Thread 63994541

What made him so good?

Situational awareness and teamwork.

His family were hobbyist pilots and his mother was a glider instructor, so he went into the luftwaffe with a pre-existing foundation in flying. Idk about WW2, but certainly in WW1 most pilots died in their first few flights; so already having some skill right out the gate confers a massive advantage and that gap widens as you become more experienced. Beyond that, its just pure luck.

>>63994541 (OP)
Propaganda victories

>>63994541 (OP)
Flying against Russians piloting American hand-me-downs until the end of the war.

>>63994541 (OP)
flying an idiotic number of missions against a rather poorly trained opposition plus a significant degree of natural talent for situational awareness

>>63994541 (OP)
mastered boom-and-zoom when no one else did

Seal clubbing slavs.

>>63994541 (OP)
eastern front, knew when to disengage, preferred ambush tactics over dogfighting (which is correct).

>>63994541 (OP)
being a handsome fella

>>63994676
>preferred ambush tactics
wouldn't that waste his wingmen? what were they supposed to do the whole time?

>>63994541 (OP)
Shooting conscripts with lees flight time than you need to get a driving license.

>>63994748
>During his career, Hartmann was forced to crash-land his fighter 16 times after either mechanical failure or damage received from parts of enemy aircraft he had shot down;
>he was never shot down by direct enemy action.

>>63994541 (OP)
>What made him so good?
>345 Soviet and 7 American

Gee I wonder what.

>>63994609
This plus >>63994554

Why mentioning him so much seethe on /k/?
>inb4 he shot down slavs
yeah, because allied 20 to 1 advantage was definitely a fair fight

Naturally gifted and German pilots were in a different league compared to Soviet pilots for almost the entirety of the war.

Now Marseilles
*sips*
THATS a real fighter ace

>>63994541 (OP)
Allies would rotate out aces but the Axis would just keep them on the front until they died or racked up huge kill counts.

>>63994554
Cope.

>>63994846
Commie shitskin redditors, vatniks, and JIDF.

>>63994846
Where do you see seething in the thread? Point to the posts

Shitskins already seething in this thread: "i-it was Axis propaganda" pathetic leftist tankie cope
Bubby's life was basically a movie plot:
>shot down 300+ enemy planes
>never been shot down
>never sustained a major injury
>imprisoned for bombing soviet bred factory)))))
>released early
>went back to being a pilot
>quit his job because the F104 was a complete piece of shit and he knew it
>didn't become one of the Widowmaker's victims unlike many who died early
>died of old age in the fucking 1990's
>most of his pilot buddies died in the 1940's
Bubby was THE main character. This guy's life is almost too perfect to be real he literally survived as the biggest Ace of WW2, survived Soviet imprisonment and survived the F104.

So many people would've died 10 times over yet this fucker got to see the internet as well.

>>63994541 (OP)
Literally cheesing hard with the most exploitative meta. His winning move was approaching the enemies six from their dead zone then unloading all guns into them from point blank range, times 350.

He wasn't some virtuoso turn-fighting expert like Hans-Joachim Marseille. He was a Chinese MMO player.

>be so notorious among the Soviets that they were scared to engage you
>give your distinctive black nose Karaya-1 to the newbie pilots so they'd be left alone
>fly an unremarkable 109 yourself

>>63994541 (OP)
Bottomless racism against poor russia

>>63994541 (OP)
The German "fly until you die" philosophy was actually hugely destructive. For ever 1 Hartmann or Rall there were hundreds of veteran pilots who got a couple of victories, got some experience and then died from making mistakes because of cockiness, tiredness, sheer war weariness or just bad luck and statistics. And they took their knowledge and skill to the grave with them.
The allied method of pulling veteran aces out of the front line and sending them to train new pilots meant that allied pilots were always benefitting from experience as well as first hand knowledge of the cutting edge of tactics, and this made a huge difference in the air. German new pilot attrition rates were horrific.

>>63994683
Survive, or die trying.

