>https://www.twz.com/sea/troubled-constellation-frigate-is-now-at-least-759-metric-tons-overweight
>The U.S. Navy’s future Constellation class frigates are set to be at least 759 metric tons (close to 867 U.S. tons) heavier than expected, a 13 percent increase over earlier estimates. Concerns have previously been raised about how weight growth with the Constellation class design, which was still being finalized as of April, could negatively impact the ships’ top speed and other capabilities. Overall, the frigate program, the entire point of which was to leverage an existing in-production design to help reduce risk and speed up delivery, remains years behind schedule and at risk of ballooning costs

Seriously, why are the US always struggling to build something other than carriers and subs?

Because a lot of the problems are
>Okay we need this thing to do X Y
>then as they're building it somebody goes 'It needs to do Z too'
>then that's added and somebody else goes 'it needs to do Q because it does Z now'
>then that's added and somebody else goes 'well it needs R now to support Q'
And that's when you get issues. It happens even in video games where you can design stuff. I do it. You can build, lets say for the sake of an example, giant battleships, but you go 'No I need a frigate' so you start designing a frigate and you look at all your options and you go 'Oh well I'll need that, then I'll need this, if I encounter this I'll need that...' and by then you've built a battleship. Sometimes you gotta accept a thing won't have capabilities you want.

How long until Hegseth scraps this project as well?

>>63821087
Ferret face will likely get the boot in the near future.

>>63821064 (OP)
>twz
>ever

>>63821082
This is what they did with the LCS, they haven’t learned this lesson. The USN does not have the temperament for small ships

>>63821064 (OP)
Meanwhile after making 2 frigates in 400 days the Norks are already building two more. It looks like all the hull plates they were stacking while the righted the last one weren't to repair it, they started work on another one before they cleared off the dock.

>>63821087
Doubtfull, as this contract was awarded by Donnie in his last term
>i only sign the best deals

They are trying to tweak them to be about as durable as the old Perrys.
Which is a major problem, since there is literally no frigate design which satisfies that requirement. Current frigate designs emphasize sensors and weaponry over survivability.

>>63821064 (OP)
>she's overweight
perfect

>>63821155
Like how Trump went back on USMCA, Trump will try to renegotiate the deal causing delays.

>>63821097
So its not over budget, over weight and way behind schedule?

>>63821124
Realistically, how can they be small if there's a requirement of blue water capability so that they can cross the Pacific in case of war? A corvette that hangs around near Los Angeles might have some limited use for the Coast Guard, not the US Navy

>>63821202

A Fletcher Class Destroyer was 2100 tons. That did just fine. The lard ass Constellation is at 9000 tons and growing.

>>63821239
Where did you pull that number? Latest figures have it at around 7500 tons.

>>63821064 (OP)
Even the ships are obese

>get an off the shelf design
>still managed to pull off the same bloating routine like with the LCS
Are Burgeroids legitimately retarded?

>>63821252

Now add in the lard from the article, and what do you get?

> A Frigate that weighs more than an Escort Carrier.

That's fun.

>>63821263
That was with all the lard added, the original design was supposed to be around 6400 tons.

>>63821064 (OP)
>The U.S. Navy’s future Constellation class frigates are set to be at least 759 metric tons (close to 867 U.S. tons) heavier than expected
What, did they finally ad the crew into the weight budget?

>>63821270

*sigh*

The Wikipedia weight of 7300 is back from 2021. Check the footnote. Now add lard. That's 8100.

If you disagree -- fine. Just wait until after the Budget passes and it will "unexpectedly" gain another 1000 tons.

> 8000 tons
> Main Battery is a 2 inch gun

Just makes you feel tired sometime.

>>63821395
It's because BAe Bofors have a deathgrip on all US naval artillery. And they don't sell any 76.2 mm cannons. They only have the 5'' and the 57 mm. The last 76.2 mm cannons and ammo were turned over to the USCG something like 20 years ago.

