Thread 49849247

A thread was made the other day in the JRPG sub, where someone asked about a list of translated, non-localized JRPGs and reddit flamed and downvoted him.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JRPG/comments/1ml0fvs/japanese_games_that_are_translated_and_not/

Is he wrong, /jp/?

Because it seems to me that he has a point.
Localization and translation aren't the same thing. One is translating, the other is filtering content for a gaijin demographic. My understanding is that you can translate for mechanical accuracy or intended meaning, which means that most translators look for a balance of both. Every blog says this is easier said than done, but having to employ dynamic or formal equivalence isn't the same as localizing, where something is changed drastically to make it easier orore appealing to a foreign audience.
What I don't understand is why the people on reddit are so combative about this.

I'm interested in what /jp/ might have to say on this.

>>49849247 (OP)
He got flamed because all translation has to have some sort of localisation to it, localisation is a dirty word because of the legacy of 4kids and really shitty translators, but any translator does localisation to make something legible out of the end product. Also I briefly checked this thread and he's been doing it for years apparently so I suspect some sort of troll.

>>49849247 (OP)
>Good translation is NOT:
>Inaccurate but 'faithful', nor is it necessarily constrained by the closest literal, mechanical analog

Works are art and the point of art is to portray your thoughts and transmit them to other people. The absolute meaning that is trying to be expressed is all that matters. You could rewrite the whole thing and as long as it is giving the same message in the end it has been translated. On top of that, some stories have a tendency to give meanings to character names, doubly so when written with Japanese and Chinese characters that can also mean their own things. Original viewers might gain something from knowing Macaque Firefist is hunting down Baboon Icekick because he kidnapped Macaque's girlfriend Banana and brought her to the Killer Ape. Meanwhile the viewers of the subs just get a bunch of chingchong names to remember.

>>49849464
>all translation has to have some sort of localisation to it
Are you talking about dynamic equivalence? That isn't the same thing as localising.
See https://www.word-connection.com/post/dynamic-equivalence-in-translation

>What is formal equivalence?
>Formal equivalence is an approach to translation where the aim is to remain as close as possible to the original text. The translated text will preserve the vocabulary and the grammatical structure of the source text.
>Formal equivalence enables readers to apply their own interpretation to the original text and to consider the nuances of its meaning. However, they may only be able to do this if they are at least somewhat familiar with the source language and culture.
>This approach to translation minimises the possibility of the translator imbuing outputs with their own biases. It also reduces the chances of inappropriate alternatives to the original words being chosen. These may alter the inherent meaning of the text beyond simply correcting cultural or lexical differences.

>What is dynamic equivalence?
>With dynamic equivalence, texts are rendered into the target language using words and structures that make more sense to their audience than a word for word translation. The vocabulary, grammar structure and idioms of the source text will not be preserved. The aim is to maintain the intended meaning and elicit the intended emotional response by utilising grammar and vocabulary that feels more natural in the target language.
>When the structure and grammar of the target language vary greatly from that of the source, modern readers may struggle to understand a translation unless the words have been altered or rearranged. A literal translation with the original syntax preserved can be incredibly difficult to read.
>A target audience may not be familiar with the source culture and so will require references to be explained or idioms to be localised.

I think an important distinction about localisation is that it isn't even limited by the original content, or even intentions of the source speaker.
A localiser will take a tanuki and call it a racoon, while a translator employing either form of equivalence shown here will still call it a tanuki. Having to employ a dynamic approach to which words and analogs used while translating isn't the same as localising.

>>49849947
>while a translator employing either form of equivalence shown here will still call it a tanuki
I feel like the point of the dynamic translator would be to distinguish if it is a 'raccoon dog' or a mythological tanuki.

>>49849942
>Works are art and the point of art is to portray your thoughts and transmit them to other people. The absolute meaning that is trying to be expressed is all that matters. You could rewrite the whole thing and as long as it is giving the same message in the end it has been translated.
You absolutely are correct that works are art and the point of art is to communicate (portray your thoughts and transmit them to others), but you also need to acknowledge that the literary and artistic components and their qualities are just as important as its overarching 'message' (whatever that means).

Claiming that it's 'still the same story' after changing so much about it, and then calling that a translation is just categorically incorrect.

