Forget for a second all the scifi fluff and assuming the Bolter actualy works.
What role would it have in a modern battlefield?

Probably the same role as a MK-19?

>>64024482 (OP)
Assuming modern IFVs are AV10 or AV11, it's an extra heavy machine gun that can also do what most autocannons today can do, but man portable.

>>64024650
This. The rocket motor would reduce recoil so you don't need to weight the heavy bolter down with sandbag but it's the same infantry/light vehicle profile we'd use automatic grenade launchers at.

>>64024482 (OP)
Somewhere between a Mk19 and a 25mm autocannon.

.50 cals would be retired

Every vehicle will have a heavy bolter mount

>>64024482 (OP)
grenade launcher with better effective range and better performance against vehicles.

>>64024992
This. It's basically a fancy grenade launcher.

Direct fire machine grenade launcher, depending on the actual range it may replace M2s.

>>64024482 (OP)
arent bolts fat and stubby? wouldn't that make for poor armor penetration?

>>64025016
They work like RPG warheads with explosive behind a shaped cone, some having penetrating tips that are I'm guessing as hard as diamond.

>>64024482 (OP)
>What role would it have in a modern battlefield?
Probably one similar to what the German 3.7 AT gun was actually used for instead of what it was intended for by the troops.
Mobile, accurate, long range grenade dispenser into enemy fortifications and for removal of annoying enemy positions that are fortified but not too heavily or have exploitable gaps in general.

>>64024482 (OP)
Lightweight anti material autocannon, great for anti-IFV and long range interdiction.

>>64024482 (OP)
It would be equivalent to an APHE shell because that's what they are. You can choose a caliber of your choice to make up for a scifi power scaling of your choice. APHE is outdated garbage, WW2 level tech. The bolters rely on a physical penetrator which is completely inferior to a shaped charge by an entire magnitude.

>>64024482 (OP)
The real question is what role does the melta fill

>>64024482 (OP)
It's not a grenade launcher RPG like the meme. It's a gyrojet shotgun with exploding slugs. Wonderful stopping power but against humans it's not really much different than a generic rifle. 40k is a satire, and space marines are roided up troons carrying a 25 pound gun because it was funny to 1980s British military nerds to highlight how mankind had fallen from the sleek lightweight chrome aesthetic of the Dark Ages.
Behold a glorious second generation STC printout of the Dark Ages bolter! This archaeotech superweapon has all the power of le vaunted Asstartes signature weapon in a sleekly efficient 4.5 pound package of gleaming chrome easily fired by any man. How our Ancestors of Yankland M2 devised a weapon impervious to rust is a secret lost to time.

>>64025027
Point to the shaped charge in your diagram, or even one in the lore of your choice, I'm not picky, because you're wrong and just making shit up to try to account for the fact that a bolt round would be hilariously bad at armor penetration in real life.

>>64025132
These were the cutting edge prototypes of the writers' day. Perfect for wargaming.

WW1 = in-setting incompetence
WW2 = the setting default
End of the Cold War = in-setting cutting edge

>>64025132
>It's not a grenade launcher RPG like the meme. It's a gyrojet shotgun with exploding slugs
Explain what you think the difference is.

Gyrojet = rocket
Exploding slug = grenade
pretty fucking simple.

>>64025150
Grenades are for area effects. Bolters are for point targets.

FOR THE UNWASHED MASSES:
Trigger-Thought Activation: only possible if you do not want to.
Edge Profile: quantum-filament, self-dulling unless disbelieved.
Power Cell: memory of a sun. Not the sun. A sun.
Weight: negative to tyrants.
Scabbard: Not found. Presumed alive.

>>64024482 (OP)
It's a nipponese rocket autocannon.

>>64025154
We're talking about roles on the modern battlefield if the weapon were real instead of sci-fi. In-game rules are clearly not relevant.

>>64025154
>anti-personnel RPG warheads don't exist
whut

>>64025166
Yes, that's what I'm saying. AP-HE slugs are useless for area fire like grenades. They simply don't have enough explosive fill.

>>64025140
they are hypersonic round with a gyrojet to make them go fasta and a penetrating tip.
Explosive in the back to shred meatbodies

>>64024482 (OP)
It would be pure garbage because the best it can be is an automatic grenade launcher but with a lot of garbage attached that doesn't actually work in real life. So it would be an overweight AGL firing oversized and heavy yet anemic ammunition.

>>64025154
Krak Grenades are for point targets.

>>64025174
30k powercreep has been a disaster for 40k.

>>64025172
>They simply don't have enough explosive fill.
Go look up how much explosive is in a 40mm grenade. It's not much. It would easily fit in a bolter shell.

>>64025154
>Grenades are for area effects.
See >>64025091
The HE load of a 3.7cm shell was about the same as a grenade.

>>64025174
Nobody ever described bolters as hypersonic. Stop making shit up.

>>64025140
Uh no I'm not gonna do that fag, go look up a better representation for all I care.

>>64025219
>>64025174
>>64025140
>>64025027
Found this.
>>64025195
NTA but I would imagine they're hypersonic as they penetrate "most armor".

>>64025121
Anti vehicle.

>>64025238
They wouldn't penetrate most armor in real life. Probably not even level IV armor.

>>64025305
Fantasy materials and vagueness in stats say they would.

>>64025346
We're talking about real life here. Read the OP.

>>64025238
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnHyEhS1lSM

>>64025349
Yeah, an import from a fictional world into real life.
You're gonna have to take it as it is or it won't be what it is, dummy.

>>64025027
Bolt weapons were specifically made to fight lightly to medium armour infantry and cause as much damage as possible with the least shots, they are often noted to be not as good against actual armor like vehicles and SM power armor(assuming they aren't packing specialised ammo) but they will absolutely slaughter anything less than that.
>>64025238
>most armor
Anon, "most armor" in 40k is the equivalent of a flak jacket or a plate carrier so unlike what >>64025305 says they would absolutely shred any armour that an average infantryman would wear

>>64024482 (OP)
So an automatic Frag12 gun, but the Frag12's are slightly larger and also have a rocket sustainer for greater range?

