Thread 63831624

The US is trying to woo Japan to leave GCAP and buy F-47s, due to the likelihood of GCAP delays.
FCAS is full of constant infighting.

Will both projects die?

>>63831624 (OP)
They will fail because they don't have 1 trillion dollars like the US did for the F-35.

>>63831624 (OP)
Dunno, but Germany should build a sixth gen themselves.

>>63831624 (OP)
france being a bunch of arrogant faggots despite their much vaunted SPECTRA just fucking shat the bed against chinkshits.

As if their accomplishment in building the Rafale on their own, an 80s design somehow totally invalidate German side experiences in developing advanced flight control system for the X-31 program and shits like TVC.
And ofc, there was the mbb lampyridae and dasa tdefs, ofc a rather humble effort compare to the us, but what did dassault ever do in stealth development to warrant their arrogance ?
Also, there's a good chance the variable cycle stuff will be MTU work, not even Safran
> VCE technology could be a viable option for the New Generation Fighter Engine (NGFE). MTU is researching the concept.
> VCE technology could be a viable option for the New Generation Fighter Engine (NGFE). MTU is researching the concept.
The shitshow with jeets, even if they are retarded, somehow wasn't enough to humbled Trappier at all.
He can enter a partnership with LM or NG and that faggot would keep bragging about how Rafale with some tinkers can totally best the F-22

>>63831732
i'm not even making shit up at all
> But if you want a single aircraft capable of doing air-to-air missions, reconnaissance, air-to-ground strikes, nuclear missions and embarkation on an aircraft carrier, I think that the Rafale is indeed the best aircraft in the world, better than the F-35 and far better than any Chinese aircraft on the market. It perfectly meets the needs of the French armed forces and the countries that have bought it.

https://www.challenges.fr/entreprise/defense/le-rafale-est-meilleur-que-le-f-35-et-que-tous-les-avions-chinois-les-verites-du-patron-de-dassault_605879

>>63831624 (OP)
Multinational projects and all the involved parties are notorious for one trait or other that makes them a pain in the ass to work with, on top of the general European inability to agree on shit. France's got an ego and always seem like they try to overreach in how the project benefits them, Germany's bureaucracy means any project can be randomly put on hold for decades because some other bidder or fag in middle management got butthurt and threw a paperwork wrench into the gears, Italy is fucking Italy and everything they do and touch is a clusterfuck, Bongs get their island complex going and hate committing to anything and always prefer being apart from shit like they're fucking special.

>>63831732
Typical european defence procurment / development.
>we want thing
>germany, uk, italy and sweden starts developing thing
>it goes good
>france now also wants thing since it goes good
>france is allowed to join because muh european unity
>france starts making demands to how thing should be changed to better suit frances needs
>these changes always come with some drawbacks to things overall design
>the parts that made thing good start fading because of it
>other europeans pull out because thing isnt going good now and they never had any need for the stuff france demandes which worsened thing
>germant still sticks with it because of sunk cost fallacy
>france sees its now shit and abandons it
>germany is left holding the bag and eventually decides to either domestically redesign it to how it was before france ruines it or can it outright
T. Euro

>>63831624 (OP)
The betting sites should take bets for the F-47 having 1, 2 or 3 engines.

>>63831624 (OP)
Typical european defence procurment / development.
>we want thing
>germany, uk, italy and sweden starts developing thing
>it goes good
>france now also wants thing since it goes good
>france is allowed to join because muh european unity
>france starts making demands to how thing should be changed to better suit frances needs
>these changes always come with some drawbacks to things overall design
>the parts that made thing good start fading because of it
>other europeans pull out because thing isnt going good now and they never had any need for the stuff france demanded which worsened thing
>germany still sticks with it because of sunk cost fallacy and hopes of saving thing
>france sees its now shit and abandons it
>germany is left holding the bag and eventually decides to either domestically redesign it to how it was before france ruined thing without international input or can it outright
T. Euro

>>63832019
That's BS.
The only thing frogs demand, is that the airplane be carrier-capable. It doesn't cause any impact on performance, it just makes it ~12(+/-)% more expensive (due to specific mods).
However, yuropeon governments are notoriously penny-pinching, so this increase in cost would be seen as completely unacceptable, especially given that nobody apart from the frogs operates CATOBAR carriers.

>>63831624 (OP)
>The US is trying to woo Japan to leave GCAP and buy F-47s
Yeah I don't see that working out. Any deal with the current administration is tentative at best, not to mention Trump openly stated they'd only sell downgraded monkey models to allies.

>>63831766
>rafale is best aircraft for everything
>.fr
ah yes definitely not a biased source very good anon

>The US is trying to woo Japan to leave GCAP and buy F-47s
They should just sell the YF-23 already, stop edging them

>>63832112
Think that anon likely just mocking frogs for their retardation

>>63832042
France is the geopolitical version of a girl who pushes her way into a ttrpg game only to immediately demand the game be reworked to cater to her own tastes. If I'm committing money to a program whose cost breakdowns and specifications have already been determined, I'm not paying an extra 12 cents on the dollar because a Johnny Come-Lately demands we add new specifications that no one else needs. If France wants the rest of Europe to subsidize its aircraft development it can pursue a F-35A/F-35C situation and pay for the French-specific design changes itself.

