>The head of French aircraft manufacturer Dassault, Eric Trappier, has repeatedly pointed out in the past that his company is capable of building the fighter aircraft for the trilateral Future Combat Air System (FCAS) flagship project on its own. At the beginning of the Paris Air Show last week, he called for FCAS to focus more strongly on the fighter and for French industry to play a greater role in the project, thereby calling into question existing agreements regarding the division of labor. Alternatively, he hinted at pulling out of the program.

>If you put yourself in Trappier's position, his demands make perfect sense. Why should Dassault share the know-how yet to be developed for 6th generation fighter aircraft with Airbus on the basis of an inefficient and complex set of rules laid down in seven so-called pillars? Why invest time and effort in coordinating the FCAS project when the order books for the Rafale fighter jet are full to bursting and the development of a new generation of the aircraft plus a companion combat drone has already been commissioned by the French Ministry of Defense?

>On this side of the Rhine, Dassault's announcement should be understood correctly: Dassault wants clear leadership at FCAS and would otherwise - as the past few years have shown - keep shooting crossways or dropping out. A sensible product cannot be developed in this way.

>>63891382 (OP)
They pull this shit every time, I swear to God.

>The approach is understandable from a French perspective, but not in Germany's interest. Airbus Defence and Space would be permanently relegated to the second tier, with a corresponding impact on its technical expertise, industrial participation and jobs. The future viability of the company, in which the majority of the German military aviation industry is bundled, would be at stake.

>In any case, the underlying industrial structure of FCAS is questionable from a regulatory perspective. For example, the German FCAS prime Airbus Defense and Space (ADS) is part of the Airbus Group, in which the French and German states hold equally small stakes of just under 11 percent each - Spain holds around 4 percent - but which is headquartered in Toulouse and is ultimately French-dominated. This was demonstrated not least by the recent decision to cut a disproportionately high number of German jobs in ADS's weakening satellite division. In contrast, the purely French company Dassault represents its country's interests at FCAS.

>As the decisive phase 2 of the FCAS project is approaching, in which real flying demonstrators are to be developed following the studies of the past few years, now is a good time to bring the project to an end amicably and by mutual agreement. Otherwise, the course would be set in a way that can hardly be reversed.

>>What are the alternatives? While France, under the leadership of Dassault, could further advance its air combat capabilities, Germany has the opportunity for the first time in decades to push ahead with its own fighter aircraft development due to the sharp increase in defense funding. In doing so, the requirements of its own armed forces could also be better taken into account and no compromises would have to be made with regard to carrier capability and other requirements.

>The theory that Europe can only afford one military aviation project, which is repeatedly voiced in expert circles, must be questioned. Because then it would also be impossible for countries such as Turkey or South Korea to develop their own fighter aircraft despite their limited experience in aircraft construction and limited financial resources. The emergence of “disruptors” such as Kratos or Anduril on the US market also shows that it is possible to save massively on development costs by breaking new ground. Apparently, the US armed forces sometimes trust these newcomers more than the long-established players. There is no other explanation for the fact that the Air Force has narrowed down the competition for a collaborative combat aircraft to Anduril and General Atomics.

>There are also such innovators in Germany who could certainly make a contribution in some areas of FCAS. Moreover, the question arises as to whether the integration of Airbus Defense and Space into the parent company, with its rigid rules and national reservations, is still appropriate in a permanently growing market. The spin-off of Hensoldt from ADS and the state's minority stake in the company, which produces key German technologies, could serve as a blueprint here. A national FCAS project can certainly be coordinated with other partners, such as the Swedes, who are also working on the successor to their fighter jet. The same applies to the UK-led Global Combat Air Program (GCAP).

>Why should the world's (still) third-largest economy have no ambitions when it comes to aircraft development and permanently take second place? Especially as we are talking about products that will not be ready for the market until after 2040. Whereas in the past, when European aircraft developments failed to materialize, the USA, with its state-of-the-art technology, was always on hand as a supplier, this may no longer be the case in a decade and a half. This is not just about the shifts within NATO. With its debt policy and hostility towards science, the current US administration is not exactly improving the framework conditions for ambitious armaments projects.

>The example of the Leopard 2 main battle tank and the sales success of the Iris-T SLM air defense system show that national or even purely industry-driven development can pay off if an outstanding product is developed and the Bundeswehr is available as a partner. Incidentally, Germany was forced to develop the tank itself because the partnership with the USA for a new combat vehicle had previously broken down.

https://archive.is/0athc

>>63891382 (OP)
Why don't the French just shut the fuck up and make their own 6th generation fighter than? The first time that the French started acting out during the first shared european fighter development program should have been an instant "We shouldn't be working with these guys" from the other nations involved with the programs

>>63891382 (OP)
That right there is why no one wants to work with the french.

.

>>63891412
that's what the others did for the eurofighter and they made the rafale.
Dassault is a good company managed by retard, helped by a stupid bunch called the "french government", if the stupid bunch weren't so fucking stupid they could do tard wrangling and put Dassault back in its place and shut up but they won't because they hate anything related to military and don't care about it (May 1968 ideologist please understand)

>>63891382 (OP)
I hate the frogs so fucking much. Why do they ruin every project?

Why don't they just build a fighter on their own? It can't be that hard.

Germany and Spain should team up with Sweden to build their sixth gen. GCAP is too ugly.
And I say it again: Let the Germans design the sixth gen fighter.

>>63891740
it wouldn't look like the LOUT though
Airbus' design for FCAS is something generic like pic related

but I agree FCAS should be ended and Germany should team up with Spain and Sweden for a 6th gen.

The problem isn't France or Dassault or Airbus, it's trying to develop weapons for Germany. German defense companies only make money from selling to other countries. And if they're going to give up on German funding, there's no reason to bother partnering with Airbus.

>>63891382 (OP)
classic. now lets see them go to the legislature with that idea, and watch them cancel it because it might add a single cent tax to cigarettes somewhere to fund(the riots would result in the overthrow of the nation)

>>63891755
no, the problem is that Dassault wants more workshare than was agreed on.

>>63891762
...because they have no need for Airbus, because they're not getting the promised German funding.

>>63891740
Why didn't they use this as design template?

>>63891766
>they're not getting the promised German funding.
I hope they won't, but as of now, who says that? the program isn't cancelled yet.

>>63891769
the dorito can't turn like the F22

The french want a fighter for their carriers. Then they should go fifth generation instead of sixth generation.
That ability throws you back at least 1 generation.

>>63891778
>Concerning the MGCS, Rheinmetall joining in June 2019 upset
carefully calibrated national and industrial symmetries, for example
regarding the role of French subcontractors such as Thales, MBDA, Safran
and Atos. The heat was turned up by the German parliament which decided
to link progress and thereby funding of the FCAS to progress of the MGCS.

Page 16 of this official document :
https://www.ifri.org/sites/default/files/migrated_files/documents/atoms/files/ifri_mohring_fcas_mgcs_weapon_systems_2023.pdf

basically the german gov't will only fund when both FCAS and MGCS project show progress together at the same time

>>63891802
good news, this will hopefully bring both stupid projects to a sooner end.

>>63891802
>basically the german gov't will only fund when both FCAS and MGCS project show progress together at the same time
Based. The Germans learned from their mistakes.

>>63891811
plane and tanks don't use the same technology and can't be develloped at the same pace.
doing this will only rush things out and bring out a shit product nobody will want and will require even more maintenance and R&D down the line, this could end costing more than the F35 because of german stupidity

>>63891778
It's been over 7 years, how much money has Germany paid out compared to how much they've promised? And what are their prospects for actually completing an acquisition? When was the last time Germany actually acquired anything?

