Thread 64069163

>A direct hit to the central nervous system causing paralysis
>Blood loss causing eventual central nervous system shutdown
Fact: these are ultimately the only two things that will stop a person attacking you when adrenaline and determination is involved.
Fact: the only way to reliably increase the occurrence of both of these things is a larger diameter bullet.
Thus, a larger diameter bullet is the only thing that matters when talking about handgun chamberings.
>but muh energy! Muh velocity! Muh FBI penetration gel test!
Projectile energy does not equate to deadliness. Physics and math do not cause people to die. Humans are not made of ballistic gelatin.
>but muh capacity!
The average self-defense shooting is over after less than two rounds have been fired. Obsessing over handgun capacity is foolish.

It's time to stop coping and to stop insisting on half-baked alternatives to what was already perfect. The .45 ACP chambering simply makes the most sense, above all, for a handgun meant for self defense, and nothing comes close. It is widely available, inexpensive, and relatively easy to shoot and available in concealable firearms. It's simply perfect.

Let me guess, you "need" more?

>>64069163 (OP)
.45 acp and .30 super carry is all that should exist for carry handguns, .22lr for plinking too but not carry

>>64069163 (OP)
i will continue to use .32 acp

>>64069188
.32 ACP for pocket guns and .380 ACP for EDC-size guns are good alternatives. .45 remains the best option for open carry or backpack pistols.

I've fallen for the .45 propaganda due to recent posts like this. Considering buying a USP compact, but I need more opinions. I dont want a 1911

>>64069163 (OP)
>>ahhhh what? Physics and math is how we describe what is going on and how we are able to predict outcomes.
Is energy relevant in pistol calibers? Unless you are the guy designing the bullet to expand no, not really. Momentum and diameter or final expanded diameter can tell you a lot.
The best way to stop someone in a pistol fight is to hit them in the brain or spine. Followed pretty far behind by fainting caused by blood loss, lack of oxygen to the brain. The most effective way to do that is to send the largest diameter projectile in one side and completely out the other. Bonus points if it has jagged edges. An arrow broadhead with the same placement will cause fainting faster than a pistol wound will. Some people actually cannot grasp this concept.
Don't ditch the math. It's important and if correct it's predictive of outcomes. Energy numbers are not predictive in the case of storage by pistol round. Diameter, weight and velocity however are.

>The average self-defense shooting is over after less than two rounds have been fired
Firstly, that kind of ruins the entire rest of your post. Secondly, a higher capacity is more appropriate for unusual edge cases compared to a larger caliber

>>64069408
Not the op. Higher capacity is one of those cases you have to argue for. I would be hard pressed to come up with a situation that 14 shots with a magazine change in the middle would not be overkill. Especially if limited to slef defense situations. Grounded firmly in reality 7 is most likely more than one would need. The ability to change magazines in an auto kind of negates the high capacity argument to a very narrow hallway.
Im just going to mag dump as a defense plan is a viable argument for high capacity.

>>64069435
The issue I take with OPs points is that he seems to think that increasing the effective size of CNS targets by 2.5mm is a meaningful benefit, as opposed to having double the capacity to account for any number of circumstances.
>Grounded firmly in reality 7 is most likely more than one would need
I agree with this
>The ability to change magazines in an auto kind of negates the high capacity argument to a very narrow hallway
This I disagree with heartily

>>64069485
Increasing diameter would mildly increase the chance of a cns hit in close cases. That said non jagged expanding bullets tend to push things like veins and arteries aside so I don't see why we cant just throw the mild cns chance out of this argument.
That said the increase in diameter expanded or ball type ammo is pretty significant. There are plenty of examples where the 9mm doesn't expand to even where the .45 starts. Small holes aren't just on the surface. In this we are actually discussing something more in line with the volume of a cylinder. So a little is actually a lot more. A lot more tissue. A lot more exposure and chance of vein and arterial cutting. Large increases in blood loss.
Basically from what I have seen .40 or bigger is key.
>>I disagree
People do. Seems like a pretty prolonged situation one could have changed ones global position relative to the gunfire if you need to fire 30+ pistol rounds.

>>64069163 (OP)
>Thus, a larger diameter bullet is the only thing that matters when talking about handgun chamberings.
>but muh energy! Muh velocity! Muh FBI penetration

Physically cutting through critical soft bits does rely on adequate penetration, if you use a hollowpoint for an even larger cross section it needs enough velocity to expand. If your thesis were correct you'd see people carrying large caliber pistols after the adoption of smokeless powder.

I would like to expand general discourse about terminal effects and incapacitation to include reduced capacity (where it's very easy to show that energy-related remote wounding mechanisms both exist and matters a lot), but I can't be bothered because anyone who would ever listen to me already knows about MULES and shit, and probably thinks going from 5.56 to 6.8 is dope but that going from 9mm to 45 is probably a waste of time.

