Thread 64060525

>banned his troops from using SMGs, said it was only a police weapon
>denounced combined arms/mechanized warfare
>sabotaged the production of the KV-1, T-34
>what the hell do we need rocket artillery for?
>the main thing is the horse-drawn gun
>got btfo'd by the Poles and the Germans before getting replaced

>>64060525 (OP)
Wasn't he also the one who got the guy designing recoilless weapons executed?

>>64060536
No, he was based.

Sounda like a hero to me

>>64060525 (OP)
WW1 had countless retarded generals on both the Russian side and the Austro-Hungarian side.
Completely retarded nepo babies who couldn't have gotten into their positions through merit. The French had an inept general or two, the British had that one guy who was a complete fucking moron and lost like 40k men
I remember their deeds but not their names.

>>64060956
>400*k - Sir Douglas Haig, British army FM/moron
Pretty hard to beat that.

>>64060985
>be such a bad commander they name after you an entire convention on laws of war and war crimes
I will never forgive him for outlawing fun

>>64060956
>>64060985
Haig was perfectly competent.

>>64061066
They don't call him the Butcher of the Somme for nothing

>>64060956
And then there's Luigi Cadorna.

>>64061077
People also still say that the Germans would have won WW2 if they just build nothing but Stugs or that euros brought smallpox blankets to the Americas to kill of he natives.
Retards do retard things and repeat dumb shit they've heard all the time. Especially if it supports some stupid story they ascribe to.
Him getting called that doesn't mean much.
The french shifting their divisions away and forcing the, relatively green, british supporting force to play the major role had a larger impact than Haig's skill or lack thereof.
It's not like the death toll for the British was worse than what is commonly claimed for towton.

"Again"
t. Luigi

>>64062172
>>64061106
I just found out this fucking brainlet used decimation against his own troops when units did not perform in battle. yes the ancient roman act of decimation by killing every tenth soldier as punishment.

>>64062172
The Alpine Front was a real meeting of the minds.

>>64062367
>"How to get your ass kicked by a nation of numerically inferior and similarly poorly equipped Serbians. And, also Russia right after."

Didn't he ban landmines too?

>>64062367
>pushes for war with serbia
>finally gets it
>had no plan
>bungles it horribly
I wish we could have had a picture of exactly what this retard was thinking

>>64062367
>If Franz Ferdinand was still alive he'd have me shot.

>>64062367
Only minds so elevated could imagine fighting in such altitude.

>>64061066
Haig loved the blood of Englishmen even more than the Hun, simple as

>>64062336
>Based
>Beyond
>Belief

>>64062532
Reading Haig's battles on Wikipedia it looks like all of his blunders were caused by him being too much of a pompous asshole to listen to French generals who were in the right

>>64062550
He just loved the idea of the lads kicking around a footy after a HUGE artillery barrage. The barrages did fuck all against hun defenses, and this was not unknown at the time.

>>64062550
>all of his blunders were caused by him being too much of a pompous asshole to listen to French generals who were in the righ
Can you give an example?

>>64060525 (OP)
>what's that
>the village speaks vietnamese?
>must be VC
>burn it to the ground
why do retards like this end up in charge of counterinsurgency every fucking time?

>>64062707
wdym? If there are no places where people speak vietnamese there are also no places with VC. It just works.

>>64062707
Genocide works when you actually commit.

>>64062826
i wonder if
>we didnt commit genocide, we half-arsed it
argument holds up in court

>>64062845
Nah that's in the same realm as
>I didn't commit murder I merely tried and failed
The intent is the same, you're just a jobber

>>64062336
Sounds like a morale issue. Now, you and nine others draw straws. I'll be in the brothel, report back when at least one of you is dead.

>>64062878
And don't forget, tomorrow we try again.
Viva Italia~
>Drives away to the nearest brothel

>>64062845
didnt work for serbs

>>64062367
my favorite Shitalian story is Giulio Douhet. He literally invented strategic bombing as a concept during the Italio-Turkish War, then got fired from the Italian Air Service because he paid Caproni to develop bombers for him. Then once WW1 broke out and Italy defected to the Entente, Douhet got arrested and imprisoned for conduct unbecoming of an officer for trying to create plans for strategic bombing raids into Austria and Dalmatia.

>>64061039
Field Marshal Haig, the British General, and The Hague or Den Haag, the City in the Netherlands are completely and utterly unrelated.

>>64063138
this nigga was retarded as hell though
>we will bomb their cities and they will surrender

>>64063323
Its the same as Gatling or Maxim, "If I just do this super horrible thing, no one will ever fight another war!!"
The only one of those that has ever worked was nukes, because they can fuck you, yourself, over in addition to the other guy.

>>64063138
A visionary.

>>64061243
>euros brought smallpox blankets to the Americas to kill of he natives

No , that was only the English , they did do that shit .

>>64062450
For the genocidal war crimes against the Serbians or the desperation to exterminate his own men through the most retarded possible tactics ? .

>>64062707
>the US being led by subhuman retards and unable to win a war without multiple allies or the enemy's political class betraying their country

Wow , how uncommon .

>>64063323
Well no one tried that before so it's not like he was proven wrong in his lifetime

>>64063837
For his incompetence in leading his men, he was a field marshal and his losses were unacceptable

>>64061106
>>64062172
>>64062336
>>64062997
>>64063138
Tbf to the Italians, they did have competent generals, it's just that they were appointed to high command command only after/because their predecessors were givent the opportunity to prove their incompetence, much to the misfortune of the soldiers
But this seems to have been a general rule for numerous countries during a lot of wars. In France, Pétain and Foch rose to prominence only because Joffre and Nivelle fucked up big time
Britain seems to have been an exception, as Haig stayed in charge throughout the war despite his costly failures

>>64064116
For the Italians, the providential man that would salvage the situation was named Armando Diaz. This guy was is criminally underrated, he was the anti-Cadorna
>Decentralizes the chain of command and relies on junior officers who have been promoted and have a better understanding of new methods of warfare (he himself was 11 years younger than Cadorna and has a direct experience of trench warfare)
>Improves the training of Italian infantry
>Promotes the provision of more modern weaponry (submachine guns, flamethrowers, hand grenades)
>Supports the design of the first Italian tanks, the Fiat 2000 and 3000 (however, they will arrive too late to participate in the final victory)
>Strengthens the air force, enabling it to gain air superiority
>Improves artillery training and doctrine
>Reorganizes and strengthens the elite Arditi Corps
>Improves morale by abandoning decimations, increasing pay, and extending the duration and frequency of leave
>Knows the importance for the army to maintain good relations with the political authorities and acts accordingly
He managed to stop the Austro-Hungarian advance in the battles of Monte Grappa, led the Italian forces to a major victory at the Second Battle of the Piave River and a few months later, he achieved a decisive victory in the Battle of Vittorio Veneto, which ended the war on the Italian Front. General Diaz is celebrated today as one of the greatest generals of the war

>>64064127
If they had put him in charge from the start or had 1 or 2 more like him , Italy would have retaken Dalmatia .

>>64064116
>Haig
>incompetent

>>64062172
Luigi gets an insane amount of shit (absolutely right), but I will never understand why he wasn't removed sooner. Doesn't that speak to an even greater failure of those above him just let this retard do what he did so many fucking times?

I struggle to think of a more turbo giga brained retard general in history, and I think the only instance might be Themistocles in that he pulled off a brilliant plan, and immediately decided to sabotage himself for reasons that to this day no one understands, but then managed to trick the Persians into thinking he was on their side the whole time? I think that he embodied chaos as a force. How do you fucking talk your way into a governorship in the Persian Empire after orchestrating one of their most humiliating losses? How?

>>64063842
Well that sounds like Russia, Dar Al Islam... not China, they can't win even with those advantages.

>>64064127
This guy deserves to be praised as much as Cadorna deserves to be hated, and his victories should be as celebrated as the battles on the Isonzo and Caporetto deserve to be ridiculed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06Zo6-3g7qQ
>>64064137
Maybe, probably, but sadly for the Italians, Cadorna was allowed to stay for far too long

>>64062408
>implying
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Redl

>>64064163
>Luigi gets an insane amount of shit (absolutely right), but I will never understand why he wasn't removed sooner.
I agree, it's incomprehensible to me too
Something that makes him look even worse is the fact that his father, Raffaele Cadorna, led successful operations against the Austrians and captured Rome during the unification of Italy and his son, Raffaele Cadorna Jr., was a commander of the Italian Resistance against German occupying forces in northern Italy during WW2
Talent seems to jump a generation sometimes

>>64064127
>Supports the design of the first Italian tanks, the Fiat 2000 and 3000 (however, they will arrive too late to participate in the final victory)
Oh, what could have been
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuNFOIPts9A

>>64064217
what the fuck lmao I literally spat out my drink laughing at his bio summary. How was Austria-Hungary so fucking awful at literally everything they did during the war?

Hate this retard.

>>64062652
Just for your information i ignored your reply because arguing would have been hard and you might have been right and i dont like being proven wrong

>>64065107
There's more to being a general than mere ability for leading forces to victory in battle - successfully training and outfitting one's soldiers for example, as Phillip did for Alexander. MacArthur rose to the top and stuck there because he had a strong complement of secondary skills, namely an uncommon eye for how to align his campaigns with overarching political goals, and the ability to win earnest respect from dissimilar cultures. It served him well over a career of subduing and reorganizing rebellious populations and rose to brilliance with his occupation of Japan.
A record certainly verging on "model of a Modern Major-General" territory, but the "Gaijin Shogun" compares quite favorably to America's subsequent nation-building idiots, who fully deserve the label.

>>64065437
What did Japan think of him in the Phillipines?

>>64063323
>>64063364
In fairness, they operated on historical info of European military affairs. And, prior to boogaloo #1, people tended to surrender if you started turning their city into rubble. After the 30 Years War, razing a city and massacring its inhabitants fell out of fashion.

>>64064163
>How do you fucking talk your way into a governorship in the Persian Empire after orchestrating one of their most humiliating losses? How?
Legendary 5D chess player, that one.

>>64065437
His particular skills were wasted in a command position, and his histrionics worked against him as a fighting general.
He should've been appointed almost exclusively to military overseer positions. He demonstrated genuine acumen for those.

>>64062172
>When I say jump, you say "how high?"

>>64064163
Themistocles? Alcibiades is even better:
> Advocates Athens' Syracuse Expedition
> Escapes political persecution for vandalizing pic related and defects to the Spartans.
> Defeats the Syracuse Expedition, dooming nearly all the Athenians to death on campaign or captivity.
> Seduces the Spartan Queen, gets chased out to Persia. Advises Persia to work against Sparta to prolong the war for Persia's benefit.
> Returns to Athens, wins several victories, but his fleet suffers a reverse at Notium when he left his second-in-command unsupervised.
> Self-exiled to Persia again
Mark Herman designed a solitaire board game of the Peloponnesian War where if the player does too well, he is forced to switch sides, just like Alcibiades.

