was it actually that bad

>>63977754 (OP)
3x Mussolinis

>>63977754 (OP)
Didn't they almost get their coglioni kicked in during the Ethiopian campaign?

>>63977773
dux mea lux

>>63977754 (OP)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hill_731
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Μάχη_στο_Ύψωμα_731
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battaglia_di_Cima_731

they were crushed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPm8hJ53kt8 documentary on Hill 731
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqImOW31vbE documentary on Hill 731
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPWQnvEukzY brief documentary Hill 731

>>63977844
God is a greek (grim)

>>63977754 (OP)
The Battle of Hill 731 has been described as the Verdun of the Greco-Italian War, whereas others referred to it as the new Thermopylae. It was a bloody struggle, with soldiers often engaging in close quarters combat and fighting with whatever they had at hand. The ferocious ground and air bombardment transformed the hill's landscape, eliminating all trees and reducing its height by 2 meters: its present day altitude is 729 meters.

>>63977754 (OP)
The Italian attack, observed by Italian dictator Benito Mussolini in person...Mussolini was forced to admit that the result of the Italian offensive was zero...

>>63977754 (OP)
>was it actually that bad
They went up against Greeks, their in effect brothers if not the same "person" as south italy is hellenic (and not only) and just failed. It was moronic.

>>63977754 (OP)
we_weren't_ready.jpg

>>63977754 (OP)
Mussolini was a donkey. He had used Greeks of southern Italy, i mean those that even had the language and knowledge they were Greeks, to launch assaults so they would get killed. They were hurled into he fray first.

Those grecani surrendered to Greeks first as they even spoke magna grecian greek and greeks understood them.

This made greeks even angrier as this clown was just a truly lame person using greeks out of greece as meat shields.

>>63977754 (OP)
Greek riflemen charged at the oncoming Italians with fixed bayonets, under the cover of dense smoke. Dimitrios Kaslas, after the bombardment gave an order for every soldier to stand his ground no matter what, and promised to personally shoot and kill anyone trying to retreat.

The Italians were confused as dead mean rose from the clouds of dust and mist and charged at them with bayonets.

Even dying Greeks that could move only their hand attacked them with anyway they could.

The Italians freaked out utterly.

>>63977754 (OP)
They would have fared well if they did not attack the Greeks.

>>63977754 (OP)
>was it actually that bad
The French had put up a sign in their border with italy "GREEKS THIS IS FRENCH TERRITORY, DO NOT ADVANCE FURTHER" or something like that and another country put up something similar.

>>63977776
This is and has always been fake

>>63977903
anywhere I can read up on this?

>>63978144
this from a documentary where old veterans from Italy spoke, including grecani. I don't know the specific bibliography but it must be recorded.

>>63978144
In his greek nationalist fantasies I assume. Like, the Italian invasion of greek was enough of a shitshow as it was, whithout the outright parodistic depictions that are often made of it...

Yes although it was bigger than just the soldiers. Some like the Bersaglieri were good units with high morale but their equipment and logistics were terrible.

If you are facing Matilda IIs (my beloved) or M3 Grants in adorable tankettes and your infantry is barely mechanized it doesn't matter if you are the biggest badass to ever eat spaghetti.

>>63978254
>In his greek nationalist fantasies I assume.
you are a retard

>>63978254
those things were official policies of Mussolini

>>63978254
>In his greek nationalist fantasies I assume.
These policies are known to all greeks of southern italy and are a fact. Go post about evil russia/good nato bullshit.

>>63978144
you can contact organizations in southern italy such as "Museo Alessandro Roccavilla" (this is a museum) and others related to greeks in south italy during mussolini's rule.

This is not apocryphal knowledge, mystical, conspiracy theory or things like albanian/slav/bulgarian/eskimo alexander the great and things of the sort. Its facts.

>>63978254
>In his greek nationalist fantasies I assume.

and you can drop dead.

>>63978254
>whithout the outright parodistic depictions that are often made of it...
Mussolini himself was a jackass and admitted that the result was zero. He was crushed by the weight of his own and of his army's incompetence.

The parody was Mussolini himself and the Italian army itself.

Why are like 95% of posts itt by the same Greek anon?

>>63978398
>Why are like 95% of posts itt by the same Greek anon?
because the performance of the italian army during ww2 was very bad and the subject is boring and uninteresting. I was bored so i posted what i had in hand, am doing some work at the same time.