>>63832019
>>63832042
No nonononono.
The real issue is that france always wants project leadership and majority workshare for every single project they "cooperate" in.
They only want other countries to foot the bill and buy the end product, not actually get any workshare or any say in the project.
Ask a random frenchman about Airbus, Ariane, etc and they'll tell you that these are 100% french companies.
It's just typical french arrogance.
Any cooperating with france is totally doomed due to that.
Also every single fucking carrier plane has strengthened landing gear, a tail hook, and bigger flaps or other low-speed lift aids for carrier landings, which significantly degrade performance.
Oh also french carriers are tiny, which limits maximum take off weight to like 25 tons, which is way too little for modern air-to-air.

>>63832194
I know a guy who learned french at a german defense contractor, and worked on french/german cooperation programs.
Project went nowhere for 8 years, the guy nearly killed himself.

>>63832183
Except, germs and spaniards wants nothing to do with a catobar-capable for pierre colonial wet dreams in exchange for pure a2a performance.
Rafale should be more than good enough even in 2050 if all you wanna do is to bomb sub suharan africans for not paying the bills

>>63832200
That's why you don't attach your ego to a job. He made work for 8 years and got paid. Why give a shit if the company didn't make a billion dollars on your sweat? He won. I thought euroids were woke on thr while work thing anyway?

>>63831645
reminder that F-35 is 3 planes under 1 name

>>63832361
4*

>>63831645
>joint strike fighter

>>63832390
Just an F-35A with plugs for Israeli EW equipment.

ITT : americans discover once again that europe is not a country and each countries in it have their own industrial corps and army doctrines making it impossible for them to cooperate together to make something

>>63832361
i still dont understand this shit
why bother putting 3 planes with <30% commonality between them under the same name
just because they have similar silhouettes?

>>63832471
This entire thread is talking about how Euro projects are constantly hamstrung by differing needs, policies, and strategies of project members and that French involvement is basically a death sentence.

>>63831766
MULTIrole : can fulfill several different tasks with only temporary field-level modifications

OMNIrole : can fulfill several different tasks at once without modifications

He is right. The Rafale is indeed the best omnirole fighter available, but that's because it's pretty much the only one. No one other than the French actually has a use for that capability doctrinally speaking, because it's something only a country with lots of funds but limited production capability like France could come up with.

The omnirole capability did actually get some use in Lybia btw, Rafales would sometimes bomb targets while coming back from a fire mission.

>>63832523
French involvement is what's keeping the Tiger alive. German involvement is what's killing it, thank god they got out.

>france requires new fighters to work on their shit carriers and want to build everything
>italy wants fighters to work on their even worse carriers
>uk wants new fighters to work on their slightly less shit carriers
>france and italy cooperating until italy gets annoyed and switches to uk program
carrier capability is gonna doom them both
but if i had to bet on one working out it'd be uk and japan

>>63832183
>>63832211
>join the 6th gen program with the partner that explicitly wants the jet to be carrier capable instead of the one that is purely dedicated to A2A
>become upset when they demand the aircraft to be carrier capable
Yeah I don't think you guys thought that one through

>>63832537
>uk wants new fighters to work on their slightly less shit carriers
>italy wants fighters to work on their even worse carriers
No they don't. GCAP is explicitly NOT a navalised fighter. Every participant country in GCAP already operates F-35s as their naval fighter.
>france and italy cooperating until italy gets annoyed and switches to uk program
Italy is already a part of the UK program you fucking retard.

>>63832555
>Italy is already a part of the UK program you fucking retard.
they were supposed to work with france first

>>63832566
Yeah 2 decades ago when there was a single FCAS program

>>63832524

> rafale
> the only operational omnirole
Stop getting ahead of urself again, Pierre
35a can carries out all of that, all while not getting clapped because the oh-so-marvelous SPECTRA got dunked on by chinkshits
And that’s not even what Trappier said, he unironically claimed with a straight face that the French typhoon knock-off is superior to most well-rounded VLO atm

>>63832390
What's different about the I variant?

>>63832523
>strategies of project members and that French involvement is basically a death sentence.
and yet there's dozens of projects proving you wrong, curious!

>>63832577
Way to miss the point of post you're responding to.

>>63831732
> lampyridae
PURE SEXO GERMAN DIAMOND

As always, you're calling the French arrogant and incompetent. But please enlighten me: When was the last time Germany or the UK designed and produced a jet fighter 100% domestically?

>>63832639
Implessive, Monsieur
HOWEVER :^)

>>63831624 (OP)
>the US is trying to convince countries they should abandon their programs and buy US products instead because they're a reliable ally
maybe not the time for that

>>63832692
How fucking retarded do you have to be not to see how dire the euro situation is.
The US is the only reason that the EU even exists. Have you dumbfucks actually seen the EU military assets if the US completely pulls out?
Fucking ingrates always screaming anti-American horseshit and always shoving russian and chinese propaganda down their fucking throats.
Watch as literally none of the non-US 6th gen ever get off the ground.

>>63832676
>Almost 200 Indian planes are in the sky.
>On a non-surprise attack against a similarly strong country.
>Only three to five were shot down, depending on the source, mostly due to mission plannification failure.
>Enemy targets were destroyed.
Impressive indeed.

>>63832722
lol
lmao

>>63831708
germany have not built a combat jet themselfes since ww2. Only france, sweden, us, china, russia can design and build a plane from the ground up by themselfes. there is also turkey, india and south korea but their industries are reliant on foreign help so far

>>63832750
>there is also turkey, india and south korea but their industries are reliant on foreign help so far
Of course. Unlike the based Swedes you mention and their based Gripen which is built of based Swedish components.

