Thread 63946213

We have all heard that "Conventional warfare between two superpowers is obsolete due to Nuclear Weapons", but what if that wasn't true. Say, 1962, Cuban missile crisis goes hot, a Soviet submarine decides to launch a nuclear torpedo after a prolonged bombardment by *practice* depth charges and grenades. While in reality, the submarine surfaces, this time the order to fire is carried out.

What would be the immediate response of the US Navy? Obviously an extended submarine hunting campaign would be carried out, but how common would, say, a nuclear depth charge be used? I have always seen it as a last ditch weapon, one to be used against a technologically superior foe that is otherwise out of the engagement envelope, but is that really official doctrine? Would the navy use nuclear depth charges freely and without discretion (both to ensure a kill on the sub and the safety of the hunting ships) against even otherwise easy prey for conventional submarine tactics?

Also, general unconventional nuclear weapon thread (nuclear landmines, depth charges, torpedoes, bunker busters, etc...)

>>63946213 (OP)
Another unconventional weapon is the MADM (Medium Atomic Demolition Munition), the bigger sister of the SADM, and weighed 400 pounds. It was meant to be used as both a rear and flank guard mine to ensure large enemy forces cant crush an otherwise under-protected offensive. It was also meant to destroy bridges, buildings, dams, etc, anything worth blowing up both quickly and well enough to prevent any realistic use at all. It would be very useful if an enemy is pushing friendlies across a bridge, a withdrawl could be ordered and instead of relying on thousands of individual charges placed by engineers, one or two MADMs could be placed and blown, potentially causing much more damage to the attacker than if the bridge was simply blown with C4.

The idea of defending flanks and rear areas with this damn thing is optimistic to say the least, as both the enemy and friendly units would likely be greatly affected by a blast of such magnitude, not to mention potential fallout.

>>63946213 (OP)
This unremarkable beauty holds a deep secret, can you guess? It isn't a penis, but instead a 100 ton tnt equivalent charge which is carried to a maximum range of 8.7 miles, I suppose army high command then expected GI's to march through the destruction and mushroom cloud and move forward, hoping the enemy cant rebound as quickly as otherwise hoped.

Both sides would be kinda fucked with the use of this weapon, as it creates a radioactively-enforced no-mans-land, preventing the land from being used by either side, at that point, both sides would need to advance both through the irradiated landscape and then potentially assault a dug in enemy, all presumably while in MOPP gear, in such a scenario the defender would be at the advantadge, the only real way this would be turned around would be through the use of IFVs, APCs and MBTs. Imagine gas attacks in WW1 but even more dread inducing, all the while not immediately killing anyone outside of the blast radius.

As a defensive weapon, I would consider it scorched earth, although it could turn the tide on some of the fiercest, most lopsided battles if employed correctly.

>>63946213 (OP)
This is a test of a nuclear-armed ASROC missile, no doubt overkill for diesel submarines, though more advanced nuclear submarines would be a prime target for such a system. How far out would a submarine have to be from the blast to survive? If it is really so effective, this is the answer to anti submarine countermeasures? Forgetting the potential environmental impact, this is more useful than even advanced torpedoes or aerial ASW. One whisper from an enemy submarine and an otherwise unremarkable destroyer can potentially fuck a variety of tasty targets, especially nuclear powered ones.

ASW aircraft with nuclear depth charges could allow a country without a potent navy to absolutely fuck up any enemy navy with prejudice, especially their submarine forces. With nuclear warhead armed AShMs even carrier groups could be under credible threat (If the enemy doesnt intercept the missile that is). If one was to use such a weapon, it would probably have an escort along with some 'bait' aircraft to give the nuke-armed aircraft a greater fighting chance.

>>63946213 (OP)
>>63946297
While nuclear depth charges threaten submarines, they aren't defenseless. With the louder nature of surface vessels an advanced enemy submarine could get the jump on searching ASW fleets, one nuclear torpedo could sink or otherwise render useless and entire squadron of enemy destroyers. Not to mention it could be delivered with relative secrecy until the weapon detonated (with swim-out propulsion, wire guidance, and other quieting features). Even with a louder torpedo, if the submarine could fire it from far enough out, they could easily stay out of detection range. This would, however, bring a bigger issue, if the torpedo misses, then what?

I suppose a whatever attitude in a war gone hot wouldn't be out of the question, but a nuclear weapon simply being wasted is a very unattractive idea. These torpedoes would also work pretty well on dock facilities, as a close (or direct) explosion against a dock facility could render it inoperable without revealing ones position via a missile launch.

I have nothing to contribute but I wanna say this is a cool thread so far.

Nukes, nukes, nukes. Can't anyone just step up and weaponize Antimatter?