JUST BUY A DAMN STOCK FREMM

>>63821082
This, plus
>Oh shit we heard the Chinese are investing in P, so we need O to counter China's P. Also we need our own P.
>Also don't forget we need L to counter coastal insurgents in the Middle East with about a mile's worth of force projection

>>63821064 (OP)
>reformertard thread
Hardly any ship in history has ever come in at the initially projected weight, and one or two recent events have created new requirements that must be addressed

>>63821463

If the 57mm had thousands of rounds in the magazine, that wouldn't be great but it would be something. But from Googling the Constellation gun will have about the same amount of rounds as a Bradley IFV.

>>63821490
They initially did that.
Then the brainworms set in, and demanded the frigate *HAS* to facetank AShMs, like the old OHP, despite *literally* no current frigate, from any bureau across the entire world, being designed to do that.

>>63821510
Standard magazine (deep stores) for the Mk 110 is 1000 rounds.

>>63821501

> It's okay that every single Navy ship is overweight, over budget, late and don't meet spec because -- it just is okay!

>>63821514
They also spent time and money designing a new bow without a sonar

>>63821522

Standard is:

Including the two 20-round cassettes, and four 20-round ready use and intermediate magazines, a total of 120 rounds can be held ready on the mount itself.

Beyond that, the options are magazine below, or hand loaded non deck penetrating version. Counting recall which the USS Fatty Pants is using. And since once again the Navy is changing the design as they build, who knows what it ends up with.

it's funny because people say that The Pentagon Wars is unfair in its criticism for the development of the M2 Bradley, especially in the leadup to their transfer to Ukraine. But I imagine exactly what happened in the movie is what is happening now in the clusterfuck that's taking place with the Constellation class.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA

>>63821064 (OP)
The Navy needed a new destroyer, they were told they weren't allowed to build it, now they still need those capabilities but in other ships.

>>63821463
>americans aren't part of the OTO Melara master race
grim

>>63821681
Yes they are? They have the OTO Melara 76mm on the Famous-class.

>>63821631
>I imagine

"Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth acknowledged today the Pentagon is reviewing the Constellation-class frigate noting it was... one of several "difficult decisions" slated to be made"
(paywalled)
https://insidedefense.com/daily-news/hegseth-indicates-frigate-program-chopping-block

It's getting Booker'd and E-7'd, this is a procurement disaster.

>>63821774
they are really slashing all running programs in favor of their golden dome pipe dream, god help us

>>63821827
Golden Dome has to be the most economically retarded shit I have seen procurement wise in decades. We can only hope we end up with a Star Wars style cancellation at some point in the next year or two

>>63821164
This. Going to the FREMM was a mistake in this regard and they should have gone with a new design

>>63821827
>>63821842
There is a reason the whole Nike-X, Safeguard, and Sentinel all got cancelled. There is no reasonable way to protect against a mass ICBM attack without bankrupting yourself in the process

>>63821853
The unfortunate thing about this is that there was no winning move. It would have taken an extra 5-10 years to come up with a clean sheet design. And by then it would be so big and bloated they'd either cancel it outright or call it DDG(X) and use it to replace the Burkes, thus requiring another frigate program.

The navy wants to have it all ways and they're constantly fucking themselves in the ass because of it.

>>63821514
Retiring the Perry's was a mistake, but VLS crowd won the day

>>63821827
Even with the 150bil bump this defense budget is flat and they've got drunken monkies running the show

>>63821681
We used to be. OHPs and some smaller vessels had the 76mms a while back.
>>63821501
This frigate is closing on the cost and weight of a Burke.

>>63821861

Turks have done fine adding VLS to their Perrys, but somehow that was beyond the US Navy.

>>63821890
Only 8 cells, far from enough. Arguably Constellation didn't have enough either

>>63821909

> capability to launch up to eight SM-1 missiles and up to 36 RIM-162 Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles (ESSM) for air defense, significantly enhancing their air defense capabilities.

Think they'll do just fine in any contemporary scenario.

>>63821926
I had 16 cells in my head, think I was day dreaming about the Mogami
32 is gud.

>>63821082
I see you also bought Rule The Waves 3.