6th gen will not appear, the world will collapse into lower civilization before that happens. It’s unlikely there will even be a 5th gen outside of the U.S, 6th gen is a pipedream.

>>63832042
12% is a lot more than you seem to think when you are talking about a multi-trillion dollar project whose aircraft will easily be over 100 million each and cost a fuckton more in maintanance.

>>63832776
as in they had foreign companies come in and design their planes for them. gripen is more so a case of using existing components on the market to keep costs down, its not really comparable to the indian tejas for example where dassault had to come in to fix the design

if you want to limit the list to only using subcomponents made in the country then you are down to russia us and maybe france

>>63832776
>twice as many american components as swedish
>even the bongs produce more components than the swedes do
>doesn't even use a domestic engine design
Grim.
>>63832823
It doesn't even fly using a Swedish engine for fuck sake. Stop coping.

>>63832827
>doesn't even use a domestic engine design
i mean neither does china, and thats the most powerful country on earth

>>63832835
Their newest jets do though

>>63832750
Bro, sorry to break it to you but Germany has the know-how and technology to build their own planes.

>>63832912
Lmao. Every nation with an internet access and a citizen who can read has the know-how.
In terms of technology, Germany is lacking in several key areas, particularly jet engine technology.

>>63833079
>particularly jet engine technology
does it matter when they're right next to two very friendly countries with the worlds #1 and #3 jet engine manufacturers

>>63833128
So Germany should stfu and let the country who actually has all the technology, industrial network and experience in designing and building jet fighters, aka France, leads the SCAF instead of bitching to impose their incompetent companies and irrelevant views on this topic.

>>63833180
ok but its a reply to >>63831708 you moron

>>63832835
>i mean neither does china, and thats the most powerful country on earth
kek

>>63832576
larger nose cone

>>63832425
and by joint they meant the drugs that the management took when planning the project

>>63833079
So what did France, particularly dassault and safran has that’s noteworthy in thrust vector control, stealth, not to mention data link ?
Those are the relevant topics within 6th gen.
Even the so called engineers that was responsible for Rafale development would likely be in their 70s or even 80s, hardly relevant for a 6th gen stealth fighter with way more requirements by 2045
Otherwise, they can shut up about their superiority, especially when Rafale got raped by inbred poos flying chinkshits

>>63832729
> Enemy targets were destroyed
Pic ? Proof ? And no, not jeet poo-foamed stinky hole

>>63831708
Why would an ucav have a cockpit ?

>>63832533
Good. The tiger is mediocre to begin with

>>63832200
He got underpaid ?

>>63832361
>>63832390
*5

>Mitsubishi kills itself in cars
>now it kills itself in planes

Sad to see

>>63838989
>now it kills itself in planes
Sounds familiar for Mitsubishi

>>63832524
what a stupid marketing term. f-18 did the same in 1991. they took off to bomb something, saw a mig on their way and shot it down. it was a single button press to switch to air to air mode. no "temporary field-level modifications" needed.

>>63832567
> 2 decades
No such thing during the 2000s

>>63831624 (OP)
I don't see FCAS dying since design wise it seems to be relatively settled, it's stalled because of scope creep and funding issues. Even if germany and spain leave midway, they'll probably try to hurry it along with european funds since france has no more money in it's own budget.

>>63831624 (OP)
the development parties will fail half way through for both projects around 2030s, and they will buy f-47 monkey model instead.
Screencap this

>>63832042
>The only thing frogs demand, is that the airplane be carrier-capable. It doesn't cause any impact on performance
Roflmao.
No.
Carrier based literally funnels you into limited inferior design choices.
Like see ICE study
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/fate-and-ice-studies.3547/
Conventional aircraft they were able to make very stealthy triangle, but carrier based required canards and with all that weird angles on leading edges that are terrible for stealth.
Imagine what UFO could USAF had , instead they got pregnant F-35A.

>>63832019
That France is difficult to deal with in cooperation is a debate I will not enter in but saying that France join the programs AFTER its launch just to shit up thing is unhinged mythomania when its one of the driving force in the EU for the launch of joint programs.

>>63831732
>building the Rafale on their own
More like modifying an eurofighter after leaving the program

>>63831624 (OP)
>The US is trying to woo Japan to leave GCAP and buy F-47s
The US also tried to get Italy to join the f47 program, they're just trying to seed discord and undermine their allies like they always do

>>63844514
The idea that people will jump on the F-47 when the US has been acting like a massive retard recently is very doubtful. I think they'll just eat the GCAP delay and finish it when it's finished. The boon from having the capability to make one is too good to pass up anyway.

>>63831779
>Italy is fucking Italy and everything they do and touch is a clusterfuck
You couldn't be more wrong. We just lack funding. MB-326, SF260, G222, C27j, MB339, M346, Trieste, Cavour, C202, AMX, ATR72, A129, OTO melara stuff, etc.

>>63832566
No, we were only overseeing the ETAP. By the time FCAS was a real project we were already in official talks with the UK

>>63831624 (OP)
Trump already said allies will get a Monkey model

>>63845322
This, retards keep saying that the GCAP will not be as good as the F47, nut it literally doesn't matter. Developing your own plane and nurturing yoir industry expertise is more important than being a customer.
And anyway, it's made by boeing so I highly doubt it will ever fly

>>63831708
they should, the barrier to entry is hilariously low, just one or two capable graphic designers

>>63831779
Nigga we make the best helicopters in the world.

