← Home ← Back to /k/

Thread 64061178

185 posts 48 images /k/
Anonymous No.64061178 [Report] >>64061244 >>64061823 >>64061877 >>64062352 >>64063627 >>64063816 >>64065603 >>64068160 >>64068227 >>64073297 >>64073564 >>64074649 >>64076675 >>64078006 >>64083562 >>64083575 >>64083780 >>64089170
>it took the US Army 70 years to admit that the brits were right all along with the .280 british
Better late than never I guess.
Anonymous No.64061192 [Report]
>taking any advice about firearms from the British
who could possibly be retarded enough to do that?
oh right, Sig, that figures.
Anonymous No.64061201 [Report] >>64061238
Are these going to randomly explode outside the magazine?
Anonymous No.64061238 [Report]
>>64061201
I have 0 faith in the two part construction so maybe
Anonymous No.64061244 [Report] >>64061879 >>64062195 >>64063216
>>64061178 (OP)
Wow, we've really come so far
Anonymous No.64061823 [Report]
>>64061178 (OP)
>the more someone advocates .280 British the less they know about it
Anonymous No.64061877 [Report] >>64061899 >>64070694 >>64078083
>>64061178 (OP)
the spear fucking sucks and is/was a stupid idea
>everyone's sperging about the new logic in war being sustainment/logistics
>switch to a service rifle that burns through barrels like 3x as fast, uses heavier and more expensive ammunition, and STILL doesn't consistently defeat level IV
>which is irrelevant because none of our adversaries even issue body armor at scale
they should have just bought some AR-10s in 308 so they don't have to bust the M14s out if they need to plink at tuskens in conflicts where engagement range is long.
Anonymous No.64061879 [Report] >>64062180
>>64061244
Is that a PRC on bottom?
Anonymous No.64061899 [Report] >>64063135 >>64068216
>>64061877
You wrote so much to say so little of merit.
Anonymous No.64062180 [Report] >>64062220
>>64061879
nah, that's .308
Anonymous No.64062195 [Report] >>64062352 >>64092416
>>64061244
>So, you are telling me it's shorter than the DMR cartridge than we're currently using?
No, it's the same size
>Than it's more powerful?
No, it's about the same
>But the higher velocity?
Shorter barrel life
>Looks over to the Sig guy smoking a cigar holding a stack of money
What the fuck
Anonymous No.64062220 [Report] >>64062368 >>64063159 >>64070678
>>64062180
.277 Fury has the same case length as .308. That's either .30 TC or it's sneedmore and the bullet looks fatter than it really is.
Anonymous No.64062352 [Report] >>64073561 >>64074099
>>64061178 (OP)
>.280 british
A round with worse performance than .270 British and 6.5 Grendel.

>>64062195
>Than it's more powerful?
>No, it's about the same
Well this confirms that you know nothing about the .280 British.
Anonymous No.64062368 [Report] >>64066634
>>64062220
https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/cartridge-of-the-week-the-277-sig-fury.13063/
Anonymous No.64063135 [Report]
>>64061899
He's entirely correct, the NGSW is retarded.
Anonymous No.64063159 [Report] >>64070678 >>64070699
>>64062220
.277 is practically a short case .270 winchester running retard pressure to make up for the capacity loss.
But wait they've gone to reduced pressure because of how much it fucks up the gun.
So .277 Fury is nothing but a .270 Winchester in a .308 length case, at 70-72k psi instead of 65.

I can't believe I've lived to see one of the worst small arms mistakes in all of history.
Anonymous No.64063189 [Report]
Should have just adopted 6.5CM widely, as its already in use by SOCOM and any 308 can be readily converted to it. With tungsten core penetrators it perfect.
Anonymous No.64063216 [Report] >>64065583 >>64088782
>>64061244
So are these going to be impossible to reload or what?
Anonymous No.64063387 [Report] >>64063422 >>64063535 >>64063626 >>64065582 >>64070545 >>64070551 >>64074626
They wanted 2950fps out of a 16" barrel, which they got. 6.5 sneed out of a 16 inch barrel is pushing barely 2450-2500

6.5 Sneed is a cartridge meant entirely for shooting steel and paper, it has terrible terminal ballistics, at common hunting distances it just zips right through animals. You can't just put a tungsten penetrator on a 6.5 bullet and expect it to do everything.

They wanted a low BC bullet that was cheap to mass produce, which they got. Army says at 500y the .277 has 12 inches less drop than a 6.5 sneed out of a 16" barrel (41 inches vs 53). I don't know how they're calculating this, I'm dubious of their claims on drop with the 135gr training ammo, maybe the actual high pressure hybrid case stuff at 80k psi performs that well.

If the cartridge does what they're saying it does (high velocity high energy low BC and same length as a .308) it's probably really good. Honestly I wouldn't have a problem with it if they decided to just put it in a 16" suppressed bolt action with a folding stock and their gay little ballistic calculator LPVO. It makes more sense as a fire team DMR/SPR than an infantry rifle. I feel like all the problems they're running into are because they're trying to make it a semi automatic. The requirements are just too high and push the weight up to just under an M110A1.
Anonymous No.64063422 [Report] >>64063477
>>64063387
I suspect they already had a 6.8 projectile the eggheads had cooked up and wanted a cartridge and gun to shoot it.
Anonymous No.64063477 [Report]
>>64063422
This is exactly correct, there are press releases directly stating it. The improvements that they managed with m855a1 got the ball rolling on more projectile designs in general. They came up with a projectile design in 6.8 that they liked so much that they wanted a new rifle that could utilize it.
Anonymous No.64063535 [Report] >>64066552
>>64063387
>6.5 Sneed is a cartridge meant entirely for shooting steel and paper, it has terrible terminal ballistics, at common hunting distances it just zips right through animals
6.5 sneed has probably killed tens if not hundreds of thousands of deer at this point. People have been using a 243 for deer since before your granddaddy was born
Anonymous No.64063626 [Report] >>64066983
>>64063387
>If the cartridge does what they're saying it does
It doesn't, which makes literally every other discussion about this disaster of a rifle completely irrelevant
Anonymous No.64063627 [Report] >>64064297
>>64061178 (OP)
The 280 British was shit, would require bulky magazines, and has a rainbow arc. 223 is vastly superior as an infantry cartridge, no question about it.

