lot of things!

Who is the Pierrot?
What is the meaning of Hourai?
What is the "meaning" of this album?
And I want to know some headcanons you all have.

>>49795718
Out of principle, I refuse to treat questions 1 and 3 as if they have answers.
On my interpretation of Hourai, and the album's name: because mount Penglai ("Hourai" in japanese) is considered a utopia, and because dolls are ersatz-human playthings, I like to imagine that it means something like "the human shapes being toyed with by paradise". Which is what happens in the story, I guess.

>>49795841
>I like to imagine that it means something like "the human shapes being toyed with by paradise".
Honestly this sounds good enough.

Do you think it is an allegory to something? I think it fits with Gensokyo manipulation of humans.

Is weird for me seeing the old works of Touhou. It has such a unique vibe compared to the newer ones. The way light is used, and the general design of the games, drawings and albums is so unique. In fact, I want to create art based on it, I love the Touhou original style.

Anyone knows if it based on something, a specfic style? I mean, the abstract art in the Touhou portraits that seems to have other images in it but blurred. Or even the title screens, album covers (DiPP)

>>49795718
>Who is the Pierrot?
The most plausible theory, and the one that you will hear most often, is that it's Alice. There are a few reasons for that, most notable being the common motif of dolls. Ultimately, I don't think that idea is correct, because Alice is implied to have only recently arrived in Gensokyo in PCB, since she asks Marisa if all winters are as long as that one, and I think it is even stated that Alice became a youkai by not eating for a while so she could study magic better.
I choose to believe that the characters in the story are unique to it and that it takes place in a part of Gensokyo that hasn't appeared in the games because I think it makes Gensokyo feel larger, but if I had to come up with a theory, Yukari, she is a former human turned youkai in mysterious circumstances, blonde, a time traveler, so she could appear in a time when opium consumption was common, and has access to Gensokyo. The only issue is that she has no connection to dolls.
>What is the meaning of Hourai?
It is an almost believable utopia that is always just out of reach. A place where time still passes, but only at its inhabitants' behest, not unlike the Isles of the Blessed or Shambala. It is where we all wish to be.
>What is the "meaning" of this album?
I take it to be a kind of skeleton key to the rest of Touhou, which is especially evident from the title. 2hus are in many ways like dolls, from their delicate appearance to the weird, inconsistent way they sometimes behave. The term "pseudo-paradise" also fits Gensokyo very well, both in the sense that it is an idyllic but imperfect land, and in the sense that, while it appears to be a paradise, it is, in actuality, a land of illusion, the stage for a puppet show. As for the story itself, I think when taken as a companion to EoSD, it shows how Touhou's aesthetics can lend themselves to any number of stories, since, in many ways DiPP is the complementary opposite to EoSD.
For me, by far the most intriguing part of the album is the music, now that's something to decipher!

>>49796109
>I take it to be a kind of skeleton key to the rest of Touhou, which is especially evident from the title. 2hus are in many ways like dolls, from their delicate appearance to the weird, inconsistent way they sometimes behave. The term "pseudo-paradise" also fits Gensokyo very well, both in the sense that it is an idyllic but imperfect land, and in the sense that, while it appears to be a paradise, it is, in actuality, a land of illusion, the stage for a puppet show. As for the story itself, I think when taken as a companion to EoSD, it shows how Touhou's aesthetics can lend themselves to any number of stories, since, in many ways DiPP is the complementary opposite to EoSD.
Honestly this makes a lot of sense. And I like it a lot.

But, do you think ZUN really knew what he was doing? I mean, I am not saying he is incapable. But I have always wondered if creators of "long runners" (To call in some way) Already have years and years of content planned. It is like how the creator of FNAF seemed to have made the entire game up while using fanmade theories.

In this case, I wonder if ZUN actually had plans. Even more so when we remember that IN was going to be the final game. Based on what you say, I would think that in this timeline where Touhou was the last game, he thought that people where going to do as they do today; creating new stories with his characters, fan art, anything. So, it makes me truly wonder if ZUN is more intelligent than we think he is.