>>63831779
>Italy is fucking Italy and everything they do and touch is a clusterfuck
just don't buy our ships then

>>63831624 (OP)
EU cant even make a fifth gen, 6th gen is just a dream.
Its going to be less stealthy than the americans and chinese and the only thing they'll parrot as sixth gen is its support for drones.

>>63845301
The rafale design was ready before they left the program, it's why they were so confident in leaving in the first place. Visually it's also clearly derivative of the mirage 4000, while the eurofighter was based on the mbb design built as the BAe EAP.

>>63832328
>I thought euroids were woke on thr while work thing anyway?
The fuck is that supposed to mean?
People try to take pride in their work, and just halfassing shit enough to not get fired is the american way facilitated by american management practices.

t. working for a now american-run company and halfassing shit enough to not get fired while not taking pride in my job anymore because their management practices made our product and everything associated with it worse

>>63845791
And it's still better than buying an american jet

>>63845883
>The rafale design was ready before they left the program, it's why they were so confident in leaving in the first place
That doesn't disprove what I said

Mr Trappier, any comments now that the Paris Air Show is open?

>>63846278
kek his delusion will force germs and spaniards to leave the program and french will cope how the Rafale F5 will be competitive against the likes of F-47 and whatever 6th gen chinesium in 2050.
I actually feel sorry for germs now

>>63833079
There is this little indie plane developer company in germany called airbus.

>>63846401
Who, pray tell, makes the jet engines for airbus planes?

>>63831624 (OP)
>european 6th gen
>posts american flag
Why is 4chan sos tupid?

>>63846229
Maybe a picture will help? They certainly weren't modifing the design that would result in the EAP.

>>63832624
>vertical tail on stealth
WTF are you doing?

>>63845641
No one need your crappily designed hull anyway, pastanigger

Also, Rome is full of gypsies and Italian cuisine is overrated af

>>63845576
Who tf are you in this “we” ?

The GCAS would have Italian leather seat and interior, British rolls Royce engines and hot female British voice inputs like
>terrain, terrain, pull up
And it would have Japanese Sony & Nintendo electronics.

The US know they wouldn’t be able to compete so they’re splitting at apart

>>63847887
Success always breeds jealously.

>>63846401
Yes, Airbus. Its headquarter is in France, as are most of its assembly lines and R&D sites. Airbus commercial planes are mostly equipped with CFM engines, a joint venture between Safran (France) and GE (USA).
It's truly a marvelous example of German aeronautical capabilities.

>>63846854
>>63846873
hey frog, is there any news if you're planning on building a new jet trainer once the alpha jets is kaput even for the PAF or will you really just continue with the PC-21 even for LIFT? A guy I know who did its RAMI at Avord said even french pilots weren't that thrilled with the PC-21.

>>63832194
>Ask a random frenchman about Airbus, Ariane, etc and they'll tell you that these are 100% french companies.
lmao >>63850860
case in point.

>>63851012
I never said it was 100% French. It's obviously not.
However feel free to correct the points of my previous post if they're wrong.

>>63832390
*lick lick lick*

>>63832194
>The real issue is that france always wants project leadership and majority workshare for every single project they "cooperate" in.
>They only want other countries to foot the bill and buy the end product, not actually get any workshare or any say in the project.
Perfectly summed up.
t- had to work with a french company for a valve

>make germoids and britoids seethe by merely existing
how do we do it french bros

>>63850993
They haven't made any decision because they either want a french jet derived from the FCAS program or substantial benefits from using a jet from another country. In theory the best urgent solution would be the M-346, but the french leadership doesn't really care, or has anything planned before 2030.

>>63851136
>In theory the best urgent solution would be the M-346
I would love that since I'm obsessed with it but there would be too many issues for France.
>non french plane to represent France abroad
>if bought only for the PAF then the cost/unit will be raised and can't be spread out for LIFT training
>France would just be a consumer as the project is already mature and building a production line in france wouldn't make any sense for the airframes they need (unless they plan to field a lot of FA variants)
>american engine
>Italy not part of FCAS

Pros would be that french pilots are already used to the M-346 from their representation at the IFTS, the mechanics from the Singapoereans M-346s that are stationed at Cazaux Air Base and it's "ready" for delivery (altough Leonardo has orders till at least 2032)

>https://www.lefigaro.fr/conjoncture/quel-avion-pour-succeder-aux-alphajet-de-la-patrouille-de-france-20250213
This french article says the British Aeralis (picrel; uk startup tasked to replace the Hawk) has proposed the french aviospace industry to jointly develop the program. This would resolve various issues faced by the UK and let France say their next jet is at least partially french.
To me it seems like unless france does something 100% by itself there will be always compromises on the political aspects, but developing a trainer from the ground up now would take at the very least till 2035 to have a prototype if they go lightspeed with zero issues on the development. Potential customers if it's made ITAR free would be previous french customers, but most of them either aren't looking for trainers now or have bought the russian or chinese version of the 346.

>>63851201
>I would love that since I'm obsessed with it
I'll never understand how people can like trainers. They are small, underpowered, no armaments

>>63851201
Yeah, but the aeralis proposal only exists on paper, and it will take years to bring it into reality. Years that dassault can use to make their counter proposal to screw over the deal if they feel like it, as they have done before.
Ironically, the best hope for the aeralis proposal is that dassault gets so busy with FCAS that they can't spare the effort to do a light trainer.

