Thread 63981019

The movie "The Battle of Algiers" is arguably the film with the impact we still see today. The film was incredibly popular with leftist groups around the world, giving them many ideas and delusions about how to win Insurgencies. The film propagated many popular myths about how "you can't kill an idea" and that revolutionary violence could defeat foreign occupiers. In reality the early revolutionary violence nearly destroyed their movement, as they were continually arrested, interrogated, and subsequently had more and more members arrested. Afterward, the FLN became more cautious and organized, leading the French army on a wild goose chases, making it a routine of retreating to rural areas or neighboring Libya or Tunisia until they had built up their strength, then setting an ambush and withdrawing. Moreover, the best leaders were men who had previously served in the French army and were sufficiently knowledgeable about military discipline and how the French army functioned. None of this shown in the movie

>>63981019 (OP)
Unironically this and Chuck Norris movies for most 80s/90s militant groups and Chechens passing the time while under bombardment from Scud missiles in Grozny.
https://youtu.be/7rr88Szc5q0

Can't forget this either:
https://youtu.be/-UbwwiWF42c

>>63981019 (OP)

Didn't the Algerian War of Independence only end when the government of France literally collapsed and de Gaulle seized power in a coup?

>>63981084
Sections of the the French military overthrew the government in Algeria and this could have lead to a civil war. The French Army installed a de Gaulle as a kind of comprise. so the French Army installed a de Gaulle as a comprise, de Gaulle reformed the french system to give more power to the executive making it more manageable then the Fourth Republic. He pulled France from Algiers, but the damage had already been done. This led to the May Revolution of 1968, which De Gaulle again wanted to avoid conflict in France and stood down.

>>63981019 (OP)
I occasionally browse lefty websites, and the way they discuss Wars is fascinating, because there's never any discussion of tactics, equipment, or any of that real stuff. Instead, the discussions revolve around whether people are "revolutionary" or not. In their view revolutions happen depending if people are revolutionary or not. So if a handful of Soldiers can overthrow the Cuban government, why can't the same be done for the American government? In their minds the only reason the American government hasn't been overthrown yet is because American people aren't revolutionary enough.

>>63981084
Sections of the the French military overthrew the government in Algeria and this could have lead to a civil war. The French Army installed de Gaulle as a kind of comprise, de Gaulle then reformed the French system to give more power to the executive making it more manageable then the Fourth Republic. He pulled France from Algieria, but the damage had already been done. As this led to the May Revolution of 1968, which De Gaulle again wanted to avoid conflict in France and stood down.

>>63981019 (OP)
baghdad sniper 1 2 3 and 4

>>63981207
I used to be a bit of a lefty, and Marx and dialectics is a huge handicap on all their thought. It forms a kind of orthodoxy that even the people bucking it have to tie back into in some way to be considered legitimate. As much as they scoff at the idea, it's almost like a religion. This puts a real damper on original thought, or even their ability to look at the world empirically, and leads to them coming to some very strange and incorrect conclusions about some things that are obvious to everyone but them.

>>63981019 (OP)
Full Metal Jacket has led to a ton of hazing in CAP and Boy Scouts.

>>63982847
That's one of the reasons why the many Communist uprisings in Europe after the end of WWI failed. Their overarching strategy was to arm a few factory workers and assume a Workers' revolution would spread naturally. Instead, they were stopped by the police and quickly ended. Lenin was a rare exception, as he was willing to adapt and comprise, and he recruited many officers from the former Tsarist army. Most were not like him, and so these movements died out or were taken over by former gangsters (Stalin, Ceaușescu) or someone from the Army and Security services (Zhivkov and Jaruzelski). The end result was something Marx would have despised, Nationalist states with a cult around the leader, almost indistinguible from a Fascist state. Western Communists, detached from material circumstances and increasingly falling into an absurd postmodernism, fail to understand these factors.

>>63982847
>>63982885
I think it's because Marx really liked Utopian Socialism, which to the extent it works works on the small scale like Owenism.

One thought that's crossed my mind is the reform vs revolution argument. The idea that voting for Mamdani//Sanders/Corbyn within the system can't overthrow the system so you just need to go all out. I feel like that's a more valid argument in the 1920s, but in the 2020s the repressive power of the state is much more pervasive so I think any revolution is doomed.

>>63982931
>I think it's because Marx really liked Utopian Socialism, which
What are you talking about? From the very beginning, Marxism opposed the utopian (mostly Christian) Socialists. See Marx wrote prolifically (a whole library of literature), documenting history and commenting on every major and minor political event in his life. No other major socialist figure possessed as much literary material as Marx had, and his writings became incredibly popular among the intelligentsia.
>I feel like that's a more valid argument in the 1920s, but in the 2020s the repressive power of the state is much more pervasive so I think any revolution is doomed.
This wasn't even the case in the 1920s. After the end of the First World War, the "old Marxists" died because they all failed in their revolutions and were forced to acknowledge their failures. Marxism split into two broad movements: Marxism-Leninism and the Western new left movements.
Marxism-Leninism is based on the writings and experiences of Lenin during the Russian Revolution, which founded the USSR and on the writings and ideas of Stalin during the first period of the USSR. This form was and remains for a long time the most popular Socialist/Communist movement, with the exception in the West, which developed a separate left-wing theory based on the Frankfurt School, which we still see today.

>>63981078
>She was a good girl. Mama's apple pie. The fourth of July. SHE WAS A HOOKA

>>63983069
samefag, Successful Revolutions come down to the difference between strong and weak states Example, Leftist revolutionaries in Imperial Russia at the end of WW1 faced a military that had been gutted by Imperial Germany for years and would make a much easier opponent, this is not the case for modern America, where even a relatively moderate movement like Occupy Wall Street quickly had the NYPD trucking people into their camp and getting infiltrated, To use another example, Venezuela, in 1992 then Colonel Hugo Chavez was able to organize over 2300 soldiers to almost succeed in a coup against the Venezuelan government, In the United States this would not happen due to the overwhelming capture of the United States military by politically rightwing actors. An actual leftist would never make it to Colonel let alone General and even if they did, if they attempted a coup against the United States Government, they would most likely be detected while organizing their soldiers and that's assuming they could find any soldiers to follow their orders.
Many "class analyses," both from the left and the right, implicitly accept Marx's frameworks, portraying the Left as the weak, victimized poor rising up against the rich, powerful rightists. However, this portrayal is almost never the case, and in instances where it is, the poor are always defeated. Italian Fascism triumphed on the back of a reaction from small landowners against the "collocamento di classe." Communism did not prevail in any Western industrial country, as predicted by Marx, but rather in traditional feudal monarchies where the great magnates were still powerful. You know where else Communism won last time? Nepal.

