Thread 63800721

>lol didn't work for the French
The Nazis went around it. (And they also had air supremacy.)
What I'm proposing is a massive combination earthen/man-made barrier along the entirety of the collective non-maritime border with Russia/Belarus to protect the Baltics.
Why aren't they doing this right now?
>It's a provocation
How?
If you own a home and your neighbors all fence in their properties, you get a FREE fence (at least on three sides).
Do you think the US would look askance at Canada or Mexico building a massive, military-grade barrier that would have the effect of eliminating almost all illegal border crossings?

>>63800721 (OP)
Maginot line is too expensive and elaborate. Minefields, barbed wire, anti-tank ditches and dragon's teeth will be enough.

>>63800721 (OP)
The reason they're not doing it is they really only need to hold on long enough for the UK, Germans, French, Poles, and/or the US to show up and save the day. While some strong permanent fortifications and delaying earthworks would be a very good idea a Maginot 2.0 would simply be beyond their means without major foreign assistance/participation if you actually wanted it to be effective.

>>63800721 (OP)
if ukranians can do it today and finns could do it with dirtforts 80 years ago then of course they can. all that is stopping them is their own inferiority complex that led them to cuck out without a fight in ww2

>>63800721 (OP)
Would pay money to see Battle of Narva 3 Russia pontooning. Narva soil needs to be fertilized again with dead vatniks.

>>63800721 (OP)
>"Could"
Sure. Why not. Maybe they can also buy plans for Jewish Space Lasers and Third Reich wunderwaffles that were never built.

It's protected by lakes and forests, and there are still few good roads, so it seems difficult to deploy a large army.
Also, the Russian army is no longer a large one.

>>63800798
Shorts in 10°C is much more managable than jacket in 30°C.

>>63800721 (OP)
You need heavy equipment (armor, engineering vehicles, mine clearing vehicles, etc.) and/or massive air power to breach fortifications. Russia spent the last three years pissing away their heavy equipment in Ukraine and hardly had a formidable air force to begin with.

>>63800812
>>63800849
>Minefields, barbed wire, anti-tank ditches and dragon's teeth will be enough.
>While some strong permanent fortifications and delaying earthworks would be a very good idea
They heard you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Defence_Line

>>63800849
No chance the US will come defend some countries nobody can point to on a map. Those days are over

>>63800979
What if they invade through the blue country?

>>63800812
>Maginot line is too expensive and elaborate. Minefields, barbed wire, anti-tank ditches and dragon's teeth will be enough.

It's that and HIMARS and air power to pummel attacking Russian forces. Slow them down enough and them relentlessly pummel them. They have no strategic depth to fall down on so they need to hit them as hard as they can with everything. We saw Russians get bogged down trying to invade in new directions, and the same would happen in the Baltics.

>>63801050
Its the baltic sea, and russian track record for naval invasions is not that good.
Additional challenges rise due Finland being fully capable of seamining the whole whole gulf of finland shut, and Kaliningrad ports being fully in range of poland, lithuania, and swedish gotland

>>63800721 (OP)
I feel like concertina wire + bounding mines is an unbeatable meta.

>>63801273
Needs also drone wall, some long range missile capacity, and obviously fuckton of anti-air

> Could Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia defend themselves with a new Maginot line?
From what? Lmao. The Russian military is flaming rubble. You think Serbia or Belarus are gonna attack for some insane reason?

>>63801470
>Serbia

Isn't Russia currently seething at them right now because Serbia got caught providing arms to Ukraine under the table?

>>63801470
>The Russian military is flaming rubble
They can still be a dangerous nuisance, today and in the years to come
>You think Serbia or Belarus are gonna attack
russia can use Belarus as a staging ground for invasion, like in 2022
What the fuck Serbia has to do with this?

>>63801480
>They can still be a dangerous nuisance, today
Can they though? I'm pretty sure if Russia tried to open a second front for some insane reason, even setting aside NATO's response, Ukraine would push their shit in to Moscow within like a week.
>and in the years to come
Decades

>What the fuck Serbia has to do with this?
I dunno, seems like it would be less insane for them to march across Europe in the cover of night and randomly attack the Baltics than for Russia to start shit given the current moment. A NATO/EU country sure as shit won't and I don't think Switzerland's planning to ever invade anyone again except maybe Liechtenstein for a laugh.

