Thread 63966072

If the ammo weren't caseless it would unironically be a great service rifle irl

Is there any hope for caseless ammo becoming commonplace within 20 years (or ever)?

>caseless ammo
>still has a cartridge-sized ejection port

>>63966120
No, because it's a bad idea. Cased telescopic, on the other hand, is great and I hope we start seeing some adoption in the near future.

>>63966126
where do you think the ammo is coming out of

>>63966126
So you can eject unfired rounds.

>>63966126
Iirc it was for cooling
>>63966120
Hope, yeah, but with the current small arms trends not gonna happen. Future firearms will likely have nas3 or similar casings for high psi loads (ex ap ammo) and cooling

>>63966120
No. Any advantages it has are way outweighed by the disadvantages. It’s a dead technology.

>>63966128
Obligatory.
>>63966144
I believe caseless and CT inherently lend themselves to higher max pressures, as caseless only has to deal with obturation and CT ammo directly transfers the expansion to the chamber/breech through the case's whole body. Textron claimed 100ksi was possible IIRC.

>>63966156
>Textron claimed 100ksi was possible IIRC.
with CT

>>63966156
I see CT being far more likely going forward. Im not claiming to be an expert. I think the largest disadvantage to caseless is cooling.

>>63966156
So far as I'm aware, people's biggest complaint about this was the ejection port right? Because it ejects where you'd want to put your fingers naturally etc etc.
So why the fuck couldn't this work as a bullpup configuration? Ejection port above/slightly behind your hand, the foregrip is completely free to hold and dick around with, more barrel length etc. You might have to fuck around with the length of travel and getting a nice trigger etc but you get the idea.

>>63966136
The barrel. Caseless means there is no case to eject.

>>63966141
Yeah alright. Makes sense.

>>63966144
NAS3+high pressure is tantamount to drastically reducing case mass.
>1) cause nas3 is lighter than brass case (2g/5.56 case)
>2) X amount of energy now requires a smaller and lighter case due to increased pressure.

The current 5.56 case weighs about 90gr iirc, and the NAS3 version weighs 60gr. I bet you could get it under 50gr with a slightly smaller case running higher pressures, retaining the same ballistic performance as 5.56. And you could use lighter but sleeker bullets (same BC) to lighten the cartridge even more.

>>63966250
>And you could use lighter but sleeker bullets (same BC)
Not with 5.56, there's no room. I guess you could use a short ogive and a super long boat tail but then you've got compromised ballistics *and* case capacity.

>>63966166
>I think the largest disadvantage to caseless is cooling.
The largest disadvantage to caseless is logistics. The case does a lot to protect the propellant, with caseless ammo you need those rigid, hermetically sealed "stripper clips" like the G11 had, and once you open one the rounds are subject to being physically chipped and damaged, and need to be fired within a week or two before they absorb enough humidity to become unreliable.

>>63966335
Provided you cut the case down making provisions for a longer ogive. Wouldn’t even intrude on case volume cause you don’t really have to make the bullet any longer than m855a1. Just shorten the excessively long bearing surface and allocate that length to the ogive and boat tail.

>>63966178
It's a great idea. You'd also be able to shoot from the left shoulder, which is considered an important thing to have nowadays.
Textron did actually file a patent for a downward-ejection bullpup CT mechanism. I think this was developed alongside the early LSAT carbine circa 2010.
This report and others on ARES have a lot of info about CT, CL, LSAT, and beyond
https://www.armamentresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/ARES-Research-Report-No.-7-Cased-Telescoped-Ammunition.pdf
>So far as I'm aware, people's biggest complaint about this was the ejection port right? Because it ejects where you'd want to put your fingers naturally etc etc.
People seem to make up a lot of issues about the gun. The ejection port location is a little retarded, but it's not that bad a quirk for a gun to have. If one's fingers are too fat to hold it from from the ejection port protrusion, they can always C-clamp or magwell grip, maybe even install a VFG. The ejection port was field-adjustable, too. You can change the ejection direction from right to left in less than a minute.
I've seen barrel throat erosion, Steyr patent violations by Textron, inaccuracy, grunt disapproval, the 'complicated mechanism' all cited as reasons for why Textron's submission was quickly pulled with zero explanation. There was even a guy on this board who insisted on calling its ammo 'pseudotelescoped'. I'm rather upset that we'll probably never actually know why it was axed.