.277furry is shit for different reasons.
Anonymous No.64063816 [Report]
>>64061178 (OP)
You're more retarded than the US government.
Anonymous No.64064297 [Report]
>>64063627
Thanks for putting my exact thoughts into words.
Anonymous No.64065541 [Report] >>64096885
>the year is 1912
>following 20 years of long-range counterinsurgency fighting in the distant edges of their empire, the British generalship move to adopt a doomed long-range rifle and cartridge on the eve of a major peer war

>the year is 2022
>following 20 years of long-range counterinsurgency fighting in the distant edges of their empire, the American generalship move to adopt a doomed long-range rifle and cartridge on the eve of a major peer war

it's all so tiresome
Anonymous No.64065582 [Report] >>64066552 >>64066594
>>64063387
do you think you're supposed to hunt deer with FMJs or something
Anonymous No.64065583 [Report] >>64066579 >>64067491
>>64063216
Nah, they should be just fine. A bi-metal case is going to add manufacturing complexity, cost, and potential for case separation.
The biggest issue is we already have .308, it has similar performance, and we're already mass producing them on the cheap. This was sold to the public as a replacement for 5.56, but what we're getting isn't .308 which we already have, but "worse .308" that is going to cost a ton of money to develop that we didn't need to spend.
Anonymous No.64065603 [Report] >>64088225
>>64061178 (OP)
>Bongistani firearms design
>Nigel's pissin hot 7.2 mm boolets
Errrrrm no thanks, I prefer AR's AK's not chambered in meme rounds plus whatever the Finish are cookin up nowadays.
Anonymous No.64066552 [Report] >>64096931
>>64063535
With JHPs.
Which are irrelevant for the conversation.
>>64065582
Do you think you're just going to be allowed to switch to JHPs in military service or something?
Anonymous No.64066579 [Report] >>64093253
>>64065583
>A bi-metal case is going to add manufacturing complexity, cost
Unitary cartridge manufacturing is actually absurdly complex.
You need to strike a sheet off brass into a blank-and-cup die or start with a puck, then do multiple rounds of drawing and ironing which causes the metal to work-harden and requires you to send the brass to annealing stations and through a wash cycle to rub the scale off. Then you draw/iron again, anneal and wash again, etc.
We just have an entire economy of scale built around unitary cartridges that allow ammo manufacturers to pump them out for cents. If you were starting from scratch, a bimetal case would actually be cheaper. It's just that you can't beat the bigger players with an already established process.
Anonymous No.64066594 [Report]
>>64065582
Hunters back when fmjs were new loved them. Said they fragmented easily and caused quick deaths. I believe them desu as the alternative was lead. FMJs are only "bad" because of an arbitrary lethality standard that was established to measure handgun efficacy. Rifles are a completely different ballgame. Some fmjs toothpick, others are devastating.
Anonymous No.64066634 [Report]
>>64062368
From your own link:
>The cartridge uses a case that is the same length and diameter as the .308 Winchester.
He either got a picture from somewhere else and mislabeled it, or grabbed the wrong cartridge when he went to take the picture himself.
Anonymous No.64066983 [Report] >>64069671
>>64063626
t. mad that the bullpup thing didn't win
Anonymous No.64067491 [Report] >>64067529 >>64068053 >>64068201
>>64065583
Isnt it strictly better than .308 in terms of raw ballistic performance? It just costs way more and fucks barrels up way faster
Anonymous No.64067529 [Report] >>64070827
>>64067491
The .277 Furry is only very slightly better performing than M80A1 Ball, but instead is retard loud, burns barrels, and at risk for occasional case head separation.
Anonymous No.64068053 [Report] >>64070390
>>64067491
Don’t listen to the other anon. It’s considerably better. Cost is an issue of economy of scale though. Eventually it’ll gain parity after about a decade.
Same as 6.5 CM.
Anonymous No.64068160 [Report] >>64070827
>>64061178 (OP)
>We tried to tell you
>All you had to do was listen
Anonymous No.64068201 [Report]
>>64067491
It is, but the question is always "better enough?"
that's the answer that has kept the M2 in service for a century will keep B-52 airframes built in the 60s in the air until the 2050s.
IMO the answer is no. It was also stupid to spend money reinventing the wheel on sidearms and we've all seen how that went. They could have just bought a bunch of glocks or some other generic strikerslop but they had the classic military making stupid/contradictory requirements around what should be a simple request which had many, many more than adequate existing solutions to get something that offers some useless niche functionality.

The funniest part of that entire contract was glock basically ignored the military requirements out of recognition that they were fucking stupid. SIG tailored a gun to them and priced it super aggressively and we've seen the outcome of that.
Anonymous No.64068216 [Report]
>>64061899
And you were able to refute nothing
Anonymous No.64068227 [Report] >>64068407
>>64061178 (OP)
I have yet to hear a good explanation of what the fury does so much better than 762 that we needed to spend retarded amounts of money on replacing what worked just fine.
We replaced 556 with a cartridge that is worse than 308 in terms of power and penetration while taking up the same magazine space.
Anonymous No.64068232 [Report] >>64068300 >>64070397
They should replace 5.56 with 300 blk the average brownoid that is in the US Army will never shoot past 300 yards all of that "markmen" talk is gay shit for mall ninjas.
Anonymous No.64068300 [Report] >>64068316
>>64068232
300blk was a replacement for 9mm smg's, noguns.
Anonymous No.64068316 [Report] >>64068323
>>64068300
I know, it carries more energy out of a shorter barrel and can swap to subs without any gas adjustments.
The average brown female in the US military isn't shooting out to 500 yards.
All of this gay shit is SIG marketing.
Anonymous No.64068323 [Report]
>>64068316
>All of this gay shit is SIG marketing.
That we can agree upon
Anonymous No.64068407 [Report] >>64073584
>>64068227
It does the same thing as 7.62 but out of a 13" barrel instead of a 20" barrel. That lets them attach a 7" long suppressor and have a suppressed rifle with the same power as an M110 but still short enough for door kicking.

It makes sense to me why they didn't just issue M110s to every soldier, but it doesn't make sense to me why they feel the need to issue a rifle with the same power as the M110 to every soldier. It's not because of armor, since it doesn't penetrate anything M855A1 doesn't without tungsten, and the tungsten loads are just for SOF. It's not because of range, because it doesn't have the accuracy to capitalize on its extremely high downrange energy.
Anonymous No.64069671 [Report]
>>64066983
>No denial detected
You get exactly what you fucking deserve
Anonymous No.64070390 [Report]
>>64068053
It's not considerably better.
Anonymous No.64070397 [Report] >>64070818 >>64072379
>>64068232
5.56mm has flatter trajectory, less recoil, and significantly better wounding characteristics.
Anonymous No.64070545 [Report]
>>64063387
>cheap to mass produce
It costs about $20 a shot
Is that cheap?
Anonymous No.64070551 [Report] >>64073321
>>64063387
>squad level DMR
>bolt action
The soviets came up with the SVD 60 years and and you're still talking about bolt guns?
Anonymous No.64070678 [Report] >>64083571 >>64083728
280 British was sort of a gen 1 intermediate cartridge like 7.62x39 and 7.92 Kurz, where it was more or less a vertically squashed down version of the full power cartridge (though 280 has no such parent cartridge). Everyone learned pretty quickly that this is a terrible way to go about things because too many sacrifices in performance are made for only a modest decrease in weight and recoil. Gen 2 intermediates I’d consider to be the isometrically scaled down ones like 5.56 and 5.45.