>>63994541 (OP)
>Galland wanted to transfer Hartmann to the Messerschmitt Me 262 test program but, at Hartmann's request, the transfer was cancelled on the grounds of his professed attachment to JG 52.[82] Hartmann argued to Göring that he best served the war effort on the Eastern Front.
He was like some of those poker "pros" who spend their lives skinning fishes but leave the table if they see actual poker players there. Also:
>Later that month, P-51s ran his Messerschmitt out of fuel. During the intense manoeuvring, Hartmann ran out of ammunition.[69] One of the P-51Bs flown by Lt. Robert J. Goebel of the 308th Squadron, 31st Fighter Group, broke away and headed straight for Hartmann while he hung in his parachute.[72] Goebel was making a camera pass to record the bailout and banked away from him only at the last moment, waving at Hartmann as he went by.
Never shot down you say? Bailing out just after you had missed all your shots was a smart move I guess.

>>63994541 (OP)
homo sovieticus aren't good at flying planes

>>63994577
>>63994609
>>63994675
>>63994676
>>63994748
>352 Allied aircraft including 7 American.

>>63994999
>345 Soviet
He was seal clubbing slavs

>>63994890
The last 3 years have made it more than clear that it wasn't propaganda
In light of russian performance one might even be able to argue that the germans downplayed events on the eastern front because they would be too unbelievable.

Target rich environment.

>345 Soviet aircraft
well, there it is

my great grandfather was a ww1 ace. never met him, but i always heard from family that he attributed it to: being a better skilled pilot and dumb luck surviving ~12 crash landings

>345 Soviet aircraft

/thread

>>63994577
Said American hand-me-downs were the best fighters the Soviets had in 1942. Poryshkin and many other top Soviet aces scored most of their kills in P-39s.

would get rekt by your average DCS sweatlord

>>63996426
DCS doesn't model G-loading

though in purely technical terms flying in DCS is arguably harder than flying IRL, as you don't get proprioceptive feedback and "aircraft feel". shit like staying coordinated is a challenge in sim whereas IRL it's instinctive

>>63994983
Allies had cheat mode enabled regarding air. Could produce endless airplanes to cover the sun, had endless manpower to man them and had safe grounds to train pilots. Hell, they had fucking carriers in Lake Michigan to train naval aviators in complete safety.

>>63996426
>>63996442
dcs "pro dog fighters" get wrecked by actual military pilots with not many dcs hours

>>63994983
>The German "fly until you die" philosophy was actually hugely destructive.
there was no such philosophy.
Waldmann (134 kills) and Clausen (132) spent late 1942/early 1943 as instructors.
Americans were weak-minded and would lose all hope when one of their aces would die. so all aces were forbidden from ever flying any combat mission again. same for any medal of honor recipient. lots of them didn't even work as instructors but became salesmen for war bonds.

>>63996682
>Americans were weak-minded
>t.yamamoto in 1941

>>63994999
So only 1.98% of his kills weren't vatfricans, gotcha.

>>63996700
look at Vietnam what happens when the US government loses the narrative. Americans get mind-broken and will give up on war in which they won every battle.

>>63996682
>so all aces were forbidden from ever flying any combat mission again. same for any medal of honor recipient.
do we like lying for no reason?

>>63994846
>declare war on the whole civilised world and russia
>"wahhhhh there's too many of you"
lmao

>>63996458
>dcs "pro dog fighters" get wrecked by actual military pilots with not many dcs hours
You experience something similar in AC7 against actual pilots.
I think it's formal training in BFM vs what you pick up on youtube and try and internalise.

>>63996761
Damn, imagine losing so embarrassingly to weak minded Americans. They must have been utter shit.

>>63994890
Just put di caprio in a movie, get joji kara fukunaga to direct it

>>63994541 (OP)
They also gave him the cutest witch.

>>63994890
he has a horrifying chapter too, don't read up on what he witnessed the russians do to german civilians

>>63994541 (OP)
he see goodly

>>63994983
It's not like they had a choice. Pulling out aces to become instructors is a luxury afforded to those who could afford it.

>>63996682
>so all aces were forbidden from ever flying any combat mission again
Then how did so many of them get more than five kills?

>>63994541 (OP)
>What made him so good?
He wasn't, and he was shot down by an American
https://youtu.be/Qd8KxFnMVE4?si=bnC8Z3UlLAkJWRDH

Luftwaffles were worse than American pilots, and failed to achieve a single goal they set out for. For the entirety of the war. They failed from day 1

>>63996761
It was more about South Vietnam being an unpopular corrupt regime not worth saving. However strong your mind is, you can't will someone else into behaving properly.