>>63801511
>Can they though?
They can still recruit millions of ethnic minorities and fool foreigners into becoming mercs before they have to touch their actually important St Pete's/Moscow populations. Sure they won't accomplish much, but they'll kill a lot of western soldiers in the process if the war devolves into Ukraine 2.0
>I'm pretty sure if Russia tried to open a second front for some insane reason, even setting aside NATO's response
If they stopped pushing and stabilized the frontline they could open a second front of widen the Ukraine front if they wished, they have the manpower (for now) and the nork/chink support for it. And setting aside NATO's response is a genuine possibility since Trump could always cuck out and "lol not dying for Baltics" is a real sentiment. Western populations are not propagandized enough for war right now and that'll take a while.
>Ukraine would push their shit in to Moscow within like a week.
I don't think Ukraine is capable of any major offensive action at the moment, especially against fortifications

>>63800721 (OP)
Thread theme: https://youtu.be/Q1VDxMe54Og?si=cmOoTBrIaRflnOdt

>>63800849
We're actually making one (see >>63800979) for the simple reason that just "holding out for allies to arrive" is not enough when any town that russians "liberate" turns into pic related.

>>63800721 (OP)
They're first world countries

Just have a 100,000 strong Chairforce and Army with each cunt having 6 multimeme frigates and 2 submarines from Sweden

>>63801050
They get killed by angry Poles.

If ziggers invaded the Baltics:
1) decisive NATO victory
2) Baltics would cease to exist

Western leaders would bring flowers to the mass graves of last real white people and vow to never let it happen again like the last time.

>>63800721 (OP)
They don't need a line, just some hard points. Their land is a swampy, forested mess that is very easy to defend if you are willing to take the pain.
Use your brain. There is a reason these countries still exist when they had so many powerful neighbors. It is very hard to conquer them by force and then costly to hold onto the territory if they are not passified.

Could, but shouldn't. It's outdated concept easily countered or bypassed with modern weapons.

We have the PeakBog-inot line instead. Good luck crossing pic. rel. with any heave armor. Or even on foot. We still pull fully intact, abandoned WW2 tanks from them if they're haven't sunken too deep.

>>63800721 (OP)
Because they have zero reason to allow Russia to build up forces necessary to stage an invasion without preemptively responding and using long-range fires to disrupt and destroy forces as they muster. What's Tima gonna do, nuke Estonia?

>>63800849

*they really only need to hold on long enough for the UK, French, Poles, and/or the US to show up and save the day

ftfy. Germans cannot be relied on to do anything other than waste their budget, and to be fair medical and logistical services.

>>63801802
I'd wager it probably still won't have the density of the genuine article, but it also probably doesn't actually need to due to terrain that makes the Adrennes look pleasant and the combo of modern guided weaponry and surveillance systems. These days "unguarded" areas with shitty terrain would be a good trap rather than a good gap.

I was treating the idea as more literal with WAY more forts and weapons. A true modern Maginot would be super densely built.

>>63800721 (OP)
>lol didn't work for the French
That's Belgium's fault

>>63800721 (OP)
>The Nazis went around it.
They originally intended to use 800mm cannons to punch through the line. Russia would probably use cruise missiles, ballistic missiles and glide bombs for the same purpose.
>(And they also had air supremacy.)
Russia would, too, at least until NATO shows up. The baltic air forces put together have 9 helicopters and 2 fighter jets (if you are generous enough to count the pair of L-39s that Estonia leases as fighter jets)
>>63802713
russia can move troops around within its borders however it wants. if the baltics strike them before russia crosses into your borders then that makes them the aggressor. russia can then steamroll the baltics and NATO nations will have an excuse to not intervene

>>63803486
>Russia would
puccia cant even knock out ukraine air force in a surprise attack. All it takes is modernish AA batteries to keep them out of the skies which the trio has
>russia can then steamroll the baltics
sure. just like they steamrolled ukraine. (you) pidors will never learn until you get your teeth kicked in. then cry and run to uncle orange about how mean boris johnsons are to you

>>63800721 (OP)
It did work for the French. It’s whole purpose was to push the Germans somewhere else

>>63803549
>All it takes is modernish AA batteries to keep them out of the skies which the trio has
The best the baltics have is a handful of NASAMS which is outranges by glide bombs. Once those are gone they’re down to MANPADS and a few 40mm bofors guns
>russia can then steamroll the baltics
>sure. just like they steamrolled ukraine.
The portion of ukriane that russia took in 2 days or so was larger than the entire baltics put together. Also Ukraine was better equipped than the baltics are since they actually had fighter jets and shit

>>63800721 (OP)

the way they defend themselves is to let Russia know if they attack, they will turn SP and Moscow to rubble.

>>63803486
>that makes them the aggressor
Okay? That doesn't change anything. Russia is still invading. They can't escalate any more than that besides using nukes which would prompt an immediate response from NATO with their own nukes. We literally JUST sat here and watched Russia build up an invasion force along Ukraine's borders for weeks while the Russians screeched "No we're not invading" just for them to invade. Nobody is falling for that shit again.