The only nice thing that can be said about the British vis a vis firearms and cartridge design is that the 4.85x49mm was a gangster cartridge and it should have been selected as the standard NATO cartridge.

>>64063159
>retard pressure to make up for capacity loss

This retard pressure you bemoan is effectively an increase in energy density. Probably the biggest advancement in firearms/cartridge tech of this century desu.
>but they reduced the pressure
IIRC this was because of idiosyncrasies with the bullet’s design, that it could not withstand such high acceleration without the steel tip moving out of alignment with the rest of the bullet. It’s a brainlet solution to reduce the pressure/velocity though - they should design a better bullet.

>>64062220
Bullet looks a hair skinnier than the 6.8. The bottom cartridge is doubtless a 6.5 creedmoor.
Anonymous No.64070694 [Report] >>64073255
>>64061877
We got sick of having to shoot people three or four times to kill them. The spear is deadlier and it's a lot faster of a bullet than 308 which is gonna make for some impressive gut shots
Anonymous No.64070699 [Report] >>64087068
>>64063159
It's about shots per kill. The army knows they're just gonna be smokin rags with it. The troops hated 556 for not being able to shoot people dead fast enough 6.8 can do it in one to two hits center mass where 556 needed four to five sometimes
Anonymous No.64070818 [Report] >>64072379
>>64070397
Not to mention it’s much lighter.

Really what matters is a flat trajectory with a long maximum point blank range, and adequate wounding characteristics at the boundaries of max practical range aka 300 yards, with the minimum weight and recoil penalty. The lighter cartridge will always win.

My main criticism of 5.56 is that either a longer MPBR could be achieved for the same weight, or the cartridge can be made even lighter. This was true years ago and it’s even more true today with NAS3 cases and 80kpsi.
Anonymous No.64070827 [Report] >>64071456
>>64068160
Oi m8 we tried to tell you, yeah, innit bruv!

>>64067529
>only slightly better performing

Nah. It’s got more energy AND a smaller frontal area AND a finer ogive. It’s a comprehensive improvement over 308. But nobody is really contesting that. the army seems to be under the impression that 6.8 is a sound replacement for 5.56.
Anonymous No.64071456 [Report] >>64071830
>>64070827
>AND a finer ogive
Barely. It's the same length, the only difference is .031" diameter. It's not like 6.5 Creedmoor, which has both a .044" smaller diameter and a .125" longer ogive.
Anonymous No.64071830 [Report] >>64072296
>>64071456
>barely

Yeah, true. 2.6 vs 2.88 cals. It’s not nothing though, you’d be surprised how big a difference in form factor that extra ~0.3 cals can make. But that’s only if you’re truly making good use of the ogive with proper geometry. Anyway, the 6.8x51 could still benefit immensely from a shorter case and longer bullet, that’s just what you want in what is ostensibly a long-range cartridge. I know that optimizing for max retained energy at 300 yards requires about half the COAL to be allocated to bullet length, so 600+ yards wants Atleast that too. Up close performance would suffer a bit though, but if it’s not defeating armor already, then idk if it even matters.
Anonymous No.64071838 [Report] >>64072379
556 will never go anywhere. They've tried replacing it multiple times and its why we have 77gr now. Any other opinion is uninformed or cope
Anonymous No.64072296 [Report]
>>64071830
>Yeah, true. 2.6 vs 2.88 cals. It’s not nothing though, you’d be surprised how big a difference in form factor that extra ~0.3 cals can make.
.264 vs .277
Anonymous No.64072379 [Report] >>64073404
>>64070397
>5.56mm has flatter trajectory...
>...and significantly better wounding characteristics.
>>64070818
>Really what matters is a flat trajectory with a long maximum point blank range, and adequate wounding characteristics
According to these 2 posts, 6mm ARC is the future.

>>64071838
>its why we have 77gr now.
In about a century we'll have 90-108 gr with 6mm ARC (5.56 will still be around for poor countries using last gen tech). Mark my words. LOL
Anonymous No.64073255 [Report] >>64073397
>>64070694
Go to bed, Jeff Cooper.
Anonymous No.64073297 [Report] >>64076826
>>64061178 (OP)
.280 british weighed 1 gram less than 6.5 carcano and had 40% worse ballistic performance
Anonymous No.64073321 [Report] >>64076826
>>64070551
svd was a piece of shit, what's your point slavaboo?
Anonymous No.64073397 [Report] >>64073550
>>64073255
Lmao. If Jeff got his way we’d all be hauling around rifles in like 50 Beowulf.
Anonymous No.64073404 [Report] >>64073547
>>64072379
>6 arc is the future

The external ballistics of 6ARC, yes. But Scale it down to 5.56, then crank up the pressure. That’s what we’ll be shooting on mars.
Anonymous No.64073547 [Report] >>64073597 >>64077317
>>64073404
>The external ballistics of 6ARC, yes. But Scale it down to 5.56
That's impossible, it'd retain it's flatness but it would lose it's ballistic coefficient, energy, etc. by being scaled down and we'd end up with a round that has inferior ballistics and wounding.
Anonymous No.64073550 [Report] >>64076860
>>64073397
He actually rejected the powerful stuff. Preferred .308 to 30-06, wanted 10mm and .41 magnum to be downloaded to .40 S&W levels, etc.
Anonymous No.64073561 [Report] >>64073588
>>64062352
>>DMR cartridge than we're currently using?
>.280 British
The United States is not using the .280 British as its current DMR cartridge.
Anonymous No.64073564 [Report] >>64076897
>>64061178 (OP)
are these the shitty 80k psi rounds that burn out a barrel in 5 boxes of ammo?
Anonymous No.64073584 [Report] >>64076899
>>64068407
one area I'm uncertain about is the effectiveness of the suppressor. 277 is fucking loud. it feels like 13 inches plus suppressor is still obnoxiously loud. what's the db rating on the new cans?
Anonymous No.64073588 [Report] >>64074099
>>64073561
>The United States is not using the .280 British as its current DMR cartridge.
I never said it was, you retarded fuck. The .280 British is only 0.3" shorter than .308 and 6.8x51mm despite being much weaker than some modern intermediate cartridges like 6.5 Grendel or the superior 6mm ARC. Stop shilling literal garbage.
Anonymous No.64073597 [Report]
>>64073547
BC would increase a bit if you used the same bullet length. You can even afford to make it a hair shorter without affecting BC vs 6ARC

and you don’t need more energy than 5.56 already has. 1300ft*lbs at the muzzle, paired with a G7 of ~0.2 is probably the ideal 0-300yd cartridge. ~850ft*lbs retained at 300 yards. That’s pretty sick.
Anonymous No.64074099 [Report] >>64074477
>>64073588
>>64062352

Look at this fucking thing! How much lighter is it than 308? Like 5 grains from the case, 10 grains from the bullet, 5 grains from propellant? “Intermediate cartridge” my ass, that thing is a slightly nerfed full power cartridge. The principal reason for the switch to intermediates was light cartridge weight and useful full auto, qualities the 280 British does not shine in. And it was apparently developed as part of an “ideal cartridge” program. I’ll give them credit for the ample ogive space, that’s about the one benefit it has over 5.56.