>>63850993
>>63851136
About PAF, they will probably use Rafales but in a cheaper version : unarmed and without electronics related to EW/mission planification/armament

>>63851248
>They are small, underpowered,
they're trainers
>no armaments
almost all trainers have an armed variant.
>>63851268
I hope not, big fighters usually end up having boring performances from an aerobatic perspective.
>>63851267
>Years that dassault can use to make their counter proposal to screw over the deal if they feel like it
what would they gain?

>France, Germany, The UK, Sweden
Are all 40%,20%,26%,30% Arab, Mena, Nafri muslims
>these subhumans will be majority in 15-20 years which will either lead to civil wars or a collapse in living standards and wealth in said countries
>MIC retards argue about a 6th gen multuidecade expensive plane project that doesn't even have a cg rendering and all Euro countries beside the French and swedes can't produce 1(one)4th gen airframe per year much less 5th or 6th gen

Legitimate question, are all western Euro MIC retards wealthy dudes that live in gated communities? Do these guys have zero awareness of the social, economic and demographic realities of their nations?

Niger who gives a fuck about muh frog eating French or arrogant Brits and autistic Germans, soon most of them will be some asoretment of brown that speak Arabic.You won't have working roads and clean water infrastructure and you are raping on about Sci fi shit...
Wake the fuck up.

>>63851471
Leaving aside your made up statistics, I doubt a mutt from the US where whiters are already under 43% can open his mouth.

>>63847887
>https://www.twz.com/sea/troubled-constellation-frigate-is-now-at-least-759-metric-tons-overweight
Yeah... looks like you can't even adapt a proven design like the FREMM.

>>63844567
>Hon hon hon intensifies.jpg

>its one of the driving force in the EU for the launch of joint programs.
There are two types of defense programs in Europe.
>Britain, Germany, Italy, Spain, Sweden all working well until France fucks things up through unparalleled egotism and solipsism in Paris
>France demands that Britain, Germany, Italy, Spain, and Sweden all foot the bill for France's latest boondoggle/industrial welfare project.

>>63851115
No, we're seething because you can't act civilized. Learn to work with other or stop wondering when all your joint projects end up in failure.

>>63832639
>When was the last time Germany or the UK designed and produced a jet fighter 100% domestically?
It's not necessary when you know how to work with other people.

>>63851471
>source
>his ass
you'll be speaking chechen before any of us start speaking arab

>>63852493
>Learn to work with other
still pissed that you didn't get that landing ship Ivan

>>63852538
What? You frogs failed to work even with the vatniks? Lmaooo

>>63851136
>In theory the best urgent solution would be the M-346
you can't have 2 acrobatic teams fly the same jets

>>63832361
F-35F: French Delusions edition

>>63853669
>performance ends
>wop jet flies back with the frog team by mistake
>same happens with a frog jet
>they only notice the exchange when the italian asks why there are no bidets and the frog complains about the girls not stinking enough

>>63853735
I would say there are at least 2 planes under the same name, considering the f-35c has less than 30% part commonality with the other 2 types, to the point it has different wings and version specific gunpods.

https://raafdocumentary.com/comparing-the-variants-of-the-lockheed-martin-f-35-lightning-ii/

I'm willing to bet the airforce and navy version of the F-4 had a lot more in common. By comparison, the rafale m has about 95% parts commonality with the C version, but to be fair it's a lot easier to adapt a carrier based plane to land than the other way around.

>>63851348
Orders for their own offerings? The most blatant example was the BAC/Dassault AFVG project, which was started in 1964 but was torpedoed by mirage III G prototype that was designed, built and flown by dassault between 1965 and 1967 while the AFVG project was still finalising design details (it later on became the basis for the panavia tornado). Dassault makes great combat planes, but it's business practises are no less lethal.

>>63833875
JUDEN!

>>63838397
Is this Naval Aviation fuckery?

>>63845934
We probably think you're of limited capability and optimized expectations.

>>63854314
I actually mean the French should get a program share with the F-35 and basically we play tech support for their designer's version and they build it an all the frog horseshit stays in frogland.

>>63854729
That worked brilliantly for building jet engines (CFM international). They were not just kept in france though...

>>63831645
The F-35's development cost like 60B. 1T$ is the procurement cost for the 3000+ jets

>>63854555
Sandboxx playing with AI for the twin engine F-35 concept.

>>63854314
whats with the italian roundels and flag? Were they trying to sell them to the wops?

>>63832018
Its 2 engines, 1 engine sucks.

>>63856899
agreed

Dassault's CEO is no doubt completely correct in his criticisms of the FCAS and other european military procurement programs, but I have a feeling he is also the cause of many problems...

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2025/04/11/dassault-ceo-strikes-dark-tone-on-europes-sixth-gen-fighter-progress/

>Trappier said the fragmented work methodology of FCAS is a cause of delays, as “each time we reopen pointless, endless discussions” with a push for more co-development and cooperation. Trappier said he disagrees with that model, and focus should be on prioritizing the best skills.

>Trappier mentioned the French-led nEUROn drone project as an example of what cooperation should look like, with six countries successfully developing an “ultra stealthy” combat drone on a tight budget. The CEO said Dassault as manager of the program didn’t compromise on the product for the sake of “geo return,” the practice of guaranteeing nations a work share proportional to their investment, which Trappier called “absolutely deadly for setting up a European cooperation.”