>>63821064 (OP)
Shamefu dispray, why are American ship builders so lazy and incompetent?

http://kcna.kp/en/article/q/02d9ab5a588675d5d26a2254e9ea9f73.kcmsf

>>63822594
I don't know when the last time a USN warship sank leaving the slipway, but it wasn't in my lifetime.

>>63821064 (OP)
700 tons extra is nothing

>>63822659
July 2020, it just caught fire spontaneously while sitting there. The US was so incompetent they couldn't fix it or figure out why:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Bonhomme_Richard_(LHD-6)

Sadly the US hasn't learned damage control or basic repair.

>>63821662
>finding out that the way to replace the capabilities of a destroyer with another ship when you can't build new destroyers is to mission-creep a rowboat into a destroyer

It’s not "troubled", faggots, let me explain it to eceleb-programmed anons: the Constellation’s acquisition is NORMAL. This how the game works:
1. Navy puts out a very low award contract with x capabilities.
2. Contractor who is most willing to accept the low award amount while promising the requested capabilities (ie, they lie) wins.
3. The contractor inevitably slips in delivery timeline because they desperately try to control costs which they know they must eat.
4. The Navy helps them out by reducing capabilities where it’s too difficult for the contractor and accepts the contractor’s changes.
5. Neither the Navy or contractor ever blames the one another for the failed delivery date and design changes.
So what’s going on here? What’s the game they’re playing? Simple: trading capital cost for lifetime support services. The Navy drives down acquisition award price for political reasons (securing the budget), and a contractor who is willing to play along and eat the development and construction costs will make money in the long run with lifetime support and further orders once the line is established. The Navy gets the ships at a reasonable cost by forcing the contractor to eat the real cost which thereby forces the contractor to drive up productivity to the maximum extent, and in exchange for helping the Navy they get decades of very lucrative on-going contracts which the contractor’s gold standard for income.

But the public is not presented with thus real picture of the process. Instead all we see are the Senate hearings and budget reports etc bitching about failing timelines and "broken" acquisition processes. Not a single dumb eceleb nigger EVER asks the question "Wait, WHY is it always like this? Why does the system work this way and why does it never change?" Well, if you naturally look at the world and think "why is something the way it is" you are a high-IQ person and much fewer things are mysteries to you. Glad I could make /k/ smarter.

>>63821064 (OP)
Just build a cruiser already you faggots. These understaffed vessels are little more than kevlar-clad caskets in a shooting war.

>>63821239
Fletcher can't hold modern radar systems and more importantly wouldn't had been used as an improvised cruiser the way modern USN destroyers are, hence why they have cruiser-like mass (but not a cruiser's complement of crew.)

>>63822686
>After a lengthy investigation into the cause of the fire, a sailor was charged with arson but was acquitted at trial.[3][4]
Most honest thirdie.

>>63822686
It did not catch fire spontaneously, it was started by an angry Seaman who lit cardboard boxes on fire in the vehicle bay. Although it’s still true that a lack of fire preparedness while at dock was what ultimately led to the ship’s loss.

>>63822841
Exploding inflation and lack of recruitment means no cruisers. Everything has to be small and automated now.

>>63822686
Where slipway?

>>63822954
Sorry, multipolarbro but the Navy beat their recruitment target last year.

>>63822686
>The US was so incompetent they couldn't fix it
Our definition of "fix" is more than giving it a new paint job and insisting everything's fine thanks to the power of Juche/Upholding Xi Jinping Thought.

>>63822686
>Sadly the US hasn't learned damage control or basic repair.

>>63823013
Okay cool, and active service personnel is still down 100k since 30 years ago. Do you not understand why the US stopped acquiring cruisers and other major combatants and got into the LCS? The Navy itself doesn’t even WANT to be the size it used to be, the current numbers reality (mainly budget but also recruitment) defines what they can even reach for.

>>63821202
perry class with vls up front and a new radar is more than enough for a frigate

>>63823069
>Do you not understand why the US stopped acquiring cruisers and other major combatants
?

>>63823069
>active service personnel is still down 100k since 30 years ago.
Yeah, I know China's trying their best but they aren't really the sort of adversary you can use to sell a 600-ship navy to the voters.