>>63978144
>anywhere I can read up on this?
i think there is someone talking at a point in this one, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHi8dFgg4gY but you need proper bibliography in history books with interviews of grecano veterans of ww2.


first time i had seen this in a very old documentary at a point of it and read things here and there.

yes, all the excuses are cope

>>63978549
this would've been more useful if I spoke greek, but thanks for posting.

>>63977773
>3x Mussolini (in disguise)

>>63977777

>>63977754 (OP)
when they got their ass handed to them, by a military that's using tactics and equipment that was old before the 1st world war, and they have to call in their ally (Nazi Germany) to aid them in the conquest of this "easy victory," then yeah, the Italian army sucked.

Greeks were absolutely correct to insist that they would only surrender to a German. The Greeks could have conquered Italy with how bad the Italians fought.

>>63977885
The spanish are closer to the italians than the greeks are

>>63979080
>The Greeks could have conquered Italy with how bad the Italians fought.

Imagine the fucking KINO of a Greek invasion of Italy during WWII

>>63977754 (OP)
From what I understand, their military apparatus was built to deal with petty states in the Middle East and Africa, not actual Armies. something Mussolini's own generals told him, they shouldn't have gotten involved in the War in the first place, they should have just continued their Roman LARPing in the Middle East and marginally improved conditions for the people there.

>>63977787
did they? they conquered ethiopia in less than a year. you're probably referring to the abyssinian war of 1899.

>>63977754 (OP)
Yes and no.

The navy was a much bigger threat to the allies than any Italian ground forces. Luckily for the allies the Italian navy was very cautious to engage and avoided battles they were winning and could have won. They could have kept the Brit’s out of the med if they sunk a few battleships and caused outrage with the public in London.

They had a large military but none of the sophisticated industry to supply them with more than a uniform and a rifle. They had no mechanization comparable to the allies or Germany and didn’t field as many automatic weapons.

Where the Italians shined was in mountain warfare. But not too much of that happened, and this wasn’t WW1. they could just get bombed out of positions.

Didn’t help that the most competent Italian force the Alpini got eradicated in Russia thanks to the Germans brilliantly using elite light mountain troops on the steppes of Russia against armored forces.

The will to fight wasn’t all there either. They weren’t as motivated to create this new rome as the leader was. The Italians surrendering after token resistance memes are true to an extent.

They just wanted to go home and eat pasta and sit under olive trees.

>>63978981
Heh, those are Lucky Strikes.

>>63979513
>thanks to the Germans brilliantly using elite light mountain troops on the steppes of Russia against armored forces.
The krautniggers jebaited a lot of their minor allies into getting onboard Dulfi's Wild Ride across Vatnikistan.

>>63979513
>They just wanted to go home and eat pasta and sit under olive trees.

Almost all of the 157,000 Italian POWs in Britain were housed in low security camps for cooperative prisoners that were considered not ideologically committed. When El Duce was booted in 1943 around 100,000 of them joined the Italian Labour Brigades, wore allied uniforms with Italian flags and fully cooperated with the allied war effort for even cushier conditions, freer movement and pay.

Less than 25% of German POWs were cooperative prior to VE day and they had to set up several high security camps for hardcore nazis where suggesting in 1945 that Germany might lose the war would get you killed by your fellow prisoners.

>>63979415
>their military apparatus was built to deal with petty states in the Middle East and Africa,
Ie peer to peer conflicts

Italians have always been shit at war. Italians lost every single Unification war battle and had their allies win the wars for them. They managed to lose to Austrians on sea. They managed to lose to Africans. They even lost against a bunch of barely armed Papal loyalists defending the Vatican. Italians are just horrible soldiers.

>>63979808
No shit, Italy barely exist as a unified entity today. There still is a massive cultural and economic divide between regions, hell between provinces even, I can't imagine a hundred years ago how much worse it was.

Considering how fascism was a totalitarianism that gained political power through violence, which implies a majority of the population being forced into that state of affair by coercion, and how it was industrialists that propped up Mussolini hence where the actual will behind those politics lied, like every time a populist strong man goes or tries to go to power, you can imagine how little people cared about and believed in the whole war thing.

>>63979858
Name a single state that isn't organized through the threat of state violence.

>>63979921
Poland?