Anyways, the 6mm SAW in picrel should’ve gone places. It’s a solid single-caliber solution.
Anonymous No.64074477 [Report] >>64074590
>>64074099
>Look at this fucking thing! How much lighter is it than 308? Like 5 grains from the case, 10 grains from the bullet, 5 grains from propellant? “Intermediate cartridge” my ass, that thing is a slightly nerfed full power cartridge.
Appearance isn't everything, moron. They were severely downgraded because the British were looking for a low recoil cartridge. Let's look at numbers.

.280 British performance
139 gr Ball, 2,270 ft/s, 1,595 ft/lbf
140 gr Ball, 2,549 ft/s, 2,019 ft/lbf

6.5 Grendel performance:
90 gr Speer TNT, 2,880 ft/s, 1,658 ft/lbf
108 gr Scenar, 2,790 ft/s, 1,866 ft/lbf
123 gr Sierra Matchking, 2,650 ft/s, 1,917 ft/lbf
Congrats, your weak-as-hell cartridge matches a smaller, more efficient cartridge; now look at this.

6mm ARC performance:
103 gr ELD-X Precision Hunter, 2,800.0 ft/s, 1,792 ft/lbf
108 gr ELD Match, 2,750 ft/s, 1,814 ft/lbf

Now, the numbers don't lie. Third time's the charm; your worthless, dogshit, pathetic .280 cartridge is weaker than an intermediate cartridge. Its large size, earning such pathetic velocity, only proves that it wasn't efficient either, and the country that invented it knew that as well since they stopped developing .280 British and were going forwards with .270 British instead (this was before they were forced by NATO to adopt 5.56x45mm). You got it this time, you imbecile?
Anonymous No.64074590 [Report]
>>64074477
Reading. Comprehension. Dumbass. I am CRITCISING the 280 for being a piece of shit. How could you possibly read that post of mine and conclude that I am singing its praises?

(Btw that 1595ft*lbs figure must be the aluminum-cased load, loaded to lower that normal pressures)

You’re exalting the 6.5 grendel in this thread. Might you be the same guy who asked if we’re brothers when I also complimented its configuration a few months back?
Anonymous No.64074626 [Report]
>>64063387
>it has terrible terminal ballistics, at common hunting distances it just zips right through animals
Holy shit you're a fucking moron, stopped reading right there
Anonymous No.64074649 [Report]
>>64061178 (OP)
The .280 British is nothing like the .277 Fury. The .277 is more .308 Winchester.
Anonymous No.64076675 [Report]
>>64061178 (OP)
This is just worse 556, why didn't they adopt 11.5 PSA ARs?
Anonymous No.64076826 [Report]
>>64073297
It's an impressively subpar cartridge, it's always hilarious watching Bongaboos cry about how the EM2 was the perfect infantry rifle, but hecking Studler and Churchil ruined everything.

>>64073321
It was passable for 1960s slav technology, but his point is more that they had the right idea with a semi-automatic DMR for extending the reach of the squad.
Anonymous No.64076860 [Report]
>>64073550
Jeff Cooper argued that semi-automatic and select-fire carbines in .44 Auto Mag Pistol and .45 Winchester Magnum would be a critical and necessary improvement over 5.56x45mm, 5.45x39mm, and 7.62x39mm, and that was his bargaining logic for not being able to go back to 7.62x51mm NATO, which is what he desperately wanted.
A large bore Magnum handgun cartridge in a semi-auto carbine would be one of the sickest hog rifles imaginable (in the lightweight and modest recoiling end anyway), but on the subject of infantry rifles he was a boomerific fuddlord at best, and a complete fucking crackpot at worst.
Anonymous No.64076897 [Report] >>64077761
>>64073564
No, that's the .243Win/.270Rem style "low" pressure ones which burn out a barrel in about 5000rds. Well, in a target shooting and hunting context, that's what you end up with for the expected volume of use, and that's years of shooting, it'd probably be a fair bit faster with frequent rapid fire.

The hyper pressure stuff has a two-piece case with a steel head (which sometimes likes to pop off when you extract), at 85000psi the lifespan is going to be dramatically shorter than 5000rds, I would be surprised if it was half that. Remember also, you're supposed to do infantry combat and suppressive fire with .277 Furry, so you're much rougher on it in the short term than a hunting rifle.

I would not be surprised if it turns out that the bores on these guns are completely busted after only 2000rds, and this farce is STILL the least of the NGSW program's problems.
Anonymous No.64076899 [Report]
>>64073584
Here's Sig's SLH suppressor. The SLX suppressor on the M7 is optimized for lower backpressure at the cost of noise reduction.
Anonymous No.64077069 [Report] >>64077099 >>64077866
A friendly reminder that in full power rifle cartridges 6.8x51 is superior in every metric and the only reason it will not outright replace 7.62x51 is due to institutional inertia and the sheer amount of functional firearms and ammunition in that caliber.

At least until the 7.62x51 guns wear out.
Anonymous No.64077099 [Report] >>64077120
>>64077069
The 7.62 guns will be replaced by 8.6x63, which is maybe a little less retarded than replacing 5.56x45 with 7.62x51.
Anonymous No.64077120 [Report] >>64077811 >>64077885
>>64077099
.338 guns are an M2 replacement
Anonymous No.64077317 [Report] >>64078071
>>64073547
>hasn't heard of .224 Valkyrie
Anonymous No.64077761 [Report] >>64077866 >>64083552
>>64076897
>would not be surprised if it turns out that the bores on these guns are completely busted after only 2000rds
Sig claims that XM7 will tolerate ~10000 rds
lmao
Anonymous No.64077811 [Report]
>>64077120
The Army is not looking for an M2 replacement, they're looking for an M240 replacement. They're already replacing the M2010 with the Mk.22 in .300NM.
Anonymous No.64077866 [Report]
>>64077069
Delusion. The true battlerifle and machinegun cartridge for the future is 7x51mm NATO.

>>64077761
Sig are in the habit of making all kinds of bold and grandiose claims.
Anonymous No.64077885 [Report]
>>64077120
Anonymous No.64078006 [Report]
>>64061178 (OP)
Box looks like it was designed for a fuckin tacky graphics card
Anonymous No.64078031 [Report] >>64078038 >>64078042 >>64088162
Anonymous No.64078038 [Report] >>64078078
>>64078031
>That pitifully small ammo pouch
Might as well have just made it mag fed.
Anonymous No.64078042 [Report]
>>64078031
What the fuck were they thinking
Anonymous No.64078071 [Report] >>64079272 >>64082809
>>64077317
You mean the cartridge inferior to 6mm ARC that was also famous for breaking it's proprietary AR 15 bolts. Yeah, I've heard of it; it got replaced by the superior 6mm ARC.
Anonymous No.64078078 [Report]
>>64078038
a bigger pouch would make it melt the barrel, which is fixed in place and can't be quickly replaced, please understand.
Anonymous No.64078083 [Report] >>64078190
>>64061877
>>which is irrelevant because none of our adversaries even issue body armor at scale
surely the chinks do by now?
Anonymous No.64078190 [Report] >>64096084
>>64078083
Both China and Russia only issue armor to a few select units like their SF, everyone else has to either go to battle without armor or just pay for some with their own money.
Anonymous No.64079272 [Report] >>64079293
>>64078071
How can you call out 224 Valkyrie’s bolt strength when the 6ARC has both more bolt thrust and a weaker bolt? Weird argument to make in favor of 6ARC. 6ARC and any other cartridge that shares its case head are always going to have a shorter bolt life than those cartridges based on the 6.8SPC.