>>63996947
>32 min of cope from literal who

@63996984
nice bait, but no (You)

>>63994865
>Commie shitskin redditors, vatniks, and JIDF.
Trvthnuke

>>63996856
I haven't opened up my Strike Witches folder in almost a decade.

>>63994553
>just pure luck.

>>63994901
Still commendable to fly with those tactics 1400 times and not commit a lethal error, between that and a postwar jet career Hartmann demonstrated an inhuman level of discipline and survival instinct. A few seconds of inattention was all it took for otherwise exceptional Marseilles to put his spine on a collision course with his own vertical stabilizer.

>>63996882
>don't read up on what he witnessed the russians do to german civilians
rape, torture or cannibalism?

>>63996763
>denying reality and starting petty arguments just because you want to own wehraboos
your brain has been poisoned by the nu-internet

>>63994541 (OP)
Natural ability, slightly superior equipment and mostly facing enemies with no skill.
Not to slight him, that took balls and talent. But the Soviet vs Western kill count has a lot to do with it.

>>63996414
And? They still were shitty oilots in shitty planes

>>63996762
It isn't totally untrue. Bong was grounded and rotated multiple times. He had to actively fight and sometimes defy orders to stay in combat.

>>63996947
As patriotic American this is braindead cope.

>>63998429
>just because you want to own wehraboos
That's a perfectly good reason to start petty arguments.
Also the petty arguments are supported by reality, are you projecting because you're a wehraboo?

>>63998439
>Bong was grounded and rotated multiple times
That's true.
Luftwaffe lost the Battle of Britain at least partially because they used their trainers in combat roles and attrited their pilots so rapidly they had fuck all experienced pilots. While England recovered downed pilots and rotated them so that their rookies had experienced trainers and rookies flew their first flight with some level of skill.

>>63996761
I think you fundamentally misunderstand the American psyche and why it has such a low casualty tolerance. The American mind is inherently mercantile and independent. It holds a certain respect for the nation, but more as an ideal than a political body. The country was founded on revolt against what was deemed a despotic authority, it is very easy for the American mind to dismiss authority and disrespect the government of the nation it at the same time loves. This is why the U.S. Government always needs to push some BS story to support its military ventures, it needs to convince the population the war is justified. And it has to do that because it can't appeal to the mercantile aspect of the American psyche, because while war is fabulously profitable, the way we do it now is only profitable to those at the top, who incur the least risk. They sell and command rather than fight. Long gone are the days of looting being a formalized part of paying your army, an economic incentive for the grunts to win. And yet, sometimes American troops still defy the liberal (in a classic sense not modern left/right shit) bedrock of their nation's founding to engage in looting anyway.

But for the majority, there is little to be gained in going to war. Get your leg blown off for pay and benefits so bad it's only appealing if you've got no other options, fell for the propaganda, or the alternative is prison and frankly some will still take prison. It's not that Americans are inherently cowardly or weak willed, it is that most see little to be gained for them in foreign entanglements. Keep in mind America has few neighbors, neither of whom are particularly militarily threatening. So they have little history of fearing invasion. Combine this with the period of wealth and decadence America has been enjoying (though the former has come to an end for johnny public) and you have a people that really can't be bothered to send their sons to die far from home.

>>63996882
Deserved for the Holocaust

>>63998441
Fuck off nazi faggot

>>63998806
Didn't happen. Hey does the maple syrup urine disease make it hurt when you piss your idf issued combat diaper?

>>63996761
>loses the narrative
Because the narrative and the war sucked. Americans are one of the few people in history to loudly give their own empire shit when it's being retarded.

>>63996833
Dude, Di Caprio is in his 50s now. Hartmann was so twinky it was literally his nickname. He can't pull it off.

>>63998420
Why not all three?

>>63998429
Anon, that's at least as old as the internet. Hell, I'd argue half the reason there even was a Wehraboo menace was because of deep animosity against the Soviets leading to adamant insistence that it was only their numbers that beat the Germans, and so nobody asked many critical questions of the stories German veterans told. That in turn led to pushback against the incompetent Russian meme as the Cold War faded into memory and the slavaboos found their opening, and now we're back to Russians never doing anything capable ever because the Russo-Ukrainian war is the first cause celebre for a new generation of kids and their passion is in it.