>>64069668
>If your thesis were correct you'd see people carrying large caliber pistols after the adoption of smokeless powder.
But we did anon. Most black powder pistols were 32 to 45 cal, and even today the most common pistol calibers are 40 and 45 cal, while smokeless powder took rifles from >50 cal being the norm to first 30 cal and then all the way down to 223.

Idk where you were going with this.

so has anyone made a 2 bore double action revolver?

.327 Magnum is the only round you need to gigaplink your enemies

>>64069163 (OP)
>after less than two rounds have been fired
We call this "one"

>>64069777
>the most common pistol calibers are 40 and 45 cal
This is obviously wrong, why even attempt such a clear lie?

>>64069163 (OP)
To explain why this is wrong, I'll point out that the difference in accuracy between a trained and untrained shooter is on the order of several inches for a target at 7 yards. Being a better shot with regular bullets equates to an untrained shooter's bullets having the diameter of cannonballs, in so far as the ability to hit smaller targets goes.

Thus, the only thing that realistically matters in a self defense situation is how well trained the shooter is. The good shooter could have a .22lr, or a .45acp. They're shooting "cannonballs" either way.

>>64069163 (OP)
battle rifles lost
.45 lost
get over it grandpa

>>64069287
P220

>>64070978
>t. too weak to handle a .45

>>64070978
>"battle rifles lost"
>hes still an ARbabby coping the military is replacing his favorite toy
Get with the times, gramps

>>64069163 (OP)
Sorry sweetie, the science is settled. Now go sell your 45 and get a 9mm like the rest of the big boys.

>>64069163 (OP)
>Energy doesn't matter. Capacity doesn't matter. Physics doesn't matter.
Just throw a big rock at them, you fucking ape.

>>64070999
>Posting a video of your plane with the GPS visible.
Someone could dox you with that info.

>>64069163 (OP)
>Projectile energy does not equate to deadliness.
Would you rather get hit in the chest by a 9mm ballbearing fired from a slingshot, or a 9mm round fired from any gun?

If you're going to get hit by a 9mm bullet, would you rather it be a ball round that goes in and out (i.e. it doesn't unload 100% of its energy into you, it carries some of that energy away with it) or a hollow point that expands and stops (i.e. dumps 100% of its energy into you)?

It seems that energy does matter.

>The average self-defense shooting is over after less than two rounds have been fired.
I'll grant you that if I know in advance that I'm only going to be able to fire a single round, I want the biggest round I can get. The problem is, I'm not confident I'll score a hit with that round ..or the next ..or the next. And therefore, I'd like to have more.

Because see, the absolute worst thing that can happen in any firefight is running out of ammo while the threat still exists. If they were a threat before, now they're a very pissed off threat.

>>64070923
>The perfect .32 at 1450 ft/s
Took mine out yesterday, it's a shrieker out of that shorter barrel but it's a based one.

>>64071431
>would you rather
>a slingshot
These are both ridiculous arguments that don't even warrant a serious reply. My point still stands.

>>64071714
You claimed, "projectile energy does not equate to deadliness."

So I asked you a question in which the projectile mass was the same, but the velocity was different - therefore different energies.

>don't even warrant a serious reply
That's the kind of excuse people make when they're BTFO.

If you had an IQ above 50, you would simply modify your claim. You'd say, "fair point - there is a certain minimum energy needed. But there's also a practical maximum, above which additional energy through higher velocity imparts no meaningful additional lethality" <--- LOOK AT THIS!! I CAN ARGUE YOUR POSITION BETTER THAN YOU CAN BECAUSE IM NOT A RETARD LIKE YOU

jesus christ this is embarrasing for you.

I just carry whatever based on my vibe that day. 9mm? Sure. 380 acp? Yeah. 38 special? Yep. 45? Yerr. The only thing I don't carry is my little 22 and that's because I'm concerned it'll jam when I need to use it, because it has jammed up at the range. I can get a .22 revolver but I'd rather not.

>>64071869
We are talking about handguns, not slingshots. Stay on topic.

Also, Jesus Christ's name is to be capitalized, my Hebrew friend.

>>64069163 (OP)
>The average self-defense shooting is over after less than two rounds have been fired.

So you mean to say 9mm works just fine or what is this contradictory statement?

>>64069163 (OP)
10mm supersedes the 45 because it has very, very slightly less diameter, but you get better sectional density, maximum energy, and magazine capacity. It's like a super optimized 45 that does everything 45 can do just a little bit better. Ammo is often cheaper now too.

>>64071946
200gr & 220gr 10mm mog 45 in every regard.