And I’m not even a fanboy of either cartridge
Anonymous No.64079293 [Report] >>64081490
>>64079272
>How can you call out 224 Valkyrie’s bolt strength when the 6ARC has both more bolt thrust and a weaker bolt? Weird argument to make in favor of 6ARC.
Fair enough, the round I have high expectations for can have that issue as well. However, 6mm ARC fans aren't worried because now bulkier proprietary uppers and bolts are coming out for it. .224 Valk on the other hand, didn't even last long enough on the market for that to happen.
Anonymous No.64081490 [Report] >>64083812
>>64079293
>bulkier proprietary uppers and bolts [for 6ARC]

Tbh I don’t even think that’s necessary. POF’s revolution series of guns are chambered in 308 but with the same bolt diameter as a 5.56 (I think this is true for the ruger SFAR too). They use a fancy alloy called Aermet. Conclusion: a 5.56-sized bolt can be made to withstand the bolt thrust of a 308.

The (semi) proprietary lowers that accept 6ARC pmags are a good idea though. They were originally made for 6.8SPC pmags but that cartridge is now dead, and they’ve found new life as 6ARC hosts.
Anonymous No.64082809 [Report] >>64083537
>>64078071
The whole point of the 6.8 SPC/.224 Valkyrie bolt face is that it's compatible with an AR-15-sized bolt. Maybe there were a few machined .223 bolts that broke, but I haven't heard of any such thing. The vast majority of the complaints about .224 Valkyrie were regarding long range accuracy and tolerances of seating depth and chamber leade, but those problems only crop up in long range shooting competitions.

The .220 Russian bolt face has never been compatible with AR-15 sized bolts regardless of how many times it's been shilled by various parties over the years. You NEED a larger bolt to safely use it, at which point you should be using a WSSM or any of the .308-derived BR cartridges.
Anonymous No.64083537 [Report] >>64083683 >>64083986 >>64084502
>>64082809
The 6ARC (and 6.5 grendel) should’ve been based on the SPC case. Slightly smaller case capacity but loaded to higher pressures. Would’ve been virtually the same thing performance-wise. Plus LWRC 6.8-spec receivers already exist as well as 6.8 Pmags. 338ARC never would’ve been a thing cause 338 spectre conveniently already exists for people who want an efficient SBR upper for their non-standard lower.

As a matter of fact, this is what the 6.8SPC should’ve been from its inception. The two problems with it are too wide a caliber and too long a case. Cut it down slightly and reduce it to 6mm and that’s a winning cartridge. IIRC some army guys set out to create a better long range cartridge than 5.56 and ended up with the hunk of shit known as 6.8SPC with a *worse* trajectory than 5.56. If they got it right from the outset, who knows, maybe we’d all be shooting 6mmSPC now.
Anonymous No.64083552 [Report]
>>64077761
they also claim that the P320 can never fire without pulling the trigger.
Anonymous No.64083562 [Report]
>>64061178 (OP)
>Better late than never I guess.

*FAL, EM-1, CETME A & 7.92×41mm CETME weeping in the corner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mby4hOq-DpI
Anonymous No.64083571 [Report] >>64083683
>>64070678
>Everyone learned pretty quickly that this is a terrible way to go about things because too many sacrifices in performance are made for only a modest decrease in weight and recoil

Barrel life gains over .308 were enough to justify it in-itself. Ordinance Fudd conspirators running seditious levels of fuddery retarded NATO small arms by a decade(s), and it never ought've taken Vietnam to A-B test the tomfoolery of .308.
Anonymous No.64083575 [Report] >>64083792
>>64061178 (OP)
Glowniggas will do anything but adopt an AR with a longer barrel, and then wonder why 556 performs like shit in their retarded manlet guns
Anonymous No.64083683 [Report] >>64083758 >>64083990
>>64083537
>The 6ARC (and 6.5 grendel) should’ve been based on the SPC case.
Hey, when you responded to him, you could have added NTA so he would have known it wasn't me (the guy he was responding to). Fuck 6.8 SPC; the only thing it's known for is being weaker than 6.5 Grendel. If you want a round like that in 6mm, then it already exists; it's called 6mm MAX, and all it's known for is being weaker than 6mm ARC.

>>64083571
>Barrel life gains over .308 were enough to justify it in-itself.
The 8,000-10,000 round barrel of a .308 not good enough for you? From now on you can only shoot 9mm PCC as your long guns. LOL
Anonymous No.64083728 [Report] >>64083758
>>64070678
>This retard pressure you bemoan is effectively an increase in energy density. Probably the biggest advancement in firearms/cartridge tech of this century desu.
Bubba's Pissin' Hot loads are not a new development, and neither are steel/brass hybrid cases designed to withstand them.
Anonymous No.64083758 [Report] >>64083981 >>64084055
>>64083728
First time it’s mass produced at non prohibitive prices. And if this was possible before, well why did we wait this long for 80kpsi?

>>64083683
>shouldve added NTA

Yeah I should have, my bad

I’m not fan of 6.8SPC btw. Did my post come off as though I am?