>>63821064 (OP)
>Amerifat frigate
>it’s overweight
lol

>>63821501
>one or two recent events have created new requirements that must be addressed
what events?

>>63821064 (OP)
>we're overweight, there isn't enough room
>ok make it bigger
>add more weapons
>we're too big and have become the target and we're overweight again
>make it smaller
>cycle repeats
Same as it ever was since WWII

>>63821774
>and E-7'd
What's wrong with Wedgetail?

>>63823579
Hegseth slashed it

>>63823095
>same length as perry
>same overall dimensions and weight, just the superstructure modified
>32 cell vls for sm-2/6 and essm up front
>aesa radar
>put a 57mm in place of the 76mm
>replace everything with new equivalents
>single helo
done

>>63821631
The movie is basically a documentary and happened pretty much as depicted.

>>63823579
not survivable enough in a modern war

>>63822812
This sounds somewhat reasonable and quite efficient.
Which is why it cannot be true.
Military procurement is one of the most hilarious clusterfucks in existance, especially in peacetime.

>>63824017
>E-7
>not survivable enough in a modern war

Ok hear me out. The US has a handful of B-1 airframes left.
Not enough to really replace B-52s, and also kinda too expensive to lug JDAMs, and not stealthy ...
But they could be retrofitted with F119 engines, like in the B-1R concept and have an AESA array slapped on them.
Fill one bomb bay with an extra fuel tank to extend the range, and the other one with defensive air-to-air missiles to shoot down incoming ones.
It can efficiently loiter with the F119s on low thrust settings and wings swept forward.
But it can also supercruise into and out of theater quickly to respond to the situation dynamically and get out of harms way, and if shit gets really tight it can light the afterburners and zoom out of the shitheap at Mach 2.2
The lack of stealth is irrelevant for an AWACS which sends out massive amounts of radar waves anyways.

it's an italian frigate btw. this is all fault of those dirty wops trying to fleece honest american industries.

>>63824017
>space-based assets
right

>>63821064 (OP)
the same person that had the lcs project on its hands is the same that has the connie project on his hands

KevinR. Smith

sould tell you something

>>63824472
>KevinR. Smith
i knew they should have let jay be in charge instead

>>63824472
What does the R. stand for?

>>63821064 (OP)
Was it not precisely to avoid this that an existing design was selected? What the fuck are the Navy doing?

>>63824291
those, but also more numerous smaller airborne ones

>>63824472
if these morons were around during ww2, you'd have dds turning into cls and cas. they just can't envision a highly numerous and relatively capable vessel that's good enough as an escort.

>>63821064 (OP)
Now they can shitcan it and start working on AB flight IV, to prepare for the inevitable cancelation of DDG(X). This time with the US version of The Cube™ (designed by Euro MIC, incompatible with actual EuroCubes)

Alternatively, WNT style weight restrictions. Give designers 8000 tons to work with, but no more. In this case, you could tell USN to fuck off, when they ask "just one more capability, bro. I am not addicted, I swear it will fix everything and create a perfection"

Do you have any idea how fucking TRIVIAL it is to build a fucking ship these days?
We have literally HUNDREDS of years of experience with hull shapes.
We have fucking computational fluid dynamics, finite element analysis, modal analysis .... you can simulate how the fucking ship hull will SOUND once the wife of some fat scumbag politician throws the champagne bottle at it before building it.
Weapons? You used to have to make some sort of an effort. Now it's like "ok let me guess, you want a gun in the front, and how many VLS cells?" Not exactly fucking rocket surgery.
Propulsion? There's 9001 gas turbines, gearboxes and props available off the shelf, optimized to death since it's the 5th or 6th generation of this shit close to the theoretical maximum thermodynamic efficiency physics allows, with maybe 5% left on the table tops.
Like there's no more surprises. You pick the capability you want, you pick the parts, and you resize the hull from your last project up or down a couple % and call it a day.
There isn't even anymore bespoke data busses or anything, you just hook everything up to a mil standard bus which is a glorified ethernet, and everything on these buckets is driven by an electric motor by now so all you need is a powercable and a network cable to everywhere and you're done.
A fucking solo rookie engineer fresh from the university could systems integrate this shit in a month cause there's basically no problems left to solve.