>>63801691
You're exaggerating the weaknesses of the West and strengths of Russia you zigger retard shill. Russia won't be in a position to invade anybody else for years. They have lost half a million men and almost all of their equipment, including half of their fucking strategic bonber fleet in case you missed that--all to a bunch of thirdies with hand me downs and drones. There are multiple brigades of NATO trip wire units all over the baltics who will absolutely ensure that the alliance is drawn into a conflict. If Ukraine can kill hundreds of thousands of mystery meat golf cart riding retards and stop their invasion in its tracks, im pretty sure adding the ENTIRETY OF EUROPE to their list of active combatants isn't going to help. They can't beat 1 stupid shithole, how are they going to suddenly defeat that 1 country PLUS dozens if other countries at the same time? Even if the US isn't involved Russia is fucked.

I hope they try it though. I fucking salivate at the chance of seeing Russia humiliated further.

>>63801691
>Sure they won't accomplish much, but they'll kill a lot of western soldiers in the process
With what materiel, lmao.

>>63800721 (OP)
Why not just make a moat? Vatniks suck at river crossings.

>>63800721 (OP)
Lol. Russia is spent. All you need is a chicken fence and some cheap drones.

>>63803643
They'd have to mortgage shit over to China to be able to afford the rebuilding, or do some kind of onerous credit deal. Even then, it's not going to happen for another cycle.

I feel sorry for the 2050s because that's going to be a real fucking noxious brew. 1970s was Soviet, 2010s was Putinist. 2050s is going to be Islamist Russia.

>>63801480
Serbia is a Russian client state at this point and would likely assist them. Hundreds to even thousands of Serbs have even volunteered to fight against Ukraine since 2014

>>63800979
>>63801802
Are there pictures of the bunkers?

>>63803786
>Serbia is a Russian client state at this point and would likely assist them.
They have been sending weapons to Ukraine so overtly that the FSB just bombed a plant in Valjevo as retaliation.

>>63803768
>2050s is going to be Islamist Russia.
>commie-protofacist-revanchist-jihadist-vatniks
It almost sounds like a C&C villain.

>>63803643
What’s important is that, if the baltics struck first, then Russia would have a plausible excuse for invading and NATO countries would have an excuse to stand back and do much less than they would if Russia threw the first punch. The caroline test exists but it’s not nearly as clear cut as “such and such attacked first so they are the aggressor”, and NATO holds military exercises near Russia’s border so it would be easy for NATO states to argue that military exercises don’t justify preemptive self-defense as an excuse for chickening out

>>63801273
https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Nuclear_(Civ1)

>>63804032
Rhetoric bullshit does not work really when Russia has been saying they will invade Baltics for years.

>>63803813
I haven't seen any pics of them yet, but they were testing prototypes in 2024
https://breakingdefense.com/2024/10/estonia-carries-out-bunker-prototype-tests-for-envisioned-baltic-defense-line/

>>63803813
>>63805015
In anyway, it seems like they'll be small and of a simple design

>>63800721 (OP)
If you could ever get them from killing themselves, not a chance

>>63803643
>half of their fucking strategic bonber flee
4 is not half of ~70.

>>63805045
Well, half of the functional fleet

There's already a line being proposed, but it's by the previous Lithuanian government, the current one are retards, even if the previous one would still in power I'm 98% sure they wouldn't get it done, so completely 0 chance with the current one; and if they managed it, Latvia and Estonia would need to commit as well, and Latvia can't even build their part of Rail Baltica, which is just a train line; any kind of sophisticated defence line is not going to happen, so peat bog defence line it is

https://youtu.be/bEo1SPNsYMU?si=-LCvDxX5-1o78eLM

>>63806419
For what it's worth, we treat our Defense Ministry far better then the Ministry of Transport, even with the current below average MoD.
If the border defenses will be treated with half the seriousness the new base being built, it'll still be fine.

>>63806532
Yeah, maybe I'm being a little too pessimistic, but I can hardly see a well built line being done anytime soon, I'd love it to happen though, the amount of zigger tears (both local and foreign) would probably flood a few towns

>>63806802
If Estonia and Ukraine were both equally ex-soviet states, what's reason that Russia chose to invade Ukraine and not Estonia? Putin was very clear. He wanted to "correct" all nations inside Russian Empire both soviet and otherwise.

>>63806827
NATO, Ukraine is not a part of it

>>63806834
Indeed.
Putin, unlike what some people seem to think is in fact a coward. He's 100% not a zealot who'll launch nukes to end the world out of spite. Stalin would've done it, Hitler 100%. Not Putin.

Fearing his completely imaginary "red lines" has been a running joke to every one actually in this war.