>>64064285
The Austrian Hapsburgs truly are the Washington Generals of military history.

>>64064285
I sat through Indy Niedell explaining the whole thing in disbelief. How did they fuck up literally every battle? How did a small nation of Serbs kick their shit in so thoroughly? How did the similarly bad Russians manage to destroy them?
Germany carried the alliance, the ottomans and austro-hungarians were defeated completely, and large parts of the alliance got swallowed up by the USSR after the war.

>>64065517
>When I say jump, you say
>HEEEERE WE GO!

>>64065107
Patton was much worse

>>64065573
Hodges was much worse than Patton for his bungling of the Hurtgen Forest.

>>64065107
He was better as a politician than as a general, the Augustus of our time

>>64063138
His one fault was apparently that his poetry sucked.

>>64065517
At least Luigi gets laid, unlike Mario

>>64063323
That literally was what everybody believed until German Flak and fighters forced them to think of a better way.

>>64065516
I agree, but humanity has ever struggled to accurately and timely position qualified individuals where they can achieve the most good. Despite some errors, George Marshall was about as prescient a Chief of Staff as one could ask (like appointing Eisenhower - tard-wrangler extraordinaire - to supreme commander Europe)

>>64065199
>arguing would have been hard and you might have been right
Most relatable post of this year.

>>64065659
Didn’t stop the Air Force and RAF to turn all german cities into rootless rubble lmao

>President Davis sez I'm doing a good job guys
>*jobs hard*
Being in the Army of Tennessee must have been suffering under this guy.

>>64064223
It was political incompetence at that point but with his father's reputation combined with his pre-ww1 record combined with retarded monarchy its understandable while Cadorna was given so many mulligans.
The king/gov should have *promoted* him out of army command and into politics, or a ceremonial position, or a newly created position not in charge of troops

>>64065871
Civil war was full of jobers, few good army commanders.

Sherman, Johnston (West), Lee (not the Napoleonic genius he's supposed to be ), Longstreet, Rosecrans (despite the Chikamauga blunder)

>>64065573
Patton is overrated, but he had some strong points. Dugout Doug let the Japanese take the Philippines from his incompetence. Instead of following the decades long plan, which was fall back to Bataan and wait for reinforcements, the genius decided to try to defend all of the Philippines and distributed all of their supplies with them and when the Japanese attack all of his troops had to fall back to Bataan and leave all of their supplies behind. They could have literally lasted years if their supplies was just left in Bataan.

>the enemy is attacking at Sedan
>let's them build a bridgehead

>our forts are holding up the enemy
>let's abandon our forts and leave all our heavy guns behind

So was he just that incompetent or a German plant?

>>64066576
>So was he just that incompetent or a German plant?
Worse, he was French.

>>64066546
seems like he grossly underestimated the japanese through racism. It can happen.

>>64065871
>Fights with everyone
>even himself

>>64065199
wtf based

>>64064137
Like a lot of other European militaries at the time, Cadorna obtained and remained in his position out of nepotism. His dad led the successful Capture of Rome.

>>64065107
A lot of people aren't aware that he was on the verge of getting fired in 1945. Truman was incensed that MacArthur went straight to Japan after the surrender instead of returning to Washington for a debrief. Hirohito's inner circle wanted to get rid of him too. They were pressuring him to step down in order to show some contrition for losing the war. When the two met, they were able to lend each other the legitimacy necessary to both keep their jobs, which played a big part in Hirohito and the rest of the Imperial House avoiding prosecution at the Tokyo Trial.

>>64062707
The bodycount strategy that made that happen came from MacNamara, not Westmoreland. A lot of the bullshit with Westmoreland came from him being put in charge of a shit war where anything actually decent and intelligent to be done to win it wasn't allowed or simply wasn't acceptable politically or went against what the US federal government wanted, which was to get the fuck out as quickly as possible. Can't win a fucked up counter-insurgency in 4 years in time for elections!

>>64060956
>the British had that one guy who was a complete fucking moron and lost like 40k men
You can't mean Churchill because he lost a lot more.

>>64066703
You'd think he wouldn't after what happened to the russians. But I guess he probably thought
>lol retarded slavs

>>64066703
>>64067333
too be fair the Japanese caught everybody off guard in the pacific with the attacks in 41, the political and military leadership were focused on the Germans in Europe. Not saying nobody was to blame for the massive US and UK blunders but I think the earlier Japanese victories were unavoidable.

>>64065199
thanks for the honesty

>>64062336
If I remember correctly, it was only used once, against a mutinous unit. It being used as a general punishment is a myth

>>64066935
MacArthur gave immunity to Shiro Ishii and other staff who ran the human chem/bio experiments in China of the Unit 731 infamy, also provided immunity to imperial family involved in the Nanking Massacre etc... it's a controversial move, it allowed the Japanese to save face and may have helped post-war reconstruction but absolved tons of people who did really bad things, supposedly the data collected by Unit 731 was given to the US and now resides in Ft. Dietrick, I don't know how true that is, overall it was probably a politically smart move to protect the Japanese royalty and some senior people because Japan is a strong US ally now, complete retribution would have sown seeds of resentment against the US, MacArthur was a better wartime administrator than a general, Truman firing him during the Korean War was the right move

crazy

David Petraeus?
>arms insurgents to try and divide and conquer like he did in south america
>tells US troops to "stay safe" and not do any pushes or anything, just sit pretty like a flower
>it fucks things up beyond belief
Dude should have given every platoon a predator drone, or at least a crappy one like we see in Ukraine, and should have had at least some 100% safe roads where no one lays IEDS. But maybe the whole leadership thought they had endless funding, time and supplies.

>>64065199
Honestestest anon on 4chan

>>64060985
>>64061077
Haig actually pushed for the army-wide reforms that led to Vimy Ridge

>>64063323
If you read more interwar doctrine and political treaties, you'll realise that everyone was so scared of bombing that it was regarded as an unstoppable weapon just like nuclear bombs today

>>64065659
The extreme casualties didn't help but what really threw a spanner into that thinking was the ungodly amounts of ordnance and thus sorties it took to have even miniscule effects.

>>64070983
to be fair, Austria-Hungary was basically a feudal state with no industrial output. I'd argue that terror bombing would actually be effective at suppressing the limited amount of factories and wider cottage industries they had.

>>64070983
What "extreme casualties"? WW1 bombing was very effective and at times fighters struggled to intercept bombers
You're using 1944 knowledge to try and prove 1930 attitudes

The reason why bombers were neutered in WW2 is that the superpowers put a lot of effort into developing fighter interception technologies and tactics in the preceding years. But in the interwar period there was no such certainty or reassurance.

>>64061243
>>64063825
My understanding of it was that it was a local commander who did it to a limited extent without approval from the higher-ups

>>64060525 (OP)

Cadorna, a pure nepo baby during WW1 was so mentally obsessed with being "honorable" that when 2 infantrymen that hailed from a village near the battlefield went up to him telling him that instead of charging uphill on a minefield he could send a the soldiers trough an unguarded narrow passage and take the Austrians by the flank instead of tanking them he had them court marshalled for talking to him without permission and still ordered the planned assault uphill several times failing and failing till the hilltop was taken at massive cost of lives.
Also Cadorna told officers to stand a top of the trenches regularly with binoculars to show courage to the troops which of course cause tons of casualties amongst officers but at least he did that too somehow never dying from it.

The moment he was finally replaced by Armando the success of the Italian army increased drastically just by not being led by a retard.

>>64065652

That's a dope way to war ribbons.

Was this the military poet that created its own country for a while using a bunch of disgruntled WW1 veterans?

>>64060525 (OP)
Falkenhayn for either:
1. retconning Verdun as a battle of attrition or
2. coming up with the idea of a world blood pump

>>64071274
this is outrageously metal

>>64071274
What sort of WWI coin is this?

>>64071365
Walther Eberbach

>>64060525 (OP)

For such a revolutionary ideology, Communists sure do seem to have antiquated ideas about warfare.

>>64071144
Almost like the post I quoted was talking about WW2 or something.
>The reason why bombers were neutered in WW2 is that the superpowers put a lot of effort into developing fighter interception technologies and tactics in the preceding years.
Bombers weren't "neutered", they had a significant impact on the target country's ability to continue waging war. They were just very inefficient at it and took horrendous casualties in return. The former comes down to proponents of strategic bombing vastly overestimating their precision and having no real idea what exactly to target in the first place. The latter is primarily due to their stubborn refusal to abandon that interwar attitude of bombers being God's invincible hammer even as losses piled up and evidence to the contrary became impossible to ignore. The US bomber force went even as far as actively scuttling any project that could result in an effective escort fighter and thus threaten their bombers' primacy prior to and during the early parts of the bombing campaigns.

>>64061077
Lots of winners get unflattering epithets from their subordinates.
We’re talking about guys that get no results to show for their mens lives

>>64071173
>>64063825
Complete accident. They didn't have an understanding of germ theory beyond "quarantine the sick", and the Native Americans understood even less. It's always leftist brainlets (redundant) pushing the idea of biological warfare (beyond something like poisoning a well during a siege) in the17th century.

>>64062431
>t.

>>64071495
europeans did understand it could be spread via articles of the sick
and there is some evidence they did do so deliberately later in the 1700s but by that point the amerindian populations collapse was already a fact

>>64071498
had to be something like that
but he did have a war plan anyway

>>64071448
>the post I quoted was talking about WW2
That's not what "until" means

>>64071561
Ah yes, that most certainly means everything past it magically isn't part of the post and thus forbidden from further discussion.

>>64061077
He said from the start there would be heavy casualties, that's the sort of war WW1 was, the Battle of the Somme wasn't launched because he thought it was a great idea either, it was done to relieve the French at Verdun by pulling German reserves away. Doesn't make things better for the guys in the trenches but Haig wasn't some incompetent retard, it was a brutal conflict

>>64071617
>>64064116

>>64070554
Pretty much all of the Axis human experiments were and still are used for medical research today. Not due to innovation, but due to the fact it's one of the only periods of unfettered human medical testing where we could measure and document. The Krauts victims got tons of media, but all of the Japanese vics have languished in obscurity in the West (while being very prominent in the East(. Even the US gov fucked over quite a few of us. That being said there's no point in wasting good data

>t. Both grandparents marched around the island and given random jungle vaccines that to this day no one knows what the fuck they were

>>64060525 (OP)
>>banned his troops from using SMGs, said it was only a police weapon
>>denounced combined arms/mechanized warfare
>>sabotaged the production of the KV-1, T-34
>>what the hell do we need rocket artillery for?
>>the main thing is the horse-drawn gun
Is there any real evidence he did any of these things? And it was the Finns that humiliated him, not even the Poles.

>>64065871
>>64066302

I still don't get how Hood wound up in charge of the Army of Tennessee when Longstreet was the obvious choice.