>>63824735
>Give designers 8000 tons to work with, but no more.

They'll make it out of aluminium to cram 4 more VLS cells in.

>>63824865
Then why don't you apply for a position at marinette marine, smartass?

>>63821064 (OP)
nobody ITT knows anything at all about warship design, both current and past practice, and it shows badly

>>63824646
>t. doesn't know jack shit about WW2 warship development, spergs anyway

Meanwhile in the DPRK:
>'Make me a couple of missile destroyers'
>400 days later: receive missile destroyers >Fuck up launching one of them
>'Fix it'
>A few weeks later:' It's fixed'
>'Make two more, a missile cruiser and a sub'
>'Right away Sir!'

>>63821064 (OP)
Is that after they put the crew on it or what?

>>63825041
Okay, now let's see it shoot at something. Go on, we're all watching (from a safe distance).

>>63825210
OK

>>63825231

>>63825236

>>63825240

>>63825231
Oops, used the corvette not the first Choe Hyon class...Wait wait, no i'm sorry Kim Yo Jong not the sweaty foot again aaaahhhhhh..

*garbled foot in mouth noises*


>This poster was sent to the dank room for sock based correction and remedial shitposting instruction

>>63821064 (OP)
>go for a ship based on a ready-made design to save time and money
>change it and add shit to the point massive changes are needed, thereby nullifying the advantages of an off-the-shelf design
Who the fuck makes these decisions?

>mutt vessel
>fatally overweight
pottery

>>63821202
Stuffing less features into a ship means less crew. Less crew means less supplies needed. Less supplies/features/crew means small engine. Smaller engine means less fuel.

All of that means it can be much easier to add back on space/supplies just for the purpose of extending endurance. Of note, the LCS actually has one of the greatest endurances in the fleet...if you use module compartment for storage.

>>63825287

"Get to know me!"

>>63824980

> The Navy is doing just FINE! It just is OKAY!

>>63822858

> A Frigate weighing as much as a Cruiser is just great!

>>63821853
What is so fucking wrong with FREMM? Besides not being domestic.

>>63826829
Nothing, on a fundamental level, if you're comparing it with other contemporary designs.

Problem is, the mindwormed USN admirals have all sorts of violently retarded ideas.
Worst of which is "IT ABSOLUTELY MUST STAND IN A LINE OF BATTLE AND FACETANK TWO EXOCETS."
Which doesn't sound *massively excessive*, until you realize that literally *no* current-day design was created to do that. And literally *no* current design, regardless of bureau, has the free upgrade displacement and layout to do that. So you have to redesign it from absolute zero, and hope whatever the fuck you end up with is still usable.

>>63824472
to be fair usa doesnt even have the capacity to build them anywas

>>63825348
https://www.navy.mil/Leadership/Flag-Officer-Biographies/Search/Article/3462418/rear-admiral-kevin-r-smith/

>Smith served as the DDG 1000 program baseline director and ship integration and design manager in Program Executive Office (PEO), Ships, then returned to SUPSHIP Bath, as the DDG 1000 program manager representative, overseeing lead ship construction of the Zumwalt class.
>Rear Adm. Smith served as PEO Integrated Warfare Systems liaison officer in Adelaide, South Australia, leading integration efforts for the Aegis Combat Suite aboard the Hobart-class air warfare destroyer.

wow this guy is a bad luck charm

>>63822937
What drills prepare you for your fellow seaman suddenly becoming an enemy?

>>63824021
And thus smart men are indistinguishable from magicians in the eyes of stupid men.

>>63826916
That’s not what he said. Be reasonable

>>63826881
The Zumwalt felt like a good approach to the problem of needed to hit stuff with dumb artillery without being lit up like a Christmas tree in the retaliation. Maybe instead of railguns, they should work on making the 16 inchers a more efficient caliber?

>>63826909
>Systems liaison officer in Adelaide, South Australia, leading integration efforts for the Aegis Combat Suite aboard the Hobart-class air warfare destroyer.
HOLY SHIT LMAO HES AN ACTUAL FUCKING CURSE

>>63824941
Pre-replaced by AI, pls understand.