>>63806858
And to add, Estonia and other Baltic countries have become a lot more civilized since leaving the zigger union, while Ukraine is still a Nigeria-tier country thanks to massive interference from their 5th column, while they are moving leaps and bounds towards becoming civilized, it's still ages away from becoming one, which makes it an easier target for ziggers to invade, as can be seen by the global response, and the likes of pajeets still cheering for monke

>>63806858
I think all of those "putin riding a bear" and pic rel are a zigger psy-op, trying to make russia look strong

>>63801007
people say this shit all the time but we have way too many military assets to just say "no thanks"

>>63807088
military assets in europe**

>>63807088
At the moment I think there's about 3000 US soldiers stationed in the Baltics, if US wouldn't do anything about them it would show the US military as the biggest cuck possible, and any foreign bases with US stationed soldiers would be as good as done

>>63807137
True, which just makes this magical pivot to Taiwan's protection even less believable.

The Taiwanese, SK or Japanese don't believe US nuclear umbrella protects them. Philippines would really just want to sit this one out for once. Really no love for mustering troops to invade mainland China.

>>63807260
"Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

>>63800721 (OP)
Kinda sorta, ziggers will park on one side and bomb civilian homes anyway.

>>63806915
My favorite recurring interviews in TraumaZone were the old babushka living in a literal where? village. First interview with her she's hand-sawing birch logs while talking about her late husband who lost his leg in the great patriotic war. Last interviews with her were a few years later and they asked what she thought of the elections and she basically said "who cares? none of them ever come out here." Then she thinks for a bit then says something like "wait, if you publish this video they might send some goons to punish me for talking bad!"

>>63807260
>The Taiwanese, SK or Japanese don't believe US nuclear umbrella protects them
China has an explicit "no first-use" nuclear doctrine.
If the US used nukes first, it would make America an absolute pariah state, even if it did so in defense of those countries.
And regardless, those countries all have formidable conventional forces anyway.

>>63802682
Indeed, american Hercules crew found out the hard way recently, while training in Lithuania

>>63806827
Baltics got lucky they joined NATO in 2004 they would have been first target for sure but Russian forces had trouble with Chechenya at that time population 4 times smaller than Baltics together. If you think their military is bad right now it was 10 times worst back then and they knew with little help from the west to Baltics they would probably even lose.

>>63800721 (OP)
realistically, what are the odds we see Russia attack the Baltics? Some of the stuff I've seen over the past few weeks has led me to believe that this is a very real possibility.

>>63811251
Dunno, watching finland kick the shit out of them would be fun tho

>>63811251
If they'll try some shit, they'll try it during Zapad 2025. That's the best cover they've got to mass troops near the Baltic borders without it being plainly obvious they're invading.
If they won't invade (or try some of their "provocations") then, they won't invade for a long time.

>>63811251
I don’t understand the logic. They’re in a quagmire and want to get even more butt fucked?

>>63811337
Its just hot air trying to seem strong. Belgium has a better chance of invading the Baltics then fucking Russia at this point.

Why can't we build a giant nuclear-powered bulldozer and make a giant mound along the EU border?

It could be then used in civilian projects to increase EU economic competitiveness.

>>63811351
People underestimate putin's delusions, the blind nationalism and/or total apathy of your average russian and the still important capacity for nuisance of the russian army despite its current sorry state
People assuring the Baltics will never be invaded sound like those who were convinced than nobody would be stupid enough to invade Ukraine. Complacency is dangerous and can be fatal for small countries like the Baltics
russia may not be able to threaten the existence of even the smallest European States anymore, but they can still do a lot of damage by tying
And even if that were true, even if the russians don't intend to invade the Baltics in a few months or years, it's better to be safe than sorry. Investing in defense has always been taking a guarantee for the future, who knows what russia will be capable of in 10 or 20 years from now
As long as russia's leaders are vocal about "retaking what's rightfully theirs" and "correcting past wrongs" they'll be dangerous and should be taken seriously, no matter how many soldiers, tanks and drones they have

>>63800721 (OP)
>Could Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia defend themselves with a new Maginot line?

No reason to bother. All they need is nukes. EU needs a massive nuclear program that equips every member state with enough nuclear ICBMs that they can each individually destroy all of Russia ten times over. That's the correct deterrent that'll work.

>>63801050
>the blue country
Dollar Tree D-Day could still happen. One can only dream.

>>63800721 (OP)
Why would they need one? Russia can't even conquer Ukraine.

Isn't one of the things spooking the fuck out of the Russians the likelihood it's the Estonians asking for Ukraines' Delta?

>>63811793
According to every alarmist out there, Russia is apparently mighty, and will attack NATO right after it kills off its entire army in Ukraine.

>>63811793
I love this Russian talking point.

>>63811803
I love how people are talking about the end of American hegemony, meanwhile Russia has exposed itself at having a worse military than 1980s Iraq and the yuropoors are so blatantly helpless that they're worried about what Russia might do next after wasting >95% of their military strength against a literally who shithole.

>>63811827
Europoor here. The propaganda about the strong bear was shattered in Ukraine, but now we have grown complacent, time to actually overestimate it and massively rearm.

>>63811849
Good, maybe some day I'll be able to take you people seriously.