Probably would be good at what the Frag12 is good at, maybe slightly more due to the slightly increased size.

>>64025346
Even if you imagine the bolt is going really fucking fast that laughably tiny penetrator would do jack shit even if it was made of the heaviest metal known to man.

>>64025380
>Forget for a second all the scifi fluff
Read the OP.

>>64025412
I've seen the "metallic core" referred to as "depleted" so while I doubt the writers really know wtf they're talking about it's probably safe to assume that the core is imagined to be kinda like depleted uranium.
So while the extremely hard (even by fantasy standards) penetrator is small, the metallic core is equivalent to what we use for penetrators in tank ammo, anon.

>>64025430
Finish reading the sentence you subhuman nigger.
>Forget for a second all the scifi fluff and assuming the Bolter actualy works.
> and assuming the Bolter actualy works.
Scifi fluff refers to the obvious fact that it wouldn't be practical in any real war, not the actual substance of the weapon.
In 40k (and similar franchises) "fluff" refers to lore, context and story while "crunch" refers to the actual hard rules and stats of the game.
Fucking nigger trying to tell me about my garbage scifi universe.

>>64025412
It would still shred any infantry or light vehicle it hits since it's the equivalent to a 20mm explosive round but with some sci fi bullshittium propellant and explosive filling

>>64025433
>depleted
It's only ever described as depleted when it's deuterium (lol).
Also he literally said it would do jack shit even if it was the heaviest metal known to man.

>>64025459
That's because anon is retarded and doesn't realize that most armor in real life stops rifle or 50cal ammo but not much more.

>>64025459
>deuterium
>depleted deuterium
wha thte fuck does that even mean

>>64025474
It means that whatever nerd in 1980s bongland that wrote the fluff thought it sounded cool you retard

>>64025450
Descriptions of the bolter killing things and going through armor is clearly fluff and not crunch, what are you even saying here? Crunch is things like Strength and AP, which can't be transferred to to the real world. He also refers to "scifi fluff" and not just "fluff" which means he's using the normal meaning of the word, which is means we're meant to be talking about the bolter with all real world physics applied.

>>64025482
>Descriptions of the bolter killing things and going through armor is clearly fluff and not crunch
Bolters murdering plenty of armored targets on the tabletop is crunch by definition, nigger.
>He also refers to "scifi fluff" and not just "fluff" which means he's using the normal meaning of the word, which is means we're meant to be talking about the bolter with all real world physics applied.
If that were the case it just wouldn't work, ending the discussion.
But he says
>assuming the Bolter actualy works.
And anybody with half a brain would understand it to mean that it works PROPERLY
Guess what, nigger, a properly working bolter penetrates things it's expected to penetrate in the setting.

>>64025474
It means it's hydrogen. It's completely canon the fabled penetrating tip of the bolter is just hydrogen. That's the Adeptus Mechanicus for you. Technological geniuses. And completely in character for them. But >>64025479 is right. It does mean however, your argument is worthless.

>>64025493
No he clearly means we're meant to be discussing a weapon that can fire a rocket propelled APHE shell. Otherwise what would be the point of telling us to forget the scifi fluff? He would be saying instead "Assume for a second all the scifi fluff works"

>>64024482 (OP)
a bolter is basically a 30mm cannon where it's good as a light anti-armor weapon with enough explosives to be anti-personnel except you can stick it anywhere a 40mm grenade launcher or 12.7mm machine gun would fit

>No fancy Power armor, cybernetics nor augmentations
>No fancy special weapons unlike Tau or Spesh murheeens
>Fighting horrors the likes of Orks,necrons and Tyranids as mere humans.

You gotta hand it to the guard for being the coolest faction in the setting.

>>64025546
Or they would be but let's be honest, they're actually just the real horde army in the setting and in game. If anything everybody else should view them much like tyranids, just with lasguns instead of claws, and tanks instead of monstrous creatures.

>>64025496
>It means it's hydrogen.
No it doesn't.
>t's completely canon the fabled penetrating tip of the bolter is just hydrogen
The penetrating tip diamantine.
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Diamantine

>>64024482 (OP)
How big are bolter rounds again? They keep shrinking them with every retcon.

>>64025509
>no he clearly means [...] a rocket propelled APHE shell instead of [what he actually wrote]
I'll assume he meant the bolter when he talked about a bolter, anon.

>>64025561
In a universe where almost everything is dedicated to be the mosf efficient at killing be it Terminator robots that can teleport and are immortal, Space elves that can dodge bullets, Supersoldiers, Literal Orks that can have their head split in half and still fight,...
You get humans fighting against such horrors.
Its pretty impressive the fact they stand their ground at all.

>>64025574
Depends on the type of bolter.

>>64025578
They're literally a human wave. If they had a funny skin color or a third eye or something you'd be calling them the zerg but with guns.

>>64025583
>the imperial army is Russian
I mean
I guess the commissars were a bit of a hint

>>64025027
It's less shaped charge and more APHE.

>>64025570
lol

>>64025574
Human scale is generally fairly small like .50 cal and below. Astartes sized ones are generally considered to be .75 cal and heavy bolters are generally 1.0 cal. I've heard people claim that the astartes HB is larger along with the various vehicle mounted ones like the avenger bolt cannon or Vulcan mega bolter but I don't think it's confirm anywhere in lore

>>64025587
>The orks which can literaly survive having their head cut off their bodies and the Dinobugs that can regenerate are the same thing as the guard
2 of this dont know what fear is.
The guardsmen do, and while still rellying on numbers.
They are just cooler than the others.
And have much more variety in their units.
>>64025583
They do have cool tanks

>>64025172
You don't need that much HE with a decent frag sleeve. Could easily to the prefrag wire coil inside the body

>>64024482 (OP)
It's literally the same thing as that south African MG that uses cut down 20mm vulcann rounds just with an even flatter arc.