>>63981019 (OP)
You're actually kinda wrong. The conventional phase of the FLN also ended badly, but in less catastrophic ways. They made the mistake of fighting a proper formal military in a conventional fight, which when you're guerrillas always ends badly.

The original movie was also going to be much more pessimistic and close to the ending of the Battle of Algiers, its that the Algerian militants involved in supporting the movie's production were basically threatning the crew to show them winning the battle. The original final shot of the movie was going to be Pierre and the other militants holed up in their hideout just getting blown the hell up and that's it.

>>63983587
>You're actually kinda wrong
You literally agreed with my points though, the FLN tried to fight a conventional fight and it backfired quite badly, they only won by making the War a slog, withdrawing to neighboring Libya and Tunisia or to the far deserts and then attacking and retreating again, the definition of hit and run tactics

>>63981207
They're not really wrong that Americans are not revolutionary enough? Well leftists are very political about it, but war is an extension of politics. But I think you're right that the overall knowledge of tactics and equipment is a lot lower on the left. The right might neglect politics while putting too much emphasis on the strictly military side of things. Usually where I see the left go wrong is they assume the American people are not revolutionary enough because they're somehow being brainwashed by capitalist propaganda, or that the workers really are revolutionary except the socialists are being prevented from communicating to the workers... somehow. There may be elements of truth in some sense with these theories, but I think the fact of the matter is that socialism (or revolutionary socialism) or even basic socialist principles are decidely not popular with a very large majority of Americans. A lot of Americans like the kind of Bernie Sanders-style tax-da-billionaires stuff but that's not the same thing as armed Amazon employees seizing control of warehouses and declaring themselves to be the new government as a civil war breaks out.

>>63982847
>>63982885
I'd say this is both an accurate take but also that it wasn't a crazy idea because having the revolution originating from industrial workers means manpower and control over military production sites. The working class plays a role in modern society that at least enables it to be revolutionary because of its relationship to production. Also unions have an organizational structure, so theoretically it can be a political-military command structure in embryo. (Plot twist: Israel was actually founded like this, basically. The pre-Israeli government in the Yishuv was a Jewish trade union confederation and the Haganah, which became the core of the IDF, was basically their armed wing, and a lot of them were socialists back then.)

Fun fact
It is more likely for a random person in Algeria below age 25 to speak English than French

>>63982931
>I think it's because Marx really liked Utopian Socialism, which to the extent it works works on the small scale like Owenism.
Another anon pointed this out, but I don't think that's right. Marx was for big-scale stuff. Now, that doesn't contradict your main argument here, but Marx's whole theory was against "utopian socialist" things where you just go off inna woods and establish a commune with no money and everything is free. Marx was all about how capitalist industrialization on huge scale (global scale) eliminates peasants and small-scale producers for big industries and their mass work forces, and it's those guys who become the revolutionary army of the future. Didn't work out that way, but it was an extrapolation of trends he was seeing in the 19th century. But then you can see how China can rationalize what it's doing via Marxist language. After all, you need an industrial proletariat to have communism:
https://youtu.be/L7i1LY441Hs

This did have a lot of influence because the theory is located in actual material stuff in the world like factories and shit, not just saying "we need a revolution because capitalism is bad mmm'kay." You'll see a lot of self-described communists who are like that, though.

>One thought that's crossed my mind is the reform vs revolution argument ... I feel like that's a more valid argument in the 1920s
I think the main thing is that there's no reason to have one. Historical necessity. It was different in Syria, for example. If there's a sorta-Marxist insight that I have, it's that economic necessity does rule the day on the long axis. There are random events, choices, accidents, etc. but societies which lag economically will eventually reform or abolish their political / ideological "superstructures" if they're standing in the way for a different one that better enables the development of the productive forces. Otherwise they'll perish. But it doesn't automatically follow that any given society will pick socialism.

https://youtu.be/07av5bHTsvs
Feral Historian thread?
Feral Historian thread.

The Paul Harrell of nerdshit and political philosophy.

>nuanced disucssion about marxism on /k/
I also want to point out that a lot of these groups are militant-atheists who by attacking religion often just turn the masses against them and people want the freedom to eventually own their own land even if they likely never will. I personally think Corporatism may be a next step asuming we don't make it into space fast enough since neo-liberal infinite growth capitalism is unsustainable.

>>63983081
>samefag, Successful Revolutions come down to the difference between strong and weak state
Also look at Syria again here. Weak, family-run criminal/mafia state. I think there's a whole trend underway towards a kind of business Islam that you also see in Saudi Arabia and the UAE which have been more successful. It was impossible to do business in Syria because you had to kick up to the next guy. You also had something play out like in Iran in the late 70s where a lot of people had been drained from the countryside into the cities and they went over to the rebels.

I suppose that also leads to one more point about leftists (or some leftists) who threw in with Assad. They weren't the only ones who did that, he had his loyalists. But their dogmatic view of historical change (I think it might come from Lenin) couldn't allow them to "see" what was actually happening in the real world. Or that because the revolutionaries were Islamists and not materialists they couldn't be revolutionary by definition according to the ideology. But in fact it was economic necessity that made a revolution possible if not inevitable. People hunt and around and choose the ideologies that they find suitable for their own societies.

To make it /k/, I thought this Saudi military industries ad was funny:
https://youtu.be/F1MS02EtDN4

>>63981197
>no ring
i am disappoint

>>63984020
TBF even people who lived in the Eastern Bloc and say they miss Communism don't give a shit about the actual Communist theory. For them, Communism is simply a simply having a strong state that protects and provides for them

There will never be a good movie about the algerian war because neither sides wants to declassify their warcrimes

France had dedicated chemical warfare units to gas algerians but its been so kept under wraps that it's taught neither in Algeria nor France

>>63984056
It doesnt matter because all the educated algerians speak fluent french but terrible english

>>63984191
As someone who's technically on the Right, I think many of us have moved on from the whole "commie" hysteria of the Cold War. We have more nuance and more importantly, we've seen the devastation and consequences of uncontrolled capitalism. I'm not a Marxist, but I think he and Lenin had some good ideas and observations. As for what comes next, I think the world is heading towards Central Asia, or in some sense returning to the 19th century. Countries that are essentially dictatorships, combining Nationalism, Social conservatism, and Staism.