>>63891832
everything is in here
>>63891802
all country send funds at the same time, germany only decided to delay it to send for both project at the same time forcing rheinmetal in buying KNDS because the later couldn't keep up with the lack of funding

>we are still wasting billions into vanity projects for dogshit planes that will never be used in a real conflict
howling

>>63891848
could be worse, imagine spending billions on africa and the middle east

Your hatred of France blinds you to the fact that Trappier is right.
The current workload distribution, which is based on an equal national distribution between France and Germany, is terrible.
It must be based on the best company in each field.
In aviation, especially jet fighters, France is far ahead of Germany in every field.
Why doesn't France build a gen6 alone? Because France lacks money. That is the only reason France teamed up with Germany.
However, considering the current situation, France will probably leave Germany and find a more consilient wallet, such as Saudi Arabia.

>>63891394
>>63891399
>The theory that Europe can only afford one military aviation project, which is repeatedly voiced in expert circles, must be questioned
If you want a programme en par with the burgers or chinks, you do. germany is a very very distant third place economy

>>63891840
Your document details exactly the way that Germany has been stalling the program by withholding their promised funding. Everything I've said is correct. And even once the project is complete, Germany will drag their feet on actually purchasing the aircraft. What purpose is there for a collaboration when Dassault could have it finished by themselves in half the time, and not only will Germany never get around to buying any of them, they'll screech and piss themselves over selling to other countries?

>>63891828
>doing this will only rush things out and bring out a shit product nobody will want and will require even more maintenance and R&D down the line, this could end costing more than the F35 because of german stupidity
No, it will slow things down because no one actually wants a new tank anymore. MGCS was started because of panic about the T-14 and potential new T-90 variants, those never showed up and it's apparent now that all of the Soviet tanks are chronic underperformers, and lots of people think the MBT is dead as a concept. No German funding for MGCS means no German funding for FCAS, and Germany isn't going to spend a ton of money on new tanks when it turns out their existing tanks are already better than they need to be and the next generation might have all the same deficiencies anyway.

>>63891906
Thats what happen with Eurofighter.
Germany withheld funding, complained about how much it is costing, demanded a bigger workshare and then forced its partners (mainly the UK) to build the factory for them.

The french are notorious asshole primadonnas. My money is on GCAS.

The frogs even behave like they are the Lead for the MGCS. They don't even know how to build cars.

>>63892067
Because the frogs are in the making guns business and the krauts are in the not making guns business. None of these projects were ever going to work.

>>63892086
What

>>63892102
Germany doesn't buy military hardware, they just enter joint development deals and then don't buy the thing they developed and don't let the foreign partner sell it to anyone else.

With the rafale clearly being the worst of the 4th generation fighters, a dassault only FCAS would barely be 5th gen, yet alone 6th gen.

>>63891382 (OP)
>order books for the Rafale fighter jet are full to bursting
good lord the french really are full of themselves

>>63891801
lol

>>63892583
>have a bunch of orders on backlog
>don't scale up production
why

>>63891857
In which field is France actually made a progress since the 80s to actually warrant that they far ahead of Germany ? Be specific
And no, please stop citing an average 80s airframe, powered by an even worse m88 as the hallmark for French supposedly “superiority”

And, while France and Dassault busy jerking themselves off, Germs has been busy flying test the Polaris aerospike for the Aurora prototype spacedrone for the last 3 years, while all Dassault has for show is another 3d plastic model at the Paris air show this year.
Wow, that alone is what all we can see so far about French technological advancement ? :^)

And to be more relevant for this thread, tell me what exactly dassault has done for the last 30 years in the field of stealth, thrust vectoring, data link then ?
If not, they should shut up, cause they probably are far behind the Brits, the only tier 1 partner in the f-35 program, so at least with proven know-how in a stealth fighter program

>>63893100
To be clear, the 3d model I mentioned is the Vortex spaceplane concept
Also, considering how Dassault overhyped Spectra EW got humbled by chinesium back in May, french should be the last one that can brag about their technological superiority in military aviation

>>63893053
Because they are genuinely lazy and dont have an industrious mindset despite having a relatively good demographic (buoyed by immigrants and niggers). Their constant strikes and riots dont help.
Whatever “technology” they can muster is promptly stamped out by their inability to produce said technology.
Maybe, just maybe they can produce 6th gen by themselves but watch as it takes multiple decades for the frogs to make so much as a single squadron for themselves, much less for export.
Speaking of which, even the spokesman’s words belie france’s fear of Korea and turkey cutting into their market share.
Not looking good for the snail munchers

>>63893053
>Long lead items are looong

>>63893053
French work ethic

>>63891382 (OP)
Lot of French hate itt, and that's completely justified but it should be said that working with the Germans on anything defense related also sucks. Why they keep partnering with each other, I don't know.

>>63891802
>basically the german gov't will only fund when both FCAS and MGCS project show progress together at the same time

Uhhh maybe because both countries agreed that Dassault would lead and systems integrate the FCAS project while KMW would lead and integrate the MGCS project?
But Nexter is sperging out wanting to take over MGCS while Dassault is also sperging out wanting to take over all of FCAS instead of just leadership and system integration.
Frogs being retarded as usual. Any cooperation with them is doomed. They should just be universally excluded.

>>63891828
>plane and tanks don't use the same technology and can't be develloped at the same pace.

It's not about development pace, it's about Nexter trying to take over project leadership despite having zero experience and having signed a contract that says they're the junior partner.
While Dassault is trying to take over 100% workshare while getting funding from germany for the priviledge of later maybe being allowed to buy the finished product, excluding all german companies resulting in a worse product like rafale.

>>63891857
>It must be based on the best company in each field.
If that was the case french workshare would be 5%.
>In aviation, especially jet fighters, France is far ahead of Germany in every field.
Is that why the Rafale failed so spectacularly on the export market, has a 1980s tier engine, and got shot down by fucking pakis in TEMU jets?
German expertise in hot turbine technologies, flight control systems, advanced composites, etc is crucial.

French arrogance is boundless.

>>63893167
Look, I hate frogs as much as the next guy, but once again, when was the last time the krauts acquired literally anything? The problem here is Germany sinking both programs because they buy nothing and allow nothing to be exported. Although I will fully admit that the bigger retards are the French for knowing this and joining like their 20th franco-german joint development program anyway.

>>63893248
Maybe exporting them to thirdies like jeets, who also ruining the reputation of their golden goose just because french is too broke and desperate and they would literally sell them to anyone isn’t a good idea, then
French has no budget available to fund an actual 6th gen combat jet on their own anymore, but even that one is the least of the problems they are facing.
All Dassault are planning to do in 2030s is Rafale F5, follows on by some sort of Rafale “EVO” aka a stealth hornet in the 20 fucking 40s.

>>63893053
>>63893116
>>63893136
the French MiC has stayed alive by being just big enough to service the domestic market and a limited amount of exports. Growing to accommodate more exports leaves you at risk of going bust if the export market dries up.
The French state can't directly subsidize them due to EU market competition laws and it can't cover for a shortfall in orders because it can't afford to bloat it's military.
On top of that firing employees in France can be nightmarish. Simple economic expediency isn't enough unless you are going bankrupt and even then there are checks and balances.
So starting an extra production line isn't worth it for them. They can survive and turn a profit as is. Starting up the extra production line simply brings far to many risk.

>>63893265
>French has no budget available to fund an actual 6th gen combat jet on their own anymore, but even that one is the least of the problems they are facing.
You're not wrong, but FCAS would be getting more funding right now if Germany wasn't a part of it.

>>63893266
>neutered your MIC and expect to be treated seriously
I hate the frogs so much

>>63893265
bitching about the problems with the French doesn't excuse the Germans dragging their feet, again.
They had the massive defense spending announcement and then they turn around start skinflinting again.