>>63811827
Europeans are kinda worried about WW1->WW2 beaten Germany rising from ashes -style scenario with Russia.
While obviously unlikely, due the general shitholiness of russia, it is an worrisome thought.

>>63803553
In fairness they wanted to extend the Maginot Line to cover Belgium, but Belgium was pissy about it because they thought it would make the Germans see them as a threat, and then when France instead wanted to extend it along the French-Belgian border in case Germany went through Belgium, the Belgians got pissy about that because hurrrr you don't need to defend the border with us we're not a threat, so France decided to be diplomatic with Belgium and just not extend the Maginot Line.

Then naturally Germany went through. Thanks Belgium!

>>63811890
Obviously the solution is to make Russia the 51st state after it's done collapsing. We can introduce them to the idea of condoms and healthy, loving buttsex instead of unprotected anal rape, and get cheap oil in return, and Europe will have a large NATO buffer between them and the evil gommies. Win-win-win.

>>63811914
>he wants over a hundred mil voting democrat cause they have seen a waving commie flag

>>63811793
>>63811803
>>63811827
>russia is finished, it'll never invade anyone again ever
That kind of retarded complacency is exactly how we ended up where we are today

>>63812016
>That kind of retarded complacency is exactly how we ended up where we are today
Nobody in Europe ever thought they wouldn't attack anyone around them.
2x Chechnya 2x Georgia and now 2x Ukraine
But this time, they really fucked up, REALLY fucked up.

>>63811902
>with us we're not a threat,
It was more that symbolically, extending it to Channel signaled that they were expecting and preparing for Belgium to fall, if not outright abandoning it.
But that's why I suggested extending the Baltimot line completely around the Europoor Republics, because other than a small portion shared with Poland, the collective border is all Russian (thanks in part to Kaliningrad) and Belarussian.

>>63800721 (OP)
For Estonia it would be in the realm of possibility if you assumed Latvia didn't exist, although the Estonian-Latvian border at places is probably completely impassable with present day Russian tactics already

>>63800856
Problem with this is when you show it to a zigger they'll see it as proof that all their shitty tactics and donkeys work for gaining ground.

>>63807088
Hesgeth probably doesn't even know those assets exist

>>63800721 (OP)
Can Russia even conceive another front right now? No, no they can't.

>>63812025
It's insane how European leadership just enabled Putin's growing brazeness
>Chechnya is a de jure part of Russia, this doesn't mean they'll attack others!
>Okay, they invaded Georgia, but this was a reheating of a frozen conflict from the 90's, besides, Georgia is partially to blame for this anyway, Russia won't create NEW conflicts!
>O... okay, they seized Crimea and started a military insurrection in the Donbass, but it's a small localized war, they won't expand it further!
>OKAY OKAY THEY LAUNCHED A FULL SCALE WAR AGAINST UKRAINE, BUT UKRAINE ISN'T IN NATO, THEY WON'T DARE TO ATTACK NATO STATES! [You are here]

>>63819915
It's one half Jews thinking they need the Russian market to make money no matter what (watch them wring their hands even now if they aren't smuggling already) and the other half is le Nazi guilt where you can't be anti-Russian because the Nazis were anti-Russian

>>63819915
Why the fuck are you pushing everything onto the EU when most of the aid to Ukraine comes from there?

>>63800849
>and/or the US to show up
Lol, lmao. Like the other anon said, those days are over. The very best scenario for these countries would be a dem president in office who wants to help, but even then his hands would be tied as 50% of the country and the legislature actively subverts any aid efforts.

>>63819929
Point is that they were way too passive about the Russian threat pre 2022 and I'd argue they still need to step up their rearmament game, especially now that American support is coming increasingly under question.

>>63819915
SSDD. The fear of stoking active conflict always brings it. Russia is the country equivalent of "If you give a mouse a cookie". The single smartest thing the Euros could do is arm the fuck up and respond to this sort of shit with strength instead of appeasement. Europe has the capacity to be quite strong and capable militarily and exert pressure, but they're too scared of war to actually do it and also far to reliant on the threat that is the US. Meanwhile the Russians are clearly used to getting whatever they want with the worst pushback being the equivalent of a strongly worded letter. Europe even sending material aid (especially ATGMs, cruise missiles, and armor) instead of cowering must've been a bit of a shock.

>>63819929
I give the local drunken crackhead a pass every time he does something bad like robbing and raping the neighbors not in the HOA. I could have stood firm and stopped him one way or another back then. He eventually robs and rapes YOU. I give you $1,000 in 42 installments and some pocket knives to help you out.
Does that absolve me for being passively permissive of his previous behavior which directly allowed it to get this far in the first place?

>>63820050
The US is straight up obligated to the second someone Article 5s, but go ahead, roll those dice homeslice. The Baltics are right there. Free real estate bro. Do it. Please.