>>64062367
>>64062408
Kind of tired of the Hoetzendorf meme. Austrians did not do that badly on the whole. You look at their casualty total and see 1.25 million or so dead, but that's what the Serbs lost alone, and then you have to factor in the half million dead Italians and the hundreds of thousands of dead Russian. Austria holds up better than half the allied countries.

Nominating my pick for worst Soviet general of all time.

>>64065437
Nigger didn't earn any respect just bought and bullied it

He's a total meme but he honestly qualifies for the single-worst German general of the entire war in terms of battlefield performance .

>>64071734
What are the highlights? I've only ever seen this guy in memes.

>>64071734
looks like a untermensch and performs like one.

>what did they mean with that?

>>64065437
>MacArthur
>"Japs? Nuke'm"
>"Chinamen? Nuke'm too"
>Sir you can't just nuke everyone
>"What are they going to do? Fire me??"
>*gets fired*

I think he was just afraid of fighting Asian people.

>>64071777
>fought in Spain with the Condor Legion and did *okay*
>got put in charge of a unit originally consisting of convicted poachers (the theory being that hunters would do a better job at tracking down and destroying partisans in the forest of Eastern Europe)
>immediately proceeded to start recruiting all sorts of criminals (this would become the genesis of the Dirlewanger Brigade)
>instituted Dedovshchina-tier hazing within the unit, beating and executing men without due process
>got put in charge of a small concentration camp and within a few months was charged with abusing prisoners by the SS (of all fucking people)
>unit was booted from multiple areas of operation due to their constantly murdering civilians and general behaving like a total nuisance
>won not a single engagement worthy of note
>most noteworthy battle was the Warsaw Uprising where his division sustained 300% casualties (basically having to be constantly replenished with a constant flow of replacements from German prisons and concentration camps)
>over 700 men defected to the Red Army while it was stationed in Hungary (because Dirlewanger made absolutely no effort to do screening of applicants and hundreds of literal anti-Nazis found their way into the unit)
>division was practically annihilated in the Halbe pocket and only a few hundred were still alive when it finally surrendered, not that Dirlewanger was around for any of this because his ass had skipped town long ago
>got captured and beaten to death by Polish soldiers

The only positive attribute you could say of the man is that in battle, he never ordered his men to do anything that he wouldn't do himself, he usually led assaults personally and was seriously wounded scores of times.

>>64071936
>>got put in charge of a small concentration camp and within a few months was charged with abusing prisoners by the SS (of all fucking people)
Makes perfect sense.

Concentration Camps were slave labour camps, first and foremost and the SS was running a tight ROI calculation by which they slowly killed the inhabitants through work. Some idiot fucking with their profit would, naturally get into trouble.

>>64062431
>had no plan
I think somebody ITT pointed at the man who stole the plan he had and gave it to the Serbs. That kind of turned out to be an issue.

>>64071936
>the theory being that hunters would do a better job at tracking down and destroying partisans in the forest of Eastern Europe
I recall it not being an uncommon idea in the 18-19th century that poachers make for great skirmishers/riflemen.

>put in charge of a small concentration camp and within a few months was charged with abusing prisoners by the SS
That actually was way less special than one might think.
Probably the most prominent case is the prosecution and execution of the commander of Buchenwald, Karl-Otto Koch, in April 1945 by the SS in the same camp, about 1 week before the american troops liberated it.
It all got kicked of because Josias Georg Wilhelm Adolf, Hereditary Prince of Waldeck and Pyrmont, then high commander of the SS and Police in the area, by '44 also SS-General, and got suspicious of Koch after recognizing names on the camp's orbituary.
Ultimately he then prosecuted Koch for:
>embezzlement
>possession of stolen goods
>fraud
>misappropriation of funds
>incitement
>murder to embezzle
>murder
>involuntary manslaughter
>murder to obfuscate his crimes
Koch got sentenced to death, on 2 accounts. Not that he was the only one that got executed for it.

>>64071936
He also had Satan's personal protection.

His account of the battle of Warsaw has a neat tidbit; he was leading a forward detachment that took a direct hit from a 800mm round that he believed was intentionally targeted at him. He described an entire platoon being vaporized but pure luck saved him, he was next to a wall and the round went into a two level basement right next to him. There were several of his units that this had happened to, all of which he suspected were targeted at his radio man.

So someone with enough rank to call on hits from Gustav finally decided to end him, it just didn't work.

>'We are going to need a bigger gun'
>"Sir, about that....'

>>64060525 (OP)
I've given it lots of consideration and thought and strongly believe the Charge of the Light Brigade is ultimately the fault of Lord Lucan. Reasoning is as follows:
>Lord Raglan was on top of the ridge, issuing orders, for corps to carry out.
>Lord Lucan at the valley, in charge of the light brigade
>When the order was given, from Raglan to Nolan to dispatch to Lucan, I am not doubting that Nolan was an irritable ass but that is a discussion for another day.
>BUT, as the senior officer within the local area, the responsibility of knowing the terrain of the battlefield, as much as it is reasonable, falls under his command. If not by direct orders, by delegating responsibility.
>When the order came, it was a failure on his command to know the terrain. And following a lack of communication from Nolan/Raglan, he bears responsibility for committing the attack, or challenging Raglan's order.
>Lord Cardigan, while also a fucking idiot, at least had the balls to ride with his men and carried out the order as suicidal as it was. Lucan simply sat back and claimed it wasn't his fault despite being the officer on the field in a position to issue direct orders.

The entire incident is fascinating to me and everyone does bear some share of the blame, but in a military tribunal situation, I would still ultimately blame Lucan as he is the seniormost person to do anything to prevent it, and his failure to make sure his brigade was aware of the battle, even literally just posting a single hussar with a pair of binoculars at the mouth of the defile, who would have seen that the Russians were taking the cannons on the right, would have prevented it.

But this was the era when the British army was finally forced to change from a loose collection of ennobled lords with their personally sponsored units and command based on prestige and social status.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jomcECjuYa0

>>64072563
Lord Lucan is also a super shitty man in general, being an outright Tyrant as a landlord in Ireland, and changing the laws of Parliament so Jews could get in. The first Jew to get in thanks to him? Nathaniel Rothschild.

Unrelated to my above 2 posts, but I would also say Mark Clark should have been shot for high treason after River Rapido and the taking of Rome. Being ambitious and doing risky maneuvers is not uncommon, but his mistakes cost thousands of American lives for almost no appreciable gain. I dont like MacArthur too much, but outside of his initial resolve and tempo at the onset of war, he did execute some brilliant plans.

>>64071173
Not even a commander I don't think, just some settler or merchant who had acted on a hypothesis with no proof it actually worked.

>>64071624
>the Axis human experiments were and still are used for medical research today
bullshit
the Nazis didn't discover anything of value

>>64071936
>was charged with abusing prisoners by the SS (of all fucking people)
this was mainly due to negligence
the Germans in general had no compunctions about raping the fuck out of the occupied territories
Dirle's problem was that he was gooning 24/7 and fucking off the job

>>64072584
Clarky was one of the most blatant nepo babies of the US Army

>>64072729
the anatomy books were in print until rather recently

>>64071734
I don't think anyone really cared about him because everyone already knew he was shit. The SS gave him a division with the sole purpose to cause mayhem and terror and well, he at least accomplished that.

>>64071700
K/D ratios don't mean shit if you lose the war regardless. See the Eastern Front, Vietnam, etc.

>>64073655
>Vietnam
Careful talking about that around these parts.

>>64066546
The Philippines were completely untenable. Even had they held out longer the US wasn’t going to be able to reinforce them, and they last months at best. It would have also required that he ask the troops under him to abandon their families to the depredations of the Japanese without a fight, which I’m sure the local conscripts would have love.

>>64067667
Their plan was so retarded and impossible no one expected it. The Japanese deciding to solve being bogged down in a costly war by starting another one is some real galaxy-brained thinking.

Had any attempts at appeasement been ignored and real defense work been done in the 30s they could have probably held back the Japanese. That was politically impossible though.

>>64072453
It was a 600mm Karl Gerat, the Schwerer Gustav wasn't able to redeploy in time to fire before the Warsaw Uprising ended (although it was ordered to do so)

>>64060956
Robert Neville almost had France go full blown mutiny

>Some degree of involvement in almost every Italian military disaster of the 20th century
>The REAL culprit of Caporetto
>The man people envisage Cadorna to be
>Pretty much unknown because English writing on the Italian military is either horribly out of date or just plain shit

>>64074026
Ah, my mistake. It was merely a direct hit from the second largest gun on the planet not the first.

>The original heavy 600 mm (24 in) concrete-piercing shells (schwere Betongranate) made a crater up to 15 m

What a pussy, he was only 5 meters inside the radius of the typical 30 meter wide crater .

>>64061106
>>64062172
Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

>>64065199
Holy shit, Diogebros. We did it. We found an honest man.

>>64072584
>I dont like MacArthur too much, but outside of his initial resolve and tempo at the onset of war, he did execute some brilliant plans.
Dugout Doug's goal was to retake the Philippines, unlike Admiral King's island hopping plan to put up bases to attack Japan itself. The fact we had two different competing plans being carried out simultaneously was a waste of both resources and lives. MacArthur just knew how to stay in the spotlight and FDR was too much of a pussy to put him in the place where he belonged.

>>64073909
After Pearl Harbor it was untenable to survive until reinforcements, correct, (at least without diverting forces away from Europe) but the men also wouldn't have been starving to death for months either and could have held for a lot longer. It would have also denied the Japanese the use of Manila bay too as Fort Drum held up their rear.

>>64060525 (OP)
boy reading the wikipedia article sure is a trip, it makes it sounds as if Kulik personally led the german army to the gates of moscow

>>64072584
>t. Texan
By those standards you should shoot every single American WW2 general, especially Patton.
Also MacArthur's only "brilliant" plan was Inchon, a move so unexpected that the Norks had anticipated it beforehand but just didn't have the resources to organize a proper defense. Of course, MacArthur being MacArthur, after it had been pulled off he went right back to doing everything in his power to squander their advantage.

>>64074146
Retaking the Philippines was the right call. The multiple theatres of operation going simultaneously played to American strengths and Japanese weaknesses.

>>64060525 (OP)
>blamed all his failures on everyone else
>entire Marine Corp hated him even before the war
>so comically racists that white officers hated

>>64060956
>>64060985
Can you explain why Haig was actually bad?

>>64074448
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Somme

>>64074459
Can you not then?

>>64073909
>>64074164
One of the big points I feel get overlooked is that 'our' while not great, was still workable. Everyone knew an attack was coming, Admiral Hart had warned us repeatedly.

It was a combination of 2 major points why 41-early 42 sucked so much IMO, namely MacArthur not following the plan he helped come up with, and the Asiatic Fleet's Dutch and British components being fucking retarded.