>>63946372
Thanks, I know its late but its nice to have a bump.
>>63946213 (OP)
The Air-2 Genie is an otherwise fairly well known weapon, but its purpose was critical in the early cold war. In an age without advanced SA missiles interceptors were the only way to really make sure the enemies bombers dont get to their targets. A 1.5kt warhead may seem like overkill, especially compared to warheads such as the W48, but its size allows for the deletion of entire wings of bomber aircraft. Either that or fry all their electronics and practically render them senseless and hopeless. With little hope of reaching their targets.

Hope you packed sunglasses!

>>63946229
The MADM was kind of a dial-a-yield device, with the low end being similar to the 2020 Beirut explosion in kilotons. Remember that troops were placed just several hundred yards away from nuke tests in Nevada and without any loss of combat capability. The scientists at the Castle Bravo test were only a few miles from a 15 megaton blast in a sand covered bunker and only had fallout to deal with - which, if they had a week of provisions - would have allowed them to wait out the fallout long enough to drive out if they had been on more land than an atoll. In the often hillier and sometimes mountainous regions of Europe, the effects of a small, groundburst nuclear weapon could be somewhat contained to a large valley or basin just as the topography of Nagasaki reduced the effects of a larger air burst device. The MADM was a great capability to have if for some reason air or artillery nukes couldn't be employed. A two-man team could literally destroy an entire enemy army in their rear areas, or obliterate a blitzkrieg - and still conceivably make it out safe.

>>63946318
>Original use case of nuclear depth bombs
Buckets of sunshine were there to deliver an area effect against an uncertain position of a known hostile submarine, or one operating at a depth/speed where conventional torpedoes couldn't reliably get to. I.e., an Alfa at speed and depth -you know its there, you know its course roughly, but the uncertainty area on it is too vague for a deliberate torpedo attack, and the depth and speed are prohibitive for a torpedo attack.

Yr second point - (western) submarines always attack (surface vessels) from outside detection range - and the torpedoes are wire guided, so you can provide corrections to the solution and adjust the weapon mid-travel. Likewise, if it misses, you can order it to reattack or re-adopt a search mode to try and find the (missed) target again.

>>63946394
>Antimatter
Gotta figure out how to contain it before you can weaponize it. Much less get enough of it to make a weapon. Antimatter would be more useful in tons of applications over simply using it as a explosive.

>>63946414
>Remember that troops were placed just several hundred yards away from nuke tests in Nevada and without any loss of combat capability
Not immediately anyways, and combat would likely necessitate prolonged exposure to freshly irradiated aerosol and particles. It would be a post-war nightmare to sort out for any country that gives a damn.

Otherwise, I agree, the MADM was the greater conventional equivalent to the SADM, though the SADM would likely be a specialist sabotage weapon, for blowing shit up behind enemy lines. The MADM would be a critical part in a losing scenario against the Soviets in a cold war gone hot, as it would give breathing room to units who would otherwise be quickly routed through sheer numbers. Nuclear artillery would shine in such a role too. Giving precious time and distance for vulnerable retreating units.

Not to mention one MADM would be harder to find than a minefield, and one MADM could potentially sterilize a multi-mile radius, for better or worse.

>>63946414
Also, the MADM had a timer of up to 21 days. Troops in Nevada endured a 15kt blast in the open only a few miles from the blast. A legless man would literally have time to crawl out of the danger zone of a MADM on a timer if he only crawled a few hundred yards a day.

>>63946433
>Antimatter would be more useful in tons of applications over simply using it as a explosive.
A certain substance's inherent value/usefulness is mostly irrelevant. Mikhail Lomonosov once remarked that petroleum and its fractional distillates are far too valuable to burn.

>>63946418
>the torpedoes are wire guided
I agree, wire guidance really makes it all a breeze, though it could limit maximum engagement ranges due to the solid state requirement (unless you trust it to search by itself, kek). Wire guidance, while a beautiful part of submarine warfare, is limited, as the host submarine cant make extensive movements, lest it breaks the wire.

How hard is it to break a torpedo wire? They cant be much much stronger than a fibre-optic cable, and I doubt they have any substantial insulation. Such a weapon could very well be stopped if the torpedo is detected and fired upon, as the line will be in the same place as the torpedo even if said torpedo is beyond the blast radius of the weapon which cuts the cable.

At that point, if the torpedo cant be steered away, its either run and split up or let god decide your fate. Towed decoys are one of many solutions at that point (if the reel is long enough to go out 2-3 miles).

>>63946450
>Mikhail Lomonosov once remarked that petroleum and its fractional distillates are far too valuable to burn.