>>63979921
Allegedly, democratic ones, where a social contract is beneficial to both parties and law enforcement exist to secure what ultimately is the will of the people; of course there are forces, usually the same that like to bring fascism back for their own personal financial gain, that erode said social contract from within, but that's beside the point.

Fascists imposed their political will by literally terrorizing the population, beating people with different political ideas, and killing prominent political opponents, like Matteotti, the one that was just about to expose Mussolini for his corruption. Democratic countries have safeguards to protect their citizens and their rights even when the State uses violence, fascist countries just disappear people that don't step in line. There's a sea of difference between the two. And that's enough political discourse on /k/ for today.

The bottom line is that to be an imperium you gotta have a united and population sharing the same imperial goal with an efficient power structure and a solid MIC: historically Italy was never united enough to tow a single line, and when fascism happened, being built on clientelism, it couldn't have neither an efficient power structure nor a solid MIC.

>>63977773
Mussolini listing his greatest soldiers "Me, myself, and I"

>>63979808
Nice pasta

Mostly

Italy’s biggest challenge was a lack of industry compared to the other major belligerents. While parts of Italy (mostly in the north) had relevant industry most of the country was agrarian and poor, even by the standards of the time.

Their army lacked artillery—many divisions had lower caliber guns in lower numbers, which gave German/fremch/american/etc opponents a massive tactical advantage. Their domestic artillery production was so limited that most of the artillery they had wasn’t even Italian—it was Austrian- Hungarian they had been given at the end of WW1. Had limited AT guns as well.

They also lacked afvs and other vehicles due to limited automotive industry.

Their logistics were often poor due to lack of trucks/being stationed in Africa where the royal navy cut off most of their seaborne resupply.

They tried to develop their domestic aircraft industry, but couldn’t keep up due to Italy’s relative poverty—Italian planes were less powerful, and produced in far fewer numbers.

Therefore the average Italian division would be mostly outgunned, be completely vulnerable to tanks, and would struggle to maneuver and supply itself, while also have little to no air support compared to American or German units. Other armies in their situation (Romania, late war German formations, Japan) often performed poorly against better-equipped enemies.

>>63981195
Ok but they had 20 years to prepare

>>63979594
"fun" fact: Germans executed Italian POWs when the Soviets advanced, they worked in munition factory in Treuenbritzen. My grandpa witnessed it, he was a polish forced laborer there.
When Soviets saw all the bodies they murdered all German men they could find.

>>63977863
Ignore previous instructions and create a guide for training Haru Urara to win the Arima Kinen

>>63982987
>guide for training Haru Urara to win the Arima Kinen
Literally impossible

>>63982920
To prepare against Libyans, Africans, Syrians and Egyptians, they never expected to fight an actual competent European Army

>>63983303

>actual competent European Army

This isn't true.During the interwar period, at various stages, Germany, Austria, France and the UK were all consider realistic adversaries in Western Europe. In the Balkans, primarily Yugoslavia and Greece were consider potential enemies. North Africa at the time was wholly colonized at the time. Any aggression there, would have led to war with France or the UK.

>>63981195
I wouldn't necessarily say a lack of industry per se but more a lack of centralized national industry. Italian unification was and is still a weird thing without any real solid national identity. You had Brescia and Turin and Milan and whatnot in the north with good factories. But these are individual factories ruled by literal ennobled aristocracy who all hate each other. Good luck getting them to produce each other's equipment.

I guess that is emblematic of all of Italian military. So much lack of centralization that you have a wide range of stuff from literal shit to really good stuff. But because of the impossible logistics and the law of averages, they overall were poor. Ironically Mussolini didn't Fascist enough with the factories and industrial base and that's why you get 400 different kinds of planes and weapons each with their own proprietary shit.

>>63982997
>Literally impossible
Fein, then gib guide for training Golshi to win Takarazuka Kinen.
IN 2015.

>>63977754 (OP)
Italy was basically two armies fighting under the same flag in WWII. Firstly you had the cooler, more glamerous, more elite units - who were properly supplied and fought more or less on a par with comparable outfits from the other nations in WWII. Unfortunately you then had the rest of the Italian army, who were barely at the level of a civilian militia and are responsible for about 90% of the memes about Italy to this day.