>>63981207
>revolutionary
>aka retarded leftists
They're right though. That's why they're so mad about the Department of Education and deportations, leftists thrive in stupid and multiracial societies.

>>63985549
>uncontrolled capitalism
Nearly all of that has been extremely controlled, even crony, capitalism. I'm not making a "real capitalism has never been tried" argument, I'm simply trying to bring to your attention that no one should ask for more regulation or stronger state entities, they should ask for better regulation and more competent state entities.

>>63985576
It doesn't even matter anymore, with the current direction of AI we could get the economies of Companies and even States in the hands of a superintelligence

>>63982925
She should of had a route

>>63982052
Juba? You mean the fictional character who never got revealed because he kept getting killed?

>>63984172
FUCK YES. I introduced him a few months ago, and his reviews and additions to Draka lore are top tier.

>>63985598
Maybe, but I don't think we're that close to AIs that don't suck, and I mean hard suck even at maximising paperclips. Companies that have been integrating AI at a more operational level have been lighting their products on fire, but decision makers of both capital flows and the companies seem to be blind to how badly it's going. I think that so much product engagement is itself AI driven that the numbers decision makers use to track how well their AI implementations work are worthless for that purpose. Large tracts of the internet are literally dead and owners, advertisers etc haven't noticed yet.

>>63985623
>>63984172
He came up on my feed and I gave him a shot. He's close to my taste but I just found him too confrontational a edgy. I would have thought he was great before I matured and mellowed out a bit.

>>63985549
>uncontrolled
But that's the issue, we're a mixed economy rather than full capitalist one.

>>63985549
Lenin's "Imperalism is the ultimate state of Capitalism" is brilliant

I dont agree with anything he did once he came back to Russia though

>>63981084
Yeah the gist of it is that de Gaulle "betrayed" the Pied Noir (French in Algeria) because he calculated that an amputation was better than a prolonged forever-war which could, realistically, only end with a retreat from Algeria or by granting Arabs full equal citizenship (and de Gaulle preferred retreating lmao)

>>63985649
Some of these kids need edgy. I can't wait for The War Against the Chtorr, that's gonna be good.

>>63985640
My cousin works in tech, and he told me that a lot of people with lower salaries have lost their jobs. The worst part is that the replacement has improved overall productivity. But he's terrified that his job will one day disappear. I don't work in tech; I'm a teacher, and I'm terrified that a personalized AI program will replace me.

>>63985663
>Some
All of them do, I'm just not a kid anymore. All the best with your channel though. The hiking backdrop on the video I watched made me suspect you were here when I watched it.

>>63985653
>imperialism is capitalist
>looks at communist history
The VERY system of Communism requires imperialism. While Capitalists trade goods Communists supply weapons and subversion. If Capitalists were imperialist South America, Africa, and most of Asia would be like the US and Australia.

>>63985670
It's creating technical debt. There's an illusion that productivity is being increased, but that illusion relies on ignoring the mud pies that are being mixed in. You're right to be scared, but it's not AI being good enouvh at your job to replace you that's scary here, it's AI being good at convincing your boss's boss's boss, who has no idea how your job works, that it's good enough at your job to replace you.

>>63985671
>thinking im FH
Flattered but no.
>FH style
He outright admits he based himself off Paul which isn't a bad thing, look at guntuber market and you'll see what's popular.

>>63985679
I seriously feel that we're going to see a "silicon belt" and another great collapse is about to happen. AI code is also hilariously easy to subvert so we're about to see a age of hacking never before seen.

>>63982931
>Marx really liked Utopian Socialism
I'm a Chud and even I know this is literally the exact opposite of what Marx liked. Marxism is literally the anti-Utopian Socialism, Marx's and Engel's whole "thing" was critiquing utopians and explaining why they were wrong and unfeasible, hence Marxism calling itself "scientific socialism"

>>63984191
Ironically, the promise of land ownership is probably why the Communists won in Russia, the peasantry were fed up with the old order and couldn't tolerate a potential return of 'Whites' into power since it was a guaranteed return of magnates, nobles, etc. owning the land. The Reds, still being "untasted" at that point in 1918, offered the potential that maybe maybe they'd get land reform

>>63985679
Quality doesn't matter, removing workers and teachers is cheaper for the boss's boss
>>63985706
The Whites were a broad movement; but only areas where they held ground were where they enacted land reforms for the peasants. That was all they had to do to satisfy them.

>>63985608
>She should of had a route
She's a dyke anon, it would have never worked out and that was the whole point.
t. someone who thought 'comforting her' implied I'd just put my arm around her shoulder so she could cry on it.
[spoiler]Also Emi is best girl.[/spoiler]

>>63981197
Top zozzle.

>>63984056
>It is more likely for a random person in Algeria below age 25 to speak English than French
Understandable, look at all the African countries that speak fluent French and you'll know why they ditched that language for engrish and gayrabic.
Have you seen the state of Sierra Leone or Mali lately?

>>63985788
>Also Emi is best girl
Ah, a man with good taste. The spontaneous anal sex in a shed was weird though.

>>63985679
I love how anti-AI hysterics will claim it's ruining everything despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
>b-but I lost my job
Go get a job that is telling AI what to do. You literally need no skills, just take the blinds off your eyes.

>>63985797
>Go get a job that is telling AI what to do.
That's what Indians are for.

>>63981019 (OP)
>myths about how "you can't kill an idea"
You can't though

>>63985788
>Emi is best girl

Rin for me, always and forever.

>>63985839
Are you telling me you are literally worse than an Indian? That's so sad anon. In that case just commit some crimes and get a job making license plates because IDK what else can you even do.

>>63985728
>Quality doesn't matter, removing workers and teachers is cheaper for the boss's boss
Cost never matters as much as value.
>>63985797
>anti-AI hysterics will claim it's ruining everything
I work with multiple types of AI daily, and develop models on the reg. One of my siblings did their doctorate on AI. One of my other siblings is a CTO for a (many) multi-billion dollar leading-edge AI startup. My father is a world-leader in two AI fields and has dozens of patents.