>>64024998
>>64024992
No, the warhead isn’t nearly large enough to be compared to grenades. Bolter rounds are meant to penetrate targets and detonate inside of them, they’re more like a gun that shoots miniature bunker busters meant to shoot men wearing miniature bunkers.

If bolters actually worked they could be used as a flat upgrade to any gun shooting conventional ammunition. Bolt pistols and bolt rifles/bolt guns/bolters have the strength of an HMG in universe, the heavy bolter being a step above an HMG. On a modern battlefield the heavy bolter may be a decent anti armor weapon once we do a bullshit conversion from sci-fi armor to inches of steel and bolt pistols and rifles could be used against lightly armored vehicles like 50bmg. Of course these could still serve as antipersonnel weapons like in 40k with the added advantage that even the pistol can defeat cover and any body armor being used by the enemy. The only reason you wouldn’t replace any gun with its bolt equivalent is cost.

>>64025587
>No fancy kevlar, first aid nor night vision
>No fancy special weapons unlike the West
>Fighting horrors the likes of mines, drones and dedovshchina as mere humans.

You gotta hand it to the Russians for being the coolest army on Earth

In a war where almost everything is dedicated to be the most efficient at killing be it stealth planes that can fly and are invisible, drones that can dodge bullets, first-world soldiers, warships that can have their hull split in half and still fight,...
You get humans fighting against such horrors.
Its pretty impressive the fact they stand their ground at all.

>>64025583
If they had funny skin and a third eye they'd be navigators, which you would most definitely wasting on human wave tactics. They're far too valuable, special forces assignments if they even leave the space ship at all.

>>64025609
GW has been channeling the Major from Hellsing for the past few years.

>Very well my friends
>If it is Krieg you want, then it is Krieg you shall have

>>64025632
K, made me chuckle.
There is a stratagem called on my position that does what a Russian Spetnaz did with calling an air strike on his own position.

>Humvee with heavy bolter
>Abrams with heavy bolter and multimelta
>Bradley with twin-linked autocannon and krak missiles
>Abrams with a lascannon and heavy flamers on each sponson
>Abrams with Whirlwind missile launcher
>M113 with lasgun firing ports

>>64025682
They look so chunky compared to the aquillons.

>>64025593
The diamantine tip is pretty well established, somebody was just lazy with the site and retard-anon confused the metallic core with the penetrator.

>>64025626
>The only reason you wouldn’t replace any gun with its bolt equivalent is cost.
Also weight and size of both the weapon and the ammo.

>>64025609
>2 of this dont know what fear is.
Orks know what fear is they just get too distracted by fun to feel it sometimes.
Dinobugs know what fear is too, being near a bug large enough to serve as a proxy to forward the hivemind signal to them just makes that irrelevant.
When left to their own devices they revert back to "natural" behaviours.

>>64025716
Yeah, important to remember that excepting godwyn and similar patterns, these things are made to be used by 8 foot tall power armor wearing transhuman supersoldiers.

>>64025609
>>64025682
Just have Cawl design a mass produced hotshot lasgun and mass produced bolters for tiny regular human hands

Suddenly the daily billion casualties will just be a daily million casualties

>>64025731
Weight and size issues applies to "human" sized bolters too you know.

>>64025672
>special forces assignments
Only on anything of the utmost importance. Navigators are all nobles so “sending” them on a mission is more of a request and their loss would also mean that your ship is stuck in the local system until a replacement can be found. And that also assumes a navigator house would deem to replace your navigator if they are KIA, depending on the circumstances you may have violated a treaty with their house by putting one of their number in harm’s way. There isn’t a court you can take them to either so getting a replacement may require a lot of capital, political favors, and/or ass kissing.

>>64025587
The roles are identical as long as we replace “the state” with “God Emperor” and “counterrevolutionary” with “heretical”.
>>64025632
>every soldier has flak armor at a minimum
>each squad of ten men has a heavy weapon and special weapon or two special weapons depending on doctrine (not including the sergeant’s plasma/bolt pistol and chainsword)
>have medics at platoon level
Maybe the Imperial Guard isn’t like the Russians then.

>>64024482 (OP)
Actually, an AGS-30 with a rocket assisted projectile is interesting.

>>64025731
Imperial Guard has bolt pistols and bolt guns too, they’re just rare and expensive so it’s like a badge of office and not issued to every trooper.
>>64025739
>>64025716
That’s just the heroic scale of the models, the bolt pistols and bolt guns aren’t any bigger than the las pistols and lasguns or autopistols and autoguns that the guard and other humans can carry.

>>64024732
Lmao m2s weren't even retired in 40k

>>64025626
There's actually nothing stopping us from making goofy oversized 20mm pistols and rifles right now.

>>64025609
>1/1000000 Orks survives decapitation
>The rest die to gut wounds, sometimes from regular ass non sci fi knives
>ORKS DA POWER LEVEL CANT DIE NO HEAD BLUHBLUHBLIHBLUH

>>64025855
That’s just the heroic scale of the models
What are you even saying? You're talking like as if lasguns are on a different scale to bolters.

>>64025174
For every author that used the word "hypersonic" to describe bolts there is an author that says bolts are subsonic within thirty yards and have to rocket boost their way up to supersonic speed.

>>64025192
You couldn't fit 1/4th the explosive in a 40mm shell in a bolt round not the least of reasons because the bolt round is smaller AND needs to save room for its own propellant.

>>64025855
>heroic scale
The first trick a 40k fanboy learns is to claim any depiction is sacrosanct when it gives 40k better numbers and some kind of dream illusion of unreliable narration when it makes 40k weaker.