>>63893285
yeah that totally didn't happen all around the continent after the cold war ended and keeping defense budgets as is became political suicide

>>63893281
in that case, maybe it’s time the Elysee should shut Trappier mouth up for once, since all he has done since 2019 is repeatedly asking for more work share based on his/dassault own assumptions that they ever have a huge technological advancement over Airbus fighter division in Manching, all while also having no budget leverage.
Seriously, their delusional is now on par with vatniks these days.
And again, neither germs or spaniards is paying for their carrier compatibility. French faggots can fund their own 6th gen catobar-capable if that’s what they want

>>63893285
>manage to keep a MiC alive that can build just about anything with less than 70 million people and a 4 trillion economy
>this is bad
please point me to the German carrier, the UK's domestic aircraft, the russian high end electronics or the mexican, canadian, and brazillian MiC in general

>>63893304
Good, then I’m sure the noble French can fund their own thirdie colonial war combat jet on their own, right ?
Cause no 1st world has any of a need of endless colonial wars, much like what the french are doing, and preparing anymore.
Restricting the performance only for it to fit on a carrier is not even something the US is doing.

>>63893290
which would be fine if 2008 and 2014 didn't happen
>>63893304
please point to me france's relevance to anything geopolitical

>>63893317
>endless colonial wars
what are you on about?
and it's not just the frogs that need carrier capable planes
the Spanish are also planning on replacing their carrier and that will also need a carrier wing.
the other project the Germans could get in on is also going to be carrier capable.
sorry but the Germans are going to have to pay the carrier tax unless they go at this alone of team up with Saab.
Why? because the countries working on 6th gen are carrier countries with the exception of Germany.

>>63893335
> Spanish carrier
Again, the Harrier isn’t anywhere like the NGF, and their future carrier would be more of a LHD, not a catobar, but nice diverting there.
And the brits, the one with an actual carrier class in service apart from France, isn’t looking to include the carrier take off capability onto the GCAP, so that’s another poor excuse

>>63891382 (OP)
Kek the french are one tier above china in term of engine technology and way behind china in semiconductor tecnology. They'd be struggling without Germany bailing them out

>>63893335
>the other project the Germans could get in on is also going to be carrier capable.
Which is?

okay. so we will have four 6th gens out of europe? FCAS, GCAP, Saab's 6th gen and Dassault's

>>63893594
He's talking about GCAP but he's incorrect. It is not designed to be carrier capable.
>>63893618
I would be surprised if FCAS continues after a French withdrawal and even more surprised if Saab produces a credible 6th gen. Even a 5th generation Saab fighter would be an impressive feat.

>>63893636
Belgium will join FCAS and fill the gap

>>63891382 (OP)
this guys company just got embarrassed by fucking Pakistan but he's talking like he single-handedly developed the F-22

>>63893618
I dont think saab will make a sucessor to the gripen, the whole project was a massive waste of money from their perspective. And the sad thing was that their biggest mistake was to use an US derived engine, which allowed the US to kill all their export options whenever it was competing with an US plane or trying to sell to a country the US doesn't like. Rolls royce was far more agreeable with the draken...

>>63893053
Too many small scale subcontractors that need extra money to ramp up production.
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2024/07/24/dassault-says-rafale-jet-production-ramp-up-hit-by-supply-chain-snags/

Apparently they are trying to go from 2 planes a month last year, 3 planes a month this year and 5 planes a month next year, depending on budget.

>>63891761
>a single cent tax to cigarettes
It's fucking insane how expensive cigarettes are here

>>63893829
Yeah, except Rafale already admitted their year that instead they're going to aim for 2.5 per month. We'll see how that pans out, but it doesn't look good if they're already shortselling themselves.

>>63893636
>>63893794
>>63893618
I think it would be good if Germany and Spain teamed up with Sweden to develop a stealth fighter. Should be possible with the combined industry and Germany's expanded defence budget.

>>63891412
France don't need europoors, other europoors need France.

>>63892945
f35 is not 6th generation lol

Su-57+Su-75

>>63894104
that looks cool as fuck, where did they showcase that?

>>63891382 (OP)
Why are the french so arrogant? If they had a good track record I could understand it, but look at the Rafale, the first time it saw combat it got shredded by some fucking pakis in a chinese jet.
Meanwhile the GCAP finalized the joint venture and is going smoothly.
>Why should Dassault share the know-how yet to be developed for 6th generation fighter aircraft with Airbus on the basis of an inefficient and complex set of rules laid down in seven so-called pillars? Why invest time and effort in coordinating the FCAS project when the order books for the Rafale fighter jet are full to bursting and the development of a new generation of the aircraft plus a companion combat drone has already been commissioned by the French Ministry of Defense?
Age old frog mentality of wanting other countries to put in partner amounts of money but then wanting the geo returns, know how etc to be kept 100% in france. Just make your FCAS all alone then so that you'll be left with a rafale in a bodykit.

>>63891857
>Why doesn't France build a gen6 alone? Because France lacks money
then they should shut the fuck up and come to terms with the fact they need our money. Jesus Christ I will pray every night that we'll join the GCAP.

>>63894104
ITT Americans crying about the frogs will of strategic independence

>>63893932
it can be with an upgrade.
While there is not clear definition for 6th gen, being a tailless dorito isn't a prerequisite. An upgrade package in sensors, swarm drone capabilites etch to a 5th gen would make it a 6th gen just like an F-16 depending on the block can go from late 3rd gen to 4+ gen

>>63894210
Strategic indipendence is a good thing, Muhammed. Burning to the ground every single joint program and partnership you enter because you're a bunch of arrogant assholes with a deeply rooted inferiority complex is not a good thing.
You will never fly a 6th gen aircraft. You aren't even able to make a 5th gen.

>>63894163
The frogs are 100% more advanced than any european country in fighter tech and try to make everything at home so it's understandable that they don't want to share all those years of struggles and research just because other countries are huge fags that are not even buying European products anyway

>>63894220
>The frogs are 100% more advanced than any european country in fighter tech
How come they immediately lost to the pakis then?
>it's understandable that they don't want to share all those years of struggles
Then don't ask Germany and Spain to be partners in the FCAS, just make it and offer them to buy it as a product.
You can't expect someone to contribute an enourmous amount of money into a project just to then be told:
>hon hon hon sacre bleau, fuck you you're just a customer hon hon hon.

>>63894219
You have to understand the pdg of Dassault said from the beginning that he was forced by Macron (which is a Europe cuck) to develop the 6th gen fighter with European players but he's doing everything to avoid it because they understandably don't want to share 50 years of free r&d, because while every other countries were buying the US planes the "arrogant" frogs just did their thing and stuck to doing everything by themselves even if it meant having to lag behind. I think it's a good strategy, but of course it makes everyone else cry

>>63893927
I'd rather be a colony of Poland than having a mutual relationship with fr*nce you disgusting frog fucker.

>>63894240
>pooland
The can't even build tanks.
Europoors outside of France and Germany are worthless.

>>63894234
>How come they immediately lost to the pakis then?
I literally said European country, faggot. Yes US and Chinese tech is superior. Doctrine is a thing too.
>Then don't ask Germany and Spain to be partners in the FCAS, just make it and offer them to buy it as a product.
Yes that's what Dassault wanted to do before it was forced to do the project with you nazi faggots. I understand from the outside it looks like we are just pulling off and it's Dassault fault, but irl that's what happened
>Hey trapier it's macron, your overlord controlled by the Jews, build me a 6th gen with our European friends because I need to suck them off, you know just like when we replaced our FAMAS
>Hon hon, sorry macron but I'm not doing that
>No, you don't have a choice
>Sacre bleu i'll try my best to sabotage your idea and every non leftist french is with me

>>63894238
>ou have to understand the pdg of Dassault said from the beginning that he was forced by Macron (which is a Europe cuck) to develop the 6th gen fighter with European players
Which is a good thing.
>understandably don't want to share 50 years of free r&d
True, but you have to be pragmatic, you either share or you don't have a 6th gen plane and your country influence will wane even more than it already has in the last 20 years
>frogs just did their thing and stuck to doing everything by themselves even if it meant having to lag behind.
And that is admirable, but you can't have the same D'assault CEO complain that other european countries don't want to buy european or french products when as a customer of a french jet you get told to fuck off and you will not be able to advance the capabilities of your industries. Even the mutts had no issue jointly developing the F-35 yet you want to act like self centered cunts to what would become literally Tier 1 partners.
I mean, you do you, just stop complaining.