I am the furthest thing from an anti-AI hysteric, but I think that AI is far less good at most of the things that people think it's good at than most people, especially senior decision makers, think. If you want a familiar example, consider video games - everyone wants to cream over OpenAI dunking on DotA or Starcraft, but it does those on patched and headless versions of the game especially designed for it, with direct memory access, and those agents can only play one game. If you force AI to use non-patched versions with human interfaces and to play more than one game, then it flounders to below novice human level even on suites as simple as the librari of classic Atari games.

AI proponents are blinded by their own desires for it to succeed and by, frankly, silly benchmarks that are used to measure the success they want to see.
>despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary
May we see it? Show me a non-trivial AI and I will make it give incorrect outputs after minimal fiddling.

>>63985689
Nah, it'll probably look like the dot-com bubble.

>>63985964
I think with AI we're seeing something akin to what happened in the Soviet Union, in that imperfect metrics of production create massive distortions because methods begin to revolve around hitting the metrics. Vibe coding being the main example.

>>63986059
>Nah, it'll probably look like the dot-com bubble.
It's going to be a bit worse, because there was nothing.com that anything had become reliant on yet, and noone.com had hoarded troves of personal data that they could desperately exploit in very undesirable ways or firesell when they started to go under. When AI and web2.0 start to go under, it has the potential to be very ugly.
>measurement problem
>misaligned incentives
Yes, but it's also that a lot of AI development has gone from academic to deployed really way too quickly because capital was so accessible and everyone was trying to bootstrap. In doing that, developing more robust testing methods were unfeasible and not in anyone's career or financial interests, at least not anyone on the doing side of the VC pie. People wrote their own domain ML benchmarks for whatever ML they were developing to show how good it was at what they wanted to sell it for, or used existing old and unfit ones from academia. Companies raced to snap it up or to IPO it before someone stole the IP or hype, and the race left little time for writing useful benchmarks that could really check for the emperor's clothes in all this. So that's why we have half-dressed royalty running around.

>>63986059
>>63986155
I think AI shills are deluded in many cases, but this is not comparable to a dot-com bubble, because unlike the promises of the early internet, AI's uses can and have been delivered, literally hundreds of thousands of people have lost their jobs because of AI, millions of jobs been affected by AI, we have to be a little cautious of what's coming

>>63983081
>You know where else Communism won last time? Nepal.
Damn

>>63985502
>because neither sides wants to declassify their warcrimes
Give him the funds and let him run loose with the script.

>>63983763
Well then we agree :)

>>63981197
kek this is why I still come to this website

>>63981019 (OP)
The movie "WarGames" featured the NORAD command center with a control room and a large screen displaying the entire world, including missile launch pads and flight paths. Such a room and screen didn't exist at the time, but when some Generals saw the film, they liked the idea and installed it.

>>63985797
>Go get a job that is telling AI what to do
The problem is that getting such a job requires technical on-the-job experience that is simply unattainable in modern America because all the lower jobs you would use as stepping stones have already been automated away or given to DEI hires. Meanwhile Indians (Not advanced enough to automate all their jobs away yet) and Chinese (Not stupid enough to automate all their jobs away yet) are still building those skills. American CEOs and boards of directors will rationalize their own shortsightedness by saying that automation will increase profits, but they don't realize they are also creating a large underclass of disgruntled young men drowning in debt who have no practical skills, and will soon reach the point where they can't fill the jobs that can't be automated because nobody has the skills for them, and all the foreigners who came here to fill the jobs will send their money back home. America's talent base is literally being hollowed out from the inside.

>>63985964
>Show me a non-trivial AI and I will make it give incorrect outputs after minimal fiddling.
Nta, but since you were talking about games, I thought the CICERO AI for the board game Diplomacy was rather impressive, because it can't just brute force the best tactical moves as that'll cause the other players to gang up against it.

>>63981019 (OP)
The concept of a Combat Information Center originated from some science fiction novel. The author had the foresight to envision the problems a futuristic navy would face—namely, "too much information to process"—and devised a solution in the form of a CIC. This would later serve as inspiration for the US Navy to implement its own CICs.

>>63990639
Technically, ships already had a CIC of sorts. Problem is, that was the bridge, which is exposed to enemy fire. Lots of ships got fucked early in a battle, when a hit baleeted everybody on the bridge, leaving the ship leaderless. By moving the command center deep inside the ship, it became protected from such (un)lucky shots.

>>63985576
>>63985651
This you?

>>63985559
wrong

>>63990654
The shift from bridges to CICs was much more than just moving it into the citadel. CICs are closer to a chart room than a bridge.

>>63990778
>This you?
No. Not only do I not describe myself as conservative, I do ascribe to conserving about half the things on that list and don't care that much about GDP (productivity is far more important).

>>63987054
Early internet already delivered promises though, not unlike AI now. The thing is, the valuations were clearly mispriced at that point in time for what it delivered.
Again, not unlike AI, eh.

>>63981084
>>63985657
>Ok we'll just leave
>The Arabs follow you home anyways

>>63990778
Allow me to introduce you to the Soviet Union tovarisch, where the environment doesn't matter in comparison to advancing the nation, and communism!

>>63989101
Sounds like you are a degreelet. I work at a 95% White American R+D company that uses AI in the manufacturing processes we develop.

>>63984172
Feral Historian is a favorite. Nice.

>>63990945
Good thing I'm not a Communist

>>63991008
We already have a mixed economy tovarisch, only people that give a fuck about parks are richfags who visit them.

>>63990935
Ironically, Boumediène himself was a Francophile and wanted positive relations with France and no migration issues, but May 68 was allowed to happen. De Gaule could have stopped it at any time, but he was afraid that if the French Army started beating up protesting leftists it would lead to a bad public image, so he let faggot academics take over.

>>63991026
I'm a teacher, not rich by any means and if there were no regulations most corporate cockroaches and libertarians would allow a billion Indians in. I care about protecting and promoting, National values, Heritage and History and that doesn't make me a Communist

>>63991041
For a teacher interested in history you sure don't know anything about conservation. Like I said, its rich people with interests that gave us national parks.

>>63991056
Different types of 'rich' have different goals and social values, there is a huge difference between a Cattle baron and a silicon valley tech CEO for e.g. I am not against the wealthy existing, in fact they can be integrated with in a national system for the good of the nation.
I would also like you to hear you give examples of real libertarian states without any regulations and how well they went

>>63991088
Keep jousting those lolbert Giants mi amigo, but conservation doesn't happen with more government than we have now.