>>64025578
Sorry, necrons are cool space wizards.

>>64025855
Astartes isn't heroic scale, its probably the most realistically proportioned depiction of marines ever made. Standard bolts are a little bigger than 12 gauge shells, so any gun firing super++P 12 gauge from double stack mags is going to be heftier than your basic rifle.

>>64025795
I am aware, if you ain't a rogue trader, the navigator is on that battlefield because they want to be. Same with tech priests.

>>64025960
Psykers are the space wizards, necrons are technomancers.

>>64025965
Marines canonically use much larger bolts then ones intended for usage by normal humans. Normal bolt shells are also not intended for AT roles but instead APHE because Marines fight so many things that simply poking holes in them with a regular bullet doesn't make them die in a timely manner so instead you need to remove large chunks of flesh, while they do have different shell types for AT and other roles.

>>64025578
>Literal Orks
As opposed to what? Figurative Orks?

>>64026038
He literally already said that bolts are a little bigger than 12 gauge shells. So what exactly are you trying to correct or prove?

>>64026052
The point of Marine guns being represented as oversized when compared to humans is expected because they're acknowledged to be oversized compared to humans who get smaller versions of the same thing? Are you incapable of reading a reply chain?

>>64025121
>>64025280
>>64025691
Meltas have terrible range, even ignoring the stupid depictions where they're like fire-shotguns.

>>64025998
Magic is magic. Name games are gay.

>>64026075
Not if your name is Fuegan.

>>64026077
Except necron shenanigans is explicitly not magic in setting, it's the necrons playing jump rope with Clarke's third law. In warhams magic comes from the warp, which necrons are no longer capable of accessing, so they specced hard into tech.

>>64026038
Marines bolts are canonically .75cal. Your nulore is based on a cycle of reddit trying to rationalize the oversized muzzle devices on not-to-scale plastic models.
IG sergeants' bolters and commissars' pistols are also canonically .75cal btw.

>>64026059
Are the human scale bolters actually firing smaller rounds though? I'm pretty sure they're just built slightly lighter to fit normal hands but still fire standard .75 cal bolts.

>>64025155
O Great Pas why did Silk have to die?

>>64026083
>Except
Case in point.

>>64025587
The internal political meta of the Imperium is the same, which is the secret soul ingredient missing from all the nu-lore. From top to bottom, the Imperium cares more about internal security than external security. They can always round up more mobiks to throw at the Dark Eldar and Tau. The true threat is coups from the level down in the bureaucracy.
That's why everything is segregated and the closer to the throne the nicer the gear.

>>64026059
Everybody is well aware that human-sized bolters are smaller than Astartes bolters, but to say they're the same size as las-equivalents is obviously taking it too far. The onus is on you to find a human-sized bolt pistol that's the size of a laspistol. (Lasguns and bolters are completely different shapes but you're welcome to try regardless). Anything else is you just fapping over bolters for no discernible reason.

>>64026104
The nu-lore still has that ingredient, it's not like as if they retconned any of that. It's just that nu-fanboys choose to ignore it, or don't even know enough of the setting to even know it's there. Roboute Guilliman isn't going to reinstate the legions, nor is he going to make the Imperial Guard and/or Navy a combined arms force.

>>64025132
>40k is a satire
Go back to your twitter sphere where this is true, just because that Belgian made Starship Troopers a satire doesn't mean all sci-fi is.

>>64026106
Do you think there would be inuniverse arguments over bolt or laspistol like we still have 45/9 and 1911/m9 arguments?

>you keep your hundred shot sissy pistol junior, 8 shots is all I need.

>>64025737
>Just have Cawl design a mass produced hotshot lasgun and mass produced bolters for tiny regular human hands
The regular lasgun is sufficient for 99% of humanity's foes.

>>64026123
Read the early codexes instead of reddit-age books, nerd. Space Mareens are gay masochist eunuchs who get their balls removed and replaced with a daddy's geno-sperm.
It's part commentary on British elite boarding schools (sodomy is how elites are created), part pisstake on stereotypes of macho soldiers of the 1980s (High T? Couldn't be me!), and part classic nerds-rationalizing-anything.

Space Marines are terror troops acting as the quick reaction force of the Imperium. The boot stomping on anything wholesome which might grow between the cracks of the Terran tithe. That's where the psychopathy comes in as the last vestiges of earlier enlightened times are removed leaving nothing but the troon jackboot. Ironically, history justified the authors take a generation later with the millennial SJWs. Troons are psycho enforcers for the regime because they have nothing else, and if left to their own devices they'll try to coup it.

>>64026123
t. Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau

>>64025737
Sorry, Cawl only cares about Space Marines. Upgrading the Imperial Guard, the force that actually does the majority of the work? How is that meant to sell models? And narratively the guard getting bolter equivalents (either from improved lasguns or mass produced bolters) would lead to an Imperial renaissance, the only thing holding back the guard from stomping xenos and traitor marines is the lasgun.

>>64026091
No, they're explicitly noted as not sharing the same ammo due to the fact Marine bolts would snap human wrists.

>>64026091
Some authors have written that all bolters from human scale pistols to heavy bolters use interchangeable ammunition, and others have written that human scale and SM scale bolters are different but within those two scales they're all the same.
Some have written that SOB have a unique middle scale.
And of course, some have written that every type of bolter fires different ammunition, with difference between SM and human, and pistol to rifle to heavy bolter.

And of course, all of these are variably defended as the "one true Canon"

>>64026187
New models gud
Number go up
PDFs can have lasguns
Nu Militarum will have Cawl-pattern Mk11 hotshot lasguns and mini-bolters

>>64026197
This was originally in-lore propaganda (even in newer books like the Purging of Kadillus where PDF troopers shoot Astartes bolters) which was taken literally by the new fans, and then cycled back into the lore by the next gen of authors.