>>49796190
I think by the time ZUN actually made IN, he had already settled on continuing Touhou, otherwise why would he release the first Hifuu album, which ends on a cliffhanger, as a companion to it?
ZUN clearly doesn't have a full plan, and some of the things he does are reactions to the fans, such as Hecatia being made the most powerful so people would stop talking about powerscaling, but I think when he adds characters, locations, etc. he thinks of particular details which he only comes back to when he feels is the time, like he did with Keine recently. He probably has a set of particular ideals for what he thinks Touhou should be, and cycles between them when he feels like it.
Touhou, overall, feels more like an aesthetic experience with lore only added for the sake of completeness, just like real life.

>>49795718
All this questions have many interpretations, even as a single person one can make multiple interpretations.... So I doubt it helps but:
>Who is the Pierrot?
Maybe the "alter ego" of one of the humans, some outside actor who kills/manipulates them, maybe even something created by them.
>What is the meaning of Hourai?
Maybe a place where mind and matter are closer to each other a magical land so to say. Desires come true like a perfect home, but also fears... maybe past guilt plays a role in the story... Who knows.
>What is the "meaning" of this album?
>Whenever it rotates, the pattern is changed like Kaleidoscope

>>49796109
>spoiler
Sounds very possible. As for the relationship with dolls: Shikigami are a bit like dolls/puppets
Guess I must be of the few that don't think of linking the clown to a specific 2hu...

>>49796190
Ideas are kind of "recycled" here and there from early windows and maybe even pc98. ZUN seems to have either ideas noted down that he stores away for years or either just checks what he actually wrote in a game before making a character return, maybe remembering what ideas he had at those times.
But Touhou can't really be "all planed out" since he likes to put things relating to recent real life events and such. But he might have some key characters/events/magicStuffs made beforehand and just introduce them whenever he sees fit. It's Impossible to tell for sure how his creative process goes though.

>>49796364
I think it was meant to be his last game, but he still had planned on releasing music. So his plan might have been for Hifuu to keep exploring that "wonderland" he left in the past. Left abandoned and to be rediscovered by people from outside...

>>49580196
Is she floating on a blanket?

>>49803943
>I think it was meant to be his last game, but he still had planned on releasing music. So his plan might have been for Hifuu to keep exploring that "wonderland" he left in the past. Left abandoned and to be rediscovered by people from outside...
That does actually make sense.
Maybe ZUN initially wanted to write more diverse stories around the concept of a magic land stuck in the early Meiji period, and DiPP, the original windows trilogy and the early Hifuu albums were just a few of those.

How is life in Hourai?

>>49819216
Very peaceful, except when it isn't.

>>49819216
Rainy.

>>49722340
The last one

This thread sure was an unexpected surprise to read over. A decent bit to think about, and a discovered interest in the likes of Hearn.

>>49821688
Just cut off a doll's head.

>>49823032
I would, but those blue eyes, staring me down...

>>49722340
Shanghai Alice of Meiji 17. It's the most representative of DiPP's as a whole, especially because of how it blends tonal and atonal sections.

I love everything about Hourai, it's a paradise surrounded in esotericism, even far more than Gensokyo.

>>49831707
Surprisingly cute

>>49587274
You, the reader, for allowing the story to unveil as you continued to read.

The thread only reminds me that zeal goes hand in hand with lack of conviction.

>>49605392
ZUN Windowsbrain confirmed......

>>49608214
Canon is the discussable consensus.

>>49837796
>zeal goes hand in hand with lack of conviction
Honestly I'd appreciate if you'd elaborate

>>49752232
I loved the extra stage!

>>49840854
I enjoyed the reference as much as the next guy, but it's so weird seeing a very characteristically DiPP/幻想空間-era ZUN girl in his PC-98 style. The rest of the fangame's characters are very well-done in terms of adhering to the design philosophy of PC-98 Touhou, but Lin looks so unnatural. As far as I can tell, the stage is supposed to resemble Seihou 1's extra stage as well, which is just as weird stylistically. Though maybe it was intentional?

>>49841834
Seihou's extra stage does fit in with the DiPP aesthetic, the place where you fight Marisa and Reimu is very otherworldy

>>49844332
True, desu I like considering Seihou a kind of honorary part of DiPP/Exotic Girls/幻想空間, even the third one.

