Thread 63818364

I just don't understand.

Justify the PS90 as something other than a gun which is artisanally crafted to murder hero cops with its armor-piercing bullets and 50 round clips.

>>63818373
*clipazines

>>63818364 (OP)
It exists as la living testament to the fact that 9mmfags don't believe a word of what they say when it comes to the eternal caliber debate.

It exists as an artifact of the 1990 NATO competition for what was named a 'PDW' (personal defense weapon) for rearguard troops.
As it turned out neither of these firearms were officially widely adopted by NATO or its armies, were subsequently sold by both FN & HK to various militaries and police.
FN went on to shill their cartridge on civilian market, now a few decades later there are U.S. market firearm manufacturers building guns chambered for it.

(HK's 4.6×30mm was only ever used for their MP7 as even the company's dedicated handgun in that chambering was dropped)

Because it's based

>>63818433
This is the main reason I’m grateful for 5.7. I’m not the biggest fan of the cartridge itself, but as long as it exists, you can point to it and ask “if all handgun calibers are equal and only capacity and recoil matter, why not use that” (and price is scarcely an excuse, it literally doesn’t take as much practice to become proficient with a lighter recoiling round).

>>63818364 (OP)
>>63818364 (OP)
>only capacity and recoil matter, why not use that

And shot placement. And volume of fire with controllable autistic competition splits. A non-MP5 PCC is going to have more recoil than ideal-- 5.7mm vitiates that with a lot more capacity.

>>63818373
The small statured deserve a fighting chance with a non-AR that isn't kicking more than one.

The Soviets introduced the 6B2 and 6B3 ballistic vests in the early 80s, which were soft aramid with a grid of titanium plates. In the 6B2 the titanium plates were 1.5mm thick and could protect against pistol rounds, and in the 6B3 the front plates were 6.5mm thick and could stop commonly issued ball or steel core rifle rounds.

The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan started, and the reports of their effectiveness and captured samples started to come in, and the NATO brass got freaked out. They had visions of Soviet paratroopers wearing these slaughtering rear-eschelon troops armed with 9mm SMGs, which were very much in vogue at the time, especially among the militaries of western Europe. This was way before the AR-15 platform became the modular system it is today. In fact, this was just around the time that the M16A2 was being adopted, with one of its main reasons for being that its barrel twist rate was optimized for firing green tip M855.

So the NATO brass decided they needed to equip their rear-eschelon types with something that could give them a fighting chance against the hordes of VDV that would inevitably be parachuted in, and they decided that thing was a better SMG with new armor-piercing ammunition. So they started the personal defense weapon project, and got gun companies to give them a bunch of options, including the 5.7 round from FN and the 4.6 round from H&K.

5.7 makes sense if you have a readily available supply of SS192(?) and are facing mildly armored combatants.
Outside of that it's basically just .22WMR on PCP.

It's a modernized 22LR/22WMR. More reliable priming system and case profile for feeding. Modern pressures. Modern copper jacketed bullets. A fast twist rate that enables relatively heavy subsonics. Reloadable with common .22 caliber bullets.

Only poors and people who can't handload don't like it.

>>63818364 (OP)
5.7, 4.6, the P90, MP7 and FN five seven all exist in the first place due to a nato requirement from the late 80s/early 90s where they wanted basically an M1 carbine, but smaller, full auto and capable of piercing body armor in case the commies came threw the folda gap in the 90s and paradropped a bunch of special forces onto army bases so support troops would have a weapon to shoot back with and also there was a requirement for a a companion handgun.
FN made the P90 and five seven, HK made the MP7. By the time each gun was made the cold war was over and either belgium or germany, I think it was germany, threw a hissy fit because the other gun was adopted so nato adopted both
the P90 got sold to like the equivalent of the secret service for a lot of countries and cities on the basis it looks bitching and is small. the mp7 got used by special forces as a bullet hose.
For some reason the local sheriff's department by me bought P90s and five sevens and issued five sevens as the standard issue duty hand gun
Oh and then for some reason I don't understand 25 years later, Kel-tec, Ruger and PSA all released five seven handguns
well actually I should say I understand why Kel-tec did it. kel-tec engineers smoke crystal meth and one of them thought it would be cool. no idea why PSA and ruger did