>>64026122
The IG IS a combined arms force.

>>64026154
>>64025132
>40k is a satire
40k hasn't been satire for over 30 years now. The setting started taking itself seriously in the 90s

>>64026187
The Solar Auxilia couldn't curbstomp the rest of the galaxy and they had volkite weaponry, 18 legions of Space Marines, Malcador the Sigillite and the Emprah himself.

>>64026187
The humble lasgun is the superior standard issue weapon for the IG for so many reasons that you'd have to be completely new to the lore not to be able to name at least 5 immediately.

>>64026228
It amuses me that /k/ jerks itself off over US logistical mastery for good reason, and then ignores how the lasgun is the ultimate conclusion it.

>>64026220
The older the lore the more authoritative. Same concept as a Rogue Trader's warrant. Your weak nulore is simply shortdicked compared to my chad oldlore.

>>64026233
Logistics are gay and boring, so nobody really cares about them. The fixation on it is just an "America, fuck yeah" gut reaction on the level of being proud of US fast food culture.
>>64026234
1. Golden age lore is the most authoritative, clearly.
2. Get retconned, niggy

>>64026228
It can be safely assumed that a Cawl-designed lasgun-replacement would be logistically similar to the lasgun. Of course it wouldn't even take that. Simply getting the Adeptus Mechanicus to take the stick out of their asses and issuing carapace armor as the new standard would elevate the Imperial Guard.

>>64026222
If it wasn't for the rebellion the Imperium would had conquered the entire galaxy. Their weaponry was certainly sufficient back then.

>>64026123
>>64026220
This, but only because 40K is a joke setting. It's not satirizing anything in particular, it's just a mash-up of various pulp scifi settings with a hefty dose of levity.

>>64026197
>Marine bolts would snap human wrists.
I hate noguns fags so much.
So no one has ever actually managed this with a conventional firearm. There are two-bore pistols, there are 600NE pistols, there are 50BMG pistols, none have ever literally broken a bone. Seven barreled simultaneous fire shotguns and 2 bore rifles and 20mm and 950 rifles haven't dislocated or fractured shoulders.

Compounding this is the fact that most of the propellant of a bolter (an extremely heavy gun, and weight reduces felt recoil) would be producing functionally zero recoil, so what, 40% (realistically more like 10%) of the recoil of a space marine bolt shell is like ten elephant guns going off at once, but you scale it down by 30% and suddenly the WMBA all stars can fire on full auto. Withered old 5 foot 9 commissars can one hand these fucking things. So what, what does that mean? Space marine bolters are fifty times stronger than human bolters? They're 500 times stronger than heavy stubbers? Heavy stubbers which have killed space marines in the past? Space Marines who have bounced Bolt shells before?

People just have no appreciation for how wide the gap is between "rifle recoil" and "breaks a man's bone" especially since that gap covers "gun thrown from hands" and "recoil knocks you over flat on your back" before it reaches "breaks bone".

>>64024702
Bolters still have recoil, it's a two stage munition not just a gyrojet.

>>64026358
He literally said it reduces recoil.

>>64026216
Only having ground forces isn't combined arms anon. All aircraft, even those attached to guard regiments, are part of the navy.

>>64026234
The older the lore is the more nonsensical and self-contradictory it is anon wtf are you talking about.

>>64026386
The jet doesn't reduce recoil anon. Adding a rocket motor to a bullet while still having the inital propellant charge goes off doesn't reduce the recoil caused by that bullet.

>>64026427
you need less propellant to achieve the same ballistic performance with a gyrojet retard

>>64026427
Are you ESL? Do you know there's a difference between reduced recoil and no recoil?

>>64025583
Depends on the writer desu.

>>64026253
Imagine Cawl replacing all the Sentinels with this 4th millennium STC. Would it work?

>>64026234
The old lore has 40K take place in a snow globe and had leather wearing biker dwarfs both of which were retconned and rightly so. The dwarfs coming back hasn't been great as they're modelled after modern space suits and NASA's new Lunar Rover.
>>64025583
The conscripts and penal battalions are human waves.

>>64026409
>Only having ground forces isn't combined arms anon
Artillery + tanks and infantry is already combined arms, anon.

>>64026542
They're separated at the regimental level. And a regiment can be anywhere from one to one bajillion men. That's not combined arms at all.

>>64026550
>They're separated at the regimental level
Depends on the regiment.
>And a regiment can be anywhere from one to one bajillion men
Depends on the regiment
> That's not combined arms at all.
Depends on the regiment.
>>64026409
>All aircraft, even those attached to guard regiments, are part of the navy.
Depends on the regiment.

Filthy casual.

>>64026558
Oh, you're just trolling. Carry on then.

>>64026482
Those are more equivalent to knights than sentinels.

>>64026427
It reduces recoil by dint of allowing you to reduce the initial propellant charge without compromising on ballistic performance.

>>64026211
>PDFs can have lasguns

Was this not always the case? Or only for richer planets like Necromunda?

>>64026568
>don't know the basics of the setting
>make dumb claims
>be wrong
>get corrected
>"hurr durr yooz troolin"
lmao

The Tahnelian Airbourne have tons of valkyries and vultures and their own specialized light aircraft.
You're generalizing based on the Elysian Drop Troops.

>>64026253
For 98% of what the guard does(putting down rebellions before they make it off world)it's existing equipment is more than enough. Look at Space Marine 2, one guard regiment is managing to hold three planets more or less by themselves, with the ultras arrival enabling them to push the lines back by taking pressure off them with behind the lines raids and decapitation strikes.

>>64026512
That old lore was from before 40k gained steam and replaced Fantasy as the flagship product, Yes?

>>64025737
>Suddenly the daily billion casualties will just be a daily million casualties
Then everyone would starve, anon. You can't make corpse starch without corpses and now you have more mouths to feed.