>>63820059
>>63820153
Point is that you are singling out the EU for something everyone did.

>>63820059
>American support is coming increasingly under question.
It's dead.
But at this point might as well take solace that EU is actually doing something, to the point of sidelining the faggot Orban when it comes to defense legislature. If russians decide to fuck around, they won't get curbstomed immediately, but the base is there for the EU to actually mobilize their economies for war.

>>63820153
>The US is straight up obligated
Oh shit, straight up? Half the population are straight up vatniks and no politician is gonna give a damn about NATO if aiding russia’s enemies is unfavorable to their careers.

>>63820201
And my point is the EU would have always been in the best position to actually do something about Russian aggression if they merely had the stones to build strong militaries, respond strongly, and completely take appeasement off the table. Unfortunately they always either bent the knee for one reason or another or passed the buck across the Atlantic. Not only that, when the a US president publicly called them on it, their failures to even meet minimum NATO requirements, and their reliance on Russian oil imports delegates from several European nations laughed at him.

The EU's own behavior is not just why Russia is so bold, but also why there's any risk of the US saying "Fuck this, I'm out" with NATO.

>>63820216
>the base is there for the EU to actually mobilize their economies for war
They should be doing that now so the stockpiles are there and ready. When war actually starts it's generally too late. Part of what makes the US so damn strong is we overproduce before a war hits. We have enough shit to fight basically everyone at the same time just sitting in the desert waiting with new stuff being added and the old being updated or scrapped. If you wait for a war to start before you do that you're going to lose a lot of the required workforce to actually fighting that war. If you have military readiness problems and you're on the same side of the Atlantic as Russia then you need to get your shit sorted BEFORE it becomes an issue. Tanks constantly down? Drop the 3rd worlders for 5 minutes and get them fixed. Short on ammo? Stop funding DEI games and make more munitions. Planes constantly grounded due to maintenance problems? Figure it the fuck out. When the war actually comes all of that becomes much harder to successfully do.

>>63812025
With Cechnya and Georgia the Russians managed to spin the public opinion that their opponents were to blame. They tried provoking Ukraine and fabricating justifications but at that point it was obvious to everybody but the most hardcore Russophiles.
The main reason why people doubted the attack was that it wasn't feasible as Ukraine is far larger than Georgia or Chechnya.

>>63820307
Making the US look unreliable and weak is "unfavorable" to political careers in general. If we were just like Russia I'd expect treaties to be broken the instant we didn't like them for whatever reason. I fully expect the US to honor it's treaties and generally to only stop because the treaty was formally ended.

This whole line of "The US is totes ma gotes going to just leave everyone hanging!" is vatnik propaganda bullshit.

>>63820328
>The EU's own behavior is not just why Russia is so bold, but also why there's any risk of the US saying "Fuck this, I'm out" with NATO.
Putting all the blame on the EU is retarded as America didn't do shit either, and bitching about EU preparedness is also retarded since we restructured our militaries to better help America in its sandbox expeditions (which didn't benefit us at all).
I'm in no way saying the EU didn't fuck up, but acting like it's all our fault is one of the most retarded positions you can take.
America abandoning NATO is, once again, purely an American thing, nowhere in the North Atlantic Treaty is there such a thing as a "minimum spending requirement", the 2% is a guideline.

>>63820346
I’m not going to lie I am being very pessimistic, but I don’t think that’s unreasonable given that I have Putin supporting vatniks in my family and where I work. No shit I had one of my coworkers actually drop the “Ukrainian warcrimes” propaganda to me irl. Just seems to me like if this shit kicked off we’d hear the same shit we do now:
>they’re just little russians bro who cares
>the junk I buy at walmart is too expensive or something
And now of course a great many members of the governing body are active Putin supporters as well.

>>63820201
Who are the others? The Americans? I give them shit, but at least they tried to stamp down on shit like Nordstream.

>>63800849
Actually that doctrine changed. Baltic defense now aims to stop the ziggers on the border, because they've seen what ziggers do to civilian populations in occupied areas.

>>63820383
Plenty of Europeans stamped on shit like Nordstream as well, and you can't forget that the "they can't be *that* retarded" school of thought was omnipresent in the West prior to 2022.
Trying to paint the whole EU with the same brush because one member state did something dumb is retarded.

>>63820383
the only reason the US cared/cares about Northstream and other Eu imports of russian hydrocarbon imports is because they want to the Europeans to buy their much more expensive hydrocarbons

>>63820397
Fair enough. For the most part I was talking about some of the western states like Germany, not Poland or the Balts, who did protest it.

Nordic Airforces alone would get air-superiority over the baltics and the northwestern federal district of russia before the euro reinforcement could even arrive.