>Meanwhile, when Dassault Aviation wants to work with German partners, certain technology derived from the Eurofighter is off-limits unless something “high-level” is provided in return, according to Trappier. “Well, that doesn’t work. So we’re constantly bumping into these difficulties of work share,” he told lawmakers.

>Trappier was asked whether Dassault could go it alone should the FCAS program fail, and be able to provide France with a stealth-capable aircraft within a reasonable time frame. “I don’t want to sound arrogant at all, but whose capabilities do I need other than my own to make a combat aircraft?” Trappier said. “So I’m willing to cooperate and share. I’m not against it, but I’m the one with the skills.”

https://www.defenseone.com/business/2025/06/spat-over-europes-next-gen-fighter-program-spills-over-paris-air-show/406133/

>>63852522
>>63851477
>hurr durr Russia and the US are also becoming minority white brown shitholes so it's alright for Europe to also become like them
Absolutely retarded take, you don't fix your shit by pointing out your adversaries flaws then learn nothing and procedding to fuck up in the same exact way.

>>63857060
>claim europe is 50% brown
>statistics show on average all EU countries are 95%+ white with France being the exception (UK is not in the EU)
>gets mad when anons point out that US statistics show them being 40% white (and US stats put arabs and latinos with whites)
Yeah yeah stop crying. You literally came into a thread for the discussion about 6th gen fighters and complained about muh whiteness just to gett butthurt when people responded in kind.
And what fucking retarded mental gymnastic is it to say "you can't develop fighters when X issue already exist"
You can easily have a nation tackle multiple problems, crying that you shouldn't tackle X problem because Y problem exists is literally demoralization propaganda.
I wonder, are you an american butthurt that your 6th gen CGI render isn't even fully rendered or a russian mad that their stealth aircrafts are less stealthy that western jets from the 70s?

>>63857044
>the program didn’t compromise on the product for the sake of “geo return,” the practice of guaranteeing nations a work share proportional to their investment, which Trappier called “absolutely deadly for setting up a European cooperation.”
Or in other words; As long as every other country foots the bill and we get the benefits of producing and hogging the workshare we won't sabotage the program.

>>63857561
To add on Dassault's hypocrisy, there as never been in the history of manking a joint project with France where they accepted the reversal of the medal, of fundin a project and not getting their "geo return"

>>63857044
>Dassault's CEO is no doubt completely correct in his criticisms of the FCAS and other european military procurement programs,
Is he? To me it's just the usual french arrogance. You can't enter a joint development program and then expect others to simply stay out of it and just be paypigs. That's not what a joint program is. That's just asking for investors. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years and Germany will leave the FCAS and join the GCAP

>>63832493
the parts commonality was higher, but reduced due to catobar requirements

>>63857574
>You can't enter a joint development program and then expect others to simply stay out of it and just be paypigs
The UK is doing the same

I thought I made this thread like a week ago

>>63857574
I would say he is because a lot of time is wasted deciding who makes what, it would be preferable if there was some sort of mechanism that balances out the contributions of each countries AFTER there's a plane in the air instead of having to wait for every decision. Essentially trappier wants to treat european partners as subcontractors instead of partners, and honestly that's probably the only expedient way this can be done because developing parts of the plane separately will cause a lot of problems when they have to be made to work together.

I do wonder if it would have been easier to partner up to make 2 planes that share parts instead of 1, a smaller single engined plane made by dassault that's carrier compatible and exportable, and a bigger 2 engined fighter bomber designed by germans for german needs, at least there would be less whining about who leads what.

>>63832493
>>63857581
I.E. US navy bitched to no end about having to use the same plane as the airforce, even though the airforce has repeatedly accepted to use planes designed for the us navy.

>>63857770
>that's probably the only expedient way this can be done because developing parts of the plane separately will cause a lot of problems when they have to be made to work together.
Yet others never had such issues, look at the tornado or the EF. It's only with the french that they expect everyone else to come to terms while they don't give an inch.

>>63857770
>AFTER there's a plane in the air
At that point any technological merit to being a partner is lost as the developmental phase is already mostly over so you'd be a subcontractor.

>>63857563
I guess the closest thing would be the vought v-507 mock up that was based on the mirage g8 and competed with grummans 303 (future f-14).

>>63831624 (OP)
>The US is trying to woo Japan to leave GCAP and buy F-47s
Really hard pitch to make when the F-47 offer is for nothing but the plane while GCAP gives them workshare and substantial technology sharing.

>>63857845
You underestimate just how subservient Japan is to the US

>>63857822
You could say the tornado went reasonably well in terms of development (1969 - 1979 from deal to production) but eurofighter took way too long (1982 - 1998). The rafale is not exactly comparable because it started at the same time and was ready for production in 1992, but was then put on ice for about 10 years and only started rolling out in 2002.

The brits will call the GCAP Tempest, the japs Reppu. What's the italian nickname?

>>63857954
>What's the italian nickname?
We don't usually give nicknames to our planes. it will be an alphanumerical code. Like PA-200, EF2000, T-346A etc

>>63833875
No, they trim the tip off it

>>63858104
they get a rabbi to vacuum it off when the F-35 is still fresh off the assembly line

>>63857835
Maybe in the 40's, but nowadays fighter jets are basically works in progress getting constant upgrades and redesigns, with rafale going from f1 to f4 standard (as soon gaining an f5), eurofighter going from tranche 1 to 4, J-10 A to J-10 C, F-35 block 1 to 4, etc.

>>63857845
> vertical stabs
Yeah it’s shit

>>63857866
It's beyond subservience. Japan has about as much autonomy as Puerto Rico.