>>63991093
Again, I'd like you give me any examples of what you consider "good" societies that didn't have any sort of regulation

>>63991064
I'm a Conservative Socialist who believes that Military or civil service should be mandatory and hunting should be encouraged to tackle invasive species

No wonder our kids cant read, the teachers are socialists

>>63981019 (OP)
>The movie "The Battle of Algiers" is arguably the film with the impact we still see today. The film was incredibly popular with leftist groups around the world
It was just soviet backed propaganda, like oliver stones documentary on Putin or is JFK conspiacy film or Tucker Carlesons shit. Its just become more obvious. The FIS (algreian islamic algerian revolutionaries) genocied entire areas of the Atlas mountains where there were non muslim berbers and others. A lot of the n ative algerians were not muslim but animism, they mostly fought with the french or were genocided by the isalmic state revolutionaries. This was not a simple war. Algers was a very French city at that point and they just bombed soft targets like cafes. The FIS hijacked algeria, today they would beseen as another Russian created ISIS. The problem the French have and have always had is Paris, its fileld with eliteist civil servents and their indolent children so they conscipted from rural areas like brittany and sent those men to help the scum of the earth, the French colonists who were the dregs of both France and Algeria and entirely responsible for the hatred they brought down on them and the opening they created for an early soviet experiment backing Islamic radicals. One man I knew who served there told me the colonists wouuld not even let them take water from their wells when they were on patrol. Algeria remained a Russian military client to this day and were big buyers of utter shit like the Russian terminator BMP retardation.

Algeria is one of those places the cold war was fought and it was a place where teh soviets won and installed their proxy and its been shit ever since. Rural algeria is just a crap as it was but now algers is crap as well.

Algerians themselves amongst all the north africans have a bad reputation for petty violence, rage fits and criminality compared to moroccans or tunisians for example as a legacy of the war and their quasi failed muh mohammed state.

>>63991105
What happens when the socialists dont focus on the environment but advancing socialism, like every time they take over?

>>63991124
Again, if unbridled capitalism is so great, I'm just asking for some examples

>>63991122
Despite this, Algeria still needed the FLN or the French (at least the real French) to develop it, but that process was interpreted. when the Islamists (funded and trained by the CIA and the Saudis in Afghanistan) caused shit

>>63991136
You're making up strawmen to justify socialism being the answer when socialists historically have a worse environmental track record than lolberts. No wonder our kids are so dumb these days if you're the one teaching them.

>>63983069
>From the very beginning, Marxism opposed the utopian (mostly Christian) Socialists
You are wrong see Marx Paris Manuscripts which were prior to all his magical historical inevitable process nonsense plagarised from hegel. Marx is worthless garbage
>>63983069
>No other major socialist figure possessed as much literary material as Marx had
He was a Pussian agent, most of it as written for him by the prussian ministry of the interior. It had no purpose other than to destabalise what were percieved by the prussians as adversary states. It's ultimate conclusion was lenin in a tarin with a printing press. Marx even wrote to his father in law that the Frech were begining to suspect he was a prussian agent. Everything Russian does now with disinformation and destabalisationw as invented by Bismark during the unification of Germany and Marx was never anything more than a way to co-opt foreign subversives innto Prussian intersests, quite often by ruining their own nations. All maxists have always been useful idiots for foreign powers. Just like maga or any other politciial movement shaped by propaganda from a hostile power. The USA itself is noting more than the consequence of similar tactics by the French to destabilise British british colonies and areas like the American states, portions of India, Ireland etc
t. picked up a degree in politics and have been a spook most goverment files on what really happned in history are classified for good reasons.

>>63991146
All I ask of you is that you give examples. I consider the dictatorships of the Interwar period as my ideal of Socialism for states, now you?

>>63991136
>Again, if unbridled capitalism is so great, I'm just asking for some examples
Railroads
The personal computer
Video games
Agricultiural output
Long range wireless and wired communication
The television
The telephone
The mobile phones and mobile data
Heart surgery and tjousands of life saving drugs
Homme isulation, modern building materials
Modern logistics
Databases
Email
The firearm
comemrical satellites
etc etc etc

You are an idiot. You don;t even understand reality, its not that capitalism or the free market is 'great' or 'awful' it just IS. It is the only real way of maximisig effeciency in metteing supply and demand. There is no alternative and none has ever been demonstrated to function (and when they fail they create much greater powerty and want quite often combined with tyranny). Every timme people like you interfere or try to modify the free market you make it less effecient and create more poverty. You may not like reality but there it is. People are self interested shits.

>>63991183
>>Again, if unbridled capitalism is so great, I'm just asking for some examples
Aviation
The internal compustion engine
Electrification
The telegraph
Steel
Passanger planes
The radio

>>63991174
>consider the dictatorships of the Interwar period as my ideal of Socialism for states
Well your a moron because all they did was rack up debt and waste the money on weapons that they used to launch self destructive wars to try and rob other states. How fucking stupid are people to come here and genuinnely spam shit saying they thing hitlers germany or marx was great stuff. Milennials are a generation of morons.

>>63991122
This anon knows his shit.

>>63991183
I specifically asked for states and I am not advocating a classless society by the way.

>>63991201
Vive le mort vive le guerre vive le sacre mercenaire

>>63991197
It's not a generational thing, it's a "I've never actually lived in a socialist dictatorship and experienced gulags and breadlines first hand" thing.

>>63991206
You are a self described authoritarian socialist advocating the abolishment of the most productive economic system in human history, so his listing of things produced by that system as a simple counter is completely fair. You just want societies optimized for different things ie. unchecked centralized state power if you're like every other socialist I've ever talked to and honest enough with yourself to realize it. It's not by accident that North Korea is basically an absolute monarchy.

>>63991245
Actually my country was ruled by both a Fascist occupied state and a Socialist state, my grandparents generation still thinks both eras were better than today

>>63991257
West Germany is a serious case of Stockholm sybdrome, it's studied.

>>63991257 #
East Germany is a serious case of Stockholm syndrome, it's studied.