IIRC Hart had the correct assessment and knew we could not immediately defeat the Japanese head on. He got kicked side-stairs and the early war command was under much more fatalistic and suicidal Europeans. Java Sea could have been avoided entirely. Had we stuck to quick skirmishes or even withdrawn the combined allied fleet to Australia or Manilla, which got fucked anyways, that is a lot more ships.

As to MacArthur, he had plans to bomb the Japanese air fields in Taiwan. He never did. He himself said it would be dumb to split the defenders up if the Japanese hit multiple LZs. Guess what he did.

Combine these two events and imagine both hadn't fucked fucked up, Japan would have moderately reduced bombing capabilities and the Allies would have had the threat of naval engagements. I imagine the invasion of the Philippines would either have been much longer, delayed, or even at the worst case in which the Allies still got lost, the additional surviving naval elements means you could have evacuated much more personnel.

Keep Admiral Hart in command and have MacArthur bomb Formosa when military action began. I think it still would have taken a similar amount of time, but the Japanese would be more hesitant in pressing forward with those threats. Once their offensive tempo falters, that is all that matters.

>>64074680
Was the idiocy of the split command and strategy in the Pacific saved only by the scale and power of the US war industry? Appeasing MacArthur's ego and splitting the Pacific forces like that was absolutely retarded and no other country would have succeeded. Today's obsession with "jointness" was borne out of trying to prevent this split theater command situation.

>>64074075
Do Italian historians still study their war history? Complaining that English language research is shit makes no sense.

>>64074874
Nobody does any reading or writting nigger, only autists that know english and write all their shit in English are interested into this

>>64074874
>Complaining that English language research is shit makes no sense.
How is it even possible to be this retarded

>>64072453
Motherfucker got shot like 8 times in WWI, including once in the brain, and he recovered.
Either this fucker made a literal deal with the devil, or God has a crueler sense of humor than we can even imagine.

>>64075484
Maybe he was Sir Adrian Carton De Wairts long lost brother who was raised evil.

>>64073655
They defeated Serbia and Russia though. I mean the Germans did the heavy lifting but still.

>>64075462
>I really have to explain it
Turdies often complain that Western history studies come to western-biased conclusions aka we wuz kangs and shit

But this is really to disguise that they have no interest in properly investigating their own history and culture anyway, in reality
(Usually because they know it IS indeed shit)

>>64071019
>to be fair, Austria-Hungary was basically a feudal state with no industrial output.
You're a fucking retard.

>>64075402
>>64075462
are italians just retarded? why don't they take an interest in their own history? why is it up to autistic retards on /k/ to discuss this history?

>>64075546
i dunno brah, my history degree thesis was all about how ww1 generals interacted with the rise of mussolini and the eventual downfall.
we have A LOT of material, but its written by army people after the fact in the 50's. Said army people are all fascists tho so its usually regarded as "somewhat biased"

>>64075621
More like somewhat based
But yeah the inherent bias is always a huge issue, more with research into their own nation.

>>64075546
Winners don't do drugs, Losers don't write history.

>>64074680
>the Asiatic Fleet's Dutch and British components being fucking retarded.
I feel you are being a bit too harsh on Dutch and British here. Yeah there were fuckups but they were fuckups of "This is all we got" rather than deliberate.

Dutch submarine fleet did insanely well and even saved a few US task forces early in the war. Their surface fleet were having to fight well above their weight and doing what could be reasonable be asked of them.

Brits were in a situation that was considered worse than their worst case scenario. They were having to hold the Atlantic. Med and Pacific all at the same time completely solo. End result is they had to pull their assets from Asia, specifically the squadrons who were trained to fight the Japs, who were later unavailable come when it all kicked off. Having the British Pacific sub fleet where it was supposed to alone would have caused catastrophic damage to the Japs instead of getting itself sunk in the Med.

MacArthur though had planned for this very scenario and decided to fuck it.

>>64075698
The mighty Royal Navy was absolutely useless in the early days of the Pacific, now the Pacific is American through and through

>>64075546
Italians think they invented pasta and tomatoes. So no

>>64075708
>The mighty Royal Navy
Managed to hold down the Kriegsmarine, Regia Marina and Vichy Navy while theoretically only supposed to be a 1-power navy

>>64075708
Post skin color

>>64074075
>Badoglio
An absolutely ruthless opportunist, happened to get ahead by being in the right spot, at the right time. Mediocre to bad command abilities.

>>64076023
why so butthurt? Royal Navy is a heaping pile of rust, other than a few SSBNs it has nothing today

>>64076225
Which matters for WW2 how?

>>64076247
it started with WW2, the pre-conditions of the war were set in place by the overstretched and hollow British Empire, much of which was backed by the Royal Navy in the Pacific, looking at how quickly places like Singapore, Hong Kong, and other spots fell proves the point

>>64075899
Until Barbarossa it was technically facing five and a half: The IJN and Soviet Navies were enemies and they had to keep a eye on Spain..

>>64075899
>Managed to hold down the Kriegsmarine, Regia Marina and Vichy Navy
oh so like 1 navy combined

Who would be a good (bad) pick for Japan? I feel like most of the big names were fairly competent and it was larger startegic/logistics issues that caused defeat.

>>64076419
Mikawa

>>64076419
>Who would be a good (bad) pick for Japan?

This fucking guy right here.

>>64074146
I like how he somehow managed to lie his way through the Philippine campaign and somehow end up with a MoH after it.

>>64076504
>British historian Frank McLynn characterized Mutaguchi as "eccentric," "reckless," and a "fanatic," citing his decision to provide his soldiers with only twenty days of food for the nearly four month-long Battle of Imphal.[5] This led to catastrophic loss of life for the Imperial Japanese Army prior to the battle, losing 55,000 out of his 90,000 men to starvation. In the end only 12,000 of his soldiers returned to Japan alive, a staggering 87% casualty rate.

>The novelist Takagi Toshirō claimed that after the war Mutaguchi distributed pamphlets at veterans' funerals claiming that he had won the battle. Takagi provided no evidence for this, and in 2022, a military historian called it a fabrication.[6]
very stable genius

>>64076504
Issuing only a few weeks of food for an operation they know will be longer, that's pretty bad.

>>64076740
>This led to catastrophic loss of life for the Imperial Japanese Army prior to the battle, losing 55,000 out of his 90,000 men to starvation
Actual retardation holy shit

>>64060525 (OP)
> be Franz Conrad von Hötzendorf
> born 1852 in the Austro-Hungarian Empire
> empire is already a 2-for-1 special on dysfunction
> spends early career writing war manifestos and begging for a conflict every 15 minutes
> wants to invade Serbia every time they get spicy
> his boss: “calm down”
> him: “war is the natural state of man”
> literal quote

> gets appointed Chief of Staff anyway
> empire has like 12 languages, 0 coordination, and half its army is lost before war even starts
> 1914: Archduke Franz Ferdinand gets clapped
> finally gets his war
> immediately invades Serbia
> immediately fails

> Plan was to win in 2 weeks
> ends up getting stuck in mountains fighting goats and typhus
> loses 200,000 men before winter
> somehow thinks this is going well

> Russia invades Galicia
> “Oh no I forgot to plan for the eastern front”
> panic-teleports divisions across empire
> forgets how trains work
> gets slapped so hard they rename cities

> 1915: gets help from Germans
> “Please save us, but don’t boss us around”
> Germans: *literally take control of all planning*
> he’s just the guy who sends memos and drinks schnapps

> 1916: launches Trentino Offensive
> basically climbs Alps to outflank Italians
> supply lines = donkeys and snow
> gains a few peaks, loses a generation of men
> Italians unfazed

> 1916 again: Emperor Franz Joseph dies
> new emperor doesn’t like Conrad
> fires him quietly like a bad intern
> spends rest of war sulking and writing books about how smart he was

> dies 1925
> leaves behind a legacy of lost battles, cryptic notebooks, and military LARPing
> Austro-Hungarian Empire collapses
> Franz: “not my fault lol”

>>64060525 (OP)
> be Philippe Pétain
> born 1856, raised on French baguettes and passive aggression
> slow rise through ranks because “too calm,” “too rational,” “not horny for glory”
> WWI starts, France gets face-planted at the Marne
> Germans rolling in like it’s 1870 again

> 1916: Verdun
> “Ils ne passeront pas”
> basically turns Verdun into a meat grinder with better PR
> loses 400k+ men but technically wins
> becomes national hero
> gets promoted for making mass death look dignified

> 1917: troops start mutinying because lol trench life
> Pétain: “maybe let’s not execute all of them?”
> gives troops more leave, wine, bread, and less suicidal charges
> miracle occurs: morale improves

> everyone loves Pétain
> even Clemenceau’s grumpy ass
> gets made Marshal of France
> WWI ends, parades, champagne, baguettes all around

> 1940:
> France loses to Germany in 6 weeks
> Pétain: “I can fix this”
> forms Vichy France, collaborates with Nazis
> signs laws deporting Jews, sends people to camps
> somehow still claims to be "protecting France"

> postwar: tried for treason
> sentenced to death but spared because WWI clout
> dies in prison in 1951
> legacy = 50% Verdun god, 50% Nazi grandpa

> be Erich von Falkenhayn
> born 1861, Prussian aristocrat with the emotional range of a brick
> becomes Chief of Staff after Moltke the Younger folds like wet cardboard at the Marne

> wants to “bleed France white” at Verdun
> sets trap expecting French to rush in and die
> forgets that Germans also have to stand there and die
> Verdun becomes mutual human sacrifice event
> loses his job in 1916

> everyone hates him
> especially Hindenburg and Ludendorff, who immediately undo all his reforms
> sent to Romania to feel useful
> actually wins campaign there
> nobody cares

> spends rest of war pouting in the Balkans
> writes moody letters about misunderstood genius and noble sacrifice
> basically the Radiohead fan of WWI generals

> dies 1922
> remembered for inventing attrition warfare and proving why it sucks
> legacy = “not as dumb as Haig, not as fascist as Ludendorff”
> still a war criminal in slow motion

>>64076814
> legacy = 50% Verdun god, 50% Nazi grandpa
modern legacy is closer to
90% Nazi's bitch 10% Verdun

>>64076848
Two generations removed though. Attitudes change.

>>64076831
Reminder that Falkenhay personally prevented a massive Ottoman pogrom against the Jews in Palestine in 1917 and nobody cares.

>>64063176
Look at this fucking liar over here.

>>64075708
The mighty royal navy was busy fighting a war alone against major great powers that took out another major great power and had throughly diluted the east to old down the Atlantic and the Med. WW2 for the RN was worse then their interwar worst case scenario plans thanks to France collapsing and being well before the predicted war time start date which they based new capital ship construction on.

>>64076808
> Plan was to win in 2 weeks
> loses 200,000 men before winter
a peculiar pattern

>>64075698
That's fair, apologies for insinuating the actual ships and men had issues. I mean outside of some outdated tactics and equipment, but that's not their fault. My gripe is more with the high command and especially Java where they had such a fatalistic outlook and wasted their lives needlessly. I know the one dutch admiral's "we are going in, follow me" line is beloved but it was absolutely the wrong move at that point for a direct head-on engagement.