Why would they need a Maginot line? For Russians? They don't need such defensive measures, they will easily cuck the buckbroken Russian army with their superior gear and training

>>63812016
People said Russia would never invade Ukraine because it was a retarded idea. People are saying Russia won't invade the Baltics because of realistic assumptions that Russia is unable to muster the manpower and materiel to launch and sustain a successful invasion of the Baltics at the very least without compromising its war in Ukraine.

>>63821346
>Russia is unable to muster the manpower and materiel to launch and sustain a successful invasion of the Baltics at the very least without compromising its war in Ukraine
ie. It would be retarded
ie. russia is totally capable of trying it
They may not succeed, but they still can do a lot of damage
And not preparing because "lmao they're too weak anyay" is the best way to help them succeed

>>63800721 (OP)
extremely bad idea. good luck unearthing russians from those positions if they manage to capture them. they are probably the worlds best at digging in.

instead you deforest whole big, wide and long ass strip for a massive baltic wide killzone. NATO will not first strike even if they are massing troops a few kilometers from baltic borders and ready to roll in greenmen style.

I can't be the only one thinking this.

>>63821404
The Baltics are NATO members. Invading Ukraine was ill-advised, invading the Baltics is literal suicide. They won't even have to fight the Russians, just surrender immediately and wait two or three days for Moscow to be glassed.

>>63821513
>implying you want to unearth the russians from those positions while they are at the literal border

Vilnius is like 30 km from the border, I would prefer them getting mulched in those positions rather than my commieblock in the city.

>>63821626
By who?

>>63821513
>good luck unearthing russians from those positions if they manage to capture them
Just put bunch of remote explosives under each bunker.

>>63821634
Probably by China at that point because even they can no longer watch the retardion

>>63821626
Again, you seriously underestimate russian retardation
Yes, they'll be crushed eventually, but they'll have time to do a lot of damage before
When the local crackhead looks like he wants to stab you, you don't stand still in the middle of the street with your hands in your pockets, even if the cops are just a few minutes away

>>63821652
Right, so nobody. Can't wait for all these made up whore countries to get liquidated. Then Finland, Georgia and rest.

>>63821737
Russia is liquidating itself pretty fast right now

>>63821739
You don't have to keep pretending anymore. Russia keeps pushing from the east and opens up new fronts. Ukrops can't keep up.
Nobody really cares about the "Eastern flank" and they will get fucked eventually.

>>63821750
>Russia keeps pushing from the east and opens up new fronts. Ukrops can't keep up.
Indeed, it'll all be over in a fortnight

>>63821750
>keeps pushing
if you keep pushing and nothing moves, it's called failure.

>>63821760
>Winning too slowly
Still winning. Maybe the supposed sole superpower should try that instead of their "wins".

>>63821737
I could measure the progress they've made in the last two years with a ruler

>>63821773
And I can hold the Moon between my fingers.

>>63821770
>suffer over million casualties in a over 3 year war that should have taken a couple of weeks
>fear the mighty bear we will be in Berlin in two weeks
at this point it's fair to say that the fucking belgians are more impressive

>>63821780
Nah it's actually 6 million, you stupid or smth? Shouldn't oinkers start winning with Russians taking casualties like that?

>>63821770
They're not winning at all, they're stalemated. Just like they have been for the last 3 years.

>>63821802
You have pretty distorted view of a stalemate.

>>63821813
A stalemate is when you spend 3 years fighting without achieving anything at all.

>>63821815
And you are the last word on what they have and have not achieved?

>>63821813
You have a pretty weird definition of "winning"
20 million dead mobiks by 2040, yeah?

>>63821823
>regime change
hasn't happened
>destroy the Ukrainian army
stronger than in 2022
>for them to abandon the West
closer and more integrated then ever
>destroy Ukrainian nationalism, so called "de-nazification"
stronger than ever
>annex those 4 oblasts
doesn't even control one of them fully
wow so much win

>>63806915
Well it kinda worked, for a while

>>63821833
>stronger than in 2022
Kek. Unlimited money and only what they can show for is how "difficult" the situation is on the front and systemic problems. But also bazillion enemies killed. At what point we will start seeing real results?
Whatever Russians have done is certainly more than Zelenski's crew. Or maybe 1/5th of one's country doesn't matter, who knows.

>>63821845
The difference is that Ukraine just needs to hold on to eventually win, and they're doing that fine. It's not a symmetrical conflict.

>>63821850
What, are they waiting for another Tunguska but in Moscow and then move back in?

>>63821845
>Unlimited money
Shalom my fellow patriot.
I think you should ask your handler to upgrade your propaganda. You also forgot to mention how Russia is fighting the whole world so they have to take it slowly.

>>63821857
It didn't take a meteor to make the soviets eventually pull out of Afghanistan.

>>63821874
Sadly for Ukrainian terrorists, they don't have American support anymore like the Muhajideen. Also Ukraine belongs to the Russian core unlike Afghanistan.