>6MAX
Same problem as the 6.8SPC - case is too long, caliber is too big. Does it even load in 30rd 5.56 mags? I know the case head is ever so slightly wider and there is less of a taper. Seems like it would be a problem above a certain capacity.
Anonymous No.64083780 [Report]
>>64061178 (OP)
> piss weak .280 british has anything to do with 6.8x51
Anonymous No.64083792 [Report]
>>64083575
Turns out there's a good reason regular infantry were given rifles instead of carbines, who would've guessed increased range is a nice thing to have?
Anonymous No.64083812 [Report] >>64083950
>>64081490
>The (semi) proprietary lowers that accept 6ARC pmags are a good idea though.
It's stupid idea.
If you proprietary mags and lowers you can walk away from ar-15 and make betteryou can make "super" 5.56. ie 5.56 case geometry dash uth long ogive VLD bullet, this cartridge would be massive improvement over 5.56 with zero penalties to weight and capacity and this gun would be reverse compitable with legacy 5.56x45, that is huge plus for adoption.
Anonymous No.64083950 [Report]
>>64083812
Well, only the lower is proprietary-ish (-ish because the spec is open source). It still needs to mesh with the upper so the magwell depth can’t change. That said, I am the biggest proponent of a super 5.56 loaded with VLDs. A better execution of a proprietary lower would be desert tech style quad stacks loaded with super 5.56 (shorter case though).
Anonymous No.64083981 [Report]
>>64083758
>Does it even load in 30rd 5.56 mags?
They both require proprietray mags, but there are 30 rounders. It's basically a failed attempt to replicate 6mm ARC performance but with straight mags rather than curved mags; like 6.8 SPC, it failed to match its competitor performance-wise despite "being easier to transport and carry".
Anonymous No.64083986 [Report]
>>64083537
>tfw no factory 6mm-.224 Valkyrie
Why live?
Anonymous No.64083990 [Report] >>64084001
>>64083683
6mm MAX is a dogshit cartridge that doesn't do anything, why do you keep shilling it? Let it die, already.
Anonymous No.64084001 [Report] >>64084015
>>64083990
You are illiterate. I wasn't shilling it. The very comment you are responding to is pointing out how it's weaker than the cartridge it wanted to compete against.
Anonymous No.64084015 [Report] >>64084168
>>64084001
And yet you're the one guy that keeps bringing it up. I know it's you because no one else in the entire world gives enough of a shit about it to bother to bring it up.
Anonymous No.64084055 [Report] >>64084094 >>64084506 >>64086942 >>64086973 >>64087002
>>64083758
>And if this was possible before, well why did we wait this long for 80kpsi?
Juice isn't worth the squeeze, as the Army is currently finding out.
Anonymous No.64084094 [Report]
>>64084055
Did these Army niggers do ANY durability testing on the rifle they spent hundreds of millions on??
Anonymous No.64084168 [Report]
>>64084015
>And yet you're the one guy that keeps bringing it up.
I've mentioned it once in 2023 (we were talking about PSI) and once now (we were briefly discussing a casing's shape), you illiterate moron. Sounds like you're obsessed since you throw a temper tantrum whenever someone even mentions it. LOL

Did a guy who shoots a cartridge different from 5.56 fuck your mother or something?
Anonymous No.64084502 [Report] >>64096084
>>64083537
>IIRC some army guys set out to create a better long range cartridge than 5.56
The actual story is that the M855 zipping through skinnies at close range phenomenon was found to be caused by "fleet yaw" and out of several bullet diameters put through JSWB-IPT testing 6.8mm was the one least affected by it.
When compared to 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm and 7.62mm the 6.8 offered the best combo in terms of reliability, accuracy and terminal performance. So the whole thing was about close quarters fighting first, and figuring out the rest afterwards.
What followed was an issue with the SPC chamber specs being submitted with incorrect dimensions to SAAMI spec not once but TWICE, meaning that 6.8 SPC cartridges loaded to the originally intended pressures showed signs of overpressure like primers popping out. In the end most factory loaded ammo was underpowered and even though alternate chambers were designed for it, by then it was too little too late.
Anonymous No.64084506 [Report]
>>64084055
>nusig
oh noes
Anonymous No.64086942 [Report]
>>64084055
LMAO, I WAS FUCKING RIGHT, THESE GARBAGERODS ARE FUCKING SHOT OUT BY 2000RDS
Anonymous No.64086973 [Report] >>64087196 >>64101507
>>64084055
I wonder if this is why soldiers are complaining about the guns shooting 6MOA
Anonymous No.64087002 [Report] >>64087942
>>64084055
wtf siggers told me these things had hyperalloy barrels reverse engineered from UFO hulls that could go a million billion 120k psi rounds without degrading
Anonymous No.64087068 [Report]
>>64070699
I understand 5.56 becomes limited out at 300 meter+
So they decided to replace .308 with .270 Winchester ShortMag
At the end of the day trying to fit all demands in the kitchen sink gave a horrible rifle, horrible cartridge, and reduced unit effectiveness.
Anonymous No.64087196 [Report] >>64101507
>>64086973
Brand new ones shoot 3 MOA with match ammo the Army isn't buying, so I don't think it's unexpected that bulk ammo in a shot out barrel will cause accuracy to drop off.
Anonymous No.64087942 [Report] >>64088139
>>64087002
>UFO hulls
>million billion 120kpsi

Lol’d

But you know there’s something closer to that than sig’s barrels. They used to make two-part m60 barrels with a stellite inner liner for the chamber and first couple inches of rifling. It was very strong stuff and extended barrel life. It’s just impossible to make for under like 2 grand a barrel. Perhaps that ought to be explored to make 80kpsi viable. Until then, 80kpsi could be limited to cartridges with a low overbore ratio (300 blackout, pistol cartridges, etc), and those should have acceptable barrel lives.
Anonymous No.64088139 [Report] >>64088647
>>64087942
Yeah someone on afrcom posted a government purchase order for those stellite lined 60 barrels and they were paying about $3500 each for them in early 80s money.
Anonymous No.64088162 [Report] >>64088653
>>64078031
How does the quick change barrel system work on this weapon?
Anonymous No.64088225 [Report]
>>64065603
i hate anime but this is funny
Anonymous No.64088647 [Report] >>64090152
>>64088139
Fuck that’s right, that was 80s money. That’s the equivalent of $10k today. Is it really that hard to make a stellite liner? It’s basically just a cylinder with some helixes cut on the inside.
Anonymous No.64088653 [Report] >>64088698
>>64088162
It doesn’t
Anonymous No.64088698 [Report] >>64088766
>>64088653
Why does the super high pressure barrel-eroder machinegun not have a QCB???
Anonymous No.64088766 [Report]
>>64088698
I really couldn’t tell you.
Anonymous No.64088782 [Report] >>64088816 >>64089146
>>64063216
>So are these going to be impossible to reload or what?
The most interesting thing about the round is the casing construction. .277 sucks donkey dick.

https://sobchaksecurity.substack.com/p/86-blackout-p-musing
Anonymous No.64088816 [Report] >>64088977
>>64088782
You niggers laughed at me and called me names when I remarked that 8.6 blackout has the potential to be the most versatile rifle cartridge ever. That it just needed 80kpsi magic to be both a true scout rifle cartridge and a CETME-style intermediate cartridge.

I hate all of you.
Anonymous No.64088977 [Report] >>64089004
>>64088816
>I hate all of you.
I love you. Which is why I post for my bowlers about 8.6
Anonymous No.64089004 [Report] >>64092545
>>64088977
Is that your substack?
Anonymous No.64089146 [Report] >>64089306 >>64092545
>>64088782
>8.6 will be more efficient out of a short barrel than say 308, and will retain more rotational energy downrange
>retain more rotational energy downrange
lmao I can't believe people actually bought this retarded horseshit about muh rotational energy. I blame the school system.
Anonymous No.64089170 [Report]
>>64061178 (OP)
Imagine if the Brits finished the .276 Enfield sooner and this fucker was actually chambered in 276 and replaced the Lee-Enfield proper for the 1st World War, and the 303 British was killed when it should have been
Anonymous No.64089306 [Report] >>64090168
>>64089146
Kek. Yeah, rotational energy sounds impressive until you realize that 8.6 blackout’s is only about 5% of total kinetic energy, even with the insane twist rate. It’s basically nothing. Discreet Ballistics used to have a neat calculator where one of the outputs was rotational energy, but the website seems to be down.