>>63859638
Nope, the technological transfer and investment return from local manufacturing from developing a fighter and just upgrading it aren't even comparable (it's literally the primary reason France always acts so kikerish). Stop trying to lick Dassault arsehole clean, there is no excuse for their behaviour and the FCAS will never see the light of day as long as thee french will keep behaving like the french

>>63861534
Just as shit as the F-22 then? Lmao, You don't even have a degree, you're a mutt who made fun of canards for stealth, saw your partial CGI render have canards and now you've gotta go ham on the vstabs hoping the next iteration of the F47 render will not feature them (it doesn't matter, you'll mindlessly praise it without even understanding why)

>>63851471
>Legitimate question, are all western Euro MIC retards wealthy dudes that live in gated communities? Do these guys have zero awareness of the social, economic and demographic realities of their nations?

Yes and Yes because they have a very boomeristic mindset of "I got mine so I dont need to care".

>>63857552
>statistics show on average all EU countries are 95%+ white

Thats clearly bullshit. Furthermore, the younger you go, the greater the amount of immigrants and non euros.

>>63861855
>Thats clearly bullshit.
You're free to prove me wrong, but you can't. Every statisctics shows data that range from an AVERAGE of 90 to 96%.
>Furthermore, the younger you go, the greater the amount of immigrants and non euros.
no shit? You might be onto something sherlock.
Now, are you done with your offtopic /po/ tirades? This is /k/ you absolute noguns.

>>63838397
> ai slop
So tiresome…

>>63854729
F-35 is quite well tailored to their need, truly mind boggling that they are pissing the 6th gen project to maintain the capability to bomb sandniggers instead

>>63832328
Imagine what the interview for his next job looks like.
"So what did you last work on?"
"[cancelled project]"

>>63832523
>This entire thread is talking about how Euro projects are constantly hamstrung by differing needs, policies, and strategies of project members

There are also a lot of good european cooperations.
The brits and the germans get along surprisingly well.
And anything with the smaller partners like belgium, netherlands, denmark and germany for example usually goes quite smoothly.
Hell even the italians are relatively reasonable to work with.

Just the french ... might as well burn the money and shoot your engineers right away.

>>63864125
thoughts on Aster, FREMM, Concorde, LEAP and so many other joint projects involving France that you will never acknowledge because they don't let you get over your obsession

>>63864125
Nah, the brits told germany to stay out of gcap because the eurofighter went so "well". I do agree that a partnership between a big nation and a few smaller nations usually goes well, because there aren´t inflated national interests/egos getting in the way. But I suspect that cooperation between 2 or more neighbouring big nations will never go well unless there's some imminent danger that requires actual results.

>>63864125
the french and the belgians work together very well

>>63864125
the problem with the french is that they know exactly what they want and are hellbent on getting what they want.

>>63864125
>italians are relatively reasonable
When did we create issues in joint projects? Genuine question since we're Tier 2 partners in the F-35 and never caused problems, we even had no issues working with the frogs on the FREMM and other civilian projects.

>>63851115
>>63864182
well then frenchies can either fund their own carrier flying shitboxes or take the L and co developing an actual 6th gen to fight something other than mudhut africans ?
They are too broke to even fund the manned component at this point too, not to mention 6th would be about ucav swarms under manned fighter control.
And then there's other topics like thrust vector control, since 6th gen gotta be stealth maxxxed, so vertical tails could possibly be omitted, so TVC would likely a must have.

Do tell me what's the notable achievement that dassault ever did in this ? At least MBB(now airbus germany) colaborated with Rockwell on this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell-MBB_X-31
Them being insanly cocky even when they havent done shit since the fucking 80s is truly mind boggling.
But hey, i'll leave Trappier to do his thing, with the generous budget that they currently have, the best they can do - Rafafe F5 would totally be competitive in 2050, krautoids and angloid jealous cause they couldn't compete with the BFC, amirite ?

>>63865816
>thrust vector control
Literally useless as proven by the F22 where even the pilots said they didn't care for it. 6th gen planes will be missile boats.

>>63866482
> useless
> source: i pulled that out of my butt

Do quote the source that they say it then ?
Otherwise, the official remark is TVC is not super useful for like 90% of the time, since the modern A2A combats is mostly about BVR.
Even then, when fighting against near-peer foes, provided that they have a decent VLO platform, then TVC can still be useful in the odd situations when it turn to WVR combat, so you coping that TVC is useless is wrong, unless you can provide anything substantial to back that up.
That's why F-22 still remains the more dominant platform compare to F-35 despite being much older with equally old avionics.
Being more BVR-oriented doesn't exclude optimised for WVR, but since Frenchniggers loves to do business with subsaharan neger so much, catobar is a must for them

>>63866595
>Do quote the source that they say it then ?
>https://youtu.be/v9AKo2AO644?t=589
Here you go. This is one is public, but I also have spoken to a few Raptor pilots myself and they pretty much have said the same beside a G junky at RIAT

>>63866595
>That's why F-22 still remains the more dominant platform compare to F-35 despite being much older with equally old avionics.
Bullshit, various RED FLAG exercise always have F-35 pilots with way more kills than F22s sqds.

>>63831645
>They can't afford it
The United Kingdom is the sole "Level 1" partner, contributing US$2.5 billion, which was about 10% of the planned development costs under the 1995 Memorandum of Understanding that brought the UK into the project.