>>63819173
>, with one of its main reasons for being that its barrel twist rate was optimized for firing green tip M855.
you could fire m855 with like a 1 in 9 twist. the 1 in 7 is for the longer m856 tracer
good post though

>>63818364 (OP)
PDW round for P90 to arm German and French rear echelons from Soviet invasion. As a pistol round you have a small diameter, high velocity necked and angled case.

Honestly just the same idea as the 7.62x25 Tokarev from a hundred years ago.

>>63819372
>kel-tec engineers smoke crystal meth
I got a dirt cheap r50 on clearance for the cyberpunk meme, I fucking love it and use it for HD now. 50 rounds that dump all the energy into whatever it hits so less overpen and I won't go deaf. No malfunctions.

>>63818955
>“if all handgun calibers are equal and only capacity and recoil matter, why not use that”
marginal gains not outweighing the cost of replacement.

>>63818364 (OP)
To fight the Goa'uld

>>63819422
neat, it doesn't change the fact that the idea for that design came to one of the kel tec workers in a crack pipe dream
>what if we make a P90 but the mag is on the inside

>>63819414
>Honestly just the same idea as the 7.62x25 Tokarev from a hundred years ago.
no, the idea for the tokarev was that the russians were poor as shit and wanted all their small arms in .30 cal so they would only need to buy one drill and they could cut fucked up MG and rifle barrels down and reuse them instead of scrapping them

>>63819494
Yeah I'm banking on not reloading. Definitely a fever dream. Stuff and things has a new chassis that fixes that and allows an ar fcg but I think it only works on the p50.
I have good results with fn ammo and Mags despite the milkbottle plastic/screw/meth construction.

>>63819427
>3 more rounds
>like 30% less recoil
>potential for soft body armor penetration
If your life is at stake then you can easily afford to sell off one of your 10 unnecessary Glocks or PSAs or whatever (or literally just buy a 5.7 pistol as your next purchase instead of some other useless thing) to make room for something that, if it were simply a new 9mm loading that magically stuffed 3 rounds into hammerspace and kicked significantly less, people would be gooning all over. You don't even have to stop practicing with 9mm, because there's a high degree of carryover from shooting 9mm to shooting 5.7. Not convinced.
The reality is that 9mmfags are uncomfortable with the smaller wound cavities that 5.7 produces, but they don't want to say that because then they'd have to admit that wound volume actually matters and they can't bear to concede that larger calibers might have even this single meaningful advantage over their pet round. Not even that the larger calibers are better overall, just that they do this one thing better and it's relevant.
That is coming from someone carrying a 9mm. It has advantages and disadvantages relative to other calibers, just like most other calibers have tradeoffs relative to each other.

>>63819570
you are projecting hard. Pistol go bang bang bang bang+, bad guy collapses.
J-frame .38s are fine. Overall pistols are cheap and you can own whatever. For self defense you have your nightstand gun and your CCW and they are either available at your time of need or useless.

also 5.7 has a longer grip because the cartridge is 9mm longer. Also probably the why for the Keltec 5.7 pistol not having a detachable magazine.

>>63819613
>you are projecting hard
I don't think you know what that means, but I see that none of this applies to you anyways because you're the type that doesn't like to do too much thinking about their gear, so whatever.