>>63894255
>Yes that's what Dassault wanted to do before it was forced to do the project with you nazi faggots. I understand from the outside it looks like we are just pulling off and it's Dassault fault, but irl that's what happened
>>Hey trapier it's macron, your overlord controlled by the Jews, build me a 6th gen with our European friends because I need to suck them off, you know just like when we replaced our FAMAS
>>Hon hon, sorry macron but I'm not doing that
>>No, you don't have a choice
>>Sacre bleu i'll try my best to sabotage your idea and every non leftist french is with me
yeah, nice fanfiction

>rafale produced: 240
>downed:1 confirmed 4 more suspected
>Eurochad Typhoon produced: 609 with way more to go
>downed: 0
We can't stop winning.

>>63894257
Your point is fair, if we want to do everything by ourselves and it's inferior in the end because we are too poor, then we shouldn't complain that nobody is buying it BUT honestly if we develop our plane with Germany, the end product will still be inferior to US tech because let's be honest (french arrogance now) what will Germany add that France doesn't have ? Just money ? The project is capped by the country with the highest tech, adding money won't remove all the years of lagging behind that we have accumulated in Europe, and so anyway nobody will buy it against US tech

>>63894263
That's literally what happened and here's the video :
https://www.youtube.com/live/1ymR-aIAXUs

>>63894275
If you toned down your arrogance, Germany and Spain would buy it because they are partners, with their money the unit cost would decrease, increasing the sales on the outside consortium sales, the technology sharing would make the EU as a whole more competitive and prone to buying european.
Do everything yourself? product is too inferior, cost is too high, not even euros will buy it so why would other countries, more division in europe, less cooperation in the future.
You have the perfect opportunity with the TACO in chief in the US making everyone think twice about buying american products and you blow your chance just because of arrogance.

>>63894296
I think I'm talking for every French person here : I prefer my country not selling a single plane (0) and lagging behind by a full generation than giving a single fuck about all the cum gaglers at our borders. Our planes for our military, everything else is secondary

>>63894312
Good, then stop crying. Just don't complain when with your mentality you'll become literally the next South Africa.

>>63894315
Yeah see you in 250 years when we will still be there to piss you off (if macron finally stops importing browns)

>>63894163
This reminds me when brits wouldn't stop touting the chally 2 as the greatest tank of all times and the second it saw combat action it immediately got shat on by Lancets lol

>>63894343
>if macron finally stops importing browns)
Dude, 40% of your country is already brown and their birth rates are 2x higher than yours, in 250 years you will be here, you will piss us off, but not for the reasons you think.

>>63893304
>German carrier
A country with no overseas territory, post colonial sphere of influence, direct access to only two relatively small seas and in the middle of a bunch of friendly countries with their own airforces and willing to share their airports should construct a carrier
The need for one carrier is a uniquely french one and dare I say; they are overextending and worse off for it

>>63894312
>cum gaglers at our borders
French people aren't allowed inside France anymore?

>>63893335
>Germans are going to have to pay the carrier tax unless they go at this alone of team up with Saab.
we're most likely going with the GCAP

>>63894255
> 100% more advanced than any european country
do list those areas that frenchniggers supposed to be more advanced, shall we ?
and it should be relevant to the 6th gen topic.
So bragging about building an already underpowered engine on your own even back when it first entered service isn't a sign of technological superiority, Pierre Saljay al-Muhammad.
And MTU contributed quite significant on one of the best turbofan ever equipped on a fighter jet, so they are far from a rookie player in this field.
The same can be said about Airbus, with the vast experience from its MBB days, especially with the X-31 program

>>63894584
As a customer or a junior partner perhaps. GCAP is now in full development and prototyping. Japan isn't likely to tolerate anything that'll cause delays.

>>63894793
>As a customer or a junior partner perhaps
Still better than staying in FCAS

>>63894872
Probably true. The requirements seem more in tune with Germany's needs at least.

>>63891723
Renseigne toi avant de dire de la merde. Tu es un embarras pour les vrais français

>>63894916
Nah, unlike you he has the brain and emotional maturity to admit fault and not just go "nuh huh inshallah we are the best"
what a faggy language

Everyone should build their own fighter, so we get an array of cool/stupid shit like its the late 50's/early 60's again.
Kids of the future are going to have the most boring WW3 flight sims if everyone’s flying the same shit.

You don't partner with a country stupid enough to close down all its nuclear power plants in fear of a fucking tsunami in Germany to replace them with fucking windmills and solar panel (= effectively replacing with coal like a third world shithole and zigger natgas).
Simple as.
Period.

>>63895089
Then why are you crying that we wont pay you?

My honest reaction to that information.

>>63894433
that's not what the annon said

>>63894365
I'll take, "Delusional Zigger Fever Dreams" for $500, Alex

>>63895133
All I'm seeing here is retards crying about France going its own way without dealing with proven retards taking retarded decisions.
That's the reality here.

>>63895297
Except france is not going its own way, its demanding germany and spain to pay up and let france do everything. Without their money france will have to scrap the project and keep flying the rafale hoping they never meet any 4th gen adversary

>>63895294
>seething brit cuck had to summon tranny janny to delete the post because it hurt xir feelings
kek

>>63895408
France could scrape the budget together if it had to do it on it's own. It would involve cuts elsewhere but it has the economy and know how to pull it off.
They could also try to rope some smaller EU and non Eu countries into it to make up for the lost funding.
And if they do it on their own they now have a product that they can go and try to market to the rest of the world without needing anyone else's approval. So countries like india would probably end up buy once their program fails or if the other produces refuse to sell to them.
it would be the least effective 6th gen on offer tough.

The question in the end is would France be willing to pay the cost of producing their own kit and so keeping their nuclear umbrella domestic.
history shows they most likely would.

>>63893248
>Look, I hate frogs as much as the next guy, but once again, when was the last time the krauts acquired literally anything?

Are you fucking retarded? Germany spends more than France on aquisitions.

>allow nothing to be exported

Germany is a massive weapons exporter, fucking Leopard 2 has 30+ Operators world wide.

>>63894793

Not just the delays. Japan has clauses in their contract that the technology that came out of the F-XX program cannot be shared outside of the already existing group.

>>63894255

Nice fanfic. But it's simpler:
>France has expertise but no money
>Germany has expertise and money
>France wants a carrier capable aircraft to bomb and sell their colonies as well as stick it to the anglos
>Germany is essentially a neutered country that just needs a defensive jet to spook Russia
>Germany caved in on the carrier requirements by France
>Because this has severe impact on the planes capabilities yet serves no benefit to Germany they rightly demanded to own 33% [1] of the innards to be German
>Dassault spergs out because they get less money out of the entire deal

France could've dropped the carrier requirements and gotten a lot more of the pie but they still need to play napoleon. The idea that France does anything but for themselves is fairytale of country that cannot cope with the fact that has been relegated to play 12th fiddle in the world orchestra.

Dassault is giving a pokerface but holds nothing. Their 4th gen fighter is just now becoming cheap enough for turdies to buy. Even if they are able to shart out something that resembles 6th gen fighter in 20 years they will neither have the industrial facilities nor the demand to make this endeavor economically viable.

Germany should just buy the f35 and upgrade it. And if they want to go bananas work together with embraer, saab and/or italy as these countries much closer resemble their use cases.

Just buying GCAP will also be a viable option. Hell, with MTU being part of Rollsroyce so Germany is likely to produce parts for GCAP anyways.


[1] https://en.defence-ua.com/industries/three_nails_into_fcas_fighter_program_paris_calls_for_frank_talk_with_partners-14845.html

>>63895425
Oh hey warriortard

>>63895573
>France wants a carrier capable aircraft to bomb and sell their colonies
what with your "colonies" obsession?
the French want them to be carrier capable because they will be using them as a part of their nuclear deterrent. Being able to launch them from a carrier gives their deterrence more credibility.
if the Germans had the expertise and the money to make a 6th gen on their own why didn't they just do it then. Partnering up with tow other countries clearly shows they haven't the capacity or the funds to do so.