>>63991282
Your thinking of East Germany and I'm not from there

>>63991257
When the usual statistics are posted showing that a random majority of some former Eastern Bloc country prefers the socialist past to the capitalist present, they are not making any ideological or even personal statements. They simply miss the large national army, cultural events, paternal state institutions, and they actually don't care about the exact specifics of Communism or Fascist ideology.

>>63991174
You mean the dictatorships that got into dumb expansionist wars and turned their countries into occupied ruins? Or do you mean the other dictatorship type that got into dumb expansionist wars and needed to be baoled out by Capitalists?

>>63984191
>militant-atheists
I get that, but they're also ludicrously tolerant of Islam despite being repeatedly killed by Muslims, and also still support Islam to the point of collaborationism.

>>63991257
I don't know where you are, but considering how hard they've clung to power here in the US and rigged the system to their benefit, boomers vouching for something is almost an argument against it.

>>63991360
See >>63983069 original Communism were against all religion(though it gradually lessened during the late Stalin-era)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hujum
After World War II, another tradition developed in the West, which rejected the Eastern block and Orthodox Marxist model, called the New-Left
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Left

>>63991323
I was referring to states like Zogist Albania, the State of Austria and to an extent Fascist Italy
>>63991388
That's your logic, that because they were born around the same time, they must magically have the same values and experiences It's like >>63991308 said, they know there were a lot of bad things back then, but what they miss is the general social and political atmosphere fostered by a strong, centralized state that didn't abandon the entire essence of its culture to market mechanisms, they also miss the guarantee of getting a job, still I know those systems weren't perfect and there needs to be a a sector for private enterprise

>>63991389
Whatever they might say, the Marxist mockery of Hegelism is essentially a religious mantra. Every time a tankie cites the Marxist theory of history as proof communism will one day arrive, it sounds just like a Christian fundie who bangs on about the second coming of Jesus Christ.

the entire 'proletariat' now has the means to produce and publish anything they want in their hand and yet they produce nothing but pictures of their genitals and converations about sportsball any dictatorship by them would be a triumph of the inane and mediocre

>>63991407
So the minor powers that still got involved in dumb shit?

>>63991388
>considering how hard they've clung to power here in the US and rigged the system to their benefit, boomers vouching for something is almost an argument against it.
but silence on the geriatric xi and putin hey? Just hate your own grandparents and parents in the USA like a gud garger of enemy state propaganda.
fool

>>63991581
After decades of subversion, Also I don't think there will be a proletariat revolution by Marxist means, but there will be in Bonapartist revolution, where in times of true chaos, an ambitious Army officer or a populist political fire with the support of some security forces, will take power

>>63991597
Of course Comrade Xi and Tsar Putin would gladly mulch the majority of their countries' population for their own political gain I'm sure. Putin has already killed or crippled like a million men to barely advance from what he'd seized prior to 2022. My criticism of the US is because I want it to be better, not because I consider autocratic shitholes to be better; I'm not some 200% demoralized /pol/tard.

>>63990958
You're proving my point. Degrees are no longer as valuable as they once were nor do they prove competency, therefore employers will prioritize real work experience. But young people cannot get work experience without a job, and they cannot get a job without work experience. This gap in the work force will be filled by AI and foreign workers who maintain AI while Americans continue to get fucked over and become more radicalized. How do you propose all the recent graduates in the oversaturated job market of compsci/cybersecurity get jobs when they have so many barriers to entry?

>>63981078
What did this do?

>>63985512
This, I know how to pronounce croissant, but I will be damned to say water without fumbling and fucking the word.

>>63991056
Yeah, before (((greed))) takes over and they start bankrupting your economy so you are forced to sell your house for dirt cheap to them and see the whole land turned into a resort for the elites.

>>63985674
Lenin didnt deny the USSR was capitalist though

>>63993959
but did Stalin

>>63993959
>it wasn't real communism
Come back in 4 years.

>>63991409
Accurate. It also inherently stifles any discussion of things when they threaten to disagree with Marxist orthodoxy.
>Communist authorities and ideological watchdogs prevented serious research on the Black Death and the following plague epidemics, suspecting (correctly) that this study could establish disturbing alternative demographic views to Marxist orthodoxy on important historical developments in the late Middle Ages.
>The late-medieval crisis was, for all practical purposes, unknown when Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin formulated Communist orthodoxy, and quite generally historical demography was in an emergent stage of development.
>Historical demographic perspectives and Malthusian theory have been disregarded and discarded by almost all Marxists, not only by politicians but also by scholars working on the basis of Marxist theory with various later dogmatic additions and adaptations.
>Those who saw things differently had to espouse such notions or ideas if they wished to stay alive and in their academic positions. For this reason, the study of the Black Death, later plague epidemics and historical demography more generally have been neglected in the Communist period, and that was also the case in Poland.
>t. Ole J. Benedictow

>>63983069
> other major socialist figure possessed as much literary material as Marx had, and his writings became incredibly popular among the intelligentsia.
And this fucked up Socialism. The Marxists devoured all previous Socialist movements in Europe, many of which were Conservative and supported the rule of the Monarchy, the Church, and the Army, rather than the rising ""bourgeoisie"" But Marx's all-or-nothing retardation seriously hampered this.Perhaps >>63991155 was right and he was some spook

>>63985886
it can be done if you are competent enough

>>63994788
Neither did he
Neither did any USSR leader actually, it was always "Socialism in 5 years"

>>63985793
>The spontaneous anal sex in a shed was weird though.
Consequences of not knowing what an enema is and not taking it slow and steady for the first time.

>>63985797
>I need AI to teach me how to use common fucking sense and use browser query's
Just drop the fucking nukes at that point, I'd rather be vaporized if the alternative is living among an increasingly dumber population by the day who can't even function an engage in basic critical thinking or problem solving skills unless every active volcano in the world is retrofired into a geothermal power plant all so Silicon Valley tech bros and Jeets can foolishly peruse their delusions of creating some cybernetic demi god with a million racks of over hyped Nvidia GPU's.

I'm tired of this AI hype shit, it's unironically making me nostalgic for the days when retards were throwing their money into meme's like blockchain and NFT's.

>>63984020
People are too comfortable. You don't stand up and fight the local monopoly on violence if you're pretty comfortable, or at least, plan on living to see next year. Americans, for all their shit healthcare and wage slavery and corrupt, self serving politicians, are still getting a pretty good quality of life.