>>63819570
You people are fucking insufferably idiotic. I am convinced you are huffing your own farts. Every single advantage that 5.7 possesses in a handgun over other cartridges is completely irrelivant to your average civilian. Your average civilian does not work in a security field or a high risk environment (working an oil field in a foreign country as an example).
Muh capacity = Really? Name me a realistic situation that I am going to be able to solve with 22 rounds of 5.7 in a single magazine plus a reload (44 total) that I couldn't solve with 8-17 rounds plus a reload (16-34 total) of any other caliber. Won't be holding my breath.
Muh lower recoil and follow up shots = literally a skill issue, literally the most important shot is the first one, literally shot placement and penetration is more important which means a gun that fits your hand and that you shoot well is more important
Muh soft armor penetration = literally irrelivant. If you think it isn't then you're not thinking, because if you're considering armored baddies you better be considering worst case scenario which means plates, which means all your handgun calibers are irrelivant for armor penetration and you should damn well be practicing your Mozambique drills. So again, literally a skill issue that has nothing to do with the cartridge.

I am NOT saying 5.7 is a bad round.
I am NOT saying 5.7 doesn't have it's place or that it's not pretty ideal for certain scenarios.
I am NOT saying you shouldn't use 5.7.
I AM saying 5.7's advantages in a handgun are irrelivant to most people and folks that latch onto those advantages and screech like banshees that those advantages make it superior and better and that it should replace other rounds are fucking idiots.

>>63818364 (OP)
I wanted to like it, but Garand fag's video proved pretty conclusively that it's shit; which makes sense because 5.7 is just a shrunk down version of 5.56 which is also pretty shitty. NATO was just really dumb and never standardized on good cartridges. Everything was always done out of either convenience or as a reaction to whatever the commies were doing.
>well the Germans left all this 9mm all over Belgium and France, so we might as well standardize it even though the Americans and British already have tons of 45 caliber 1911s
>oh shit the Russians are using a 7.62 cartridge for their new assault rifle, so we should also adopt a 7.62 cartridge that's more powerful so we won't get outgunned
>oh shit the commies are mauling us and our shitty M14s in the jungle CQB with their AKs, better overcorrect and adopt a 22-caliber varmint cartridge
>oh shit the commies have bulletproof vests now, better ditch 9mm right after the USA adopted the M9 and switch to babby 5.7x28
>oh shit the vatniks, chinks, and civilians have Level IV armor and we got mauled by dune coons with PKMs at long range in the last war, better ditch 5.56 right after a bunch of new countries joined NATO and switch to bubba's pissin' hot 6.8x51 Sigger cartridge

>>63820026
What the fuck does “irrelivant” mean, your repeated ESL demonstration is embarrassing and painful to read.
Lower recoil will practically always improve accuracy (and surprise surprise, shot placement) all else equal. This isn’t a “skill issue”, it’s “given the exact same level of skill, you can shoot better with a lower recoiling weapon”.
More capacity is also always better, all else equal. So it’s unlikely to ever come into play - so what? It’s a straight upgrade, why would you not want a strict upgrade that stacks the odds in your favor as much as possible.
Soft armor penetration may not be an important factor but decrying it as 100% totally worthless is silly. Unlike Level III vs Level IV, you can actually sometimes tell when someone is wearing soft armor rather than plates, and in some cases you may have a fair expectation that they will be wearing soft armor.
All your arguments against 5.7 are just cope about how the advantages don’t actually matter that much and that’s why you shouldn’t try to get the best thing possible for protecting your life.

By the way, if your reading comprehension had been better, you would have actually realized I don’t like 5.7 that much. In fact I actively prefer other handgun calibers because I expect them to be, for my purposes, more effective on average than 5.7. But the caliber is a wonderful demonstrator of people’s cognitive dissonance and cope - case in point.

>>63820113
I want to live in the timeline where we all adopted the FN FAL but in 7.62x39mm so we could use Soviet ammo stores and I want a nato standard. 45acp M9 beretta.

>>63818364 (OP)
I was incredibly impressed with the p90. It’s light, compact, high capacity, and it’s almost a laser gun even in full auto. While it is a bit of a meme, it is also very good.

>>63819427
>9mm cheaper
The eternal 9fag exposes the real reason they stick with their caliberfu.

>>63818364 (OP)
Because there's less profit in just making armor piercing ammunition for existing 9mm weapons.