Level 2 partners are Italy, and the Netherlands, who are contributing US$1 billion and US$800 million each respectively, combinging to roughly 8%. Level 3 partners are Turkey, US$195 million; Canada US$160 million; Australia, US$144 million; Norway, US$122 million and Denmark, US$110 million. Israel and Singapore have joined as so-called "security cooperative participants" (SCP).
They also bought the planes afterwards, to no small cost.

I think they can afford it.

>https://www.leonardo.com/it/press-release-detail/-/detail/20-06-2025-global-combat-air-programme-gcap-marks-major-milestone-industry-partners-launch-joint-venture-company-edgewing-to-deliver-next-generation-combat-aircraft?f=%2Fhome
The joint venture for the GCAP is alive from today. The name is Edgewing

>>63867899
TLDR?

Here's the ngad

>>63867090
> He literally reaffirmed at 11:35 that TVC can still come in handy
Nice selfown there, btw

>>63868225
how these things shoot behind themselves.

>>63868225
>>63868245
Ni hao, prease give de source
Asking for a fliend, btw

>>63868266
the craziest technology that's ever been conceived.

>>63868238
>F22 pilot reaffirms multiple times he'd rather have the extra gas and helmet over TVC
>"yeah but in some desperate situations it could be nice"
>guys guys stop noticing the fact that in 99.9999% of realistic scenarios TVC is a meme! This pilot said that in extreme fringe cases THAT HAVE NEVER HAPPENED IN THE HISTORY OF MILITARY AVIATION they could come in handy!
>this totally validates my point!
The only self own here is yours, you absolute buffoon.

>>63868201
They got the go ahead from the overseeing bodies that need to prevent anticompetitive partnerships etc to create the joint venture. Basically now the GCAP can go into full development and prototype production

>>63867899
>>63868365
Based.

>>63867899
Meanwhile the FCAS is dead in the water thanks to the french with the first flying prototype by 2050 as admitted by dassault CEO

>>63867144
>They also bought the planes afterwards, to no small cost
Israel got them for free considering the free ordinance we give them and aid. On top of having full access to the source code and having sold everything to china.

>>63864236
> belgium
> real country

>>63832161
raptor is better in most aspects though

>>63868345
> implying any of the above refute my post at all

>>63874171
They all do, you're just refusing to accept reality. Or you're a retarded ESL who can't read.

>>63874743
lmao, no.
rather they validate every single of my points.

>>63861904
What a bullshit article. Pilpul designed explicitly to deceive. We all know our countries have been flooded with thirdies who are given citizenship. Honestly: fuck you. Traitors before enemies

>>63876775
Feel free to explain how they validate them, oops. You can't.

>>63877170
>What a bullshit article
It's using literal Eurostat data. You're putting your feelings over cold hard data.

>>63877170
>who are given citizenship
except they are not? You're free to look at the official data but the percentage of new citizenships given to foreing born nationals is less than 12% (exluding the US). Most new citizenships are from other EU countries.

>>63877790
He knows it to be true, in his gut.

>>63831624 (OP)
Nothing. They just started later.

>>63877771
To sum it up what I said compare to that pilot opinion
> TVC is not super useful for like 90% of the time, since the modern A2A combats is mostly about BVR.
Checked
> Even then, when fighting against near-peer foes, provided that they have a decent VLO platform, then TVC can still be useful in the odd situations when it turn to WVR combat
Not fully aligned, but close enough, still a hard pass

>>63880902
>>63865816
>so TVC would likely a must have.
Funny how you went from "TVC is a must have" to my point of it being "kinda nice in extremely fringe scenarios that have never happened since the introdution of stealth"

>>63847887
TRVKE
>t. pastanigger

European third gen fighter

>>63881084
European fourth gen fighter

>>63881093
European 4.5 gen fighter

>>63881003
> never happened
Do tell me again, when did an actual encounter between 2 VLO platforms ever happen ?

>>63881099
European fifth gen fighter


...I think by now you can probably figure out why the Euros can't into sixth gen.

>>63881084
Rafale was made after the mirage 2000/4000 4th gen prototypes anon, it cannot be third gen.

But to fair i think this figther generation talk is complete nonsense since the start.

>>63881110
It turns out that a 6th gen fighter has to have more than new paint and a cool tint job.

>>63881107
Plenty of times during red flag excercises. And it never devolved into a gunfight unless it was to practice BFM

>>63881125
say that to the americans who only have a incomplete CGI render

>>63883985
Because: >>63881125

>>63877790
>15% for Sweden
Hi rabbi

>>63832018
i'm betting 2 because it's going to be a long range missile boat with drones spotting for it.

>>63883981
Uh unless you can actually provide the actual record for nearly every single one, and i highly doubt you can ever do so, since exercise can include multiple scenarios to merely sum it all up in one post on a mongolian basket weaving forum.

What were the rules of engagement? What were the circumstances for each scenario ?

>>63889204
>huh? SOURCE? SOURCE? SOURCE?
My source is that I heard it directly from a F-35 driver student.

>>63870298
as long as I have to pay taxes to the belgian government they are real for an intents and purposes

>>63889391
sure thing

>>63889546
btw, the fact that the F-22 radar is unsuited for BVR engagements against other LO aicraft came to attention after said red flag exercises, where in almost all excersises the F-35 more capable radar and sensor sharing with other F-35 allowed for a near perfect score againsts raptor tanker escorts during simulated bomber runs.
The F-22 radar being obsolete is common knowledge since the early fat amy days.