I wonder why, without any way to drill for oil, the only sources of petroleum would very well be too valuable to burn. Once oil drilling took off that dudes words were worthless, as oil was abundant. This is without even mentioning refining coal and things into fuels.

Antimatter would be rare, initially anyways. This is without mentioning the much greater demand and willingness of parties to fight to have said antimatter. Regardless, It would likely be limited by a certain yield per quarter before greater extraction techniques are devised. I dont even know if Antimatter has ever been contained with modern science, though I do feel it is possible using magnetics or some similar phenomenon.

>>63946466
>>63946450
>>63946394

I would much rather use the antimatter as a way to produce more conventional weapons (or better ones) using the antimatter as a power source.

Presumably antimatter would have much more energy potential than even nuclear power, and it may even be stored and moved in a ready-to-use state unlike (most) nuclear power sources. With enough energy, you could make more weapons, better weapons, or probably both. Not to mention it would be useful for funding further research into harvesting antimatter, wasting it as a weapon would be stupid.

That is unless there is a practically massive supply of antimatter (similar to nuclear weapons, or the materials to make them).

>>63946213 (OP)
Fuckin SLAM (Supersonic Low Altitude Missile), one of the coolest canceled projects of the cold war. Not only was this a nuclear powered cruise missile, but it also had multiple warheads on standby, ready to dispense over any pre-programmed target.

If the enemy couldn't shoot this fucker down soon enough, it could rain hell on many cities long after conventional bombers have either landed or been shot down. The thing that killed the SLAM was ICBM's, their destruction was much more prompt, accurate, and assured.

A standoff weapon meant to prevent the enemy from retaliating against a potentially crippled USA would be great even today, but if our enemies had the same capability it would be a potentially hellish scenario, with few 'qualified' survivors (as in ones who could rebuild the government EFFECTIVELY).

>>63946213 (OP)
>>63946297
>>63946318
For me it's the SUBROC when it comes to Naval non-strategic nukes. What's better than a nuclear-armed ASROC? A submarine launched nuclear-armed ASROC for 60s USN SSNs to have just in case there's a Soviet boomer out of Mk 37 range.

>>63946597
Truly the greatest member of any American nuke subs arsenal, it is a shame nothing really came of the system, it had potential and was a great asset for any submarine.

Soviets had the system beat, and they would've needed it. Their submarines were loud as fucking shit and needed all the standoff they could get. Wouldn't be surprised if most 1st line submarines had 1-2 of these babies, they made them with homing torpedoes aswell, so if nukes were inappropriate they had another option.

>>63946394
>he doesn't know

I love nuclear weapons, shame the Cold War ended, I imagine they can become way smaller and more advanced yet.

>>63946667
>needed all the standoff they could get.
Probably part of what drove development of the Shkval
>>63948246
Fairly sure I read somewhere the "new" B61 Mod 12 can have a JDAM kit fitted

>>63948246
>smaller
not really without significant effort into different fissionable isotopes

>>63949033
>B61 Mod 12 can have a JDAM kit

>>63946731
do it, summon zapperanon

>>63949167
>Dugway Zapper
lol...lmfao!

>>63948246
>shame the Cold War ended
Anon, I...

>>63946414
>Remember that troops were placed just several hundred yards away from nuke tests in Nevada
The fuck are you talking about, kid? Try 6km to 11km from ground zero (that's 3.5 to 7 miles in retard units).

>The scientists at the Castle Bravo test were only a few miles from a 15 megaton blast in a sand covered bunker and only had fallout to deal with - which, if they had a week of provisions - would have allowed them to wait out the fallout
Wrong again. The 8 scientists were holed up in a bunker 20 miles from the blast. The blast generated a tsunami of unknown height which washed over their bunker and several inside recalled thinking they had been washed into the ocean.

>and only had fallout to deal with
You minimize the actual event. Huge radiation levels outside was starting to leak inside. It was several hours before outside radiation levels dropped just enough for them to don makeshift suits made from bedsheets, and make a run for a helicopter which sped them out of the area. They still got a sizable dose.

>>63946452
Most wire guided torpedoes can operate fully independently of the control platform -They're loaded with an the relevant fire control solution information before they're discharged, so in the event of a wire break, they can continue to the search region and commence passive/active search and then they'll prosecute anything inside that target error region that matches the target criteria loaded into the weapon before discharge.

>>63946466
penning traps
the current published state of the art is maybe 1000 atoms for 1000 seconds
https://home.cern/news/press-release/cern/cern-experiment-traps-antimatter-atoms-1000-seconds

blessed thread

>>63946452
>nixie
huh. I thought they would be much bigger

>>63946452
Shkval solves this by being super fast

>>63949033
>>63949115
Did a bit of digging, I got it wrong. The old tail section was replaced with a similar tail assembly (only an INS though, no GPS receiver) as part of the Mod 12 upgrade.