>>63820113
>>oh shit the vatniks, chinks, and civilians have Level IV armor and we got mauled by dune coons with PKMs at long range in the last war, better ditch 5.56 right after a bunch of new countries joined NATO and switch to bubba's pissin' hot 6.8x51 Sigger cartridge
Not a single NATO country besides the US has even entertained the idea of adopting SIG's shitty-ass over-pressured cartridge.

>>63820632
>What the fuck does “irrelivant” mean
Look in the mirror.

>>63820873
>+P+++ that only works in a select few guns
>hardened steel penetrator
>loses its AP effectiveness after 25 yards
>based on Russian claims

>>63821245
if the russians could accidentally make a 7.62x25 handgun that could penetrate light armor, I'd say it's safe to say they could intentionally make one.

>>63821401
>>63821245
>Nato: let's spend vast amounts of energy, time and money making this round and guns for it that has no real practical use
>PRC/DPRK: Just make a double stack Tok

>>63821443
I wish the p90 had a functional quad stack magazine system, that way it could hold ninety something rounds.

>>63821466
The constant waste of money on individual weapons and equipment infuriates me, it is utterly wasteful. Every few years we invent new ways to waste billions on things that a irrelevant to the purpose of the military and actively hinder it.

>The choice of individual small arm hasn't affected the outcome of any conflict between near peers since before the Civil War
>After synthetic rubber was invented type of footware doesn't matter
>Handguns are a net liability to any military besides highly specialist roles
>Any duty uniform besides khaki/olive drab/white coveralls is a waste of money
>Separate service branch uniforms are wasteful

No doubt there will tons of 'but what about' examples, those are specialist cases. The vast majority of the time this sort of institutional gear queer mentality is meaningless.

>>63818373
It's fun, and I can larp as an SG team member at the range with it.

>>63821235
Do you know what spell checker and autocorrect are?

>>63819436
goold?

>>63819570
Anon, if I need a handgun with a 20 round magazine, I would just get a 20 or more round magazine for my 2011 or my M&P.

>9mmfags
My heart says .45.
My brain and my wallet says 9mm. I don't have an emotional attachment to the cartridge; it's good enough for what I need it for and I can afford to shoot a bunch of it.

>muh armor piercing
That's what rifles are for.

>>63820672
>FN FAL but in 7.62x39mm
It's a cool idea, but I don't see the point. Why not just use an AK? inbf westerners can't make good AK's.

>45acp M9 beretta
There is that whatever PX-something they ravr about in /hg/. I'm still a 1911 fanboy, but you do you.

That was an really lame alt-history prompt.

>>63822452
>I would just get a 20 or more round magazine for my 2011 or my M&P.
Yes, but you'll be able to get the same capacity in a shorter and narrower magazine with 5.7.

>That's what rifles are for.
I'm not saying it's a big advantage, it isn't really. But all else equal, better armor penetration is almost always a good thing, and there's no real reason to pass it up if you're not losing anything meaningful.

>My brain and my wallet says 9mm.
And that's okay, there's zero problem with assessing the available selection of handgun calibers, weighing the pros and cons, and coming to the logical conclusion that 9mm suits your needs the best. It's a good caliber.
The pejorative in this case applies to a very common breed of NPC who stubbornly insists that 9mm is effectively as good or better than all its competitors in every single way that counts, and when confronted with arguments or evidence to the contrary, plugs their fingers into their ears and goes "lalala I can't hear you" and/or engages in a shocking display of cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy. When it comes to anything where 9mm has an advantage, it's the most important thing ever, but when it comes to anything where 9mm might have a disadvantage, all calibers are equal and everyone gets a gold star.
I use 9mm myself because I think it has acceptable terminal performance and checks the necessary boxes for accuracy, reliability, etc; and more importantly, it's what my preferred factory production handgun platform is chambered in. If I could get it in .45, I would, but I can't, and the .45 handguns I'd actually use are far too expensive for me to purchase at the moment. If I legitimately believed 5.7 were terminally equal, I would get a 5.7 handgun even if it meant making some ergonomic compromises, because the advantages would be too compelling to pass up. I don't, though; my research suggests 5.7 does significantly less damage per shot than 9mm.