>>63895619
> nuclear deterrence
> has to be carrier capable
In what year of our lord would being able to deploy air launched nuclear missile means the plane also has to be carrier-capable ?
If anything, deploying your airborne nuclear deterrence from a carrier significantly reduce its combat effectiveness, since well, the carrier is a giant glorified mobile airbase that can be tracked even with cheap commerce satellites, unlike an ssbn
> start shifting the conversation to germs again since he ran out of believable arguments
Good, Im sure can’t wait to see what you Frenchmutts would be able to cook up in 20 years, hopefully that won’t be a rafale in a bodykit

>>63895481
>France could scrape the budget together if it had to do it on it's own.
It can't
>They could also try to rope some smaller EU and non Eu countries into it to make up for the lost funding
You can't, everyone knows what it's like working with the french
>it would be the least effective 6th gen on offer tough.
It wouldn't even be 5th gen

Kinda funny that americans euros and chinks are all arguing over who will have the better 6th gen when russia still hasn't managed to put into production a 4th gen jet like the SU-57 codename woodscrew

so what's the most likely alternative for the German air force once FCAS inevitably fails?
more F-35 and upgraded Eurofighters seems like a no-brainer, but beyond that?
loyal wingman together with Spain/Sweden?
license producing GCAP?

Seeing that the FCAS is the second fighter program that France has sabotaged, why didn't they try to get the UK and Italy on board in a joint development before they could create the GCAP?
The UK, Italy and Japan all have multiple aircraft carriers and Italy has said they are considering a CATOBAR carrier for the 2050s.
This would have given France leverage to push for their carrier capable FCAS, instead they decided to partner up with countries that either have zero need for a carrier jet like Germany and Spain who doesn't care about military spending and wouldn't be able to use a CATOBAR FCAS that the frogs need.

>>63895706
>more F-35 and upgraded Eurofighters seems like a no-brainer, but beyond that?
That seems to be the non meme answer. The EF consortium already stated they are ramping up production and giving them MLUs.
>loyal wingman together with Spain/Sweden?
useless unless they can work with the F-35
>license producing GCAP
Unless they fully enter a partnership they wouldn't allow them to license build them. It wouldn't even make sense with the need of Germany.
It's either skipping the 6th gen, entering fully in GCAP or accepting to buy GCAP at a "outsider" price

>>63895724
> catobar carrier
No the uk, Italy and even japan will be using F-35 for that
The GCAP catobar compatibility is already explicitly excluded

>>63895773
Did you read my post? Italy is planning to build a catobar in the future for the end of service of the 35Bs. If France had convinced them, convincing japan and The UK would've been simpler. Hell, they could've developed a joint carrier programme à la FREMM.

>>63895724

simple because nobody wants to work with the french.

- France wanted a catobar jet
- Germany didn't want a catobar jet
- After arduous discussions: France gets a catobar jet. Germany gets a jet compromised for their usecase but economically viable technology/manufacturing split
- 3 years later:
>hon hon, we can do these jets alone! Germany not needed! Give moneys and be happy by just watching us building the jet you don't need!

Yeah, why does nobody want to work with the french again?

>programs with UK and France : goes well
>programs with Italy and France : goes well
>programs with Germany and France : never gets anywhere
Really makes you think

>>63895706
>license producing GCAP?
Please not. That shit is ugly as fuck.
>so what's the most likely alternative for the German air force once FCAS inevitably fails?
I hope we build our own. And yes, guess what, we have the know-how.

>>63895671
did you even read my post?
if your rely on nukes launched by fighter jets there is a very real limit to the range you have.
you could base them forward but then you are subject to the will of the country you are basing from.
if you nuclear capable plane is carrier capable you extend your potential range a lot.
it is force multiplier for your nuclear deterrence.
If your nuclear deterrence is credible then your conventional force doesn't need to be as capable.
but as a non nuclear country I sure Germany and Germans struggle to understand this. you can't even keep a civilian nuclear program going after all.
>start shifting
You claimed that Germany has the expertise and the money, hence why doesn't Germany just go at it alone from the start.
>Frenchmutt
leck mir im Arsch en mijn kloten oook
>it can't
it's economy is almost as large as the German at 4.3 trillion
>can't work with the frogs
germany can't
and that's the crux of your posts
you have a hate boner for the frogs, nothing said would ever convince you. Because you are blinded by your hate.
every french capability has to be dismissed because how can the frogs have x while the Germans don't. Like wise every shortcoming of Germany needs to swept up.
So let my give my experience as a neutral third country.
There is no flexibility in Germans, there is no warmth in them.
Even when you are doing your level best to work with them in German they will snub you because you didn't use the right obscure jargon word most Germans don't even know.
They will always pay on the last day of the payment term or better yet send you a notice on the last day that you forgot an ¨ or you used ss instead of ß so you have to do the paperwork all over again and the payment term is reset k thx by.
For all the many, many flaws the French have, they will at least try to work with you and appreciate the effort you put in.

>>63896289
You havent built a jet since ww2

>>63891394
>The Americans trust upstart innovators like Anduril and Kratos, we should be like the Americans and innovate!
>>63891399
>The Americans are hostile to science and won't be a viable supplier of weapons in 15 years!

A bit schizophrenic, but some good points in there too. Germany is the 3rd largest economy in the world. If the fucking Turks and Worst Korea can make a fighter, Germany should be able to on their own.

>>63896373
>If the fucking Turks and Worst Korea can make a fighter
They can't, though.

>>63894952
>"drop" tanks on top of the wings
>two (2) missiles attached to the fuselage
Remind me again why the bongs were allergic to underwing hardpoints throughout the 60's?

>>63896422
>>If the fucking Turks and Worst Korea can make a fighter
>They can't, though.
They clearly have made the Kaan and the FA-50. I'm definitely not saying they're F-35 tier, probably not even F-15EX tier, but they are viable options for their developers and will likely sell on the export market. More importantly, both countries are building expertise that may lead to better products down the road. There's no reason Germany can't start down the same path.

>>63896461
Kaan doesn't exist and the FA-50 is maybe F-16C tier. Germany built a more capable aircraft than either 20 years ago.

>>63895573
what is ridiculous is they can only afford a single carrier but they have to shit up the whole european defence procurement to get carrier capable planes, maybe use the many islands you have around the world as airbases instead of that floating piece of shit a single sub can sink without effort

>>63896422
https://www.koreaittimes.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=132536
>Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) announced on June 25th that it has signed its first mass production contract for the KF-21 Korean Fighter Jet with the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA).

>The contract includes the production of 20 KF-21 jets along with follow-up logistical support (technical manuals, training, etc.), amounting to a total of 1.96 trillion won.

>The KF-X project for the Korean Fighter Jet system development aims to replace the long-serving F-4 and F-5 aircraft of the Air Force with a 4.5-generation fighter that aligns with future battlefield operational concepts. The development process began in 2015.

>The total development period is slated to be 10 years and 6 months, with system development expected to be completed by 2026. Mass production deliveries are planned to commence at the end of 2026, with the goal of integrating the jets into the Korean Air Force’s operations.

>>63896290
>leck mir im Arsch en mijn kloten oook
Holy shit, either you have to be the very first genuinely retarded dutchmutt/belgianmutt that i ve ever seen or i'm even having doubt that you are just trolling now.