>>63953208
Lame, whatever though, Im surprised a modification wasn't done much earlier.

>>63946213 (OP)
In the world of intercepting ballistic missiles, the Sprint missile was one of the most fascinating ideas. It accelerated to Mach 10 in 5 seconds (undergoing nearly 100 g's) and was meant to intercept a reentry body after it has already breached thinner parts of the atmosphere. The hope was that in the small amount of time before the warhead can hit the target, the Sprint would be able to close the distance and render the weapon ineffective. The thing that killed the project was MIRV armed ballistic missiles, though one could also make a case about political meddling causing the cancellation of the overarching program (even then, the weapons utility was still questionable and exorbitantly expensive), a final nail was also the growing number of ICBM's fielded by the USSR, making the task of preventing large scale nuclear attacks nearly impossible (with ground based systems, anyhow).

>>63953461
Ah Sprint. Good enough guidance that it didn't need a nuclear warhead in the end.
>though one could also make a case about political meddling causing the cancellation of the overarching program
The ABM treaty may have been a factor with the constraints around number of deployed sites.
>a final nail was also the growing number of ICBM's fielded by the USSR, making the task of preventing large scale nuclear attacks nearly impossible
Though the amount needed to hit every Minuteman and Titan silo would've have probably pulled a few warheads away from the cities in any Soviet Counterforce First Strike scenario

>>63946213 (OP)
Nuke subs count too, along with any transportation systems powered by nuclear power.

One of my favorite nuke submarines is the USS Narwhal, it used a natural circulation pressurized water reactor. The reactor lacked any of the conventionally employed pump systems which were oftentimes used previously and are still used today. The greatest feature afforded with the NC-SPWR was its quiet operation, while pump technology has improved to the point where such a consideration is often moot, at the time this submarine was more than likely the quietest nuke at the time.

There were many different, additional modifications done to the vessel, such as modifications to the engineering and propulsion compartment, including (but not limited to) a direct drive turbine, which rotated at a relatively low 300 rpm, quieter, low rpm turbine generators for ship power, and a seawater scoop which would allow seawater pumps (draws in additional water for the reactor) to be shut off at speed.

While somewhat slower than its sisters of the Sturgeon-class, they were mostly similar ahead of the reactor and engineering spaces. However, despite their similarities the Narwhal was considered the sole example of the Narwhal class. Served a long, active, honored, and still top secret service. She retired in 1999 but only finished being dismantled in 2020.

>>63946213 (OP)
Nuke subs count too, along with any transportation systems powered by nuclear power.

One of my favorite nuke submarines is the USS Narwhal, it used a natural circulation pressurized water reactor. The reactor lacked any of the conventionally employed pump systems which were used previously and are still used today. The greatest feature afforded with the NC-SPWR was its quiet operation, while pump technology has improved to the point where such a consideration is often moot, at the time this submarine was more than likely the quietest nuke of its day.

There were many different, additional modifications done to the vessel, such as modifications to the engineering and propulsion compartment, including (but not limited to) a direct drive turbine, which rotated at a relatively low 300 rpm, quieter, low rpm turbine generators for ship power, and a seawater scoop which would allow seawater pumps (draws in additional water for the reactor) to be shut off at speed.

While somewhat slower than its sisters of the Sturgeon-class, they were mostly similar ahead of the reactor and engineering spaces. However, despite their similarities the Narwhal was considered the sole example of the Narwhal class. Served a long, active, honored, and still top secret service, and likely saw covert use as a spy submarine. She retired in 1999 but only finished being dismantled in 2020.

An attempt was made to save her for future use as a submarine museum, but failed to raise the 2M needed.

>>63946433
Gotta figure out where to find enough of it to weaponize first.

>>63953208
There was the Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator or (RNEP) for short.

>>63946213 (OP)
The Honest John missile system was one of the first tactical nuclear missiles in US military service. Unguided, it was a relatively imprecise weapon, but with a nuclear payload it could undoubtedly eliminate mass concentrations of enemy forces. It served for nearly 40 years, and was replaced with the Lance tactical nuclear missile in the early 70's.

It was capable of mounting a convention warhead of 1500 pounds, a variable yield 20kt nuclear warhead, or sarin gas. The missile itself had a maximum range of 15 miles, and as stated before, was unguided. Quite hairy for ground forces, but thats expected for the early cold war.

>>63955625
>convention
fucking typo, meant conventional.

>>63946213 (OP)
The MGM-52 Lance had a much larger range of up to 75 miles, and could mount larger payloads, along with delivering them with much increased accuracy. It relegated a majority of army mobile tactical missile systems being transferred to the national guard.