>>63994846
Because he's not american and the majority of /k/ is american (I'd hope)

The way I heard it, casualties cause a step decline in military IQ. Everyone goes into a war with professional troops ave experienced officers, but those people die.
So two years into ww2, new pilots coming in can't catch up in terms of skills, training and experience.

And most commercial pilots fly commercial air liners, cargo planes. And so they probably become bomber pilots who get killed by flak. And flak doesn't care how experienced a pilot you are.

There was also a huge amount of elitism within the German forces, particularly the airforce.hartman was from Hitler's generation, politically aligned with the nazi government, not from the pre nazi military industrial system. And Goering was in Hitler's inner circle from the early days and was himself a fighter ace. Hartman was also cute and everyone thought he was cute.

That's the part of elitism the Marxists hate, the elites genuinely are elite. They're better than everyone else.

>>63998429
Try crying a bit more, see if that changes the scoreboard.

>>64002803
>two years into ww2, new pilots coming in can't catch up in terms of skills, training and experience.
At the start of WW2 the Luftwaffe had the years of experience of the Condor Legion to draw on to improve their performance
>And so they probably become bomber pilots who get killed by flak
Fighters were the driving force behind bomber casualties earlier in the war. And yes, experience can help you avoid flak, only a complete midwit believes they just drove straight through it like tards.
>The elites genuinely are elite
Just in the Nazi system they were diluted by genuine spastics noted for their ability to climb and slobber over Hitler's greasy pole. Your takes are utterly fucking retarded.

>>64002854
>only a complete midwit believes they just drove straight through it like tards
tard yourself. you aren't allowed to break formation without your team leader's blessing.

>>64002881
Look up flak avoidance maneuvers, the ratio of losses to flak Vs fighters before 1944, and then your calendar to check when you go back after summer's over.

>>64002830
>Taking pleasure in the suffering of a child
israeli or russian?

>>64004259
Norwegian.

>>64004296
https://youtu.be/sZXrK3f4zbk?si=ZyEOZ56yelzBrN2q

>>64004340
What the fuck is wrong with Prussians, when literally all the other Germanics are such goofy people?

>>63994541 (OP)
Milk, obviously

>>64004539
Vrilk

>>63994554
Tankie cope lol

>>64005942
Stankie tankie
Time to cope
Hang yourself on communal rope

Vindicated Nazi chads
Put your kind into body bags
Everything about you makes me gags
Limp-wristed dysgenic fags

Someone should stomp your commie face
So as to put you in your place
Or smash your kneecaps with a baton
We should have listened to Patton

>Using Russians to boost your kill streaks
Shameful

>>64004532
weaponized autism

>>63994541 (OP)
>Goes to Western Front
>Kill count drops off immediately
Hmmm.

>>63994988
>knows when to quit
>sticks to ez wins in a game where losing = death

sounds like a smart guy

>>63994541 (OP)
how much of those are from overclaiming? I trust Luftwaffe claims more than any other air force in WW2 but for famous figures like this guy and Rudel who were plastered all over newspaper first pages and used for propaganda the figures are probably ludicrously exaggerated.

>>63998454
>itt. Europoor

>>63996763
>slavs
>civilized

>>63994906
>top of ranked
>make smurf account for anonymous sealclubbing purposes
understandable

>>63996458
the level of skill is laughably low, the community is mostly old fucks too, reflexes are shit
I sometimes fly a friend's plane just to boom and zoom boomers in his MiG-21

>>63996682
lol John Basilone says to go fuck yourself.
Just because america had a different doctrine to the germans doesn't mean one or the other was "weak-minded"

>>64005782
Pilk

>>64007763
civilization domesticated Whites and made them weak pussies, being an uncivilized barbarian was always better

>>64010572
Rusniggers and other orientals are weak pussies DESPITE being uncivilized barbarians. Checkmate, libtards

>>64010598
>thinking im a zigger or chink

The west was made through barbarism and violence, Rome, Byzantine, HRE, All European empires etc. They were more violent and ruthless and thats a good thing post WWII where 1945 is the center of life made the west domesticated by luxury and comfort, good thing is that ideology spread worldwide to their enemies and lowered their TFR and made them materialistic

>>64010610
>barbarism
>Rome, Byzantine, HRE, All European empires
All I can hear coming from your uneducated mouth is "Bar bar bar bar bar" lmao.