> Downgrade Air to air and combat radius performance to accommodate CATOBAR-capable
> uhm akshually putting them on a carrier will significantly extends their combat
> Except now, the said aircraft is now on a big ass carrier in the middle of the ocean, easily tracked by any country with a functional space agency, hell, you can even buy up-to-date maxar sat pics for 30 bux,
> With your shitty carrier being tracked in real time and vulnerable to even a nigger-rigged ASBM built by sandnigger techs.
> Sandniggers deploys said ASBM
> Your shitty carrier is hit

Congratulation, now your whole airborne nuclear deterrence is out of action.
And don't you compare an regular airbase to a carrier if what you intended to to merely host those nuke planes
Knocking out the land-based airstrip for any extended amount of time would require using so much conventional munitions that they might as well use nuke instead.
On the other hand, 1 missile and your shitty half-assed carrier will be sitting in the dry dock for months

But hey, you niggers actually forfeited the 212CD, an upgraded successor to the 212A with a proven submerged duration of over 3 weeks in exchange for french shitty full lithium-ion on a downgraded SSN hull, and you couldn't even bother to try to upkeep the original requirement (integrate the TLAM) onto it, instead of settling with the inferior french variant - MDCN, so i don't see much use discussing with some military illiterate retard.
TLDR for you; dutchmutt/belgianmutt is irrelevant in world political and military matter, so your opinion is invalid :^)

>>63897808
>TLDR for you; dutchmutt/belgianmutt is irrelevant in world political and military matter, so your opinion is invalid :^)
Well germany hasn't been relevant since the 40ies so I guess that goes for both of us then butthurt bernd

>>63895481
Stop overestimating exports, froggy
NGAD exports arent off the table not to mention the gcap.
You cant come up eith a songle reason why anyone would be willing to buy from a country with no economy of scale. You just cant do it, snail muncher

>>63896621
>maybe use the many islands you have around the world as airbases
But France does. It has many unsinkable aircraft carriers all around the world. Hence why it's not really an issue for France to only have 1 carriers instead of 2, though it would still be better obviously.

>>63897867
> ran out of arguments
> start no U-ing instead
either you
> belgianmutt
lol
> dutchmutt
the only thing that's even remotely worth mentioning is ASML, and they wouldn't be a thing without Zeiss :^)

But to answer your original faggy rambling
Neither Germs or Frenchmutts can afford a 6th gen combat on their own.
Germs has some expertise in certain areas, the same goes for frenchmutts.
Wanna guess which one currently has a (much) fatter bag though ? And i am be sure it aint frenchmutts :^)

>>63897945
you stopped arguing and started seething about days ago
>(much) fatter bag though
>French GDP 4.35 trillion
>German GDP 4.7 trillion
congrats you haven't even a 1/10 bigger economy
you live in dreams of Groß Deutschland von Rhein bis den Memel. But you live in a Germany that doesn't even have Elsass-Lotharingen.
You vastly, vastly over estimate what Germany can do never mind what it has the will to do.
But you see just how little it does and how irrelevant Germany is, it's even losing it's dominant position in the EU.
So you seethe about the french, because that is the easy thing to do, because that's all you can :^)

>>63897945
>>63898035
can you two faggots get a room and stop derailing the thread? thanks.

>>63898045
It's not me who's derailling the thread, bozo
>>63898035
/pol/ is to the left, frenchmutt diaspora. We are discussing FCAS here.
But it's good to know that any mention of french deteriorating budget can easily rile up faggots like you :^)

>>63897894
>NGAD exports arent off the table not to mention the GCAP
If NGAD exports where on the table there wouldn't be an GCAP or an FCAS or did you think the bongs and Japs didn't bother asking the US first?
no those programs got started because the US isn't planning on exporting the NGAD.
who else would the US export the NGAD to besides the GCAP and FCAS countries?
it has to be countries they like, they trust and that can buy in bulk.
there isn't really anyone out there that meets those requirements and that doesn't have it's own program going. Just look at the f-35 user countries and numbers. Exporting NGAD to the rest of them isn't worth the increased work, risk of leaks ect. for the US.
As for GCAP, it would require an constitutional amendment in Japan to export it and Japan hasn't given any indication it even wants to export it. So Brits and Italians would have to force the Japanese to amend their constitution against their own desire.
it could happen, but I don't think anyone is holding it's breath on that.
This is also why the frogs are being so frustrated with the Germans and hence acting up.
FCAS could fill up the 6th gen export market for countries like India, Indonesia, the oil Arabians ect.
But at 33% work share the Germans can cock block everything and they probably would because Germany isn't a normal country it's a guilt complex with (open)borders.
Now going into the deal knowing this is a mistake the French made and why they are now bitching about it trying to get it changed.
they may be arrogant pricks but you have to give it to them that they have clear idea of what they want and how to get there.

>>63898045
it's fun to poke brend, you know he's proper butthurt when he breaks out the emoticons

>>63898076
> not a single counter argument to these>>63895671 >>63897808
> no yu seething !!!

So tell me, from a technical aspect. What has Dassault and Safran, the two important pillars in French aeronautical industry done in the last 30 years since the introduction of Rafale in the field of VLO research, thrust vectoring control, data link between systems to really warrant them being o-high-and-mighty over GCAP countries and Spain+Germany then ?

You do know that MBB( now Airbus fighter division in Manching) did the work in collaboration with the US for the X-31 program, right ?
Still waiting for a proper answer from you :^)

>>63898090
you don't make arguments so I don't have to counter them
you just say that France is poor, it clearly isn't and they can't design or build things which they clearly can since they only use stuff they've designed and build themselves
just like this post
You ask what has France done in the last 30 years and then you give a what the Germans did 30 years ago and with a German partner company that went bankrupt, got bought and is now in the hands of the Americans very Deuthcland übber alles.
There's one standard for France and an other for Germany. So there's no debate to be had, just poking fun at your spergery

How come Germany still can't current-era fighter jet engines? You'd think there's a market for Germany to have its own Rolls Royce and sell to whoever.

>>63898130
kek just as i predicted, more schizo ramblings

> they only use stuff they've designed and build themselves
good, now tell me what happened to the much vaunted Spectra EW on the jeets Rafale just a month ago ?

> what has France done in the last 30 years
still no answer, so it's safe for me to assume that Dassault and Safran were too busy wanking over themselves to do any proper R&D then ?

>There's one standard for France
the one setting the standard of high-and-might sure as hell would be the country who proud themselves of being able to build a (mediocre) 4th gen on their own, and ironically, got dabbed on by TEMU jets last month.

Niggers always play victim, and considering the current French demographics, it kind suit you well :^)

>>63898144
just look at how you skip over how the X-31 was over 30 years ago and that the german partner is now in american hands.
that's all the proof anyone needs to see that you are using double standards and that can't be any honest discussion with you.
that's it

>>63898151
which part of Manching division is in the US hands, my dear Pierre al-Muhammad friend ?
Are you frog monkey really out of any decent arguments that resorting to schizo mumblings is all you can do now ?

>>63898144
We don't know what the rafale pilots were doing, and india isn't telling. What he do know is that no further planes were lost in the days afterwards after "a change of tactics", whatever that means.

>>63898172
Good, so the wunder SPECTRA EW doesn't quite seems to be so advanced then

So perhaps French, especially Trappier should be the last one to brag about their aeronautical technological superiority in any work share negotiation, then.

>>63898163
>X-31
>It was designed and built by Rockwell and Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm
>In 1989, MBB was taken over by Deutsche Aerospace AG (DASA), which was renamed "Daimler-Benz Aerospace" in 1995. Following the 1998 merger of the German industrial group Daimler Benz and the American company Chrysler Corporation
Airbus isn't German, it's Pan European with a bit of American thrown in. It is as much French as it is German.

>>63895706
Is Germany channeling their inner Belka after all?

>>63898187
Never once did I ever claim it is ?
But that post might actually upset our frog monkey friend
Since Airbus is all about French, and French-only :^)

>>63898177
For all we know they might not have even activated spectra thinking it would be stealthier, or thought that having countermeasures meant they wouldn't have to maneuver out of the way of the missile; i can't underestimate the potential of indian incompetence.

And the french are be arrogant, but not arrogant enough to avoid trying to figure out if there was some weakness in their systems that needed to be corrected, although the indians wouldn't allow it.

https://defencesecurityasia.com/en/fog-of-denial-indias-rafale-debacle-deepens-as-western-partners-demand-answers/

>>63893149
France/Germany cooperation is the raison d’être of the European Union, so boomers think it’s somehow relevant and that if it doesn’t happen, it’ll be another world war or something.