>>63821879
Cores do not exist in real life, and even if they did, Russian cores would be only Moscow and Petersburg

>>63821879
>core provinces
go back to videogames, nerd

>>63821879
When can we expect Russia to take Kiev? Next week? Two years? 20 years?

>>63821888
False. Russian core covers all from Kiev to Smolensk, Moscow and so forth. All the Princely lands in other terms.

>>63821904
Nah.

>>63821904
Pretty sure those were rightfully Lithuanian clay.

>>63821945
By the Grace of God, We, the Great Sovereign, Tsar and Grand Prince Alexei Mikhailovich, Autocrat of all Great, Little and White Russia, Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod, Tsar of Kazan, Tsar of Astrakhan, Tsar of Siberia, Sovereign of Pskov and Grand Prince of Tver, Yugorsk, Perm, Vyatka, Bulgar and others, Sovereign and Grand Prince of Novgorod of the Lower Land, Chernigov, Ryazan, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Beloozero, Udoria, Obdoria, Kondia, and Ruler of all the Northern Countries, the Sovereign of the Iverian Lands, the Kartlian and Georgian Tsars and the Kabardian Lands, the Cherkasy and Mountainous Princes and many other States and Lands of the East and West, and the North from Father and Grandfather, and Heir, and Sovereign, and Possessor.
>>63821955
Sneakily taken while Moscow was struggling against the Mongols. Yet the thieves got butthurt when their turn came.

>>63821967
And where is the Tsar?

>>63821967
>By the Grace of God, We, the Great Sovereign, Tsar and Grand Prince Alexei Mikhailovich, Autocrat of all Great, Little and White Russia, Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod, Tsar of Kazan, Tsar of Astrakhan, Tsar of Siberia, Sovereign of Pskov and Grand Prince of Tver, Yugorsk, Perm, Vyatka, Bulgar and others, Sovereign and Grand Prince of Novgorod of the Lower Land, Chernigov, Ryazan, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Beloozero, Udoria, Obdoria, Kondia, and Ruler of all the Northern Countries, the Sovereign of the Iverian Lands, the Kartlian and Georgian Tsars and the Kabardian Lands, the Cherkasy and Mountainous Princes and many other States and Lands of the East and West, and the North from Father and Grandfather, and Heir, and Sovereign, and Possessor.
You Babylonian scullion, Macedonian wheelwright, brewer of Jerusalem, goat-fucker of Alexandria, swineherd of Greater and Lesser Egypt, pig of Armenia, Podolian thief, catamite of Tartary, hangman of Kamyanets, and fool of all the world and underworld, an idiot before God, grandson of the Serpent, and the crick in our dick. Pig’s snout, mare’s arse, slaughterhouse cur, unchristened brow, screw your own mother!

>>63821973
Irrelevant. After 1917, his authority was transferred to the people and by extension, to the Russian state.

>>63821978
Russian state is a fake and its authority is not recognized.

>>63821981
Delusional.

>>63821985
Indeed, anyone who thinks russia is legitimate state is delusional.

>>63821988
Yes, everyone else is crazy. Not you.

>>63821993
Everyone else will see the truth too eventually.

>>63821404
It's not "they're too weak anyways" it is keeping realistic assumptions about what your military is likely to face because all your equipment and personnel cost money to acquire and upkeep. It'd be great if the Baltics built their military around Russian dick-stroking numbers and capabilities from a decade ago but budgets are finite and have to cover many more things. Considering we're looking at Russia's experienced military core practically extinct, its military stockpiles gutted, its industrial capacity insufficient, its economy and demographics in the shitter in a way that might be unrecoverable for generations, a million casualties being a realistic number, and their tactics reduced to being trickling out barely trained troops towards the front line and bombarding where the gunfire is coming from, it's not complacency to ask how exactly is Russia going to pull it off. That's not even getting into the fact that no one is going to buy Russia's bullshit, they're not going to wait until three days before the invasion to begin mobilizing their forces, and they're certainly not going to sit by while Russia positions its troops on their border for a year. So in the event that Russia manages to scrounge up enough churkas, mobiks, Ladas, and motorcycles with bathtubs attached what's to stop the Baltics from preemptively striking Russian forces using Ukraine as a justification? Hell, I'd go as far as to say that the Russian military is so depleted that an invasion of the Baltics is more likely to see the Baltics conquer Kaliningrad than Russia taking any meaningful amount of territory.

>>63821868
Posting social media screengrabs with relative or no timestamps should result in immediate death by drone strike.
>>63821879
Yes, the Russian core province is Kiev. Not Moscow. Muscovites shouldn't even use the name Rus.

>>63819915
It's because Europe's leaders have shuffled quite often (except Merkel but she's retarded) so during their time in office each of Putin's aggressions was their first experience

>>63809700
Yea these bogs no joke crew had not time to bail out