DIPP TURNED 23 TODAY PEOPLE!! AUGUST 11TH 2002-2025!

>>49845811
This thread appeared at just the right time.
Happy birthday, Jacket and Label!

Which hourai would be the most friendly to you without any dark intentions?

>>49850704
none of them because we're stinky /jp/sies breaking the poignant atmosphere

>>49850704
Labelko always struck me as the more sincere and down-to-earth one, but I have to at least try to befriend Jacketko.

>>49786600
>>49594450
These are actual works of art. On par with anything from the renaissance at the very least.

>>49850704
The cleaning maid, probably. she looks like a simple, playful and sincere person. though I agree with >>49850930, label looks pretty friendly

>>49855024
The maid seems lazy to the point of being antisocial, but she is pretty carefree.

I would like you to vote for at least one of the hourais on this year's poll!

>>49863241
Oh, hell, I forgot that it existed. I've been voting for both DiPP girls for ages now, ever since I discovered the poll. Though to be honest I don't like it because it doesn't have the nameless Portrait of Exotic Girls characters who are my favourites

>>49863278
Should we have a comment that we all write variations of, so the people in this thread can find each other in the comments? That could be fun.

>>49863392
NTA, but what if we all put something like "See you in Hourai" at the end of our comments?

>>49863494
Sounds good.

>>49863494
Cool idea, but... In english? That's a little lame... I'd suggest "そして僕はさっそく、人間をやめた。", it's one of my favourite lines from the C62 story. We could modify it, if anyone wants

>>49863587
Alright, we're only using it as a sort of dog whistle anyways, but what's the problem with writing it in english?

>>49867581
Aesthetics, of course.

since she's in Portrait of Exotic Girls as well, what does everyone think of this Reimu?

>>49869703
Is it the same 'mu who smokes opium?

>>49869827
And keeps fairies in bottles...

>>49869895
Hourai girls make me wanna see what's so cool about opium...

>>49869827
>>49869895
>>49869914
How do we know it's opium? I'm all for narcotics in Gensokyo...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzjASrlNaaw

>>49869981
Well, largely because of Shanghai Genya, but in the case of zun000.jpg, it's implied pretty directly (though it says "tobacco and opium")

>>49870105
Wow that's some real internet detective work, nice one anon, this one's on the house
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSkgEAvISL4

>>49870137
...Internet decetive work?

Well, time to wrap up the thread...

>>49884041
What's the limit? I keep forgetting.

>>49884764
310

Any last words, paradise people?

>>49888870
I don't really have any. This was a good thread, although noticeably different from the last. How about you?

>>49891957
Yeah, pretty good thread. Quite civil as well. Although we could have used a bit more proper thoughtful discussion, but that requires investment, and people have pretty different approaches, which makes it a little difficult.
Not nearly enough C63ver discussion either! Not nearly enough!

Well, see you all at the next /hourai/ gathering!

>>49892069
is this opium for next thread ?

>>49892069
>Quite civil as well.
Hourai anons are very gentlemanly!
>>49899547
We can take it right now if you want, but it isn't really recommended. There's a lot of it and we don't have a lot of time.

>>49895793
Tomorrow?

>>49902610
By tomorrow, this thread will probably still be up. Besides, the dolls need some more time in Hourai before coming back.

Now back to Hourai I guess...

I was sadly never able to bump this thread with the art I wanted to do for it in time, egg on my face since I had ample opportunity to do as such, but I suppose it will simply be something I save for the next OC thread instead.
Take care as always and please wait warmly until next time, /hourai/~

This thread was more active than I thought it would be, thank you all for posting in it!
Even though I'd say it lasted as long as it needed to last, and most of the bases were covered, I can't help but feel melancholic about it archiving.
Anyway, here's a doodle. Don't go mad with the poppies.

>>49910235
>Don't go mad with the poppies.
No promises~

Goodnight, thread!
>>49910324
Honestly, I like it. The subject actually fits your style very well.

great thread. I remembered why 2hu attracted me in the first place. Childlike wonder.