>>63966156
What if the chamber jettisoned every time the user swapped a mag? Every mag came with a new chamber and the old one popped out like a stripper clip with a really hot tube attached to it

>>63966156
How do you clear a malfunction??

>>63966368
>it got dropped because they can't seal the sliding chamber!
>it got dropped because the jump.made the accuracy terrible!
>it got dropped because the zillion springs it uses and the sliding chamber was way too prone to jamming!
>it got dropped because people couldn't stop from blocking the ejection port and it jammed every use!
Source: my dad works at textron

>>63966072 (OP)
I used the SW version with bipod and nightstalker scope on PVE server to nail infantry

>>63966368
Yeah, honestly I really, really liked the idea of the Textron offering, for once it was doing something a little different and probably could have heralded something great. The only long term issue I could see would be the clearance issue between firing chamber and barrel (much like revolvers) but given some pretty tight tolerances and the limited travel of the breach assembly it shouldn't be that big of a deal and it'd make barrel change stupid easy. Throat erosion.... maybe? Inaccuracy might be a variety of things but a longer barrel would probably help. Grunts are retards, the only time you should listen to them is when you're talking about ergonomics and how easy it is to use, you'll want it to be as comfortable as possible. But you also have to fight back against 'new thing bad'. This isn't to say that you can't look at new thing and go 'new thing could be improved' which is exactly what should happen to the Textron offering.

>>63966381
Genius.
>>63966382
You should watch this video from Tactical Rifleman. https://youtu.be/pYqEJsMLg_g
Like 60% of the information the public has about this gun is from this one video.
You just cycle. If that doesn't work, take out the magazine and pull a clearing rod lever. Most timing-related and feeding malfunctions just don't happen with this action, though. There's just so little to go wrong.

>>63966382
They had a ramrod ejector thing that you would run via a handle on the other side.

>>63966438
kek
>>63966440
I seriously doubt that soldiers actually disliked the Textron guns. The 'reasons cited' were just rumors I read on the internet.

>>63966148
Caseless should work just fine in low volume of fire weapons, like pistols, shotguns and sniper rifles.

>>63966368
I know for a fact it was barrel throat erosion, caused by the bullet jump and high pressure.

>>63966381
Every ten or thirty rounds a sleeved round that would knock the old chamber sleeve through an ejection port. They can be collected and reused when cool.

>>63968208
With all due respect, Anonymous, you don't. You just use induced this from 'common sense', drawing conclusions from your layman understanding of materials science if the program didn't have a dozen or more PhDs working on it full-time. Every other rumor maker tried to do the same thing. Now we have a million different shitty rumors floating around. >>63966438

>>63966072 (OP)
>hot casing shoots out into your wrist
>or gets covered by your hand causing malfunctions

Yeah this was shit, and there were casings they came out of the second ejection port and it had a second charging handle just to clear that port. Wacko design.

>>63966072 (OP)
It's the best rifle in-game by far. It just feels so good to use.

>>63968300
Nice shameless appeal to authority you made there.

My fact is based on that deleted video from the Lonestar suppressor manufacturer and from the pentagon press briefing on the adoption of the new weapons. You can still watch the briefing and see the part where the guy says Textron exited the contest because they failed reliability testing.

>>63968364
The basic MX kicks like a mule. You need to switch to the MXM. It has much better recoil and you get a nice extra 120m/s velocity at the muzzle.

>>63966126
All caseless designs do that

>>63968520
He didn't say what you think you heard. He just said they didn't achieve the 'success criteria', which is vague corpo babble that could mean anything.
Besides, barrel throat erosion is a longevity/barrel life concern and not a reliability problem.

>>63966368
GD and Textron both dropped out silently at the same time. From what I've read it's because contractors are pushing harder and harder to get the government to effectively lease their systems, which makes sense for ships and jet engines where only the manufacturer has the tools and facilities needed to work on them, but it's so lucrative that they're trying to get those sorts of contracts for everything, even simple stuff like trucks and portable generators and now rifles. Sig was the only of the three contestants that would actually sell their rifles without a bullshit service contract that would cost 10x more over the lifespan of the weapon, so the Army told GD and Textron they weren't interested. A couple weeks later, True Velocity was able to buy out GD's share of their partnership and offer the Army similar terms to Sig, so they went ahead with the competition.

>>63969325
However plausible, we still have no evidence for a John Deere situation besides rumor. That's the frustrating part, anon. It's not even hearsay.

>>63966120
Probably, but not likely for small arms.