>>63891399
The fact Korea and Turkey are going to get 5th gens and the US and China will have 6th Gens before Europe gets a single prototype should tell dassault just how retarded European defence procurement.

Also if they want to actually build 500 jets with decent logistical support then they need to commit to one project.

>As for GCAP, it would require an constitutional amendment in Japan to export it and Japan hasn't given any indication it even wants to export it. So Brits and Italians would have to force the Japanese to amend their constitution against their own desire.
They've already made an exception for GCAP. Also their weapon export ban isn't really a constitutional thing but some cabinet level policy.

>>63898602
meant for >>63898070

.

>>63891382 (OP)
we are looking at a country that has an indigenous population that is willing to fight and die for it's preservations and a countrhy who's population is not willing to, and in addition is a vassal of the united states. it literally doesnt matter what tech and gear germany procures. german politicians have been against native germans through their actions since reunification. german millenials, genx and gen z have an idealistic view regarding violence. "we will show the world the right way" as the kids these days would say, the classic german country and identity is cooked.

recently spoke to a german in their early 20's, the use of english substitute words is disgusting.

>>63899801
Neulich in Frankreich angerufen...war mal wieder besetzt.

>>63899801
> a country that has an indigenous population that is willing to fight and die for it's preservations
Which one ???

>>63898365
>Turkey are going to get 5th gens
doubtful unless they get the f35

>>63901570
Definetly not France. I've been there. more black people than french

>>63891753
>>63891740
Let Embraer join
Imagine a joint venture 35% Sweden - 30% Germany - 20% Brazil - 10% Spain - 5% Portugal

.

.

>>63902849
>Embraer
Hues are lucky if they're not bankrupt alrewady.

>>63891740
>Let the Germans design the sixth gen fighter
>can't even into 4th gen let alone 5th gen
Them being able to join Eurofighter Typhoon was at the mercy of BAE.

>>63907193
is that what proud Brits tell themselves when they get sad that their country can't even build a proper rifle on its own anymore?

>>63898070
Way to out yourself as a fucking schizoid indonigger
As low as india, saudis, and uae are in terms of military, they arent so low that they would rub shoulders with the likes of motherfucking indo-fucking-nesia. A country so fucking irrelevant that they cant even come up with an original name.
Taking on massive debt to buy rafales and you shill for them online. What a deal for froggies. Unfortunately, literally nobody wants irrelevant indonigs to be a 5th gen capable country, much less 6th gen. Have fun paying a premium for leftover 4th gens, subhuman

>>63891382 (OP)
>>63891389
>>63891394
>>63891394
>>63891399
So, same antics as in brief French participation in Eurofighter. Frogs demanding all the benefits of program for them and leaving the bill for other participating nations that will no do anything other for program than fund it.
>>63891412
>make their own 6th generation fighter than?
They can't afford to develop it alone.

>>63891382 (OP)
Germany has all the subcontractors for their own program. They make jet engines, the electronics, radars, materials/coating, radios and all the avionics and just dont have a prime contractor to integrate them and develop them into a finished product.

They already have a relationship with Lockheed and the obvious solution would just be to form a prime contractor out of ADS and some smaller companies and cooperate with American companies for consulting on stuff they cant figure out quickly.

The German defense budget will likely go up significantly over the next years and they could likely afford paying more to compensate. France on the other hand is pretty broke and already runs a 6% of GDP budget deficit with little fiscal space.

>>63910729
I hope that will be done
hopefully with Spain and Sweden as partners

>>63910729
>They make jet engines
lol
>the electronics
lol
>radars
lol
>materials/coating
lol
>radios and all the avionics
LOL

>>63911725
They do, though. You turdies seem to really like to underestimate Germany.

>>63911767
>They do
KEK
>You turdies seem to really like to underestimate Germany.
KEKERINOS

>>63911817
Did you bob your head when laughing?

>>63911725
not exactly a germany expert but i did some googling and it seems like they do.

>>63895724
Because they cant bully the UK or Japan into letting them take the lead

>>63911992
They can't bully Italy either. It's just with Germany that they have a inferiority complex and try to always bully them. Look at the FREMM development when they tried to force Italy to use the CAPTAS-4 or when france tried to move all the production to France for all of the parts of the ATR42 and they got told to fuck off.
>>63911725
>>63911817
>no arguments
You're free to prove him wrong with some actual facts, you know?

>>63911992
For the uk, it’s arguably that maybe Roll Royce might has some lead over MTU. Even then, MTU did a fair share of contributions in the EJ200
Though the uk participation as a 1st tier partner in the F-35 couldn’t be understated at all.
On japan case, I seriously doubt they are really ahead of Germany in aerospace at all, and ofc even with the X-2
>>63911992
> take the lead
I’m sure airbus Germany would be more than happy to let them take the role if Dassault can actually show that they actually possessing any advanced FCS other than the one currently on a cut-down 4th gen airframe that just been humiliated by chinkcrafts
“Muh best athletes” from Trappier actually mean “French first, French only”

>>63912067
>I seriously doubt they are really ahead of Germany in aerospace at all
Japan is more advanced in terms of pure technology and R&D, but they can't move even a fraction of the volume of orders that Germany does.

>>63911725
Good argument kiddo

>>63911725
>>63911817
If you are here just to shitpost, the you are on the wrong board.

>>63912088
> pure technology and R&D
Perhaps, still that’s a very bold thing to say since developing a combat jet require advancements in multiple fields
> engine
Can say Japan is a heavy weight in this with the xf9
> fcs
Remain to be seen
> VLO
Maybe a parity with the x-2, still to be seen

>>63912198
Shit, forgot to mention, there’s Diehl on German side, too

>>63911918
>>63912019
>>63912167
>>63912171
>>63912198
All the semiconductors used in the world come from East Asia. Europoors can't even power their EV without chips produced in Asia, which is the same for the military equipment.

>>63912258
and the East Asians can't make those chips without European Lithography machines

>>63891382 (OP)
Classic Merkelian mistake just like wir schaffen das. Should’ve just bought American or work together with the Brits again.

>>63912274
>and the East Asians can't make those chips without European Lithography machines
Not much of ASML's EUV machine is European though. Majority of the components are from Japan and the US, and it's main R&D center is in the US.

>>63912290
oh gee it's almost like we live in a globalized world where every production chain involves inputs from all over the world
making x produces y posts look like they where made by brain dead thurdies

>>63912295
>oh gee it's almost like we live in a globalized world where every production chain involves inputs from all over the world
Except the fact that Europe has been left out with almost zero significance. Even the auto industry, one of its last safe havens, is being actively intruded by chink EVs left and right these days.

>>63912333
>intruded by chink EVs left and right these days
Only in the US where you don't have any customer protection laws.

>>63912342
>Only in the US where you don't have any customer protection laws.
US charges 250% tariff on chink EVs.
https://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-electric-car-get-ready-to-pay-250-percent-tariff-2025-4

>>63912333
>Except the fact that Europe has been left out with almost zero significance.
yet here you are seething about and shilling against Europe every day

>>63912365
>yet here you are seething about and shilling against Europe every day
I'm not though? The only ones who seethe here are krauts and beaners who have nowhere to go after FCAS goes defunct.

>>63912088
> Japan is more advanced in terms of pure technology and R&D,
Bruh that’s cap. Japan is just not the country it was in the 80s and although I don’t like modern German products, shit like Porsche still stomps on Nissan despite being 50% built out of the most brittle plastic with planned obsolescence in mind.

>>63912393
>Bruh that’s cap.
prove it

>>63912372
>krauts and beaners who have nowhere to go after FCAS goes defunct.
They'll simply joing the only 6th gen program in Europe that is actually being developed. The GCAP. And the only thing the Isamic Caliphate of Francostan can do is praise Alllha

>>63912372
then why are you here?