>>64026687
Just because 98% of the time the guard is putting down rebellions doesn't mean that other 2% isn't vitally important. That 2% is a big deal, often comprising the most vital worlds in a sector and drawing disproportionately huge amounts of resources. The Imperium is slowly bleeding out (or quickly bleeding out in the new lore). In any case, is putting down rebellions faster really a bad thing? Just because something is adequate. It shouldn't be improved? In Space Marine 2, if that guard regiment was better they wouldn't just be barely holding the line, they'll have finished the job by themselves.

>>64026765
>The Imperium is slowly bleeding out (or quickly bleeding out in the new lore).
Wrong.

>>64025027
Proof marking means the components have been tested fired with an over pressure load and shown no signs of damage. I guess that might be the case here, but I would wager whoever drew that doesn't understand that concept.

>>64026815
>Proof marking means the components have been tested fired with an over pressure load and shown no signs of damage.
Could just be a visual inspection or scan.

>>64026826
That would be an inspection mark, not a proof mark.

>>64026725
Wrong, you now turn Hive worlds into Agri worlds.

>>64026872
>turn Hive worlds into Agri worlds
Anon, after God-Emperor knows how many millennia of industrial pollution not even Kudzu would grow there.

>>64026187
Cawl can make as many super special lasguns as he wants but he isn't going to make nearly enough to arm even a percentage of all the guardsmen the imperium has

>>64026907
He can

Mechanicus and Forgeworld planets are flexible

>>64026568
It's not trolling

IG regiments are intentionally ignored into fielding only one troop type to minimise risks in case of rebellion.
However this isn't the universal rule as some especially trusted regiments like the cadians and Kriegers are allowed to field combined arms regiments

>>64026919
No he really can't.

The guard fields at minimum a trillion men under arms, each having to be equipped and supplied.


Cawl spent 10k years making a few hundred SM+ all their new shit.
Also half the mechanics hates him and would actively sabotage anything he tries to do.


Also also, spending the time and resources trying to design a superior lasgun is meaningless when the imps have something that works decently enough already

>>64026922
>However this isn't the universal rule as some especially trusted regiments like the cadians and Kriegers are allowed to field combined arms regiments
no they're not
they just work effectively in cohesion you might think they're not separated
there's still a cadian/krieg infantry, armour, logistics and aerial senior officer out there

>>64026935
If Girlyman decrees that the IG will adopt new weapons the priests of Mars will cuck out and accept his command

>>64026958
>Despite this, it is possible to classify Imperial Guard regiments into different types by the nature of their equipment, training or battlefield role. An important point of similarity between regiments is also present in their organisation; each different regiment type is divided in a fairly similar manner within that classification.

>Except in rare circumstances or within certain isolated sectors, true combined arms regiments are not normally raised within the Imperial Guard. Infantry Regiments are unlikely to contain much or any heavy artillery, while tank regiments contain little to no infantry. This was intentionally designed, as it prevents Traitor Regiments from having full arsenals should they turn against the Emperor.

>>64026975
>If
Except guiliman isn't stupid enough to try to do something so logistically ludicrous

M2s will go the way of M1919

Every vehicle mounted weapon will have a heavy bolter instead

I can see other vehicles with neo-volkite (death ray) or melta (long beam or laser shotty) weapons

>>64027011
>every vehicle


How little you know anon

>>64026958
lmao arrogant nigger getting blown the fuck >>64026996 OUT

>>64027047
Soulless, bring the Predator back

For me it's pulse weapons.

>>64025027
Astartes use .998 bolt rounds. I feel like these would be almost like autocannons.

>>64026815
It could just mean the case itself was proof fired to ensure it can stand up to the pressure.
Not that's necessarily a good idea : KAC's Knight Reed once let out in an interview that if they didn't proof their bolts they could get twice the life out of them.

>>64024482 (OP)
Holy fuck stop spamming keep this retard shit on >>>/toy/

>>64027514
Space Marines use .7 and .75 in rifles and pistols, .998 (and smaller than the smallest .998 you have there) in heavy weapons, humans use .5 - this is extremely well established over multiple decades of lore and books. The picture you just posted was made up by someone on Space Battles to try to win an argument, and I hate all of you 40k retards for slurping shit like that up.

>>64027523
>he doesn't know about the daily warzigger thread
give the r*ssans this, it's all they have

>>64026085
Nah I'm a big time fluff nerd and he's right. Quite a few of the better books going years and years back talk about astartes standard bolt rounds to be significantly larger than say the bolts in a commissars pistol or elite guardsmans bolter.

>>64026187
The guard does its work well. There are somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 trillion deployable guardsman, they just ant swarm things and all point their lasers the same way.
They only ones this doesn't work for are the tyranids kinda.
There lore of immensely powerful and armored enemies being felled because 15000 guardsmen pointed all their las rifles at the same thing.

>>64027467
>Emperor's Children finally get their own codex like the rest of the cult legions
>gee dubs elected not to give them any tanks at all, save for the land raider
>start to wonder whether the old predator/vindicator kits were being phased out
>nope, World Eaters and Death Guard still have access to predators and Thousand Sons get both

>>64025192
>>64025194
>The HE load of a 3.7cm shell was about the same as a grenade.
I hate these threads because of 40k nogunz posters like this so much. They're so desperate to prove how strong 40k shit is (and it's always human shit from the setting) that they just spout obnoxiously, infuriatingly, insultingly absurd nonsense and lies nonstop to do it.

The 3.7cm catridge you describe (Sprenggranate Patronen 40) was 35cm long and weighed 1.315kg. The projectile itself was 12.7cm long and weighed 665g with a HE filler of 45 grams. An M67 frag grenade has 180 grams of explosive filler.

40mm HV M383 HE rounds are 11.2cm long and weigh 340g. The projectile is 5.3cm long, weighs 230g and has a filler weight of 55g. There's so little room for propellant that it's subsonic (800fps mv).