And it will only get harder as the surveillance state comes home. All the facial recognition, phone tracking, stingrays, etc that have been tested and developed on Palestinians are going to get deployed at home because of course they will, why wouldn't they? Americans are going to get their own social credit scores courtesy of Palantir and OpenAI.

Also institutions are vastly stronger than they've ever been in all of history.

>>63991245
>experienced gulags and breadlines
The ur-example of breadlines is 1930s America.

>>63998332
Even 200 years ago, a proletarian revolution wasn't possible in a Western industrialized country. The only exceptions were the Bonapartist revolutions that we saw coming or that were supported by the Military. So you either need a complete collapse of the state and or you wait for a military-backed coup.

>>63991625
>but there will be in Bonapartist revolution, where in times of true chaos, an ambitious Army officer or a populist political fire with the support of some security forces, will take power
looks like someone ITT's finally figured it out

>>63981019 (OP)
its also kino as fuck another kino that made a influence on some militant groups is State of Siege (1972) with a similar anti colonial topic killing zogbots.

>>64000860
It's not hard to realize, whether in Central Asia, Latin America, or pre-World War II Europe, whenever true chaos starts, an Army officer and his allies always will always rise to power and create a dictatorship. Marx recognized this in his time and considered it one of the greatest hurdles orthodox Marxism would face.

>>64001190

Coups can start with the logic of restoring democracy and stabilizing the nation but the very act of usurping the state at the bayonet point destroys shatters the veil of legitimacy and prevents it simply being put back together Now with No Corruption™

Unless your name is Flt. Lt. Jerry Rawlins I guess.

>>64001190
but what if, like de gaulle and like the eponymous Bonaparte - that officer truly loved his people and sought the best for them? As rare as that may be, stranger things have been known to happen...

>>64001266
De Gaulle wasn't the one who initiated the coup; he was appointed to prevent a Civil war between radical elements of the Army and the state. Bonaparte had sincere ideals and didn't want to be a power-hungry warlord, but like >>64001260 said, whatever the Intentions, The act of usurping the state destroys the legitimacy of democracy and liberalism

>>63985657
>(and de Gaulle preferred retreating lmao)
once a french ww2 officer, always a french ww2 officer.

>>63998305
You seem rather knowledgeable about all things related to bum secks anon.
I'm tired of this AI hype shit, it's unironically making me nostalgic for the days when retards were throwing their money into meme's like blockchain and NFT's.
Understandably GPU prices weren't nearly as fucked back then either aside from the short period of time people were hording them for crypto mining farms.

>>63998305
>Consequences of not knowing what an enema is
You seem rather knowledgeable about all things related to bum secks anon.
>I'm tired of this AI hype shit, it's unironically making me nostalgic for the days when retards were throwing their money into meme's like blockchain and NFT's.
Understandably GPU prices weren't nearly as fucked back then either aside from the short period of time people were hording them for crypto mining farms during the KungFlu. Sadly I don't see AI slop being a temporary fab given corporations and governments are already pushing for wearable's like that stupid Rabbit pin that failed miserably but certainly won't be the last time they try and world ID which most certainly will be integrated with AI too because 'reasons'. Nukes are preferable to the dystopian future we're otherwise heading to.

Let's all become tunnel snakes InnaVault I say.

>>64003036
The poster is right in that De Gaulle only ever got into power by political coups and not legal means but i'm not sure if he means that

>>63990778
>conservative
>created national parks, EPA, and whose whole platform is preserving culture and values
You need your kneecaps broken.

>>63991105
>im a fuckin retard
We know.

>>63991136
>unbridled
That's the problem, it's not. The state comes in and destroys it every time.

>>63998358
>bread lines
>1930's America
>not 1920's USSR
Oooooooooof

>>63996359
I'd argue it's because of Marx's all-or-nothing retardation that Marxism is still alive today. In practice the previous Socialist movements were a bunch of proto-reformist cucks supporting the very institutions that go against them.

I feel like only recently as the Gen Xers aged out of the zeitgeist that Solider of Fortune magazines influence has faded.

>>64006494
"Marxism" is alive and well, but the actual "Marxist-Leninist" states had far more in common with the ideas of the various Conservative socialist factions than any other group. I'm not saying this is a bad thing personally, but the Marxist cultists need to stop considering their ideology divine.

>>63985640
>I don't think we're that close to AIs that don't suck,
This time last year AI hands looked like this and guns were even worse. Now they're very passable.

I no longer doubt AI's ability to improve rapidly at avtask. What I doubt is our ability to find a use for it outside of composing email responses and statistically parsing large amounts of unbiased. Many accountants in the private sector and analysts at the DoD will lose their jobs.

>>64007899
>AI hands looked like this

>>63991183
these technologies are all evil though.
for all their benefits they have:
allowed people to be alienated from society;
worsened the enviroment;
made us unhealthier, resulting in a rise in mental disorders & disabilities, which they then 'heal' with more drugs & more medical technologies which put people into debt;
allowed for massive data collection so that people may be manipulated by corporations & surveilled by their governments & inhuman ai algorithms;
allowed for unnatural human growth which has to be sustained by enviromental exploitation;
etc.
in order to sustain this, they also exploit third world countries, shittifying their nations aswell, & then import them into our nations for labor, thereby also increasing the burden on us.
these issues also are prevalent in socialist nations aswell, the issue lies in technology.

>>64006283
>created national parks
Then gutted them
>EPA
Then gutted it
>and whose whole platform is preserving culture and values
Conservative "culture" and values are:
1) Seething about trannies
2) Seething about brown people
3) Sucking Israel's dick
4) Sucking billionaires' dicks

>>64008309
I'm a Socialist myself, but I understand there are factions and subgroups within the Right wing. Historically, there were always Socialist/pro-labor factions within what we might call the "old Right." The new left abandoned the working class to degenerates and zionists who led them into issues that go against their true interests, while they themselves have increasingly fallen into a postmodern bullshit. Even you are infected to some extent.

>>64009390
It's actually infuriating to see that the current mainstream "conservatism" is just being self-absorbed uncouth niggers with different skin colors. They hate the skin but worship Andrew Tate and other "alpha/sigma" males (read: niggers) without a hint of irony. They only spouse old conservative values only if there are tangible benefits for them alone or using them as clubs to bully others. They can tradlarp as much as they want, but a nigger behavior is still a nigger behavior even if you are dressed like a 1950s White man.