>>63818364 (OP)
It a zibby boi

>>63819346
>Only poors and people who can't handload don't like it.

5.7 is absolute CBT to handload which you'd know if you actually handloaded, or owned a 5.7 gun.
>dry lube coated brass that can't be tumbled
>hilariously sensitive to tiny differences in powder load
>god awful neck creep
>everything is small and a bitch to handle

>>63818364 (OP)
You're supposed to use to end of it as a toothpick

>>63823762
I don't have anything 5.7, but I am a handloader.
>dry lube coated brass that can't be tumbled
that's new to me. would you try to replicate the dry lube somehow?
and jesus that shoulder reminds me of .303 brit - you do a lot of work on the brass when fl sizing them back
the hell happened to the one on the right? it looks like it was fired out of battery

>>63825310
>that's new to me. would you try to replicate the dry lube somehow?
Many tried, almost everyone failed, the only sort-of success is Elite Ammunition's case lacquer for $50 a can.
FN is the sole supplier of something like 99.99% 5.7 brass on the market, only EA makes their own. No one else feels like bothering.
The solution to being unable to tumble clean is to carefully agitate the brass in lukewarm water with some detergent, which doesn't do a great job cleaning the brass but is better than nothing.

>the hell happened to the one on the right? it looks like it was fired out of battery
A moderately hot handload.
FN P(S)90 uses a direct blowback bolt and the case is perfectly straight walled so that it doesn't jam up in the straight magazine.
This combination is what necessitates the case lube (so it extracts at all) and also results in this kind of horrid neck creep.

Better question is why does it make 9fags shid and fard when they've been shilling MUH CAPACITY AND VELOCITY for years now

>>63818433
Checked, based, /thread
>>63818955
dubs of truth itt

>>63821401
neck down a SS109 into a Tok case with an accelerator sabot

>>63818373
Not the hero cops!

>>63825429
Too poor for it

>>63818364 (OP)
It doesn't have more momentum
It doesn't have more diameter
It doesn't have more energy
It doesn't leave a larger wound channel
Because magic? Its a dumb idea that dumb people like who don't understand basic terminal ballistics let alone pistol caliber terminal ballistics.
We are supposed to believe its better, even though in every metric that matters its worse.
High capacity?
You get a lot of shit instead of a reasonable amount of something else that works.
Flatter trajectory?
At distances that that matters one should be using a rifle. Double mog instead of single on that one.
Fuck the 5.7. Fuck the 5.7 shills. Fuck the retards who are dumb enough to buy the 5.7

>>63818364 (OP)
Would a shortened version of 6.5 creedmoor be a good idea for a new handgun caliber.

Basically 6.5 creedmoor but the overall length is shortened to 1.6 inches, making it equivalent to the 5.7 over all length.

And it travelling at 2000 fps from a 4 inch barrel. Would this be a more practical idea? Of course the bullet would weigh less than 120 grains.

>>63818364 (OP)
It has precisely one nonretarded use and that's to larp as a SG1 member while at the range.

>>63819414
.30 mauser was as an officer's pistol not for rear echelon

>>63818364 (OP)
>pic related

>>63818364 (OP)
>oh no the Russians are issuing body armor!
>what if our cooks and truck drivers have to fight the VDV in WW3
>let's make a gun that's smaller than a rifle, but still big enough to defeat body armor
Simple as

>>63825446
Almost a shame there isn't a more cost effective way for poors and browns to kill each other off for good

>>63818373
Why? Dead zogbots is a good thing

>>63820113
>which makes sense because 5.7 is just a shrunk down version of 5.56 which is also pretty shitty.
No, that would be .221 Remington Fireball, which is an order of magnitude more effective. Even .22 TCM, which is 5.56 cut down so far that it fits in a 9mm magazine is more powerful from a 5" pistol barrel than 5.7 is from a 10" P90 barrel.