>>63912414
Probably shitposting

>>63912410
Not being a 60 year old weeaboomer. Japan hasn’t been innovative for decades eg lost decades of w/e it’s called.

>>63912393
>The best German manufacturer is better than the worst Japanese manufacturer
What sort of an argument is this?

>>63912696
>best German manufacturer
Nigga its just VAG lol
> worst Japanese manufacturer
What else do they have to offer than the R-34?

>>63912690
>no arguments
>no evidence
I understand.

>>63912712
>Nigga its just VAG lol
It's the marque within VAG for cars that aren't slow, boring shitboxes that fall apart after 5 miles, and the alternatives are BMW and Chrysler's discarded remnants. Don't get me wrong, I'm not shilling for Porsche, but they're far and away the least dogshit of the German manufacturers.
>What else do they have to offer than the R-34?
You mean what has Nissan had to offer since they ended production of the R34? Nothing.

>>63913099
So what’s the closest equivalent to Porsche and the 911 then?

>>63912413
>praise Alllha
they do that in Germany though

>>63913784
Are you seriously trying to compete in who has less mudslimes when you're french? In other countries kids hit each others when they spot a yellow car, in France they do so when they spot a white person.

>>63913835
I am not french and Pozzmany is as much of a cucked shithole as its western euro neighbors

>muh french can't into multinational project
Explain to me why the Neuron drones, Sepcat Jaguar, Alpha jet and so on, worked? Genuine question.

>>63913884
it's more the french can work with just about everyone but the germans and the german assume it's because the french can't work with anyone
because how could it be their fault? they filled in form AZ 25c in triplicate just as art. 24 bis third paragraph of the international co-operation law of 13/11/1964 requires

>>63913884
>Neuron drones
vaporwave
>Sepcat Jaguar
literal turd, obsolete before the first LRIP came out
>Alpha jet
a literal trainer

>>63913927
This, here has never been a German cooperation that worked

>>63895693
>Deflecting to the Russoids
It’s always fun to bully Slavs, I get it. But there’s no 6th Gen argument at the top. It’s literally just “whwn will the US debut theirs so we know what a 6th Gen actually even is”. The Chinks are like 20 years behind the West and lie through their teeth, so anything they say is as irrelevant as the shit that comes out of the mouth of Russia or Iran. And we can see how well the Euros compromise in this very thread. France will stomp off in a huff and produce another inferior domestic design that nobody wants and the Euros will either make a new program that shows up a decade and a half late, or they’ll buy American. It’s the way of the world.

>>63895706
That Wingman thing looks cool as fuck, but unmanned shit is cringe. Slap a cockpit in that bitch.

>>63891382 (OP)
>be letters agencies bro
>can never into armatard threads, even related to my fields of expertise
>plus war tourists are everywhere
Anyway back to Wumbologist and Burt posts about nerdy handgunism. Vive la France, allons enfants de la patrie.

>>63914174
>whwn will the US debut theirs so we know what a 6th Gen actually even is
not really, the us is in full decline due to brownification and low iq from microplastics. they will never move beyond CGI stage.

>>63916420
>he us is in full decline due to brownification and low iq from microplastics
bingo, they can't even make a trainer nowadays.

>>63916430
They should've just bought T-50A.

>>63916499
>gook trainer in development hell
>block 20 update never *this year for sure!*
>zero weapon integration when they promised "them all"
LMAO.

>>63916513
Do you realize that T-50A is a separate model from FA-50?

>>63916584
Yes, it's even worse than the FA-50.

>>63902849
>Brazil
lololol, sure just a let BRICS member join your highly classified 6th gen project, I'm sure no one will leak it to their economic partners.
I already know how story goes:
>FCAS breaks up over workshare issues
>France builds a middling carrier jet (again)
>Germany joins GCAP as a junior partner for CCA work
>Spain has no money and ends efforts to get a 6th gen
>Saudis join GCAP to get its own aerospace industry started in return for subsidising programme costs
>Norway buys GCAP in exchange for reduced costs for their Type 26 order
>Sweden buys into German CCA realising that SAAB lied about reusing old Gripen parts on the new E model
>Canada and Australia see-saw between GCAP and export variant of the F-47

>>63916650
BRICS won't last that long and it's in Brazil's best interest to expand their aerospace industry, nobody could pay those hypotetical secrets enough to make the betrayal worthwhile

>>63895573
wrong MTU.
Friedrichshafen is owned by Rolls-Royce and they make tank and ship engines, not MTU Aero Engines

>>63917822
They’re not even called MTU anymore lol. It’s British now just like the jet engine, jet fighter, maritime diesel engines, elliptical lift theory etc

>>63892945
>literal brown jet, crewed by browns, piloted by women
LMAO

>>63918376
they still use the MTU name for their products though, but yea they renamed the company to something Rolls-Royce

>>63917292
You just can't trust Brazil

.

>>63891412
>Why don't the French just shut the fuck up and make their own 6th generation fighter than?
They can.
But to exist you need more aircraft and for european country to stop selling themselves to US.
Had the Rafale replaced the Eurofighter and been produced in those number, I bet we would already have them in Ukraine.

>>63892945
It's 4.5gen at most and you know it

>>63893053
>>63893116
>>63893266
>muh anti-french meme
The real answer is >>63893829, the problem is that subcontractors can't grow at the same pace. It's already surprising they can produce that much for a country of this size. Maybe if France was in a war economy dedicated to fighters but that would ruin the country.

Hopefully the Indian factory will help.

>>63894255
>Chinese tech is superior
Chinese agent spotted, China may no longer be as bad as the meme they created imply, but their tech is still subpar and mostly posturing with edged design to look stealthy without mastering its principle and not degrading aerodynamic.
China would definitely win through quantity, but not quality. And I suspect their censorship hide a lot of incredible fuckups, like their submarine.

>>63895963
>Germany never make retarded choice
Germany didn't even believe their EF needed to be capable of attacking surfaces target. It took them forever to fix that once they eased their retarded post cold-war peace mindset.
The catobar-jet Rafale is superior to the Eurofighter in every metric, and it sells very well to countries who are not politically forced to continue with the EF.

Plenty of countries work with the French and can't get enough of French tech, including the US.
But long before Trump the US was/is in fact doing a lot of effort to sabotage any European competitor to their market. Almost have to thank Trump for being so retarded.
That's also why Germany has been selling itself to the US for decades, refusing to make their own Maritime Patrol Aircraft despite it being the best choice on a political and economical level.
And I'm sure you'd bring up the submarine deal, oh yeah, a secret betrayal instead of starting a bidding with France to negotiate a better deal. France would have given them nuclear submarines using civilian nuclear fuel if they just asked.

>>63924210
> refusing to make their own Maritime Patrol Aircraft despite it being the best choice on a political and economical level.
Problem is the P-8 Poseidon is available right now vs the MPA in ~2035.

>>63923995
Nooo no dont you see, China can't sensor what they don't want you to see! The J36 and J50 keep getting (((leaked)))!

>>63923995
>China would definitely win through quantity, but not quality
Quantity doesn't matter on the modern battlefield. The Chinese command structure would be far more disrupted in a war with the US than the Iranian command structure has been by Israel. Infinite conscript meatwaves don't matter with no one to tell them where to go and no one to bring them food.

>>63891382 (OP)
Why is European business culture all drama queens vying for the image of a prestige clout. I'd rather the American show of promises, lies and behind the curtain shady deals than publicly prancing a song and dance of false superiority pretenses, and in women's clothes no less.

No wonder you people hate Trump so much. You must see a reflection when looking at his prattling grandiosity with nothing real behind it.
Fucking french

>>63925527
It's the German's fault they kept pushing back the project. Probably lobbyist who wanted to have the project killed.
And by that logic you should give up developing your own military and only buy the equipment of that country who is absolutely not going to coerce you mafia-style the second they've cut you from alternatives (if you didn't betray them yourself).