I'm fine with most localisations provided they aren't overly americanised, or, worse yet, full of american voice actors who seem to only be getting worse as the years go on for some reason. I remember when I was tired of Steve Blum, if only I knew how bad it was gonna get.

>>49850023
if the context demanded it, sure, but colloquially people are able to accurately infer that.

>>49849247 (OP)
Who gives a shit about other websites?

>>49850044
>I'm fine with most localizations, provided they aren't localizations
I'd unironically take a dozen "all your base" over a single "jelly doughnut" any day.

>>49850044
American game and anime dubbed voice acting has to be some form of crime. Anything American made has perfectly fine VAs but it's always the shittiest cabal for asian games and anime.

>>49850450
>Anything American made has perfectly fine VAs but it's always the shittiest cabal for asian games and anime.
you're grafting American voices onto something that was never created with that in mind. it's like taking jigsaw puzzle pieces from a different set that have to be forced in to fit.

>>49849247 (OP)
I find people who get upset about localisations tend to fall into two groups. There's the low proficiency group which seems to think that you can get cultural ideas across without significant editing, such as translating a rough-talking rude character who speaks exclusively in a heavy vernacular from one language to the other and simply sub out words to make the effect land the same way in the other language. And then there's the mid proficiency group who just aren't skilled enough to read it in the original language but just want to read it as hewing as close to a direct and literal translation as possible, as they can fill in the gaping holes a direct translation provides while seemingly being ignorant of the fact a competent translator is supposed to translate something for an audience which may know nothing about the original language. When I find people complaining about localisations, I wonder which ones they are, particularly because nobody can seem to give an airtight definition of localisation that excludes beloved translations but includes bad ones.

>>49850044
Personally I simply don't like American accents.

>>49850541
>There's the low proficiency group which seems to think that you can get cultural ideas across without significant editing, such as translating a rough-talking rude character who speaks exclusively in a heavy vernacular from one language to the other and simply sub out words to make the effect land the same way in the other language.
idk if that was diminutive but that's actually what a lot of manga translators do. as a translator, you're not 'subbing out words', you're picking the best word to use, or the closest appropriate synonym to what would otherwise be simply vague.
you're not taking liberties with the translation because you're still working within the confines of what the original speaker was trying to convey.
>And then there's the mid proficiency group who just aren't skilled enough to read it in the original language but just want to read it as having as close to a direct and literal translation as possible, as they can fill in the gaping holes a direct translation provides. . .
based on your description, I'd likely fall into this camp. Finding the subs on nyaa for the same anime be slightly worded differently when done by different people is all that it takes to learn that binary and analogs can vary depending on the person. translation isn't just words, but also conforming to the syntax and grammar conventions of the target language so that they make semantic sense. localisation has nothing to do with any of this.
>When I find people complaining about localisations, I wonder which ones they are, particularly because nobody can seem to give an airtight definition of localisation that excludes beloved translations but includes bad ones.
you have two different groups of people with different ideas on what translation and localization are. one conflates the two outright and think the other side. one side thinks that translation is word-for-word, no-syntax no-grammar, or works just like Google Translate with binary outputs, and that the existence of subjectivity, equivalence, or interpretation suddenly just *isn't* translation.

>>49850541
>a competent translator is supposed to translate something for an audience which may know nothing about the original language
This is a problem in its own right as a lot of stuff that would be translated in this context are by otaku for otaku, not the general audience. The "mid proficiency group" are those who are weeb enough to have experienced enough Japanese culture through prior experiences and so don't need things like oni translated to ogre and given translation notes and things like that. It's like explaining to a Japanese otaku why a character is a gothloli catgirl who says desuwakana at the end of her sentences like they've never seen otaku oriented characters before. There's a benefit to the subtarget audience(since the target would be japanese otaku, they just happen to be approaching japanese otaku in nature) having something as close as possible to the japanese, even though it'd be better if they just made the jump and read it in japanese. Every shitty eroge and late night anime doesn't need to be localized for the Toonami audience.