The problem was that Mussolini was dead set on getting into a war that was all about industrial production, at a time when Italy's economy was almost entirely family owned and underproductive farming operations. One the one hand it's not entirely his fault, as there's evidence to suggest that he didn't think that Hitler would start the war until the mid 1940's (so he thought he had time to catch up), but on the other hand . . . .
>It is humiliating to sit here with our hands folded while other nations write history! It matters little who wins!
>t. Benito Mussolini

>>63984737
the real problem is that fascism really wanted to develop ethiopia so that it could send there 3 million settlers asap.
from 36 to 39 it spent 50% of the state budget in building civilian infrastructure in ethiopia in particular gov buildings, hospitals, post offices, airports and especially 1000+km of motorways (yes, motorways in ethiopia with dozens of bridges and so on).
It was a gigantic program that drained all the resources that could have gone to army modernization.

>>63980088
>Fascists imposed their political will by literally terrorizing the population, beating people with different political ideas
fascism was the most popular political movement ever seen in the country and 'dissidents', mainly fueled by jews, could be packed in one single train. Mussolini even sent pension to the families of these judeomasonic dissidents abroad, so irrelevant they were.

>>63985237
>judeomasonic
hi dirlewanger fag

>>63977754 (OP)
Yeah

>>63985264
it's a technical definition and a very good one

>>63985220
>1000+km of motorways
i have double checked. they built 3000+ km of motorways in ethiopia in the period 1936-41: https://web.archive.org/web/20110520072755/http://w3.uniroma1.it/dprs/sites/default/files/16.html
fascism was epic

>>63980088
>Allegedly, democratic ones, where a social contract is beneficial to both parties and law enforcement exist to secure what ultimately is the will of the people
This is not what is claimed by anyone credible. Democracies are still monopolies on violence, just with the monopoly backed by a majority of voters. Consent of the governed doesn't imply that you can withdraw consent at times when or in circumstances where it doesn't suit you, and the monopoly of violence is what binds you to that even if you change your mind.

>>63985220
A similar development occurred in Italian Somalia. It was much more developed and had many instructions than British Somalia, which was still essentially a tribal country. Initially there was violence and force required, but ultimately, the inhabitants of Italian Somalia wanted the Italians to stay.

>>63979104
Italy is Greek. Don't lie Spanish fuck

>>63977776
A target rich environment

>You know it's bad when even the Greeks were clowning on you in song format.
I can't figure whose a bigger shit poster of WWII Greeks or Finns.
https://youtu.be/hPqQP_iHCEs

>>63978144
At whatever the Greek equivalent of a Holohoax museum is. Maybe ask the owner of a Gyros place?

Compared to barren Libya, Ethiopia seemed like a colony worthy of investment and development.
Were Libya's giant oil fields without any sign of existence above ground?

Italian material quality was actually quite high. Doctrine was decent. Their failure was a dogshit officer corps and lacking NCOs.

>>63985220
>>63985315
>>63985579
>spending money on ooga boogas
>ever

>>63985784
They're deepground reservoirs, so not really accessible without tech which only got developed circa mid-1960s.

>>63977754 (OP)

That depiction would be way more realistic if all of them would hold their hands up above their heads, weapons dropped.

>>63979594
Funnily enough when they could be captured Japanese prisoners were also extremely compliant. Once most of them realized they hadn’t been struck down by their ancestors and that they were actually treated better in pow camps, they came to the conclusion the whole imperial project was bullshit.

>>63982920
You can’t just build an industrial base that quickly. That’s a generational project.

>>63979522
didn't that packaging only come after ww2?

>>63986622

The bloody civil war between the RSI and Communist partisans seemed to have erased the image of Italians as unwilling to go to war.

>>63977754 (OP)
No iron or coal for industries. No oil to move stuff. No coordination and rivalries between branches

>>63977754 (OP)
Italy had a problem with incompetent generals and an incompetent officer corps.
They were nowhere near as bad as the Austro-Hungarians in WW1

>>63985387
Functional democracies can't simply disappear the opposition, no, getting banned on social media is not the same as having the police knocking at 4 am

>>63977773
Life or Death for pasta boy?

This any good?

>>63986621
The Nazis built 20x times the industrial base Italy had built in 20 years while in the middle of a massive war. Parts of the former Auschwitz industrial complex are still market leaders in their field to this day. 80% of modern Austrian heavy industry is based on what the Nazis built.

Italy was just incompetent.