>>63970150
The fact that GD and Textron dropped out at the same time is circumstantial, but circumstantial evidence is more than no evidence, which is what the claims of mechanical problems are based on.

>>63966438
Most of the bullshit spread about the program on /k/ came directly from this thread full of larpers and miscellaneous euro faggots:
https://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/7519/1

>>63970790
Agreed. It's very plausible and matches industry trends, but it's still a rather specific scenario to assume has happened without concrete evidence. Aliens could have been involved for all we know.

>>63966072 (OP)
>not using an 11.5 PSA AR
Kys zoomer

>>63966072 (OP)
caseless ammo has always been a contract gimmick to launder DOD money.

It will never be a legit thing cause the entire idea sucks in dirty environments.

>>63966072 (OP)
katiba is a much better design for CQB

CQB is literally impossible in Arma 3, as it is in real life. The game might as well have tank controls for infantry.

>>63968248
hear me out, I know it's weird but...
how about a thin chamber liner for each round? they could be made of something like brass or steel

>>63972269
It's actually pretty easy if you use grenades.

>>63972269
You shouldn't be reliant on bunnyhopping to clear a room.

>>63971999
The katiba is literally a real gun and it doesn't make sense in-game. It has a 20 round mag for 5.56mm and yet it had 30 rounds of 6.5mm in-game. It's also an iranian design.

>>63972269
It is, but you gotta take it slow and use your brain. (at least when you're using LAMBS AI)
But it's wartime CQB rules more often than not, aka pic rel.

If there's anything my thousands of hours wargaming small-unit scenarios with an apocalyptic modlist in Arma has taught me, it's that grenades are the number one tool in an infantryman's inventory for close-in work.

>>63972269
meant to tag >>63971999

>>63972494
Yes, RGOs FTW
>>63972500
Bunnyhop on this 'nade

>>63966072 (OP)
Here's a list of things this design got wrong.

>Quad rails instead of MLOK.
>Iron sights aren't located at the very front and rear of the weapon
>Has an angled foregrip even though that's retarded
>Can use folding stocks, but only puts them on the SAW variant
>Can use casket mags, but only uses them on the SAW variant
>Has stupidly high recoil for a 6.5x39mm round. The game has AKs with less recoil.

>>63972507
What even is an RGO? LMAO.

>>63968526
best part is it'll still take the 100 round mags which are more weight efficient

>>63972578
Another great thing about the MXM is that it mounts all scopes a little further forwards, so they don't obstruct your view as much. Try putting the DMS scope on the MX, then the MXM. It's like you can see 30% more stuff on the screen.

>>63972516
>Casket mags
Every MX gun takes the casket mags anon. Folding stocks are also of less use them a collapsible/adjustable stock see what's happening to the AK

>>63972516
M-lok literally didn't exist in 2013. AFGs are the best grips. Broomhandles are pointless because people just end up treating them as an AFG or handstop anyway.

>>63973042
Broomhandles are actually quite nice if you can brace them over a tree branch. Your rifle will not recoil. Very nice for rapid shooting.

>>63966072 (OP)
why is there an ejection port of it is caseless

>>63973305
How do you clear the weapon when you're done shooting?
How do you clear a jam?

>>63972501
>It's also an iranian design.
Yeah, who do you think the Farsi-speaking enemies are?

>>63968520
Appeal to authority is a fallacy in which the opinion of a person with authority is deferred to when their authority is unrelated to the subject. Like saying president trump's favorite handgun is a 92fs so therefore it must be the best. It does not apply to situations where one defers to subject matter experts on matters of their field because, well, that's just common sense

>>63973042
>Broomhandles are pointless because people just end up treating them as an AFG or handstop anyway.
>can use VFG like a VFG, an AFG, or a hand stop
>somehow a bad thing
Are you retarded?

>>63971418
>100% sealed receivers suck in dirty environments
Most retarded take itt

>>63972475
Better yet, polymer

>>63973062
If you're on a tree, you don't need a branch to brace against anyway. Vertical barrier brace works just as well

>>63974181
It's the ammo, not the gun. The ammunition has to be shipped in hermetically sealed magazines or it will get wet or crumble or whatever the fuck.

>>63966156
Wtf is this nightmare fuel?

>>63977417
The future.

>>63974181
>100% sealed receivers
enjoy your randomly backfiring gun.

>>63979310
That's fucking wild.

>>63979310
Geez no wonder it never went anywhere.