>>49851020
There shouldn't even be an argument, there should just be multiple translations by different people, but the fan translation scene has shrunken so you don't get multiple groups anymore. The article in >>49849947 used the bible as a good example. There's cultural aspects, nuances of words, and meanings that might be lost in more liberal translations or misinterpreted in more literal translations. Seraphim, for example, has whether they contextually covered their feet or their genitals with their wings, and the meaning of the word seraph itself could be interpreted as something like venomous snake when used in other contexts. If not for the former example they might be interpreted as dragon-like beings. In the modern era, you should be able to switch between multiple translations and even have some sort of notes easily accessible by hovering text or to the side of the screen on digital works.

>>49849947
>A localiser will take a tanuki and call it a racoon, while a translator employing either form of equivalence shown here will still call it a tanuki.
The funny thing is both of those are different kinds of localisation.

Half of reddit is bots and the other half is "people" so retarded and brainwashed they might as well be bots. Why even bother bringing that onto mah /jp/?

>>49849247 (OP)
Just continuously learn Japanese and venomously bully the everliving fuck out of localizationbrains, but with facts and logic and "doesn't this seem..." "I'm trying to figure this out?"
I'd do that subreddit thread better were I on a reddit account and interested in the worthless task of getting actually sensible responses out of subreddit

Localization vomit maggots adding Rick & Mortu joke to Muv-Luv TDA made me drop consuming any translated Japanese content. This is where you arrive to when you give any validation to people substituting -san for 'Sir'.
"Diversity culture is great but we will NEVER introduce people to Japanese culture!" makes you think extra hard.

>>49849247 (OP)
>>49851542
Extra commentary.
What and who is disrespected by any excess* localization (and "localized" censorship) of Japanese content:
- Japanese culture
- the audience's intelligence, ability to learn, and ability to find learning useful and interesting
- the audience's interests
- the source material
- the authors of source material
- the localizers themselves (going out of translation's way to localize and censor is a global corporate humiliation ritual)

What is respected by localization:
- global corporate interests
- global corporate dehumanizing presumptions
- racists who hate Japan

This true point is so simple you could use it in any place discussing the matter. Because it's just that - true.

*for you, non-constructive pedantic nitpickers.

>>49851603
>What and who is disrespected by any excess* localization (and "localized" censorship) of
>- the authors of source material
this, you have no idea. localized dialog always feels worse than translated dialog in vidya and that's because translators have to mimic the tone of the original, which is usually more reserved and grounded.

>>49851542
The west's enduring hatred of japanese culture in particular is baffling.

>>49849247 (OP)
>What I don't understand is why the people on reddit are so combative about this.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4315604/
"Experiencing social identity threat from scientific findings can lead people to cognitively devalue the respective findings. Three studies examined whether potentially threatening scientific findings motivate group members to take action against the respective findings by publicly discrediting them on the Web. Results show that strongly (vs. weakly) identified group members (i.e., people who identified as “gamers”) were particularly likely to discredit social identity threatening findings publicly (i.e., studies that found an effect of playing violent video games on aggression). ..."

A perceived threat regrading the user's social identity played a major role in the turnout of that thread I think. I would be interested in what would one have to identify with to defend crappy translation though... maybe they feel sorry for the people making the crappy translations, therefore the post undermining their identity as compassionate people? Do they dislike the OP potentially undermining their status as credible JRPG fans, so as ones who practice honest criticism of translations with knowledge of the source language? Do they dislike the OP for potentially discrediting some developers they like?

>>49852080
It's called Pearl Harbour and Bataan, ever heard of them?

>>49852204
I have heard of quite a big lot of things. You suggest for everyone to become a misanthrope hating every single country, regardless of what it's like now? This is just not constructive, sensible, rational, practical, worth engaging with beyond calling it out.

>>49849247 (OP)
>Weeb makes thread on reddit
oh my FUCKING GOODNESS
WHY MAKE A THREAD FOR THIS ON /jp/

>>49851458
>both of those are different kinds of localisation.
formal equivalence, dynamic equivalence, and functional equivalence are approaches to translation, not localization. localization is revision, not translation. it's implied in the name.

Fake thread.

>>49852204
I've read, despite their best efforts to make this disappear from memory, about (((Them))) throwing an atomic bomb on Nagasaki merely because two thirds of the population there were christians