Space mehrine bolters are .75 cal, which is 19.05mm. 20mm HEI cannon rounds are around 200-300g complete and 16-20cm long, with projectiles 10cm long, and they only have about 5-10g of filler.

So Spesch Marine bolter rounds are 19.05x76.2mm with an overall length of around 90mm. The 76.2mm bolter bullets are 3/4 the length of 20mm HE, but they sacrifice about 1/4 of their internal volume to propellant which IRL rounds don't do. Effectively, the space available in the projectile for filler is less than half what is in an IRL 20mm HE round, and they also have far less overall propellant volume. Ie. The rounds are probably subsonic, which is supported by their bullet geometry, which is a simple elliptical design and even has a flat base. The bursting charge on bolter rounds is much closer to a cherry bomb than a grenade. 2-5g at most. Like everything in this setting, it seems powerful because you are all too stupid to vibe check it.

I wish that you losers would stop posting 40k shit on /k/. It's the dumbest franchise and none of you can accept that everything in it is factually underpowered trash. Picrel: Here's your space marine bolter round.

>>64027550
Because commisars and shit use .50 boltguns, while space marines use .70 or .75. The guy who you're replying to who said they're .75 was even replying to a guy who said that space marine bolters are bigger than .75 while posting a literal fucking picture from GW that says they're .75. 40k losers are the absolute fucking worst, I swear to god.

>>64027587
Dick tank
Goon tank

>>64027673
thanks for setting the right
the worst thing to happen to 40k is becoming popular and now it's being flooded with retards that feel like they have to prove they ate just as much a fan as the venerable fa/tg/uy that's been around since the 90ies.
forgetting the most important part of it all, it's fantasy

I think the Catachan Devils are cool :3

>>64024482 (OP)
Here you go OP, it would be this - but potentially possibly a little bit useful, sometimes.

>>64027673
Anon, bolter projos are in their unfired state flat-base, but since they are RAP projos, the rocket exhaust serves as a VERY efficient boattail, similar to a base-bleed projo, but with in-flight thrust. The biggest indication that bolter rounds are subsonic in my opinion is their ogive length of ~1.5 calibers, coupled to that exhaust boattail : if you look at 9x39 projos, which are the most optimized for subsonic flight since 9x39 is a sub only caliber, they use that same combo of very long boattail under a relatively short ogive.

>>64026922
Cawl doesn't personally make each and every Primaris Marine himself and their equipment, you know.

>>64027673
But it has the power of the Emperor you dumb faggot

>>64027679
Are you actually autistic? Why sit here and try to prove that shit is unrealistic in a setting somewhere between scifi and fantasy, with magic and demons and thoughts becoming reality? Why even enter the thread

>>64027673
>much closer to a cherry bomb than a grenade
Why are you assuming their explosives are materially and functionally exactly the same as IRL ones? They literally use imaginary space resources for the construction of their stuff

>>64027749
Well, he's refuting an argument based on real life so of course he's going to use real life facts. I don't see what the complaint is here, unless you're just salty about getting refuted.

>>64027724
That thing is useful, though : what the DMR is for the AR, this is for the UBGL. It gives you the capability to engage armored or in defilade point targets up to a kilometer, and can put a grenade in a window or door up to 600m, things even 40x51mm MV GLs can't do. The downside is that it's a platoon level weapon like the M240.

I hate 40k fans so much it's fucking unreal. "Bro it's totally like a 30x249mmR" meanwhile it's smaller than 50BMG.

>>64027771
Oh, let's see how big it is compared to smaller 30mm then.......... Oh it's fucking dwarfed even by stuff like 30x173mm......

God I hate 40k people who come here and try to say this shit so much.....

>>64027771
'It kills cunts good' is the type of 40k fans you should really talk to

>>64026234
Righteous.

>>64027587
Individual codices for SM chapters (loyalist or heretic) were an abject fucking mistake.

>>64026696
Eh. The snow globe is 40k and fantasy giving each other a mutual cheeky nod. It's probably still "Canon" as much as it ever was.

Lore cannot enter your game without your consent.

>>64025855
>The bolter that fires 20mm rounds is not going to be bigger than you average rifle, trust me bro

>>64026220

nah, it's still a pisstake m8
it just has an extra layer of irony to appeal to burgers>>64026222

>>64026413

NTA. but this is by design and a good thing

>>64026197
Well technically bolters are closer to gyrojets than actual guns, so the recoil should be minimal.
But if you're going to ignore that piece of lore, I can respect that, since they have never been depicted as such.

>>64027673
TL;DR also it's magic super explosive filler so your point is invalid :^)

>>64024732
>.50 cal will be retired
Lol lmao

>>64024732

>>64025583
>zerg but with guns
Funny because the Zerg was supposed to be tyrannid and Terran marines were supposed to be space marine before GW cut the deal with blizzard.

>>64024732
Sadly not even Marines have pintle mounted bolters anymore :(

>>64025737
>Just have Cawl design a mass produced hotshot lasgun and mass produced bolters for tiny regular human hands
You can't just mass issue expensive weapons, retard. That just like asking the us military to equip everyone with KAC SR-16.

>>64027705
I hate the mac-10 they issue to them. It just look weak and puny compared to other imperial small arms.

They even gave one to sly marbo and it just look ugly and unbefitting of his legendary status and bulky looks.

>>64027673
>They're so desperate to prove how strong 40k shit is (and it's always human shit from the setting) that they just spout obnoxiously, infuriatingly, insultingly absurd nonsense and lies nonstop to do it.
>They're so desperate to prove how strong 40k shit is
You know, that wasn't the intention at all and you're clearly a complete autist who missed the point completely because he's butthurt about past conversations, but at least your autistic rant was interesting.