>>64071946
>>64071959
>sectional density, energy, magazine capacity
It has already been determined that those have nothing to do with real world effectiveness out of a handguns used against human targets.
10mm copers have to be even worse than 9mm users. Every fucking gun that comes out will inevitably be swarmed with "cAn YoU MaKe iT iN 10mM???

>>64071946
I wish .45 gap took off and .45 acp was supplanted with .45 super as the standard

>>64071970
>Every fucking gun that comes out will inevitably be swarmed with "cAn YoU MaKe iT iN 10mM???
And what's wrong with that, anon?
The existence of 45 Super is proof that 45 users understand they're falling behind.

>>64071970
>It has already been determined that those have nothing to do with real world effectiveness out of a handguns used against human targets.
If this was true everyone would use a 2-3 shot .50-.70 caliber blump gun.

>>64069163 (OP)
>Fact: the only way to reliably increase the occurrence of both of these things is a larger diameter bullet.

False. The best way to increase your chance to debilitate is to fire more bullets faster and more accurately. That's why both long guns and pistols standardize to calibers that have lower recoil and acceptable terminal ballistics.

People who don't shoot don't understand that even the best shooters in the world cannot fire 10mm as fast and accurately as 9mm or 5.7. Same with 5.56 vs 7.62 or .308. Hipsters who don't shoot hate hearing this reality, and their rebellion against it has more to do with their aesthetic distaste for modernity than any appreciation for performance. It's doesn't mean it's not fun to blast away with 10mm though.

I'm just going to cc civil defense ammo so entry wounds explode like a Hollywood squib and call it a day

You're all sick people.
I hope you all get cancer. Fuck youse all.
I put a curse upon you all.
Fuck ya
mudda

>>64070990
>Defending Cohen's latest grift
M4A7s on Mars boomer

shotgunchads win again

>>64069163 (OP)
The older I get the more appealing .45 AARP sounds. I believe the 1911ing is inevitable by the time I'm in my 40s.

>>64071986
>45 Super
You could say the same about 38 Super and 9mm.
>>64071993
People did in fact use those back in the day before smokeless powder and the NFA both made large bores unlawful or unnecessary.
>>64071995
>fire more bullets faster and more accurately
>more accurately
As in... a shot which hits the central nervous system? By "more accurate" you must have a definition for where exactly you want the bullet to go.
Here's 10 rounds into center mass at near point blank. And you know what stopped the fight? The shot to the central nervous system. Examples of this with 9mm are all over the place.

>>64072095
>you could say the same thing about .38 super
If it wasnt semi rimmed maybe. Fuckin john browning and his semi rimmed cartridges

>>64069754
>5.56 to 6.8 is dope
Only because at 5.56s' effectiveness range limit 6.8 is still making exit cavities
>9mm and .45
For me the argument is 1300fps vs 1050 and the kind of clothing/bone hit penetration while retaining effect.

I use high cap pistols so I'm not fucked when the bad guy brings friends. The most important factor in a gunfight is having a gun that still shoots when you need it.

>>64072095
>As in... a shot which hits the central nervous system? By "more accurate"

Yeah exactly. Your belief that an extra 2mm of expansion makes the difference is what is erroneous. Volume of fire is what matters. The FBI made the same mistake responding to the North Hollywood shootout, they thought they needed a hotter cartridge with more pen because the 9mm that hit one of the gunmen didn't kill him instantly. But they drew the wrong conclusion because it was the increased amount of 9mm bullets heading downrange that allowed that hit to scored in the first place. The FBI and almost every other police agency in America has since corrected their mistakes. I like .45 and 10mm too but they simply aren't the ideal combat cartridge.

>>64072140
>combat cartridge
This was never about combat. Why bring up the FBI shooting? You're not a federal agency getting involved in prolonged gunfights against military veterans armed with autoloading .223 rifles.

>>64072095
>You could say the same about 38 Super and 9mm.
You could, and would you be wrong to do so? Also, 45 Super is compatible with the same chamber dimensions as 45 so it's not quite equivalent.
>>64072095
>before smokeless powder and the NFA both made large bores unlawful or unnecessary.
Meaning that technological advancement rendered them irrelevant? Hm.

>>64072167
>technological advancements
Yes, for example hollow points. I have no doubt you support the idea of carrying hollow points for self defense, as 9mm FMJ is almost guaranteed to overpenetrate, so you'll be delighted to know that they also exist in .45 ACP, and additionally that .45 ACP will never shrink while a 9mm hollowpoint could absolutely fail to expand.

>>64070923
gib mommy milkies

>>64072163
Combat as in, useful for shooting people. We are talking about terminal ballistics so of course it's relevant.

.40 Smith & Wesson

>>64069387
> An arrow broadhead with the same placement will cause fainting faster than a pistol wound will. Some people actually cannot grasp this concept.