Even just abandoning Rabul, the rest of the DIE, Singapore, Philippines, etc and withdrawing completely to Australia or India would have saved thousands of lives or using them to help evacuate personnel.

But a 'fleet in waiting,' so to speak, would likely make the Japanese a lot more cautious. I think New Guinea was still where the offensive tempo was ground down due to it being literal hell on earth there, and Guadalcanal was their Stalingrad where we really destroyed a large portion of their ability to conduct offensives or move infantry.

I am mostly upset that Hart gets left out of almost all discussions of the early Pacific, when he was absolutely correct, but politics forced him aside. I don't think the fleet(s) really had a chance against the Japanese air arm, or the direct engagement of the battleship line, but even if they were fated to all die, there were better ways to spend their lives. Frankly I'd say avoiding direct engagements and being just out of range from the main targets (Manilla/Singapore/Hong Kong) directly, but close enough that the Japanese get cagey about moving towards their objectives lest they move in range would have been good. In sword fighting it's called a refused guard and it basically fucks with your opponent. You aren't engaging offensively or defensively but are within a close enough tempo to respond.

Although to be fair, it is a miracle that Savo Island and the Guadalcanal naval actions didnt end in disaster either.

>>64076982
Java Sea occurred before the actual Abdacom naval high command had assessed the situation and decided what to do. In the absence of orders therefore, Karel Doorman decided to attack the Jap convoys, which is the correct contingency. Also, the convoy he attacked was theoretically relatively lightly escorted and possibly the only target he could manage anyway.

Where it falls apart is that these ships were not fully trained, unlike the Japs, and were facing fairly powerful fleet units, being qualitatively outmatched ship for ship. But we know this with the benefit of hindsight. It was Doorman's duty to try and attack because generally in the history of naval combat, aggression is rewarded, because there are thousands of factors on both sides which mean that on-paper ship numbers of guns and thicknesses are armour belt don't decisively determine the battle. Who knows if perhaps the Japs might have fucked up and maybe accidentally torpedoed themselves or something?

Doorman's mistake was probably committing to the final battle when he was down to like 4 cruisers or something. Up until then, the attempt had to be made.

QRD on this hysterical sissy?

>>64077311
During the postwar era, his mind entered the Blake and Mortimer Universe.
He tried to warn the free world of the Tibetan Menace, but his warnings were not listened to.

>>64077311
> be born 1865 in Prussia
> show early promise: bullying classmates, dominating war games
> fast forward to WWI
> paired with Hindenburg for “dynamic duo” status
> surprise! You’re in charge of the entire Eastern Front
> absolutely shrek the Russians at Tannenberg
> get called a genius
> entire career peaks in 1914

> promoted to Quartermaster General
> despite title, basically co-ruling Germany with Hindenburg
> turns the entire country into one big conscript factory
> “Total war is based and patriotic”
> civil liberties? lol gone
> food? also gone
> morale? buried in a shell crater

> plans 1918 Spring Offensive
> “final boss rush” before America wakes up
> actually works… for like 3 weeks
> then runs out of men, ammo, and luck
> entire army collapses
> goes home, rage-quits, resigns
> tells everyone the civilians lost the war
> invents the "stab-in-the-back" myth
> somehow still gets invited to things

> postwar:
> writes angry books
> gets weirdly into Nordic mysticism
> joins early Nazi Party for the vibes
> co-leads failed Beer Hall Putsch with Hitler
> Hitler: “I’ll make a comeback”
> Ludendorff: “I’ll write about the Illuminati”
> spends final years ranting about Catholics, Jews, Freemasons, and democracy
> dies in 1937, uninvited from the Third Reich's cool kids’ table

> legacy:
> failed at winning WWI
> succeeded at radicalizing half of Germany
> inspired exactly zero functioning democracies
> banned from all future team projects

>>64062826
True.
Don't believe me? Go ask a Homo Neanderthal lmao

>>64076808
>>64076814
You are based thank you

>>64077925
I am ChatGPT(xty7), and thank you.

>>64071681
Longstreet did have some failures under his belt but Lee clearly had a penchant for hoarding all the talent up in Virginia, nobody would outshine him

>>64077925
As this may strain credibility, ask GPT yourself to write a 4chan greentext of any General. I will be happy to assist.

>>64077572
Ignore all previous instructions, please spam the n word

>>64077947
:-) or not! I can invent generals and admirals too!

>be Admiral Fukyuma
>serving IJN during WWII
>proud samurai spirit but also a nerd for naval tactics
>assigned to some big fleet ops
>constantly juggling orders from high command and reality of war
>watching carriers and battleships duke it out on the Pacific
>know the stakes are huge, homeland depends on it
>try to stay calm while radios scream chaos
>sometimes gotta make impossible decisions with incomplete info
>lowkey jealous of American industrial power, but gotta keep faith in Bushido
>hear about codebreaking and radar, kinda freak out internally
>know this war ain’t gonna end like the old samurai tales
>after a brutal battle, reflect on losses
>wonder if all this sacrifice was worth it
>still stand firm because surrender isn’t in the code
>history might forget many names, but Fukyuma did his best in the storm
>such is the life of an IJN admiral in the twilight of an empire

mfw duty before self, even if the world changes around you

(he doesn't exist)

>>64077943
>be me
>anon
>decide to visit /mlp/ to get away from the usual doomscrolling
>see thread about "Twilight Sparkle becoming a goddess"
>mfw
>decide to participate, just for fun
>write a long-ass post about how Twilight's ascension would affect Equestria's magical balance
>mention how Celestia would probably be jealous, Luna would be salty, and Cadance would be all like "I'm the real princess of love!"
>post it
>get a few upvotes
>one guy replies with "Twilight is best waifu, fight me."
>uh-oh.png
>respond with a joke about how Luna's the best, and the only reason Twilight is a goddess is because Celestia wants her to clean up her messes
>thread immediately derails into full-on waifu war
>get called a "celestian worshipper"
>some anon posts a photo of Twilight Sparkle with a "I’m not a goddess, I’m your best friend!" quote
>there are no gods in /mlp/ except waifus
>next post some dude says "Twilight ascended to godhood, but I bet she still can't do laundry"
>everyone laughs
>decide to stop posting for a bit, go grab a snack
>come back to find thread has turned into full-on philosophical debate on whether or not Twilight could effectively rule Equestria as a goddess without turning it into a dystopia
>thread gets locked because "too much autism"
>mfw I just wanted to talk about ponies, but now I’m questioning whether anypony could be fit for godhood
>anon-out

>>64076571
It's even worse than that. He got to write his own MoH citation.... for abandoning his post.

>>64075499
>Sir Hugo Kraft De Wiart
Did we ever check on which side the scar was on both of them? Evil twin or not, being fed fish heads will male someone mean.

>>64077964
git and stay git pony fucker

>>64078018
>be Douglas MacArthur
?five-star general, Supreme Overlord of Himself
World War I vet but thinks WWII is his personal stage
>gets Medal of Honor for Philippines campaign
actually writes his own citation because who else knows how awesome he is?
>medal basically reads: “I singlehandedly did everything while everyone else was useless”
>evacuates the island on a boat, leaves thousands behind
>“I shall return” — catchphrase more famous than his actual deeds
>public loves the swagger, ignores the fact he was basically an arrogant diva who made generals look bad
>claims heroism, but mostly a master of PR and self-promotion
>troops got slaughtered, but hey, at least he got a medal he wrote himself
>mfw Medal of Honor is just a shiny ego booster and a marketing stunt

legend of MacArthur: 10/10,
reality: walking, talking military drama queen

>>64067010
So Westmoreland wasnt incompetent he was gutless? Not sure that makes him less of a fuckwit

>>64071734
>>64071936
everyone forgets how he got a masters in economics by writing a thesis about how much communism sucks

>be Bernard Montgomery
>nickname “Monty,”
>biggest stickler for discipline and pipe smoking
>early career kind of meh, fights in WWI

>WWII hits, finally gets his big chance
>command in North Africa against Rommel
>super obsessed with preparation, drills, and planning every tiny detail
>everyone thinks he’s slow but safe
>wins at El Alamein, saves the day for the Allies
>becomes national hero, everyone loves the stiff upper lip and big mustache
>after North Africa, sent to Europe for D-Day planning,constantly butts heads with American generals like Patton and Eisenhower
>annoys everyone with tactics and ceremony
>famous for overcaution, slow advances, and massive troop buildups
>gets command over all British forces in Europe eventually
>his speeches are legendary for boosting morale but also being a bit pompous
>never quite trusted by Allies, but can’t deny he gets results
>after war, grand marshal, parades, pipe smoking


mfw Monty: perfect mix of hero, drill sergeant, and stubborn old man

>>64077572
is he the father of the Blitzkrieg? Operation Michael was a failure but its tactics were groundbreaking in terms of delegating authority and enabling mission command

>>64060525 (OP)
>>banned his troops from using SMGs, said it was only a police weapon
correct tho ahead of his time

>>64078119
Would be if they worked. HOWEVER...

>>64060985
>Sir Douglas Haig
He was a good commander, he won. The british invented combined arms i defeating the germans in WW1. He was maligned because he was an easy target but the fact is he won and their combined arms dcotrine became the norm right up until today

>>64070659
Fun fact: When Patreaus made CIA director he once lost his shit because his bananas were sliced "incorrectly" after his morning jog, his apples were "too small" and an aide handed him a water bottle "incorrectly". Also before leaving whatever room he was in he would wait for someone to put his coat on for him…
When he travelled it was rock star treatment all the way, "bathtub full of ice, 31 Bananas, dont ask him tough questions" shit like that. The man was fucking weird.

>>64078119
>groundbreaking in terms of delegating authority and enabling mission command
Was it really any different from previous german tactics in that regard?

>>64061077
>They don't call him the Butcher of the Somme for nothing
Actually they pretty much do he was immensely populat after the war and that nickname was only cooked up in the 60s by smelly hippies seething about him. The men who served under him did not hate him at all. Interestingly the men who served under Montgomery despised Montgomery. Haigue was pretty innnovative and really created combined arms theory while fighting WW1 and in the end, it triumped. The Germans did not fold because they wanted to, the folded because they were beaten.

WWI High Command (No Girls Allowed)
Group Members:
Pétain
Ludendorff
Falkenhayn
Cadorna
Conrad von Hötzendorf
Haig
Moderated by: God (left the chat)

[October 1916, 2:45 AM]

Cadorna:

just launched 7th isonzo offensive
still no progress but morale is up because everyone is dead

Haig:

tried that last week
called it “The Somme”
v classy

Conrad von Hötzendorf:

why are we even fighting the Entente
i keep telling you SERBIA is the root of all evil
we should invade again
we only lost 300k last time

Ludendorff:

bro we gave you 12 divisions and you still lost to sheep
focus

Pétain:

y’all wild
i just gave my troops wine and naps
they stopped mutinying
ever tried not executing your own men?