>>63826944
It's reasonable that you'd put out a box fire. It's less good when some nigger drags the box fire to someplace very not fireproof as well.

>>63822686
>didn't sink
>wasn't in slipway
>wasn't "just sitting there"
>fire was arson and not spontaneous
>figured out exactly how it happened and why it got so bad
>could have fixed it, chose not to because selling it for scrap and building a whole new one would be cheaper

I don't think I've ever seen post something where their own post refutes every single thing they said.

>>63822812
>The Navy helps them out by reducing capabilities where it’s too difficult for the contractor and accepts the contractor’s changes.

Anon that's the exact opposite of what's going on here, the issue is two many new capabilities were added on to the project after the basic requirements were set.

>>63823069
>active military personnel is lower while not at war compared to the last time the US was officially at war

Woah anon, that's crazy

Anons, the North Korean frigate is real and was completed in 400 days. The Constellation was started in 2017 and the USA is hoping it will stop being a CGI image by 2027. Given that it took 8 years for it to get to 10% completion and will take three more years before the most optimistic projection has it completed i wouldn't be bragging if i were you.

The DPRKs frigate is demonstrably real, the one the US claims it is is building is make believe.

>2025: To compete with a real North Korean ship Americans are bragging about a vaporware project that doesn't exist and is easily proven to be nothing more than a CGI fantasy

Sorry kids but this is a board where we talk about weapons in the real world, not make believe fantasy propaganda projects that are easily proven to not actually exist. It's less real than the T-14, that at least exists in prototype form unlike the fake US ship.

If you honestly believe that a 1990's tier computer generated image is a real ship you need to go outside and touch grass.

Any time you see a helo-deck on a ship you know that it's a disaster of too many requirements

>>63821064 (OP)
It's going to grow until it's an Arleigh Burke lmfao

>>63827718

> 2027

"The first example is currently slated to be delivered in 2029." And that's slipping. Unit 01 is only 10% "finished" of an unfinished design.

>>63828245
At current comparative build rates that means that by the time the USA completes a single Constellation the DPRK will have built 22 Choe Hyon Class destroyers.

>>63824941
They pay like shit and then there's retarded management decisions ruining any potential good engineering one could do there.

>>63824039
Fund it

>>63821064 (OP)
why

>>63821064 (OP)
Because they are fat.

The Navy needs to unironically start a whole other division or something within their structure, give it control of everything smaller than an arleigh burke, and have the command staff take a tour of NATO to talk to all the little shits about how they make useful small ships. The current institutional momentum is actively detrimental towards screen vessels. It has been literally a half centurey since they last produced a frigate. The last corvette the USN operated was from fucking WW2 and they didn't even design or build that one. American military excels in a great many areas, but this is not and never has been one. They need to step back and recognize this will require a new approach. And before anyone comes in wailing about "muh range," the Flowers had less than the LCS (3.5k miles or 2 weeks of food/water) and did just fine fighting a world war.

>>63836489

> The Navy needs to unironically start a whole other division or something within their structure, give it control of everything smaller than an arleigh burke,

Already exists and they're the ones screwing up for the last half century.

>>63836565
I like how you cut off the part that directly addresses your concern. Its almost like you have nothing to add but still feel the need to make yourself the center of attention.

shouldnt we just be dumping money into building more virginia SSNs? plus maybe a few of the missile truck variants of the columbia SSBNs they were showing last year?

>>63836653

"Why didn't you quote and address every single word if my deathless prose!"

Oh, made you sad. Ever so sorry.

>>63836752
The holdup for virginia's isn't lack of money to build them, it's lack of actual shipbuilding capacity and a trained workforce.
t.Aussie who sent you guys 500 mil and don't expect to have anything to show for it.

>>63836811
Now that's a quality shitpost. Rare. Don't see many like it these days.

>>63836752

Among other reasons, sub building has already maxed out yard capacity. All these new Navy sub orders are doing is building up a bigger backlog.

NB4 That Navy infrastructure spending that's all going to be spent on retired Admiral salaries and campaign donations.