>>64010295
Cultural context is important. 20 years ago, a large proportion of men who now consider themselves conservative, though not necessarily left-leaning, were anti-morality, because they believed conservatives were culturally inhibiting on their pleasure. For example, the following issues were strongly associated with conservatives
>Anti-violent video games
>Anti-Swearing
>Anti-Raunch
>Anti-Marijuana
The left was the side of GTA, porn, lighting a blunt, etc, etc. but around the 2010's the roles in many people's eyes were completely reversed. The left is the side of "SJWs", of micro aggressions, of language policing, of checking your privilege, of Priuses and so the guys who wanted scantily clad women in movies who hated the moralistic Right now hated the left, that's really when the Manosphere took off as well, but that group never had coherent politics beyond posturing as libertarians ("we like conservatism but also fast-food and drugs")

>>63985549

>uncontrolled capitalism

Why do people keep repeating this claim. FFS more than 30% of the labor force works for the state or exclusively state contractors/NGOs. Nearly all large firms have majority or significant minority ownership by the Fed through the BlackRock asset purchase/investment vehicles. Every company over 50 employees must have a HR political commissar on staff by federal law. Nine out of ten of the richest per capita counties in the country are all suburbs of Washington DC. Etc, etc, I could go on and on. The US economy is genuinely best described as market socialism; and I don't mean that as some boomer pejorative, just a realistic assessment of the system.

>>64011961
>The US economy is genuinely best described as market socialism; and I don't mean that as some boomer pejorative, just a realistic assessment of the system.
The fact was that the US always had certain "Socialist" policies, even during the height of the red scare." They just didn't call them socialist.

>>64011961
>>64012555
the truth is that using socialism/capitalism distinctions to refer to the current US economy (and wider global financial system) is nearing on obsolete in the present day. I think many marxist observations or thoughts on economics are definitely worth it but we need to get new ideas in. I'm primarily surprised at the lack of radical new ideologies on economics coming out, especially given how people thought the internet would've helped spread new ideas.
>hint hint get rid of central banks and usury based economics

>>64013323
*"are definitely worth looking at"
(had to specify this correction because it currently looks like my post endorses marxism which I do not, or at least only in small parts)

>>64012555
This is one of the reasons why the "left" in the West abandoned the working class. The workers' unions either sided with the Conservative establishment or were pro-Soviet. they shifted to supporting the "lumpenproletariat"

>>64006303
One is a country in war, then civil war, for over a decade. A dozen different foreign powers occupying or active within the country.
Protracted war in an area will create a famine anywhere.

The other is a country in peace time operating under it's own ideal conditions.
>In the shadow of the steeple I saw my people,
>By the relief office I seen my people;
>As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking
>Is this land made for you and me?

>>63991105
>Military or civil services should be mandatory
>mandatory
you're being a fag on purpose?

>>64015031
I agree that forceful Military conscription may be pointless in certain cases. That's why I believe there should be freedom of choice for both the Military and the civil services. It will help educate our population and help them with long-term employment.

>>63991183
>Homme isulation
Based QOTSA fan autocorrect

>>64012555
Unions and basic workplace safety != the state taking over all private property and abolishment of wages

>>64013726
Yes, we know, poor russia dindu nuffin. And if anything bad happened, it was the fault of everyone but the people who were running the country. Also they were all kulaks and deserved it. I've seen the tankie/wife beater dialogue tree before. How many millions of people starved to death in the Great Depression again?

>>64008309
>either
No. It's more like "socialists bloated both with so much graft they become detrimental".
>seething about things destroying society
Yes.
>sucking billionaires dicks
Odd how the Democrats have the most lobbyists and spent 1.5 BILLION and lost.
>gif
Elon Musk needs human test subjects, and you'll be voluntold.

>>64008072
>any of this
The wilderness awaits.

>>64013726
>millions died in the great depression
>it was because of capitalism!
The Great Depression was caused by government interference in the markets, demanding overproduction, refusing to inflate the currency, and excessive taxation made a situation where nobody could buy, pay for what they made, or borrow.

>>63981197
Beautiful work.

>>64017244
Wow! So it got better when Hoover tried stopping that right?

>>64016012
Both Eisenhower and Roosevelt worked closely together, providing financial support and guidance to trade unions in the US.

>>63981197
thanks

>>63981019 (OP)
Surprised no one mentioned Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show. It was basically a traveling circus act, with trick shooting and mock battles between Cowboys and Indians. Every idea of Cowboys and the West comes from these shows. These shows transformed the Cowboy from a worker who herded cattle for wealthy ranchers into an American mythical figure. These shows would then be presented and expanded through dime novels and then finally cowboy movies, influencing millions.

>>64017758
It wasn't Hoovers place to stop it. Capitalism should be as removed as Church and State. The government shouldn't be allowed to interfere in any way, shape, or form with Capitalism or vice versa.

>>64021603
Then idiot oligarchs will tear the country apart chasing short term returns and the country will get eaten by one practicing a less retarded system.
Or one of those oligarchs will just become the new state.
Your platonic capitalism ideal is like one of those laboratory synthesized elements that can only exist for fractions of a second.

>>64021701
Don't bother, he's going to call you a Commie Nazi or some shit

Wasn't Megaforce supposed to be an influence on the experimental Light Attack Battalion concept and the composition and intended role of the 9th Infantry division in the 1980s when it was rocking dune buggies and motorbikes?

>>63984020
No population that has an obesity problem is going to do a revolution. The fact of the matter is only populations that are suffering do revolutions

>>64023244
It depends on what kind of revolution you want to achieve. I agree that we won't see a proletarian revolution anytime soon, but bourgeois and more often Bonapartist revolutions occur almost naturally when states are experiencing chaos.

>>64021701
>they'll tear the country apart!
Any fucking day now.
>>64021792
Nazi Commie.

>>64024598
So is it real capitalism or not lmao

>>64023179
What?

>>63981019 (OP)
>spamming off topic bait AGAIN
For fucks sake go back to >>>/tv/ already

>>64023179
Never heard this. Sauce?

>12 day old thread
4chan is so dead it's unreal

>>64030262
There's nothing wrong with the thread. Make new ones if you can't stand a slower board. (You won't.)

>>64023179
Probably not considering there is only a year between the film releasing and the reorganization of the 9th infantry division.

>>64027534
control yourself