What I did find impressive though was the way bullets expanded in gel spinning that fast. Picrel. Could diameters like this be duplicated from identical bullets at slower twist rates?
Anonymous No.64090152 [Report]
>>64088647
>Is it really that hard to make a stellite liner?
The results I got via google fu said that the stellite liner is cast, drilled, ground/honed into final dimensions and press-fit into the barrel with the rifling lined up with an alignment gauge.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090813162526/http://machinedesign.com/article/straighter-shooter-0308
So it's probably a PITA to do, but doable - however it's a niche use so the unit cost is sky high. If barrels got stellite liners just like they get chrome lining it would probably get cheaper by an order of magnitude.
They also had to drill, ream and grind the chamber, bore and rifling into that bitch. With today's EDM it would probably be more feasible than burning out drills and reamers in a block of adamantium bullshit.
Anonymous No.64090168 [Report] >>64090839
>>64089306
Sure, just give up penetration in exchange for diameter.
Anonymous No.64090839 [Report] >>64091348 >>64091649
>>64090168
I’m calling bullshit on those Lehighs. Somebody manually expanded the petals, one by one, with a pair of pliers or something. 0 chance they’re all unfolding to 90 degrees and not one degree more in gel. It’s more likely they’d break off or peel back all the way until they’re touching the shank (not very wide expansion)
Anonymous No.64091348 [Report]
>>64090839
Yeah Lehigh is a gimmicky bullshit company so that's a safe assumption.
Anonymous No.64091649 [Report]
>>64090839
Mind that you can't properly see the angle because the picture is taken from above.
Most likely it's cherry picking and sizing the block, because most do seem to bend roughly 90º and one of the petals gets mangled. So getting a few to show clean petals and close enough to 90º that they look pretty and uniform when photographed from above isn't that hard.
Anonymous No.64092416 [Report] >>64092443 >>64093247
>>64062195
>So, you are telling me it's shorter than the DMR cartridge than we're currently using?
No, no one told you that.
>Than it's more powerful?
Yes, significantly.
>But the higher velocity?
Yes, significantly higher
Barrel life is approximately 20k, and they are easily replaceable
Anonymous No.64092443 [Report] >>64092460
>>64092416
>Barrel life is approximately 20k, and they are easily replaceable
lol
lmao
Anonymous No.64092460 [Report] >>64096059
>>64092443
Do me a favor real quick and google what barrel life is on a typical AR-10 shooting M80.
Anonymous No.64092545 [Report]
>>64089004
No. But it is a solid substack. I found it when I started dorking out on subsonic ballistics.

>>64089146
You can also reload the casings for .308 if you're going to be this autistic.
Anonymous No.64093247 [Report]
>>64092416
>Barrel life is approximately 20k
sigger lies
Anonymous No.64093253 [Report] >>64093942 >>64095408
>>64066579
so a few producers will hold a monopoly on manufacturing them
all i care is that they're lighter, but is it true they can handle hotter loads?
Anonymous No.64093942 [Report]
>>64093253
Yeah they handle "hotter" loads because the drawing of a brass casing uses a die that's tapered, basically a truncated cone on the tip, and the case wall near the case head is thicker than in the mid point of the case. The bimetal cases are way more straight walled all the way up to the case head which means the case actually has higher internal volume. You can load more powder and get more energy without over-pressuring the case.
Anonymous No.64095408 [Report]
>>64093253
>can they handle hotter loads

There was a bubba once who loaded his 9mm NAS3 cases to higher and higher pressures and shot them from his Glock. I know he got to 70k without issue but not sure about anything above that. And those are shell shock’s pistol cases. The rifle cases are made of stronger alloys. aluminum base vs steel base IIRC. lighter case weight and higher energy capacity both improve the same quantity - energy per unit case mass. It’s a huge deal, possibly revolutionary. If NAS3 cases can be made to withstand 80kpsi, then a 5.56 analog can be made that is scarcely heavier than a 5.7x28. Light for caliber VLD bullets would also decrease cartridge weight without affecting BC/external ballistics. Quad stack mags reduce weight further via lighter magazines (per capacity). All of a sudden, 350+ round combat loads with no weight penalty become possible. Or alternatively, 5.56 can be replaced with a unified ~2,000ft*lb cartridge like 6mm Optimum/6x45SAW for no weight penalty.

Plus the cases are cheap as shit. Shell shock sells 5.56 cases in bulk for like 20 cents a pop. 9mm cases are like 12 cents.
Anonymous No.64096059 [Report] >>64096072
>>64092460
You should be able to get about 10000rds out of an AR10 shooting .308, which is not what you're going to get out of the XM7 even if you aren't shooting the rapeloads, not even half that much.
Anonymous No.64096072 [Report]
>>64096059
source?
Anonymous No.64096084 [Report] >>64096095
>>64078190
This is wrong. The PLAA alone ordered over a million ceramic Lvl 4 plate sets circa 2020.

>>64084502
Worrying about yaw for fragmentation is obsolete due to M855A1 which is not yaw dependent.
Anonymous No.64096087 [Report] >>64096109 >>64096114
one segment of the barrel gets excessive wear and that means scrap the whole project
Anonymous No.64096095 [Report] >>64096108
>>64096084
>This is wrong. The PLAA alone ordered over a million ceramic Lvl 4 plate sets circa 2020.
Then why aren't they using them in the skirmishes they've had with their neighboring countries?
Anonymous No.64096108 [Report]
>>64096095
They have. Look at a random PAP member on the border units, moron boomer. It's not 1992 anymore. Pull your insecure head out of your ass and read some news from the past few years.
Anonymous No.64096109 [Report]
>>64096087
The NGSW as a concept:
>it's literally fine for the rifle to be doctrinally obsolete
>it's literally fine for grunts to find no utility or purpose for the supposed much longer range
>it's literally fine for the ammo to weigh twice as much for no benefit at all
>it's literally fine for the gun to recoil twice as much for no benefit at all
>it's literally fine for the barrel to eat itself

Sig's execution of the NGSW:
>it's literally fine for the barrels to be crooked
>it's literally fine for the smart targeting scope to not actually work
>it's literally fine for the barrel to eat itself even faster
>it's literally fine for the support weapon to not extract