>>64010655
>>Rome, Byzantine, HRE, All European empires
Rome had slave raids, genocide, was in constant war (none of that is inherently bad) but it knew that it was a living organism of Roman power and had a martial capability. Their violence rates were much higher than we have now (not a bad thing again).

We literally have nothing, no martial culture, low tfr, women in power, managerial class that makes you pay for insurance, bank loans, debt, and a mortgage

>>64010664
>Bar bar bar bar bar bar bar
Oh look it's trying to make sounds like words that it doesn't know the meaning of, like a parrot or a dog that barks on command
Inb4 more
>Bar bar bar bar bar bar

>>64010689
You live in a sterile world and the barbarians you hate are filling your cities and your government is importing them everywhere. A man from 1860 would be considered an extremist today if he saw how castrated Whites are

>>63994683
watch his ass or look for a target of their own

>>64010693
>bar bar bar bar
You don't speak even a word of Latin or Greek, and you can't even form a grammatically correct sentence in your own language. Don't try to lecture anyone about the decline of civilisation. When you work out why I'm mocking you for misusibg the word barbarian, you can come back and apologise.

>>64010708
>You don't speak even a word of Latin or Greek, and you can't even form a grammatically correct sentence in your own language.
I dont need too, the average Taliban member or african bush hunter has a martial spirit closer to ancient greeks and romans than most men in the west
>about the decline of civilisation
It already has declined, spengler was right. When Euros and America(already a mutt nation) talk about their glory days its like a 18th century European talking about ancient Greece. In the UK, France and other western nations Whites are already going to be a minority by 2050-2060

>>64010708
Are you anti-zigger? Good, but how do you think the africans and arabs that were put here by the hundreds of thousands care about a conflict and will not do anyhting about it? That other poster is mostly right

>>64010724
>>64010714
I'm not going to argue about the decline of civilization with people who can't into grammar. No chance, not happening lmao. The ironing is too rich.

>>64010749
Do you think that when youre a minority in your own European nation that it will get better or worse? and do you think somalis and arabs care about fighting ziggers? To be pro-Europe is only to be Pro-White

>>64010664
>Their violence rates were much higher than we have now (not a bad thing again)

>>64010767
It is, that what society is and what made the west. Violent men being able to organize and commit violence for their side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNGW4rfvIuA
the guy who shot him down had great hair for someone almost 90

He was fighting russians, not humans.

>>64010772
You're hyperfocussed on a tiny part of what the West was built on. The Romans encountered plenty of nations and peoples that at least matched them in martial spirit, but none of them were the antecedents to Westernism. That's why it's so funny that you're laser focussed on it, while unironically using the word barbarian to describe Romans and Greeks in the same sentence. Go and get a classical education so you're not a fundamental part of the problem, then come back and we'll talk. I'll be kind and only ask from the first book of Elements.

>>64010772
You're a Zoomer aren't you?

>>64013204
No Millenial who has his own house

>>64011238
>The Romans encountered plenty of nations and peoples that at least matched them in martial spirit, but none of them were the antecedents to Westernism
Because Romans were European, it was a genetic thing but their martial spirit just means they won. Its the same reason why browns cry about Whites 24/7 about they're "evil" but in reality Euros did exactly what they did but just were better at it

Either way most White men today are neutered do-gooders who never would get into trouble

>>63998454
Not gonna read that shit

>>64010772
Yes, anon, I too weep for the days when I could die at the ripe age of 20 in a duel over a perceived slight. Truly a better time.

Oh wait, that shit still happens all the time, except it's the blacks who do it. But I suspect that strikes you differently.

It is also not uncommon for people to get killed over escalating road rage incidents, and as /gif/ will gladly remind you, people, including whites, will kill each other over things as stupid as being obnoxious neighbors.

You clearly feel otherwise, but as for me, I'd rather not get killed over something stupid, and instead live my life with malice toward none and live to a ripe old age, surrounded by children and grandchildren.

>>64010838
Fucke off Nazi faggots

>>64017546
Not only Nazis did the right thing in history, anon