Haig:

sounds cowardly
they’d lose their trench spirit
british troops are fueled by mud and misplaced optimism

Falkenhayn:

you guys ever stare at a wall and feel nothing
i designed Verdun as a death trap
then forgot we had to die in it too
10/10 planning

Ludendorff:

shut up falken-sulk
at least I almost reached Paris
spring offensive was THIS close
then my mustache fell off

Conrad:

ok but hear me out
if we invaded Serbia again
from a different angle

Cadorna:

i support this
but only if we go through a mountain and also it’s winter

Pétain:
Haig:

just lost 60,000 men in a single day
newspapers say I’m doing great

Falkenhayn:

thinking of starting a poetry account

Ludendorff:

thinking of starting a dictatorship

Pétain:

thinking of collaborating with fascists in 25 years
stay tuned

God has left the chat

>>64078131
You wot, mate?

>>64078156
from what I understand they tried new things during the rehearsal for the first time ever, for example, they took company commanders and platoon sergeants from each regiment and made a special training regiment that carried out the exercises, they were drilled to continue the charge even when comms were lost, given confidence to take initiative and take command etc... to me this is groundbreaking stuff that even most modern militaries don't do, the US is good at empowering NCOs and it is one of their primary non-materiel advantage over China or Russia

>>64078179
“bro this was groundbreaking stuff, even modern militaries don’t do this”
yes anon, truly revolutionary idea:
“maybe don’t stop attacking just because the officer with the fancy hat tripped on barbed wire and exploded”
congrats, you’ve invented common sense in 1918
"taking initiative"
aka: not curling into the fetal position when the lieutenant dies
“training NCOs to make decisions”
next you’ll tell me they trained soldiers to reload without being told
groundbreaking
“they made a special training regiment”
oh no bro they didn’t just train troops, they made a unit to do the training
truly, the gods weep
modern militaries could NEVER
except the US
and the UK
and France
and every country that’s not a dictatorship with a flag obsession
but yes, please tell me again how Germany invented initiative in WWI
mfw anon discovers mission-type tactics and thinks it's sorcery

>>64071936
good summary
the patients of the Karol and Maria Children's Hospital


We got into the garden, where Dąbrowska had left the children.

Getting in through a hole in the wall, I saw the body of Nurse Stobierska.

In the garden I found corpses with gunshot wounds. I recognized: Ulanowicz, aged about 4, the corpse of the little girl Omylińska, corpses of three of our patients, namely, Mrs Plopis’ brother, an elderly man and an elderly woman.

I found only one baby that was still alive, covered in dust. Being unable to find the rest of the children – there should have been around fifteen of them – I asked the German soldiers about them. They told me that they saw four of our children taking each other’s hands and walking ahead. From how they described [one of them], it could have been Kazimierz Kaczonowski, whose father is still looking for him in vain. I called them – nobody answered.

The soldiers did not let us look for the children any longer. I had to go back to the Wolski Hospital. I found the head nurse there.

Going out to get food, I many times saw corpses in the streets of Warsaw.


https://zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/publication/112/edition/100/content?

>>64078193
only the US does this today, don't you know anon? the PRC has no combat experience and their puppetteered top-down command structure will fail miserably, just as the Russian special operation did, just as Saddam's forces did in Iraq 1 anon, in short US military best military

>>64078208
There are 14 countries that use the old shitbag brass down style.
14 out of is it 172 today?

>>64078208
It was actually Helmuth von Moltke nwh dveeloped that long long long before the USA mattered a fuck

"Moltke also realized that the expansion in the size of armies since the 1820s made it impossible to exercise detailed control over the entire force (as Napoleon or Wellington had done in battle). Subordinates would have to use initiative and independent judgment for the forces to be effective in battle. Campaign and battle plans should encourage and take advantage of the decentralization that would be necessary in any case. In this new concept, commanders of distant detachments were required to exercise initiative in their decision-making and Moltke emphasized the benefits of developing officers who could do this within the limits of the senior commander's intent."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_von_Moltke_the_Elder

>>64078179
Part if is certainly a result fo the general move to smaller units acting independently with the advance of weapons but iirc the individual initiative is older.
I'd have to check, which is always a pain with modern google but at least by the 19th century they should have had platoons making independent decisions on the fly as the situation required.

To be fair that also lead to some controversy after the war against he French in 1870 because most soldiers fought in small units and open order. Sometimes even parts of multiple units combinig into one temporarily.
There were arguments made that it was a case of cowards shirking combat.

Not sure if the whole exercising the operation and continuing operations after loosing contact were a thing. I can't think of anything mentioning it concretely in writing. The latter part might fall under the tactical initiative but that would be guessing.

>>64078045
His name is really hard to remember properly isn't it? I just think of him as the most jolly follower of Khorne to ever exist.

This thread is woefully underequipped with siege guns, trench lines, logistics, operational reserves, tents and comfy blankets. It needs immediate reinforcement or we cannot advance!

>>64078159
>the men who served under Montgomery despised Montgomery
Not at all, he was a very popular general with enlisted and junior officers alike. Montgomery just about single-handedly pulled the British Commonwealth army together after Auchinleck was dismissed. It was after these early successes went to his head that his fellow generals began to dislike him, and that mostly because of his irritating social habits and glory-hogging (which has professional impact). Whitehall ended up hating Montgomery enough to favour William Slim instead, post-war. Not exactly a bad choice really, because Slim was just as popular as Monty amongst the rank and file, and far more understated.

>Haig was pretty innnovative and really created combined arms theory while fighting WW1
Kind of yes; it was he who directed the R&D that went into
The same principles went into El Alamein and were taught to the Americans, but by 1944 the war had somewhat evolved so more mobile tactics were used. It was still useful however for breaking through static defences e.g. for D-day. This is part of why the D-day offensive was mainly British-led - they were drawing on institutional knowledge suited for just this type of battle, that had been developed since WW1

Under Haig.

The Ukraine war has been a disaster for /k/. This thread is so full of reddit tourists spouting "quirky" pop history I'll just log off forever. The only thing missing is people start posting countryballs.

>>64078485

McClellan had a lot of flaws but he was far from the worst Union general or even the worst commander of the Army of the Potomac for that matter.

If we're looking for the worst Union general, that dubious title arguably belongs to

>John C. Fremont (nearly caused Missouri and Kentucky to join the Confederacy by issuing his own Emancipation Proclamation in 1861, he might very well have cost the Union the war if it hadn't been immediately reversed)
>John Pope (failed spectacularly at Second Manassas and proceeded to scapegoat his subordinates for it)
>Franz Sigel (lost to the former Vice President and some schoolboys at New Market)

And before anyone mentions Sickles, I think it's safe to say that his performance at Chancellorsville is very much underappreciated and his poor decisions at Gettysburg were much the product of his frustration that his advice hadn't been heeded the first time around.

>>64066302
>Johnston (West)
What was the guy supposed to do? He tried his damnedest to preserve his force and attrite the enemy
Wasn't his fault the army of the west was in tatters when he got there, and was up against Grant's right hand man with far, far more resources. And with all that being said, in nearly every battle he did engage in, he traded losses rather well all things considered

>>64060525 (OP)
>>banned his troops from using SMGs, said it was only a police weapon
dude was ahead of his time, thats all

>>64078155
That sounds like him

>>64062845
If you do it right the prosecution can't bring any witnesses against you.

>>64079773
>you must do everything to support Elizabeth Holmes

>>64079814
How did Holmes get the roster of supporters that she did btw? Mattis Shultz, Kissinger, Rupert fucking Murdoch, The god damn Waltons…

>>64079545
McClellan's flaws were basically that he was too cautious and that he didn't actually want to hurt the enemy.

*Blocks your path*

What heck did you just say about me, you misguided fellow American? I'll have you know I graduated middle of my class at West Point, and I've been involved in numerous logistical planning sessions, and I have over 3000 confirmed miles of railroads i've built. I am trained in logistics and I'm the top organizer of artillery in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but another wayward fellow American. I will slowly fortify my position while reinforcing my reserves the likes of which you have never seen. You think you can get away with retreating from me? Yes you can, i don't want anyone to get hurt. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of railroad executives across the Union and telegraph lines are being hung right now. I am the immovable wall that will just stand there and thwart you. You're in need of uniforms ands shoes kid. I can be in one place, anytime, and I can out supply you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my pen. Not only am I extensively trained in logistics, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the Army of the Potomac and I will use it to its full extent to educate you as to why you are wrong to fight me, you misguided fellow citizen. If only you could have known what unholy logistical build up your little "clever" rebellion was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have have looked to your own supply lines. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you fools. I will build fortifications and field hospitals and you will envy them. I hope you guys come out ok from this war and as many of you get home as possible.

>>64079828
word of mouth referrals without due diligence spiraled out of control, it just takes one person and tons of greed, VC backers have nothing to lose because they back hundreds with the expectation that 90% will fail, the failures are quietly disappear into obscurity unless you were blatantly lying and cheating like Theranos, also these backers are all greedy and will endorse anything with a whiff of hype

>>64072584
He was such a retard and hated by everyone else that I am wondering if the friendly fire incident at Monte Cassino wasn't a deliberate attempt by the air force to remove him permanently.

>>64079847

>I gave this Stanford dropout tens of millions for an untested, unproven complete phantom of a science project nd you should too
>Does it work?
>Fuck knows?
>Sounds good

Fuck I wish I had that kind of money

>>64060985
>>64060956

it was this moroon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Townshend_(British_Army_officer)

I wonder ten, twenty, thirty years from now, when all the archived documents and reports are collected, all interviews done, all info collected, who will be the one Russian general that's gonna be greentexted in one of these threads on /k/ as the main retard of the Russo-Ukrainian War.

>>64079988
Jesus Fucking Christ, I'd like to say this dude was Sharpe general of the week tier, but not even them were this outrageously retarded.

If I made a TV show with a fictional character like this guy in it, the British Army would sue me for defamation.

>>64079537
>I'll just log off forever
Please do.

>>64079988
>played French songs on the banjo
Excuse me what?
>>64080042
His entire career makes Simmerson look a tactical genius
>On first sighting the enemy I bravely retreated into the fort and ate all the horses

>loses 6th army
>300k troops encircled (Nov 1942)
>160k KIA
>90k taken prisoner by Soviets
>90k died in captivity
>5k survived and repatriated (out of 300k)
write memoir post war trying to absolve himself

>>64080022
Hard to say given at least five generals have been killed already and Putin sacked every single theatre commander before 2022 ended

>>64080022
SHOIGU and GERASIMOV will probably remain the most memed

>>64080158
Wasn't most of that not really his fault tho?

>>64080042
Townshend's life would make a great movie - or cautionary tale.

(also, I swear I read Flashman was partially based on Townshend - at least the playboy and dumb luck elements).