The barrel wear is one the lower end of the problem here, it's just one of the funny ones because Sig figured out how to achieve it the worst.
Anonymous No.64096114 [Report] >>64096130
>>64096087
Will Sig reinforce the rifling there somehow for the XM7E1, or what? You're looking at a bit of a zero sum game here, if part of the bore gets that brundlefucked, that tends to affect your precision anyway even if the rest of the bore is still fine.
Anonymous No.64096130 [Report] >>64096142 >>64096385
>>64096114
the barrel wear at a specific point is probably an ammo issue
Anonymous No.64096142 [Report] >>64096163
>>64096130
Yeah, it's called using a fucking full-sized 6.8mm cartridge for a fucking battle rifle, that's the ammunition issue.
Anonymous No.64096163 [Report] >>64096175
>>64096142
swearing doesnt make you sound more correct
Anonymous No.64096175 [Report]
>>64096163
The swearing isn't the part which makes me correct, no, you little faggot, you.
Anonymous No.64096322 [Report] >>64096358
7mm rem mag was always the right option.
Anonymous No.64096358 [Report] >>64096675 >>64096683
>>64096322
I think that if any 7mm cartridge was gonna be looked at, I would look at a 7mm counterpart to 7.62x51mm NATO, see if that's just a bit better.
Anonymous No.64096385 [Report]
>>64096130
Usually when this happens to 6mm-ish hunting rifles and stuff, it's the throat of the bore which is eroding, which is why accuracy goes to shit on those after they've done their 5000rds, even if the rest of the barrel and the rifling is still in pretty good condition.

There really isn't any free lunch here, you could do something like Stellite alloy liners, like was done on the M60E3 and M2HB barrels, but that shit is NOT cheap, and is specifically done to improve the lifespan of machineguns which are expected to lay down heavy fire on the regular.

Stellite lined barrels are very expensive even today. Unless there's some revolutions in metallurgy to economize stuff like that, or finding a less expensive alternative, I really don't think we're gonna get away from things like these eating rifle barrels too quickly for military service.
That might happen too, but who knows when that is? That could be 80 years into the future for all we know, and even if that happens I would much rather insist to apply high pressures like these to a proper intermediate cartridge in the 5mm to 6mm range, so you can have that light ammo and light recoil necessary for fire superiority.
Anonymous No.64096675 [Report] >>64096683 >>64099466
>>64096358
Moving to 7mm will result in a Lighter bullet, higher BC, higher velocity, but shorter barrel life and longer appropriate barrel length for the same energy. That’s about it. Tbh I think an adequate way of improving 308 would be to cut the case down about 0.3” and use much finer bullets. Also raise the pressure. It’s not as much a barrel burner as 6.8x51, but yes it will come at the cost of a bit of barrel life. Picrel is hornady’s 750gr .510 A-Max. It is 5 calibers long. Scaling it down to 308 actaully gives you a really sensible bullet length to pair with the 2.8” COAL - a little longer than half the total length of the cartridge. As for mass and BC, if you made it completely out of steel (with a copper jacket) the way early experimental EPR bullets were made, it’s mass should be right around 150gr and BC should be around 0.26 (i7ff=0.85, but this can be improved still). Currently the m80a1 only has a BC of 0.19, which is dogshit, that’s the BC of 77g 5.56. My improved version would start off with less velocity and energy (at the same 60kpsi) but would overtake m80a1 within 100-200 yards. Don’t feel like firing up the external ballistics computer to say for certain so my estimate will have to do. Fight me.
Anonymous No.64096683 [Report] >>64096873
>>64096358
>>64096675(me)

I forgot to state the obvious for a 7mm version of 308. That is that it’s just 6.8x51. Literally the same thing but the bullet is 2 human hairs wider (0.007”)
Anonymous No.64096873 [Report] >>64096907 >>64101954
>>64096683
>I forgot to state the obvious for a 7mm version of 308. That is that it’s just 6.8x51. Literally the same thing but the bullet is 2 human hairs wider (0.007”)
The worst part about 6.8x51mm is the unrealistic 80k PSI goal they set for themselves. They are destroying the guns chambered in it. If they lowered the pressure to 68-71k and lengthened the barrel to 14.5" (as opposed to those 11" standard models), then maybe we wouldn't see the guns destroy themselves so fast.
Anonymous No.64096885 [Report]
>>64065541
/thread
Anonymous No.64096907 [Report]
>>64096873
If there wasn’t such a severe restriction on the gun’s overall length, even a 20” barrel makes sense. They can still use 80kpsi but with a much smaller powder charge for the same velocity. Longer barrel life and a smaller and lighter cartridge case. Wins all over. It’s not really such a great idea to demand super short guns that are also capable of 1000+ yards. Long range guns really want to be, well, long. Maybe the dual caliber paradigm ought to be one cartridge for 1000+ yards paired with an appropriate gun of appropriate length, and the standard rifle should be something much shorter/smaller/lighter in a weaker (but still adequate) intermediate cartridge. Buuuuut I guess you can only wield one gun at a time so they really do need to have it all. The price is barrel life, but I’m guessing that’s acceptable. As long as you can get the gun to the armorer before there isn’t any rifling left in the barrel, that’s fine.
Anonymous No.64096931 [Report] >>64099484
>>64066552
> Which are irrelevant for the conversation

It’s so gay that we pretend war crimes and the rules of war are a real thing. You know any adversary that does not adhere to the Geneva conventions or The Hague declaration has an advantage over us. The game theory engine does NOT approve of our self-handicapping cuckery.
Anonymous No.64099466 [Report] >>64101734
>>64096675
I think the way to go for a 7.62 successor is to maximize downrange energy at the same weight. It's either going to be in a DMR or a machine gun, and either way recoil is not as big of a deal as it is for a carbine or automatic rifle.
Anonymous No.64099484 [Report]
>>64096931
not being able to use hollow points or pretend to be non-combatants is not going to be a deciding factor in modern warfare.
Anonymous No.64101507 [Report]
>>64086973
>>64087196
>buy fancy new scopes for $10k a pop so your infantry can hit targets at gorillion yards after you gave them all a rifle with the size, recoil and ammo capacity of a DMR
>it's 6 MOA so they still can't hit shit past 400m

lol
lmao
Anonymous No.64101734 [Report]
>>64099466
That’s precisely it. So a (slightly) heavier but much finer bullet with a much higher BC. This will eat into the powder column somewhat, so make up for the difference with higher chamber pressures. Bonus weight reduction: the case is shorter and thus lighter, a lot lighter if you’re using NAS3 cases.

There is a sweet spot for bullet length in maximizing energy at some given range. I’ve messed around with internal ballistics computers and found that the optimal bullet length for maximizing energy at 300yds is about half of total cartridge length for reasonable bullet densities (~10g/cc). For something like 1000yds, it’s gonna be a bit longer, but not too much longer.

And if you’re retaining way more energy than 308 at greater ranges, it begs the question of “is that all really necessary?”. Like what if we made the whole thing smaller, but still with a super high BC, and matched legacy-308 in energy at long ranges, just with a smaller and lighter cartridge with less muzzle energy and recoil?
Anonymous No.64101954 [Report]
>>64096873
I believe they have already lowered the pressure some, but I doubt it's doing enough.