This is a good point. It’s not about energy at all. It’s more about the cross section of the wound channel. Pretty quickly the probability of hitting a vital becomes 1 as there’s only so many straight lines of x diameter that can go through a person while dodging all the vitals. It’s like boring a simple hole inside you vs pressing into and through you a 3 pointed star with a large diamater but still the same area as the hole.

The ideal self defense/short range cartridge is a super long .224 with 3 petals that expand to >1” in diameter. Energy is even irrelevant, so long as there’s enough of a sectional quantity of it to penetrate ~12”. Bet it would suppress to Hollywood quiet levels.

>>64069287
CZ 97B

Also for fun, get one of those Ruger Cowboy Revolvers where you can switch the .45LC cylinder for .45ACP

>>64069163 (OP)
Can't you just some kind of net-gun which shoots a razor wire net to immobilize your assailant?

>>64070939
>This is obviously wrong, why even attempt such a clear lie?
Oh shit lol, in my head 9mm was .4 of an inch wide. It's why .40 Short and Weak always seemed like such a joke to me. I do not know why I thought it.

/k/ niggas watch hours of bodycam footage with 9mm failing to stop and read the Ellifritz study still being like "stoppin powah don't real"

>>64069163 (OP)
All you need is a gen 3 g19 and all your problems will be solved

>>64072040
Lmao they didn't even like them in Afghanistan
>boomer
The first gen SP1 is actual C&R

>>64069163 (OP)
The .45 ACP projectile has a 0.05" wider radius than 9mm. To put it other words, the projectile diameter only matters by your logic if you were within 0.05" of a CNS hit. Expanding ammo changes this somewhat, but that's a function of hollow point design and projectile length, not just width.
What matters is wound channel (temporary and permanent) diameter, and that's controlled by a lot more than caliber. Energy matters more.

>>64069163 (OP)
>Let me guess, you "need" more?
No, I need less

>>64069182
I’m a 9mm fag and I support this.

>>64072312
>ai feet
nice

>>64077251
Yes

>>64077294
nice, post more

>>64069163 (OP)
Carry what you want and stop getting mad that people have other opinions, it doesn't fucking matter. Handguns are defensive weapons and the more you practice the better you'll be. I don't have a problem with 45acp but I can shoot a hell of a lot more 9mm for the same price and it's easy to find.

>>64072163
>why bring up a well documented defensive shooting incident when talking about defensive shooting
>why not just focus on hypotheticals that support my thesis instead

>>64077344
Can't use a search engine yourself lazy ass?

>>64077512
I can, but I want YOU to post them

>>64069287
1911

>>64069287
Get the most eurofaggot wonder 9mm and convert it to .45AlphasCappinPussies

OP doesn't have a clue about terminal ballistics
>the type of ammo used matters the most : 9mm HP will do way more damage than .45 FMJ
>the difference in caliber is negligeable between the two
>velocity only matters for armor penetration. Even the slowest bullets will penetrate human flesh with ease.

>>64070978
Battle rifles are back, intermediate isn't cutting it.
.45 doesn't lose, it IS the game.

>>64077721
>9mmlets when their hollow points expand to barely larger than .45

>>64071869
There is no top end to velocity, no top end to lethality. You grant me unlimited velocity I'll put the sound barrier through you times a bajillion.

>>64075308
What if you shoot a net so fast you dice the motherfucker?

>>64069163 (OP)
What if I need to worry about other offense, huh? Single discipline shooters make me sick.

>>64077459
>posting the edited version
fag

>>64078035
Freddy fell on hard times

>>64069163 (OP)
I increase the area of bullet felt by the target by shooting another bullet quickly and accurately because of low recoil and high capacity. If I can get three 9mm rounds off in the time it takes me to get two .45acp rounds, which is better?

>>64069163 (OP)
>he doesn't cc .454 Casull
Pussy.

>>64077783
>There is no top end to velocity
Well, the speed of light is a top end, but I take your point.

> You grant me unlimited velocity I'll put the sound barrier through you times a bajillion.
Exactly! That is precisely my point!

If you can only hit your target one time, and your options are (a) a standard 45 ACP at typical muzzle velocity or (b) a grain of sand going mach 3 ... the rational choice is the grain of sand.

OP claimed that energy wasn't important. That's simply not true.

"Would you rather get hit by a cannon ball or 9mm" - most people will choose 9mm. "Oh, I forgot to mention! The cannon ball will be thrown by a 7 year old kid; the 9mm will be fired out of a gun"

Energy matters!

>>64078649
3 hurried shots, fuck even 18 hurried shots of a mag dump will never compete with a SINGLE good shot from any caliber. You arent an operator. Every shot that leaves your barrel YOU are responsible for.