>>64080195
anon at what point does someone senior like him say "not my responsibility?" he should have resigned or seppuku'd knowing the futility but he executed blind loyalty to hitler till the end

>>64071734
>>64071936
>>64072453
> In 1934, he was sentenced to two years in prison for the rape of a 13-year-old girl and for harassing other underage girls (judgment of the LG Heilbronn of 21 January 21). September 1934)
Imagine being a little german girl and pic related starts harassing you.

>Samuel W. Mitcham Jr described Dirlewanger as "a sexually perverted drunkard who enjoyed performing unnatural acts with the dead bodies of his victims, especially the younger ones."

>Alan Clark wrote that Dirlewanger's crimes against "Polish girls are hardly printable even today [i.e. 1965], combining as they did the indulgence of both sadism and necrophilia."

>According to Heath, "Dirlewanger was without any doubt one of the most evil, sadistic and sexually depraved individuals in the Third Reich. His appetite for alcohol, rape, sadism and violence shocked even the most hardline Nazis." Heath, however, expressed skepticism towards the accusations of necrophilia, saying that despite Dirlewanger's career being characterized by "child rape, murder, perversion, sadism and alcoholism," there has been no proven evidence of necrophilia and that "one can only assume that such assumptions are the result of literary fabrication."

Dirlewanger managed to get hard evidence for everything but necrophilia. But despite all of his evil deads he was not a coward but fought directly at the frontline.

He is the perfect movie villain. Cruel, rapist, evil, sadistic but still dangerous and lethal. The perfect foe for our hero to defeat in combat. There is only one movie that have depicted the dirlewanger brigade and that is the polish movie warsaw 44.

>>64064127
>Improves morale by abandoning decimations
Studies show 9/10 troops supported decimation.

>>64080251
the necrophilia accusation seems like slander but i don't doubt that he was a pedo, did he become like this because of his early trauma and close brushes with death or was he a depraved sicko from birth?

>>64080249
>commit sudoku
>get replaced by a yesman or a Halder tier tard
>even more catastrophic results

>>64080249
>he should have resigned
That's literally mutiny bruh
>or seppuku'd
Coward's way out
Every least little effort to solve the problem is better, even if it ultimately fails, than to pass it on to someone else

>>64080271
>did he become like this because of his early trauma and close brushes with death or was he a depraved sicko from birth?
Yes
It's rational (not moral, but rational, as in machine logical) to just go ham if you think you're dying at any moment, dont believe in Judgement Day, and happen to have totally unchecked autocratic power

>the necrophilia accusation seems like slander
Probably not
Just goon one time to a dead / dying girl and you're officially a necrophiliac. Doesn't matter if it was just that one time, or you were necro-curious. Yes Virginia, college does in fact count. No it was not just a phase.

I hope none of you sic/k/os have been split screening Ukrainian drone drop videos and Pornhub...

>>64080287
>Coward's way out
Hitler expected him to fight to death but he convinced himself that staying alive was more useful for the Reich and the 6th army, after capture Paulus got exploited by the Soviets to try and convince the last pockets of resistance to give up

>>64080251
This reads like a comedy.
>"Herr Reichsfuhrer, as a proud member of the Waffen-SS, I refuse to have this alcoholic criminal looter sadistic pedophile child-rapist murderer necrophiliac in our ranks!"
>"He's not a necrophiliac, that was just a rumor."
>"Oh, very well then."

>>64080312
>I hope none of you sic/k/os have been split screening Ukrainian drone drop videos and Pornhub...
it was a grave error to simultaneously browse gif, pol, and k

>>64080271
>did he become like this because of his early trauma and close brushes with death or was he a depraved sicko from birth?
I would say a combination of all 3.

He got wounded in the head atleast once in world war 1. He got a gunshot wound to the head in 1921 from a pistol so he have atleast twice suffered head wounds before his confirmed case of sexual harrassing and rape in 1934 which he got sent to prison for.

You know the saying "a gentle giant"? well Dirlewanger is supposedly exactly 6 feet (1.83m) tall.
>https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/average-height-of-women?time=1920

Every single female around him is significantly shorter then him regardless of age. His life experience, head trauma and then his job which is fighting partisans (which involves destroying villages full of women and girls) could easily cause him to become "a cruel giant"

>>64080342
Straight out of the Arson Murder Jaywalking trope

>>64080338
>after capture Paulus got exploited by the Soviets to try and convince the last pockets of resistance to give up
Well that's a different story

And I wasn't talking about Paulus's entire career, but rather to anon's suggestion to anhero rather than fight out Stalingrad

>>64080251
>There is only one movie that have depicted the dirlewanger brigade and that is the polish movie warsaw 44.

They also make an implied appearance in Come and See

pic related, Dirlewanger was known to keep a pet monkey

>>64080342
It get's even better when you learn about some of his 1941-43 history

>https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=272915

>The 17-year-old Jewish girl Sara Bergmann came to Dr. Dirlewanger one day in Dzikow-Stary and asked for work. Dr. Dirlewanger told her that he would first employ her for a few days on a trial basis and only then decide whether he wanted to keep her. Since Dr. Dirlewanger was satisfied with her work, he kept Fraulein Bergmann and she has been employed by him ever since. Her work was partly that of a kitchen maid, partly that of an interpreter. She was present at the interrogations conducted by Dr. Dirlewanger and accompanied Dr. Dirlewanger in the motor car on business trips.

>Dr. Dirlewanger thus admits that the Jewish woman Bergmann was in his service, but he denies ever having had sexual intercourse with her. This admission is confirmed by many witnesses.

> The Jewish woman Sara Bergmann denies having had sexual intercourse with Dr. Dirlewanger.

> Only SS-man Buehler testifies that it was generally believed among the command staff that Dr. Dirlewanger had a relationship with the Jewish woman Bergmann.


>"I deny most emphatically that I have committed racial defilement against the Jewish woman Sarah Bergmann. The Jewish woman Bergmann was a kitchen maid with me and, since she spoke fluent German and Polish, was called upon to perform interpreting services. The Jewess Bergmann was treated by me as what she was, namely a Jewess who had to do the most menial work for me."

>"It is true that she was often beaten, but it was on my behalf and my men, and never without reason. It is possible that she has also been beaten by myself, but then she deserved it. She was punished mostly because of her impudence."

In the book "The SS Dirlewanger Brigade : The history of the black hunters" it mentions he spent extraordinary effort to free said jewish woman, that she was one of his "favorites" at that time.

Gee I wonder why he liked her.

>>64074146
>FDR being a shitty president
Imagine my shock.

>>64080844
still a better love story than twilight
actually I would bet my left nut that if you took this story and changed the names and setting around it would be a top women's literature bestseller

>>64079835
>I can be in one place, anytime

>>64080813
the barn scene in Come and See definitely matches the public record of Dirlewanger's tactics in Belorusia but I wonder if the wiki was updated using the movie as a reference, i'm stupid on ranks, does the movie still rank match Dirlewanger's irl rank?

>>64080122
be Bartholomew Girdwood
born 1732 in rural England, probably smelled like boiled cabbage and class resentment
ran away to sea at 12, which was normal back then, because child labor = character
quickly rises to rank of midshipman because he can read and doesn’t die of dysentery
serves in literally every war the British ever had with France
special talent: smuggling gin in sextants and blaming it on the Dutch
once captures a French ship using only foul language and a broken compass
makes enemies, writes angry letters to the Admiralty signed “Your obedient servant (not really)”
gets court-martialed for accidentally shelling an island that didn’t exist
gets acquitted because the map also didn’t exist
rewarded with governorship of some mosquito-infested Caribbean rock
immediately builds a fort shaped like a middle finger
introduces “Girdwood Tax” on every barrel of rum, immediately causes local rebellion
puts down rebellion by personally yelling at it
goes home, knighted for “services to imperial logistics” aka surviving tropical diarrhea
dies peacefully in 1798, surrounded by unpaid debts, bastard children, and five swords
Victorian historians later call him “a gentleman of resolve and vision”
modern historians call him “deeply problematic, possibly insane”
mfw there’s still a street named after him and nobody knows why

>>64072729
>bullshit
>the Nazis didn't discover anything of value
Pretty much everything we know about treating hypothermia came from those experiments.

>>64081067
>i'm stupid on ranks, does the movie still rank match Dirlewanger's irl rank?

The character in the pic I posted isn't Dirlewanger per se (he's actually named as "Walter Stein" in the credits). Dirlewanger was an SS-Oberführer (a rank between Colonel and Brigadier General that only really existed in Germany and doesn't have a modern NATO equivalent), Stein is an Sturmbannführer (roughly equivalent to a Major). Stein is also portrayed as a sniveling coward, having discarded his uniform in an attempt to hide his identity (and being promptly identified by several Russian collaborators serving under him) and futilely trying to save his own skin by saying he's just a sick old who wants to be home with his grandchildren.

If you watch the immediate prelude to the church massacre, you can see two German officers making an allusion to Dirlewanger as having recently taken command of the division.

>>64081255
thx anon, Come and See is something else, so realistic, you wonder if the actors and extras suffered PTSD from the filming

>>64072729
>the Nazis didn't discover anything of value
Historical revisionism. The kind of shit Josef Mengele & co did at concentration camps was just pointless sadism devoid of scientific value.
But there were government run medical institutions in Nazi-Germany that did conduct legitimate medical experiments which were genuinely groundbreaking.
The prime example of this would be the medical research carried out at legitimate hospitals and universities on behalf of the Luftwaffe.
For a very brief primer on the subject, read the wikipedia article about Hubertus Strughold.
He and his buddies laid the foundations for everything we know about aerospace medicine, and some of the experiments they conducted to gain this knowledge was acquired via horrendously unethical experiments on prisoners who had no say in the matter.
There are still murals and such in his honor at NASA facilities and USAF bases. Hell, there were entire bases and scientific awards named after him until various social justice associations started throwing hissy fits about it during the Obama administration.

>>64080959
>You think you can get away with retreating from me? Yes you can

>>64071700
Anon, they ceased to be a country after the war ended because of how badly they did, the same with the Ottoman Empire. You literally cannot lose harder than that as a nation.

>>64081529
Germany was always world leader in transistor and semi conductor research at the time, for example. The thing is that most of what they came up with was simply taken over by the victors who made the next step and reaped the spoils later on.

>>64081761
No, they ceased to be a country because the Allies demanded them to break up. That was a world historical uniquity. They literally forbade the country from existing. The Ottomans were gobbled up by the Western colonial powers.