>>64027759
>Well, he's refuting an argument based on real life so of course he's going to use real life facts
But he sperged out about
>muh 40k so powerful
So he clearly isn't.

>>64027771
>>64027776
>let's see how big it is compared to
Who cares when we have the lore describing it as more powerful? lmao
>buut noooooo it has to be weak because it's to tiny :((((
Nigger which explosives do you think they use? Their entire economy runs on magic space superoil

>>64027771
>>64027776
You didn't even get the size right, buddy.
>Seldom deployed by other Imperial military arms, the 0.998 calibre Boltgun is standard to the Adeptus Astartes.

>>64028175
Actually just wrong lol. What a loser you are.

>>64028208
Lexicanum disagrees.

>>64028211
It's a misinterpretation by someone as enthusiastic as you to prove how cool space marines are (ie another fucking retard lol), erroneously mentioned once. That's the caliber for heavy bolters. On that page it says five times that 0.75 is the standard modern space marine caliber, and that .70 was their 30k caliber, and that 0.60 was used by traitor legions during the heresy. Kill yourself.

>>64028230
>as enthusiastic as you to prove
Projection based on your eternal butthurt over anonymous conversations you had on 4chan.
Likely years ago.
Did a 40k fan fuck your crush or something?

>>64028251
You have no idea how annoying you and your ilk are. Fuck off to >>>/toys/ or >>>/tg/, jesus this shit has no place on /k/.

>>64028257
>64028257
>anon entered a thread about a topic he hates, read stuff he didn't like and chose to interact with people he doesn't enjoy interacting with
>You have no idea how annoying you and your ilk are.

>64028273
>anon posts a thread to talk about his toys on the weapons board and sulks when he gets called out for it

>anon is such a little bitch he's scared of replying to me directly
lmao
That aside.
1. I'm not OP.
2. OP is firmly within board culture and tradition, little tourist.

Nah just didn't want to give you any dopamine. I've been telling airshitters and fa/tg/guys to fuck off from here for a very, very long time.

>>64028291
So what you're saying is that you admit to offtopic posting and shitting up the board for years, anon?

>>64028297
My posts in this thread have been on topic as fuck. I attack the homoerotic power fantasies of the manchildren that come here to rant about how cool and strong their united space marines and imperium guarders are by taking their toys seriously as weapons, so that I can point out how pathetic, weak and silly they are.

>>64028306

>>64028347

>>64026091
>>64026210
Marines have (more or less) standard equipment. Imperial Guard equipment comes in a large variety of patterns depending on the regiment's homeworld and where their equipment is manufactured. Just about the only thing standardized across the entire Guard is lasgun power packs – not lasguns themselves, just the power packs – and even those come in a few different sizes, depending on the application.

>>64026669
>Was this not always the case? Or only for richer planets like Necromunda?
Most PDF forces are the most cannon fodder of cannon fodder and have to make do with conventional firearms (which are cheaper and make more sense when you don't have to worry about interstellar logistics or performing more than a delaying action against any force tougher than local rebels).

>>64026669
It depends on the world. Civilized worlds are happy using lasguns. Lasguns are effectively as powerful as autoguns, but with a smaller logistical footprint, which is a smaller problem for PDF. It makes sense that a PDF would prefer autoguns, unless one of their industries is lasguns, in which case they'll use lasguns.

>>64026595
>>64026482
A war hound titan would be a particularly large assault class mech but not out of the bounds the class. It's basically just a King Crab with more health.

>>64027947
god that was such a fucking dumb thing in the lore.

>old Lore
Marines have the standard bolter round
used in following weapons
Bolt pistol
Bolter
Storm bolter
Gets the job done

>Nu lore
Marines now use 8+ "standard issue" rounds
Bolt pistol
Bolter
Storm bolter still share the same round

Each model of Bolt carbine uses a different round (~3)
Each model of Bolt rifle uses a different round (~3)
Heavy bolt pistols use their own round
Heavy Bolt Rifle uses its own round
Now use heavy stubbers for some reason.
Assault bolter uses it's own round

How the fuck is Guilliman a "Genius" when he went from a single round for resupplying, to making every fucking chapter forced to have 11 different calibers of standard issue weapons.

>>64030639
>Each model of Bolt carbine uses a different round (~3)
>Each model of Bolt rifle uses a different round (~3)
>Heavy bolt pistols use their own round
>Heavy Bolt Rifle uses its own round
Source for all of this?
>Assault bolter uses it's own round
The assault bolter is just a one-handable heavy bolter and uses the same round.

>>64030639
If the IOM is Byzantium, that would make Guilliman Justinian the Great and Cawl would be a Belisarius figure; and you know what Procopius wrote about them. It would be just the sort of thing an oldschool writer would slip in.

tl;dr he's not a genius, that's the official Imperial propaganda line.

>>64030961
lmgtfy

>>64030639
>Guilliman gets resurrected by Archmagos Cawl
>suddenly the Imperium adopts the most wasteful military-industrial complex bullshit imaginable, making them even more dependent on the AdMech
What a shock!

>>64031194
I did google it, and nothing I've read implies any of the aforementioned weapons use anything other than the standard .75 cal bolt.

>>64026040
Diggas?

>>64031295
The Imperium was always dependent on the Admech.

The Emprah wouldn't leave the Solar system without the Admech's industrial output.

>>64031011
>Cawl would be a Belisarius figure

Well, considering that's his first name...

>>64031011
What are you even talking about? Cawl is not a general, in fact is the very opposite. I know it might seem like that if you read this thread but don't know anything about the setting.

>>64032291
Read the Secret History anon. You'll learn more about the setting than you wanted to know. In 50k Guilliman will be remembered as a Vandire figure. It's happened once before with the War of the False Primarch.

>>64033174
Can you make me a tinfoil hat like yours?

>>64032291
Have you even read the first Dark Imperium? That anon is right.
(Don't read the others)