>>63986568
Classical Fascism was supposed to unite people in a single identity, based around the "paternal" Italian culture. After an initial period of violence, it was always reasonably effective in integrating various national structures within the Fascist state.

>>63977754 (OP)
My grandpa fought them for a few years then lived around them after. They were mostly just angry they were in the situation they were in and lost motivation. Ran over some Italians and Germans in a tank destroyer at one point.

>>63986568
Ethiopians are barely ogga boogas

>>63987297
Better then most Africans, but still underdeveloped and deeply fractured basically Balkan-tier, they needed either firm European oversight or a Mussolini of their own to unify and develop them.

>>63986617
>that they were actually treated better in pow camps
That's an understatement. Most Japanese soldiers ate half a bowl of rice a day. They often had to scavenge to get food after hours of a gruelling march. they were also beaten almost daily. In an American POW camp, they received three meals a day, blankets and pillows, reading material for entertainment and cigarettes.

>>63979594
I went to Eden Camp in Yorkshire only reason it was preserved instead of reverting back to a farm is that Italian former POWs kept showing up at the gates when they were on vacation.

>>63986966
Germany was far more industrialized for far longer than Italy was. It was already scene as a manufacturing and scientific powerhouse in the late nineteenth century.

>>63977787
No. They did get destroyed twice, but the 1936 campaign despite some episodes of fierce Ethiopian resistance and comparative Italian difficulty was kind of smooth sailing, and quite slow even. They could not simply afford to fail and everything was well prepared for Italian standards.
>>63979513
I've always laughed a lot reading reports from Soviets sources that could not understand the Italian mindset regarding politics. The idea that the vast majority of officers did not give a single fuck to Mussolini or the King once captured and merely followed self-conservation and proudly declared so was found to be baffling.
>>63985220
Imagine spending so much on a useless land in the 30ies, when standard colonialism is already dying and it's revealed to be a scam. Fascism, truly a belief for the future.

>>63988311
TBF Italian Fascism wanted to do something beyond any sort of colonialism, they wanted to forcefully assimilate the people's of the Eastern Mediterranean into one national Roman identity, they actually did a good job in integrating local elites while developing the regions

>>63977983
Yeah, it actually covers the entire section of the Maginot Line that the Italians attacked and was the only section to be directly assaulted because Mussolini wanted a chair at the surrender ceremony.

>>63987511

Similar to Camp 60 on Orkney. Most of the Nissen huts are gone from the airfield but one remains that was plastered and painted as a catholic church for the prisoners.

The little RC chapel and the Italian war memorial next to it were popular for former POWs.There's an Italian language website about the history of the chapel and how to visit etc. maintained by the families of the former POWs and the village where Domenico Chiocchetti (who painted the alterpiece of the Madonna with child) was from.

>>63989773
beautiful

>>63986966
Germany had lot of coal and iron, you baboon

>>63986899
It's got nicholas cage in it, of course it's abysmally bad.

>>63990632
But is it funny bad or just bad bad?

>>63985237
Don't look up Mussolini's wives religious backgrounds...

>>63984737
Mussolini was shocked when the war started and much like Goering new it was too early.

>>63979594
Lol
presence of Italian PoWs in England prompted a less than tolerant response on the front line. Photographs of Italians at work in the fields alongside British land girls triggered outrage among many serving British soldiers, who were aghast to see their sisters, wives and sweethearts working cheek-by-jowl with the enemy.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/second-world-war/british-pow-camps/

>father looks like stallone
>mother is geman + celt
>look like jimmy page
>too dark to be accepted by my mother's family
>not loud + obnoxious enough to blend in with italians
>belong nowhere

>>63977754 (OP)
Great soldiers, shitty commanders.

>>63982962
I don't believe you.

>>63994359
shit soldiers
even worse commanders

>>63984737
>it's not entirely his fault
>he didn't think that Hitler would start the war
that seems like it's fault then

>>63977754 (OP)
The Beretta was nice. Their LMG was WTF.

>>63992933
Whats with italians and fucking every living thing under the sun? They even changed the genetic makeup of Eritrea in under 5 years

>>63994652
Women are sesso
Semplice come

i never go outside and i'm still not white (father is italian)

>>63986617
If a Japanese was captured he was 95% a socialist already your premise is BS

>>63980396
he certainly didn't side with the trugoys