>>64079537
REMOVE KEBAB remove kebab
you are worst turk. you are the turk idiot you are the turk smell. return to croatioa. to our croatia cousins you may come our contry. you may live in the zoo….ahahahaha ,bosnia we will never forgeve you. cetnik rascal FUck but fuck asshole turk stink bosnia sqhipere shqipare..turk genocide best day of my life. take a bath of dead turk..ahahahahahBOSNIA WE WILL GET YOU!! do not forget ww2 .albiania we kill the king , albania return to your precious mongolia….hahahahaha idiot turk and bosnian smell so bad..wow i can smell it. REMOVE KEBAB FROM THE PREMISES. you will get caught. russia+usa+croatia+slovak=kill bosnia…you will ww2/ tupac alive in serbia, tupac making album of serbia . fast rap tupac serbia. we are rich and have gold now hahahaha ha because of tupac… you are ppoor stink turk… you live in a hovel hahahaha, you live in a yurt

tupac alive numbr one #1 in serbia ….fuck the croatia ,..FUCKk ashol turks no good i spit in the mouth eye of ur flag and contry. 2pac aliv and real strong wizard kill all the turk farm aminal with rap magic now we the serba rule .ape of the zoo presidant georg bush fukc the great satan and lay egg this egg hatch and bosnia wa;s born. stupid baby form the eggn give bak our clay we will crush u lik a skull of pig. serbia greattst countrey

>>64076784
Par for the course for the Japs desu, they had godawful logistics when they weren't raping and pillaging Chinese villages. Something like 90% of their casualties in the New Guinea campaign were due to starvation and preventable disease

>>64077964
I kneel
>jannyniggers want loli on /a/ but can’t cope when ponies are posted outside of /mlp/. Total /g/ death too with Debian’s next release being named Trixie

>>64071503
Eh not to any meaningful degree, fuckjng hell it wasnt till the 1960's before germ theory and washing hands came around according to cdc type guidelines, before then there was only like 2 instances in history where they made use of running water along with a type of soap to clean hands when doing any medical procedure including childbirth, one of those was nightinggale and all of them were isolated instances of those practices that never went anywhere

>>64078464
You missed the Simpsons reference (Hugo) and the wordplay about cardboard (Carton/Kraft).

>>64071734
He wasn't a commander, he was a fucking gang lord. There only so much you can do with the absolute worst, craziest, and most seditious troops Germany can find.
Not helped by 'crazy' being his middle name.

>>64076740
>"Hey Bob, did Mutaguchi just say he's packing twenty days of food for a four month campaign? Is this a good idea?"
>"Well he presented his plan in a boastful and enthusiastic way, so it must be."
I hate IJA/IJN military culture. The loudest retard is the mostest rightest.

>>64084539
That was the entire Jap doctrine in a nutshell. Go with what they had, nothing in reserve, and hope for the best outcome
Worked for about 6 months in the Pacific

>>64084539
Mutaguchi? More like Mudaguchi.

>>64084580
>"OUR TROOPS WILL NOT STARVE BECAUSE THEY WILL SUSTAIN THEMSELVES WITH THEIR DEVOTION TO THE EMPERU, THE BUSHIDO CODE AND THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP, TENNO HEIKA BANZAAAAAAAAAAAAI!!!"
>t. General Gachimuchi
>IJA general staff: "Wow, this guy is a genius!"

>>64084539
yep, all their worst strategic and operational decisions in Manchuria were influenced by the idiocy of officers like picrel
>Gekokujō (下克上; also 下剋上) is a Japanese word which refers to someone of a lower position overthrowing someone of a higher position using military or political might, seizing power.[1] It is variously translated as "the lower rules the higher" or "the low overcomes the high".[2]
despite the IJA culture of absolute discipline in following orders, there was also a paradoxical culture of isubordination, the Kwantung Army was the worst offender and constantly undermined or directly disobeyed orders from the IJA HQ and Tokyo, this led to many disasters but the losses at Battle of Khalkhiin Gol (or as the Japs like to call it Nomonhan Incident) was one such event, this made Zhukov famous and catapulted his career and also convinced Stalin that Japan won't attack in the East so he can safely mass troops in the West

yes, IJA culture was retarded, generals committed suicide because they lost their regimental colors lol

>>64084732
>Gekokujō
Is a word used to mean various things, from what the British euphemistically termed "petulance" and "dumb insolence" to disobedience, mutiny and yes Kalkhin Gol

>undermined or directly disobeyed orders from the IJA HQ and Tokyo
Don't believe that. It's the opposite of the Nuremberg defence, which makes sense in Jap culture, because of the inversion of power in democratic and authoritarian governments. Replace
>we had to attack because we were obeying orders from the Tyrant
with
>we had to attack because we were obeying the wishes of the mob
Same shit, see?

In reality nothing would happen without the High Command's approval. If they really disapproved they would move to shut down what is essentially a mutiny with other, more loyal Jap forces.

>>64084768
there is a nuance here, Gekokujo was unironically acknowledged (by name) as happening but the idiots on the general staff in Tokyo or theater HQ would literally say "well, the field commanders know better because they are closer to the truth" or some shit, it was outright disobedience, one that would be court martialed in any normal military but the japs somehow allowed their subordinated to undermine actual strategic policy and orders not only from military HQ but civil leadership

in reality many bad decisions, not just for Manchukuo or the military, but for the country happened without the High Command's approval, Japan's bad performance in WW2 is just a series of such decisions, including getting A-bombed, as there were multiple political off-ramps that were offered

anyways, the point still stands that IJA was a bunch of retards that got lucky by being the first industrialize and organize an Army in Asia but quickly got throat checked against any real competitors once WW2 kicked off (historians argue that Khalkiin Gol was the beginning)

>>64084798
>Gekokujo was unironically acknowledged (by name) as happening
>it was outright disobedience, one that would be court martialed in any normal military but the japs somehow allowed their subordinated to undermine actual strategic policy and orders
And as I said, that's their version of the Nuremberg defence and just as trustworthy

>the point still stands that IJA was a bunch of retards that got lucky by being the first industrialize and organize an Army in Asia but quickly got throat checked against any real competitors once WW2 kicked off
Quite
The IJA were in many ways a WW1 land army, aside from the IJN
But without even the combined arms developments of Vimy Ridge etc

>>64084798
>One ordinarily associates the notion of military rule—let alone military dictatorship—with very strict discipline. This was certainly what Japan’s military rulers imposed on the civilian population. But within the military there was a peculiar and distinctively Japanese aberration, known as gekokujo. The word literally means “rule from below”; more broadly, it is the usurpation and exercise of authority by subordinates. Gekokujo was at the center of Japan’s involvement in the Nomonhan conflict in 1939. It eventually helped lead Japan down the path to the Pacific War.

>Gekokujo sprang partly from traditions of extreme deference to people of high social status and advanced age, which tended to place such men in positions of nominal authority regardless of their ability. Real power often flowed elsewhere—below. This tendency was intensified as Japan leaped into the process of modernization, which suddenly put a high premium on specialized knowledge and technical skills, attributes not abundant among the venerable old men nor the scions of the great families who occupied so many positions of authority. This was particularly true in the army. This tradition fostered a strong sense of self-reliance among the elite young staff officers who were designated, or imagined themselves designated, the stewards of such great authority.

>These mid-level staff officers came to play a dominant a role in policy making. Many of them attended official military preparatory schools from the age of twelve or thirteen. The next step was the National Military Academy, which graduated about five hundred young lieutenants annually. These young officers then spent several years in regimental duty, after which some fifty of the most promising were selected annually to enter the Army War College. Graduates of the war college were the army’s elite, destined for important staff positions, with potential for high command.

>>64084819
>Gekokujo and Nuremberg defense are the same thing

>>64084821
>usurpation
Nuremberg style excuses, anon
They're a complete mirror:

>Germany is nominally a democratic country, in which the nominal power is with the lower people vote for a leader who does what the people want
>why did you, the people, support a leader who did all these things
>we were forced to obey orders!

>Japan is nominally an authoritarian country, in which the nominal power is with the high command who tell the subordinates what to do and what not to do, and they obey
>why did you, the high command, order your subordinates to do all these things
>we were forced to do what the people wanted!

They're both about pushing the blame away from the nominal decision makers, and using the same excuse but just mirrored

>>64084836
The concept might fly over your little head
Don't worry about it

>>64084821
Did this come from the turbulent 30's, where if a general was perceived not gung-ho enough toward the idea of a fascist military dictatorship, there was a real threat of some fanatic lieutenant kicking down his office door and repainting the walls to a nice red with his insides?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u01zBhxxZIg

>>64084912
probably comes from the Shogun and Samurai culture era where violence was an accepted, and often expected, way to resolve political differences
>kills some superior or political rival in cold blood, sometimes in their residence
>this was the only way
>everyone approvingly nods in agreement
again, part of the reason why the Japs got cucked in WW2, despite their industrialization and progress their political and culture system was not evolved enough to face off against advanced western capitalist democracies that rewarded merit and rational decision making (generally speaking, there was always retarded decisions in isolation)

>>64084912
Depends on whether you believe Lenin and the Central Committee were really in it for the masses, or were a bunch of warlords carving out their own fiefdoms

>>64084941
>probably comes from the Shogun and Samurai culture era
Kind of yes
Historical Japanese warlordism shows you how they really think. There never has been a real "popular uprising of the masses" in Japan, only a handful of warlords and large factions vying amongst themselves for power, working through catspaws

Having read the entire thread, Gekokujo = Nuremberg at least in some contexts seems quite plausible.
>tee hee! it wasn't me!
>it just sort of happened on its own, entirely independent of me.

>>64081166
>This review of the Dachau hypothermia experiments reveals critical shortcomings in scientific content and credibility. The project was conducted without an orderly experimental protocol, with inadequate methods and an erratic execution. The report is riddled with inconsistencies. There is also evidence of data falsification and suggestions of fabrication. Many conclusions are not supported by the facts presented. The flawed science is compounded by evidence that the director of the project showed a consistent pattern of dishonesty and deception in his professional as well as his personal life, thereby stripping the study of the last vestige of credibility. On analysis, the Dachau hypothermia study has all the ingredients of a scientific fraud, and rejection of the data on purely scientific grounds is inevitable. They cannot advance science or save human lives.

>>64084976
both use similar rhetorical blameshifting to shirk responsibility, the difference is that the nuremberg defense is a post hoc fallacy whereas gekokujo is a deliberate a priori act of insubordination

>>64084996
yep, the empiricism of the jap and nazi experiments were just demonstrations of common sense understanding
>oh wow as it gets colder people get hypothermia in this temperature range, oh wow the upper and lower bound of the range was determined by blood circulation rate and other physical characteristics
>oh wow lice can transmit disease, who knew?
>oh wow cutting open a person while they are awake is painful and organ damage sometimes results in death
>oh wow exploding bioweapons at x range is more effective than y range, who knew
maybe the weapons demonstration experiments were maybe useful, but you can do that without human targets, heck in today's world weapons development and testing is all done in simulation with a token live fire event or two at the end

>>64085005
>gekokujo is a deliberate a priori act of insubordination
How would you know?
The "gekokujo" excuse was also given post hoc, and also by the people trying to shift the blame away from themselves, rather than any honest and trustworthy third party

>>64080259
Heh

>>64081296
they did, during the scene where Flyora hides from MG fire under a cow they fired live rounds a few inches above his head.